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Posted: 12/9/2005 7:55:44 PM EDT
Have there been any actual cases that demonstrate the effectiveness (or ineffectiveness) of the FiveseveN in a hostile engagement? Translation - Has anyone been plugged with one of these things yet?
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:56:57 PM EDT
I think the guys at CMMg may killed a couple of deer with one.

IIRC shot quick kills
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:57:21 PM EDT
A little off topic, but I just learned that there is a CA legal version. Still not interested.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 8:03:53 PM EDT
I think cops in TN or TX (starts with a "T") shot somebody with it.

He also got shot by a lot of other things though.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 8:04:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 8:05:49 PM EDT by cluster]
thread needs a pic..eta...

wow that s big pic..

make it a link instead... pic
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 8:05:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:
I think cops in TN or TX (starts with a "T") shot somebody with it.

He also got shot by a lot of other things though.



The wording made me spit some soda.


- BG
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 8:06:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:
thread needs a pic..


www.praxagora.com/lunde/wallpaper/fn57usg-left-flat-hi.jpg



Don't you have a bigger one?
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 9:51:23 PM EDT
Some terrorists who took over the Japanese embassy in Peru were offed with P90s a couple years ago, I believe.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 9:55:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cnorton:
A little off topic, but I just learned that there is a CA legal version. Still not interested.



Shoots 8mm plastic pellets??
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 9:56:44 PM EDT
I don't have any firsthand data.....yet.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 9:57:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:

Originally Posted By cnorton:
A little off topic, but I just learned that there is a CA legal version. Still not interested.



Shoots 8mm plastic pellets??




pellets are too violent. It shoots rainbows and puppy dogs.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 9:58:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Some terrorists who took over the Japanese embassy in Peru were offed with P90s a couple years ago, I believe.


that's the only case I heard of and that shit is classified
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:00:59 PM EDT
It has killed people, but so too has .22lr. The scientific testing, IIRC, shows a wide wound path, but not deep enough for FBI standards.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:04:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
It has killed people, but so too has .22lr. The scientific testing, IIRC, shows a wide wound path, but not deep enough for FBI standards.




Actually I think it is just the opposite. Very deep penetration without any siginificant wound path.

It is what it is. Something that can punch armor and recoils like a 9mm meaning you can carry it in compact weapons like handguns and SMGs.

If you got a plane or busload of terrorists and hostages and the bad guys are wearing vests then THIS IS the tool for the job.

Battlefield, possibly one of the worst selections you could make.

General carry, certainly better options exist.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:05:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By dport:
It has killed people, but so too has .22lr. The scientific testing, IIRC, shows a wide wound path, but not deep enough for FBI standards.




Actually I think it is just the opposite. Very deep penetration without any siginificant wound path.

It is what it is. Something that can punch armor and recoils like a 9mm meaning you can carry it in compact weapons like handguns and SMGs.

If you got a plane or busload of terrorists and hostages and the bad guys are wearing vests then THIS IS the tool for the job.

Battlefield, possibly one of the worst selections you could make.

General carry, certainly better options exist.


The data I've seen says the close to inch long bullet, manages to turn sideways, but runs out of steam early, ie not enough momentum.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:07:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By dport:
It has killed people, but so too has .22lr. The scientific testing, IIRC, shows a wide wound path, but not deep enough for FBI standards.




Actually I think it is just the opposite. Very deep penetration without any siginificant wound path.

It is what it is. Something that can punch armor and recoils like a 9mm meaning you can carry it in compact weapons like handguns and SMGs.

If you got a plane or busload of terrorists and hostages and the bad guys are wearing vests then THIS IS the tool for the job.

Battlefield, possibly one of the worst selections you could make.

General carry, certainly better options exist.


The data I've seen says the close to inch long bullet, manages to turn sideways, but runs out of steam early, ie not enough momentum.


is this data for the civilian stuff or the restricted LEO stuff
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:17:27 PM EDT
All the data I've seen is for the SS190 not the SS192.
From the NATO testing. Remember 2.54cm per inch:

(U) = Unprotected target
(P) = Protected target

Gelatin block characterization for the 5.7mm:
Begins yawing (U): 2-8cm
Maximum Penetration (U): 26-27cm
Begins yawing (P): 3cm
Maximum Penetration (P): 12-16cm


The Max Penetration for the unprotected target is under 11 inches. For the protected target it's even worse at less than 7 inches.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:22:47 PM EDT
DocGKR says of it:


The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum.



www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000050
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:24:37 PM EDT
Col Young from Gunsite told me at 250 class when the P90 came up that Huston PD used them for a while, and the one shooting they had with it, they had to put 20 some odd rounds into the bad guy before he stopped moving aggressively.

Unknown if they were using the penetrator rounds, or hollow-points or what not.

I'll stick with my M4gery.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:25:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Followthehollow:

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:

Originally Posted By cnorton:
A little off topic, but I just learned that there is a CA legal version. Still not interested.



