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Posted: 12/11/2005 1:43:41 PM EDT
I haven't read the books yet, so bear with me....

What are all of Saruman's soldiers doing buried underground? How'd they get there?

Oh, and why is it that the other two Hobbits weren't immediately decapitated the first time they acted stupid?
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:45:35 PM EDT
What are all of Saruman's soldiers doing buried underground?

I think you may be referring to the Orcs; they are being "spawned", not dug up.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:46:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
I haven't read the books yet, so bear with me....

What are all of Saruman's soldiers doing buried underground? How'd they get there?

They make them out of mud.

Oh, and why is it that the other two Hobbits weren't immediately decapitated the first time they acted stupid?



I assume that is a rhetorical question
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:00:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
I haven't read the books yet, so bear with me....

What are all of Saruman's soldiers doing buried underground? How'd they get there?

Oh, and why is it that the other two Hobbits weren't immediately decapitated the first time they acted stupid?



They (the uruk-hai) are spawned underground.

Saruman wanted them alive (I assume your talking about Pippin and Merry when captured by the uruk-hai...?)
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:01:50 PM EDT
Strictly a movie thing. The books had no mention to anything like that.
JRR did mention they were bred inthe darkness etc. but that was a rhetorical reference, not a literal one.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:05:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 2:05:34 PM EDT by Zaphod]
Oh. Thanks!



As for Pepin and the other little idiot, I'm talking about their incredible ability to ANNOY.

"I know a Frodo Baggins! Right over THERE!"

Idiot.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:05:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
I haven't read the books yet, so bear with me....




Then, I actually envy you.

I wish I could read them for the first time again.

No other experience in science/fiction/fantasy equals it.

Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:06:28 PM EDT
Hobbits were not killed per Sarauman's oders of wanting the "halflings alive and unspoiled."
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:07:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
I haven't read the books yet, so bear with me....




Then, I actually envy you.

I wish I could read them for the first time again.

No other experience in science/fiction/fantasy equals it.




Never figured you for a LOTR fan. Learn something new every day...
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:07:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
I haven't read the books yet, so bear with me....




Then, I actually envy you.

I wish I could read them for the first time again.

No other experience in science/fiction/fantasy equals it.




<Rocked back in my chair>

Thay're THAT good?

I read "The Hobbit" way, WAY back in high school. Is the LOTR better?
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:08:48 PM EDT
Right, there were quotes from characters in the novel like "all the orcs that were ever spawned", but since the orcs were the decendants of Elves that had been taken captive in the Elder Days (for Melkor could not create life himself, only Illuvitar the One could), this is only rhetotic.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:14:28 PM EDT
And don't forget that the Orcs thought that Pipin was Frodo in many parts of the books. LOTR and sort of in the movies, Pipin was supposed to look almost exactly like Frodo, they were cousin BTW. They wanted Frodo alive because if he was dead, the ring could be found by the orcs or the uruk-hai and they probably would have kept it for themselves causing even more problems.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:17:17 PM EDT
You rang for the chief LOTR nerd?

Sarumans troops (Uruk Hai) were sent to waylay hobbits and return them to Saruman as he had guessed they might be bearing the One Ring. The orders were specific, no spoiling and no searching either... intact and unspoilt. No touchy on pain of death. So as stroppy as the Hobbits got, no touchy. Return by the fastest road was the plan of the Uruk leader, Ugluk. Grishnakh was of the soldiery of Sauron, and not an Uruk, he was under the orders of one of the Ringwraiths and crossed over the River.

And as far as the bull-crap that idiot hack Jackson made up about orcs "spawning" he is just a jackass. Orcs were created from Elves that were broken and perverted by the Great Enemy, Morgoth Bauglir, of whom Sauron was but a servant and captain. And so it follows that as Orcs are in essence broken/perverted/changed Elves... they reproduce after that manner. Morgoth could not create life of his own will, but Elves he could break and change... and so he did. The Elves know from whence the Orcs come and have never forgotten that, and their war with the Orcs was long and bitter indeed. But those facts never stood in the way of that drooling ass Jackson and his illiterate wife and writing partner Boyens. They were making "their version" of the LOTR, not a faithful film version of the Books.

Let me know what else you are curious about... I am so full of this info its ridiculous



Dram(TheLOTRgeekinchar­ge)out
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:21:57 PM EDT
The books give no clear description of how orcs reproduced. IIRC, one of the appendices says only that "it is believed they were spawned", but says nothing else about it.

Whatever the method, we can be certain it was disgusting.

The movie makes out Merry and Pippin to be much more foolish than they are in the books. Pippin does toss a pebble into a deep hole in Moria, but it doesn't drag five hundred pounds of armor and carrion with it. (Gandalf does say, "Throw yourself in next time", though.) Pippin also looks into the palantir, but that's about it as far as outright stupidity.

But an action movie needs some light moments, and Tolkien didn't write many...with this exception (IMHO):



'This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of Denethor,' said Hama, stepping swiftly before the doors and barring the way. His sword was now in his hand and the point towards the strangers.

'This is idle talk,' said Gandalf. 'Needless is Theoden's demand, but it is useless to refuse. A king will have his way in his own hall, be it folly or wisdom.'

'Truly,' said Aragorn. 'And I would do as the master of the house bade me, were this only a woodman's cot, if I bore now any sword but Anduril.'

'Whatever its name may be,' said Hama, 'here you shall lay it, if you would not fight alone against all the men in Edoras.'



Brisk322's translation:
Hama: Look, pal, even if you were King - which you ain't - you ain't King here.
Gandalf: Oh, fer pete's sake. Look, Theoden doesn't have anything to fear from us, but whatever.
Aragorn: Yeah, whatever. But this isn't just any sword, this is ANDURIL, and I WILL NOT have some two-bit coat-check stick it on a shelf.
Hama: And THIS episode of "Yeah, Whatever" is brought to you by the rest of the kingdom. You check your piece, pal, or you'll have me and everyone else around to deal with."

Well, I thought it was a funny scene.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:24:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Oh. Thanks!



As for Pepin and the other little idiot, I'm talking about their incredible ability to ANNOY.

"I know a Frodo Baggins! Right over THERE!"




Even in the books Merry and Pippen are pretty annoying and dumb until about when they meet the Ents. Then they start to "grow up" and become useful. They continue to do the occasional dumb ass thing, like with the seeing stone (can't spell that). But late in the story they become pretty good soldiers and are instrumental during the retaking of the Shire.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:26:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
I haven't read the books yet, so bear with me....




Then, I actually envy you.

I wish I could read them for the first time again.

No other experience in science/fiction/fantasy equals it.




<Rocked back in my chair>

Thay're THAT good?

I read "The Hobbit" way, WAY back in high school. Is the LOTR better?



I personally liked The Hobbit better. The Hobbit is a nice little story compared to LOTR, which is just a sprawling epic with a huge back story that I didn't really get all of until the movies came out.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:41:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

<Rocked back in my chair>

Thay're THAT good?

I read "The Hobbit" way, WAY back in high school. Is the LOTR better?



"The Hobbit" is a completely different kind of book. Not even in the same league.

And, yes, they're that good.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:55:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brisk322:
The books give no clear description of how orcs reproduced. IIRC, one of the appendices says only that "it is believed they were spawned", but says nothing else about it.

Whatever the method, we can be certain it was disgusting.

The movie makes out Merry and Pippin to be much more foolish than they are in the books. Pippin does toss a pebble into a deep hole in Moria, but it doesn't drag five hundred pounds of armor and carrion with it. (Gandalf does say, "Throw yourself in next time", though.) Pippin also looks into the palantir, but that's about it as far as outright stupidity.

But an action movie needs some light moments, and Tolkien didn't write many...with this exception (IMHO):




'This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of Denethor,' said Hama, stepping swiftly before the doors and barring the way. His sword was now in his hand and the point towards the strangers.

'This is idle talk,' said Gandalf. 'Needless is Theoden's demand, but it is useless to refuse. A king will have his way in his own hall, be it folly or wisdom.'

'Truly,' said Aragorn. 'And I would do as the master of the house bade me, were this only a woodman's cot, if I bore now any sword but Anduril.'

'Whatever its name may be,' said Hama, 'here you shall lay it, if you would not fight alone against all the men in Edoras.'



Brisk322's translation:
Hama: Look, pal, even if you were King - which you ain't - you ain't King here.
Gandalf: Oh, fer pete's sake. Look, Theoden doesn't have anything to fear from us, but whatever.
Aragorn: Yeah, whatever. But this isn't just any sword, this is ANDURIL, and I WILL NOT have some two-bit coat-check stick it on a shelf.
Hama: And THIS episode of "Yeah, Whatever" is brought to you by the rest of the kingdom. You check your piece, pal, or you'll have me and everyone else around to deal with."

Well, I thought it was a funny scene.



Another wisecrack from Sam IIRC "If this is shelter, then one wall and no roof make a house!"
I like that one.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:00:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Oh. Thanks!



As for Pepin Pippin (actually Peregrine)and the other little idiotMerry (actually Merriweather)( both of them having last name Tuck), I'm talking about their incredible ability to ANNOY.

"I know a Frodo Baggins! Right over THERE!"

Idiot.


the answer to the main question is that it is in the script....
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:01:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 3:03:52 PM EDT by Dramborleg]
Brisk,

I did not find the scene to be humorous, but that is me.

For Aragorn to lay aside the sword of Elendil at the behest of any was an unheard of thing. The Kingdom of Rohan was a gift to the heirs of Eorl the Young by Cirion the Steward of Gondor. And to have the heir of Elendil the High King return and be bidden to lay aside his blade at the door was a dread insult and provocation. But, such was the wisdom in the spirit of Aragorn, that even this thing he would do... were it any other blade. So, he laid a curse on any who might touch or draw the blade. And make no mistake, Aragorn was the man who might do just that. His forefather, Elendil the Tall, laid a curse on the Mountain People who would not come to his aid in the Battle of the Last Alliance... and they withered and died to the last. It was they who inhabited the Paths of the Dead. According to Elrond, Aragorn was more like to Elendil himself in mind and body than any heirs before him, and he knew them all.

The hobbits are just out of, or nearly out of, their tweens, other than Frodo who is around 50, ... somewhere around 32 or so where hobbits were then recognized to be full adults. They are of the landed gentry in the Shire... more precisely... their fathers were the Thain and Master of the Hall respectively. Upperclass young country gentlemen by any stretch of the imagination, whereas Sam is definitely of the people. Do not think Tolkien a snob though, with all these well off hobbits... JRR drew Sam as a representative of the solid sturdy and unflichingly loyal lower middle class men that have always been Englands backbone. Sam was his ode to these unsung men who bore the brunt of war for England.

Merry and Pippen were terrors as younger hobbits, as rich young men are wont to be, but were rapidly reaching maturity. Light hearted and merry, but NOT the idiots they were portrayed as by that swine Jackson. Not by a long shot.

Dram out
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:12:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brisk322:
The books give no clear description of how orcs reproduced. IIRC, one of the appendices says only that "it is believed they were spawned", but says nothing else about it.

Whatever the method, we can be certain it was disgusting.

The movie makes out Merry and Pippin to be much more foolish than they are in the books. Pippin does toss a pebble into a deep hole in Moria, but it doesn't drag five hundred pounds of armor and carrion with it. (Gandalf does say, "Throw yourself in next time", though.) Pippin also looks into the palantir, but that's about it as far as outright stupidity.

But an action movie needs some light moments, and Tolkien didn't write many...with this exception (IMHO):





'This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of Denethor,' said Hama, stepping swiftly before the doors and barring the way. His sword was now in his hand and the point towards the strangers.

'This is idle talk,' said Gandalf. 'Needless is Theoden's demand, but it is useless to refuse. A king will have his way in his own hall, be it folly or wisdom.'

'Truly,' said Aragorn. 'And I would do as the master of the house bade me, were this only a woodman's cot, if I bore now any sword but Anduril.'

'Whatever its name may be,' said Hama, 'here you shall lay it, if you would not fight alone against all the men in Edoras.'



Brisk322's translation:
Hama: Look, pal, even if you were King - which you ain't - you ain't King here.
Gandalf: Oh, fer pete's sake. Look, Theoden doesn't have anything to fear from us, but whatever.
Aragorn: Yeah, whatever. But this isn't just any sword, this is ANDURIL, and I WILL NOT have some two-bit coat-check stick it on a shelf.
Hama: And THIS episode of "Yeah, Whatever" is brought to you by the rest of the kingdom. You check your piece, pal, or you'll have me and everyone else around to deal with."

Well, I thought it was a funny scene.



Hey, if you'll redo the whole book, even I'd read it...

I actually listened to the last two on DVD, and really found them to be quite enjoyable. Loved the movies, though!
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:13:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Brisk,

<snip>

Dram out



Very well said, Dram.

You are obviously a true LOTR nerd.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:43:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 3:46:17 PM EDT by Duffy]
Merry and Pipin had done their deeds in the book. If Pipin hadn't looked in the Seeing Stone, Gadalf would have wanted to, and revealed himself before all was ready, so he did good there. Aragorn realized what he had suspected (that it was a Seeing Stone), and revealed himself, strove with Sauron and wrested the Stone from Sauron. Sauron saw the blade that was broken was remade, and Elendil's heir walked this earth still, made haste and started the war before he was ready.
Pipin volunteered to be the Tower guard, and saved Faramir's life when his father would have burned him.
Merry stabbed the Witch King in the knee with his sword he got from Barrow Down, made for the war between the Westernese and the Witch King, and enabled Eowin to kill him.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:45:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Duffy:
Merry and Pipin had done their deeds in the book. If Pipin hadn't looked in the Seeing Stone, Gadalf would have wanted to, and revealed himself before all was ready, so he did good there. Aragorn realized what he had suspected (that it was a Seeing Stone), and revealed himself, strove with Sauron and wrested the Stone from Sauron. Sauron saw the blade that was broken was remade, and Elendil's heir walked this earth still, made haste and started the war before he was ready.
Pipin volunteered to be the Tower guard, and saved Faramir's life when his father would have burned him.
Merry killed the Witch King.



And thereby, Duffy earns his LOTR Nerd Credentials also.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:47:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 4:00:06 PM EDT by Duffy]
Ah you were too quick for me
I edited my post to say that Merry helped Eowin kill the Witch King, but did not kill him by himself

I think all who read the book can agree that Jackson made changes that were unnecessary and wrong. It was Boromir that threw rocks at the dark water before the Dwarf gate at Moria, it was Frodo that said "Why do you do that, Boromir? Do not disturb the water!" Pipin did not do it. Elves coming to the aid of Rohan when they were besieged? Legolas only said he wished there were some Elf archers.
The dead only helped the Grey Company gain the ships and eliminate a threat coming from the river, but did not go to the main battle themselves, their oath was fulfilled and released. There are so many that made me roll my eyes.
The omission of the Barrow Down and Tom Bombadil was regretable, they could have cut out most of the sucky lovy dovy scenes and put those in the movies instead.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:20:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Brisk322:
The books give no clear description of how orcs reproduced. IIRC, one of the appendices says only that "it is believed they were spawned", but says nothing else about it.



It is made quite clear in the Silmarillion how the race of the Orcs was created.

Now THAT was a damn good book, though it would take 20 movies to do it all justice: The Creation, The Fall of Melkor, the Trees of Light, Feanor and the creation of the Silmarils, the Kinslaying, the Exiles, Turin the unfortunate, the Five Battles of Beleriand, Beren and Luthien, The Ride of the Valar, the Bending of the World, the Founding of Numenor, the Foundering of Numenor, the Last Aliance...20 movies at least!
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:45:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Originally Posted By Brisk322:
The books give no clear description of how orcs reproduced. IIRC, one of the appendices says only that "it is believed they were spawned", but says nothing else about it.



It is made quite clear in the Silmarillion how the race of the Orcs was created.



Created, yes. How they maintained their race after the breaking of Thangorodrim and especially after Sauron's loss of the Ring isn't as clear. But you are correct on that point.


Now THAT was a damn good book, though it would take 20 movies to do it all justice: The Creation, The Fall of Melkor, the Trees of Light, Feanor and the creation of the Silmarils, the Kinslaying, the Exiles, Turin the unfortunate, the Five Battles of Beleriand, Beren and Luthien, The Ride of the Valar, the Bending of the World, the Founding of Numenor, the Foundering of Numenor, the Last Aliance...20 movies at least!


(sigh) LOTR was once regarded as unfilmable....

To Dramborleg: True, true, Aragorn was being very gracious and such. I've often read that passage from Hama's point of view (and, let's face it, Hama probably wasn't especially well-versed in Gondorian history, and what training he had in doorkeeping was probably, "Everyone who isn't of Rohan has to check their weapons. No exceptions.") But your point is correct and well-stated.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:51:15 PM EDT
Jeez. I can't even pronounce these names you guys throw around so handily.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:53:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Jeez. I can't even pronounce these names you guys throw around so handily.



I've read the books 7 or 8 times, and I can't either.

We are in the company of real LOTR Uber-Nerds.

Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:16:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 6:19:54 PM EDT by Dramborleg]
To all:

If I may lay claim to anything, I would say that I am the Uber-Nerd perhaps even Over-Nerd concerning Prof Tolkiens universe.

I have spent much of my formative years wandering in Tolkiens created world, marvelous and deep in its complexity and absolute "reality" I suppose.

The Tolkien universe dovetailed terribly well with my youthful ideals of a higher purpose and views of absolute right and wrong.

I ran into the books at a critical and highly imaginative time in my young life and they became the stuff of my dreams, made real and put on paper.

What a wonderful coincidence that made me ask my Mom if I she would buy the books for me at K-mart. Still have them in perfect condition too. I wont say how many times I have read them either


Brisk:

How do you mean "not clear"? If they are broken and changed Elves... they are still able to reproduce after their original purpose... ie male and female. Do you not remember that Orcs were described as being comprised of different tribes? How do you have a tribal society without reproductive members?

The armor of the Orcs was badly represented in the movies also. It is made plain that Orcs can produce armor and weapons of worth, but rather unlovely. As is evidenced by the wavy edged dagger of Grishnakh that the Merry and Pipping severed their bonds with.. it had a leering head carved on the pommel. So, however debased, the Orcs even had art after a sense. So Jackson was an idiot yet again with his junk armor/weaponry that the orcs used.


Zaphod,

Its a wonderful world to immerse yourself into... clean escapism at its ultimate and finest. There will never be another pseudo world like it....

If you guys cannot pronounce something, go to the Appendices at the back of Return of the King for pronunciation guides. The rules are fairly straightforward



Dram out : )

Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:19:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Jeez. I can't even pronounce these names you guys throw around so handily.



I've read the books 7 or 8 times, and I can't either.

We are in the company of real LOTR Uber-Nerds.




I read the books (including the Hobbit and Silmarillion) at least once ever 3 years for the last 30 years… I always find something new.

I have unabridged audio books of The Lord of the Rings trilogy, The Hobbit, and Silmarillion,… around 100 hours of audio in total.

The Silmarillion has come to be my favorite due to its depth.

As bad as some of you nerds are I know someone worse… he named his daughter Luthien Tinúviel.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:21:27 PM EDT
Thats awesome !!!
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:27:46 PM EDT
Orcs were made from Elves. I remember reading that Melkor captured Elves in his wars with them, he tormented and corrupted them to his evil purpose. Also remember something about capturing the Elves when they were still sleeping. Not the sleep we do at night lol, Elves were "first born" while other children of Ilúvatar (Man, Dwarves) still slept.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:30:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Thats awesome !!!



The Silmarillion is really something to listen to… the writing is stunning when read by Martin Shaw.

I highly recommend it to anyone who enjoyed the book.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:31:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Duffy:
Orcs were made from Elves. I remember reading that Melkor captured Elves in his wars with them, he tormented and corrupted them to his evil purpose. Also remember something about capturing the Elves when they were still sleeping. Not the sleep we do at night lol, Elves were "first born" while other children of Ilúvatar (Man, Dwarves) still slept.



Yes, when Elves first appeared on earth, some got lost while others banded togeather. The ones who were lost were captured by Melkor, tortured, perverted, and became orcs over time.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:39:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PsyWarrior:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Oh. Thanks!



As for Pepin Pippin (actually Peregrine)and the other little idiotMerry (actually Merriweather Meriadoc)( both of them having last name Tuck), I'm talking about their incredible ability to ANNOY.

"I know a Frodo Baggins! Right over THERE!"

Idiot.


the answer to the main question is that it is in the script....

Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:48:30 PM EDT

Merry was a Brandybuck and Pippin was a Took.

Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:50:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Duffy:
Elves coming to the aid of Rohan when they were besieged? Legolas only said he wished there were some Elf archers.



I had some sympathy for Jackson there. As he explains in the commentary, the elves in the book were engaged in combat of their own, and couldn't make it to Helm's Deep. But that all happens off-stage in the books, and you couldn't really make sense of the role of the elves as allies and combatants unless it happened on screen. Otherwise it makes the elves appear as a bunch of effete bystanders, the Third Age's equivalent of the French.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 7:06:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stealth:
Merry was a Brandybuck and Pippin was a Took.




And Jackson robbed them of their chance to deal with Sharkey at the end.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 7:18:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Stealth:
Merry was a Brandybuck and Pippin was a Took.




And Jackson robbed them of their chance to deal with Sharkey at the end.



And someone who read the story would realize how important that part was. "everything that you have done up till now has been to prepare you for what lies ahead."

But aside from that, Merry and Pippen must have been included to show the valour that can come from people who sometimes seem to have little use otherwise. Merry played a huge role in killing the Witch King of Angmar, and Pippen saved Faramir's life. They also played a role in instigating the Ents to go to war with Saruman and recapture Isengard.

As for the Orcs, in The Fellowship of The Ring, Saruman explains to Ugluk how the Orcs came into being.

The movies were good, but they are a poor substitute for reading the books. There is so much story there it's incredible. Tolkien literally thought of everything.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 7:31:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
I haven't read the books yet, so bear with me....




Then, I actually envy you.

I wish I could read them for the first time again.

No other experience in science/fiction/fantasy equals it.




+1

I have read them a bunch of times too.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 7:39:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Stealth:
Merry was a Brandybuck and Pippin was a Took.




And Jackson robbed them of their chance to deal with Sharkey at the end.



All the other missed scenes in the movie I can deal with. Ya gotta keep the movie under 5 hours anyway . But the Scouring of the Shire will be very much missed. I was looking forward to that part.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 7:46:43 PM EDT
Dramborleg, even you must realize that Jackson, just like every Hollyweird director, MUST interject his preconceptions and political beliefs in his works.... Dehumanizing an enemy is the oldest trick in the book... Of course the Uruk-hai would be senseless and without culture/art... They're the enemy! Why spend time developing their character/culture/motives when they're really just pawns for The Eye and Sarumon? (Besides, consider the MASSIVE production costs already involved!!!)

Overall, I find the movies to be high quality interpretation of Tolkein's works (the director's editions)...
Obvious, plot non-essential artistic liberties were taken... of course.... Had the books been followed literally, we'd have been in for 3 movies of at LEAST 5 hours each... with times that would have bored all but the most hard-core fans.

Rumor has it Jackson is preparing to film The Hobbit.... I anxiously await seeing his visualization on the screen.... I honestly see it either being a 4.5 hour film, or split into 2 parts... (tough with today's box office attention span.)
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 7:53:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 8:01:35 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
What are all of Saruman's soldiers doing buried underground?

I think you may be referring to the Orcs; they are being "spawned", not dug up.




I think that was the case in the movie but I thought Orcs used to be a type of Elven race that was cursed
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 8:01:14 PM EDT
I thought Peter Jackson's interpretation of the Battle of Helm's deep was better than the original.

Link Posted: 12/11/2005 8:24:42 PM EDT
Sci-Fi Nut,

Sorry sir, Jagoff... I mean Jackson... butchered the actual MEANING of the book and crapped on the NOBILITY of the Kings of Men ie Numenoreans by turning Aragorn into an unabashed facking PUSSY.

Jacksons recurring theme is the WEAKNESS of men. Not the NOBILITY that the Numenoreans who did not fall under the sway of Sauron possessed. But noooooo... cant have MEN appear as NOBLE and WISE in these degenerate times we live in.

The Numeanoreans were a failing race and doomed to die out, yet the High lineage of the House of Elendil was renewed with the wedding of Aragorn to Arwen Undomiel. The second co-mingling of the strains immortal and mortal...

NONE of this was in those movies.... it was neutered and hollywooded into shiite.

And NO it would not have taken very long to set up who the Numenoreans were or how they came to be exiled. Washing up on the shores of a Middle Earth mostly under the sway of Black Numenoreans and Saurons minions.... casting back the Darkness and bringing order and light to the benighted denizens of Middle Earth.

The keeping of the Ring was due to ONE THING... the evil will of Sauron was white hot within the Ring when Isildur cut it from the hand of Sauron with the hiltshard of Narsil. And then and there was Isildurs fate sealed. He was a fearless, proud, and mighty man... and Saurons spirit within the Ring of Power bewitched his native good sense to not do that which was required... cast the Ring into the fire nigh at hand.

Jackson crapped on Isildur like he was a nobody and a weak willed spoiled brat. Not as the mighty scion of the House of Elros that he surely was. Isildur it is who essayed alone into Armenelos to steal a fruit from the Tree in the Courts of the King... being gravely wounded in that venture. He fought alone against the guards of Sauron and thru him alone was a descendant of that eldest of trees saved... a feat that is unequaled and considered utterly impossible to fulfill.

Yeah, Isildur weak... right.

The true sin of the Numenorean race was in rejecting the gift of Iluvatar, which is death and release from the burden of life, and the lust for the gift that the first born, the Elves possessed. Too close were the Numenoreans in stature of mind and body to the Elves, and yet mortal still in the end. So they rose in power and might... and so too they fell, a victim of ultimate hubris.



Dramborleg out
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 8:40:29 PM EDT
Maybe so, but LotR (films and books) isn't primarily about the Numenoreans; it's about the One Ring and the fate of those who come into its orbit, and either reject its false allure, or choose to fall under the Ring's influence and lust after the Power it will bring them. The story is about the choices people of free will make, for good or ill.

Tolkien supposedly detested allegory, but the making of choices certainly is a recurring Christian theme in the story arc.

The "backstory" of the Fall of Numenor is interesting, but hardly the main thrust of the story.


Doc H.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 8:44:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:

The Numeanoreans were a failing race and doomed to die out, yet the High lineage of the House of Elendil was renewed with the wedding of Aragorn to Arwen Undomiel. The second co-mingling of the strains immortal and mortal...



Third co-mingling.

(1) Beren (man) and Luthien (elf/maiar)
(2) Tuor (man) and Idril (elf)
(3) Aragon (man) and Arwen (elf)

Link Posted: 12/11/2005 8:47:15 PM EDT
Third comingling


Busted
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 9:03:44 PM EDT
DocH

Sorry,

IMHO you are wrong.

The book is NOT about the Ring.

It is about the restoration of the Kings of Men to their throne and the defeat of Sauron, the ancient enemy. It is a chronicle of the events that caused the Third Age to end, the Elves to finally forsake Middle Earth and the ascent of Man to primacy as the other kindreds fade and are no more.

If you are big on the movie, yeah, you might take that idea and run with it being about the Ring. But it is not. IMHO.

The Ring is SAURON, it his will and his malice concentrated and forged into an object. It is the power of a mighty denizen of Middle Earth, Sauron the Maia, minion of Morgoth.

So, no... it not about false power... the Ring possessed much of the native strength of an angelic being who was indeed mighty... moreso than any remaining on the face of Middle Earth.

And again, I say no to your hypothesis that people, other than Saruman the white, lust after the ring for power. Boromir was a mighty captain of his people, and sought for a tool to restore Gondor and defeat Mordor and thereby save his people. He did not wish for the Ring to be cast away and was secure in his pride that he might wield it for the good of all. His problem was his IGNORANCE of the true nature and power contained in the Ring. Moron wanted to dabble with the SPIRIT OF SAURON, and think he could get away with it scot free.

Wrong.

Anyway, that is my opinion for whatever it is worth.

Dram out

Link Posted: 12/11/2005 9:36:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Sci-Fi Nut,

Sorry sir, Jagoff... I mean Jackson... butchered the actual MEANING of the book and crapped on the NOBILITY of the Kings of Men ie Numenoreans by turning Aragorn into an unabashed facking PUSSY.



I agree 100%

In the books, Aragorn knew that his destiny was to take the throne of Gondor and was not afraid to embrace it. He was just waiting for the right time to do so. Also, Aragorn never wanted to let Arwen go to the west, and she never attempted to do so. In the movies Aragorn did not want to fulfill his destiny and chose a life of exile and broke off his relationship with his future queen. I thought that that these two plot lines cheapened the character of Aragorn in the movies and portrayed him as more of a coward than a hero.

Also, in the book Aragorn kept Narsil with him at all times even before it was reforged because this sword was his birthright. By the time the fellowship left Rivendale Aragorn had had the sword reforged since he knew that he was embarking on the path that would return him to the throne or Gondor. He did not need to have Elrond come and push him towards his destiny as was portrayed in the movies. Aragorn was regal figure through out the books, not some exiled mercenary.
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