Shoots 8mm plastic pellets??




pellets are too violent. It shoots rainbows and puppy dogs.



No that is the San Fran legal version. The rest of Cali isn't quite there yet.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:30:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 10:31:09 PM EDT by remedy]
The advantage I find with my FiveSeven is superior accuracy, long-range capability without even need of a scope (it is dead-flat out to 100-150 yds), and very little recoil, enabling multiple shot follow-up with very high accuracy.

If you can shoot someone in the head or vitals multiple times, with the ability to also penetrate up to level IIa armor (with SS192, SS195LF), then you have yourself a good gun.

I've done testing with my FiveSeven and I've found it a worthy weapon. It's all about shot placement anyway, which people seem to constantly forget.

The FiveSeven and P90 are used for armor-penetration and accuracy, in a very light and compact package, which is why SF and SWAT teams choose these weapons for operations. Check FiveSevenForum.com there is a list of US departments using this gun now for carry, and the P90 for officer rifle and/or SWAT, and it is growing.

- rem
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:32:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 10:39:47 PM EDT by Mauser101]

Originally Posted By cnorton:
A little off topic, but I just learned that there is a CA legal version. Still not interested.



Wouldn't a CA legal version just be passing the drop test and 10round mags?

Can't say as I'm interested either, but not because I wouldn't like to have a 5.7. I just don't see the point in getting one without neutered mags. Out in Cali it makes good sense to go larger caliber with your handguns because you won't benefit from increased capacity on something smaller. Might as well go with a .40 or .45.

EDIT: Doing some looking and it seems that the slightly older version of the 5.7 with the oddly shaped trigger guard is now 'restricted', or atelast that's what Impact Guns is saying. The newer straight trigger guard version is they only one they are selling to civys.

Anybody know the reasoning on this?

EDIT2: Ah, I'm seeing that newer models have magazine disconnects on them. I friggin hate magazine disconnects. You don't get anymore cool videos of DEA agents shooting themselves in the leg.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 5:46:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
The FiveSeven and P90 are used for armor-penetration and accuracy, in a very light and compact package, which is why SF and SWAT teams choose these weapons for operations. Check FiveSevenForum.com there is a list of US departments using this gun now for carry, and the P90 for officer rifle and/or SWAT, and it is growing.

- rem



Please post that list over here. When you do, please note that Dallas PD doesnt use either the P90 or thefive seven, and neither does Ft Worth.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:31:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
All the data I've seen is for the SS190 not the SS192.
From the NATO testing. Remember 2.54cm per inch:

(U) = Unprotected target
(P) = Protected target

Gelatin block characterization for the 5.7mm:
Begins yawing (U): 2-8cm
Maximum Penetration (U): 26-27cm
Begins yawing (P): 3cm
Maximum Penetration (P): 12-16cm


The Max Penetration for the unprotected target is under 11 inches. For the protected target it's even worse at less than 7 inches.



11" of penetration is bad, and 7" is worse? Come on. You only need something like 1.5" of penetration to get to the vital organs. Besides, I haven't seen too many people that are a foot deep at the chest. How much penetrations does the FBI need?
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:36:12 PM EDT
The reason the minimum is 12 inches is because it simulates the possibility of an angled shot, a shot where an arm or hand might be in the way.

Zhukov can explain it in better detail than I can, send him an IM.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:43:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Come on. You only need something like 1.5" of penetration to get to the vital organs.



'12-16 inches of penetration' does not literally mean that a given bullet will travel 12"-16" through a human torso, but rather, through calibrated ballistic gelatin. Why? Because it's tough to find enough human torsos to do ballistics tests on, and the FBI determined that 12"-16" penetration in calibrated gelatin produces optimal wounding in humans.

Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:45:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:46:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mauser101:
EDIT: Doing some looking and it seems that the slightly older version of the 5.7 with the oddly shaped trigger guard is now 'restricted', or atelast that's what Impact Guns is saying. The newer straight trigger guard version is they only one they are selling to civys.

Anybody know the reasoning on this?

EDIT2: Ah, I'm seeing that newer models have magazine disconnects on them. I friggin hate magazine disconnects. You don't get anymore cool videos of DEA agents shooting themselves in the leg.



Weird... I just bought one of the IOM styles last week (with the first-generation style trigger guard).

It has a mag disconnect too, even though it's an older model. Looks easy enough to defeat, though, just a bar through the magazine well towards the top, right side.

I found the newer style a ltitle uncomfortable, and liked the size and shape of the magazine release and safety more on the older style.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:47:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By dport:
All the data I've seen is for the SS190 not the SS192.
From the NATO testing. Remember 2.54cm per inch:

(U) = Unprotected target
(P) = Protected target

Gelatin block characterization for the 5.7mm:
Begins yawing (U): 2-8cm
Maximum Penetration (U): 26-27cm
Begins yawing (P): 3cm
Maximum Penetration (P): 12-16cm


The Max Penetration for the unprotected target is under 11 inches. For the protected target it's even worse at less than 7 inches.



11" of penetration is bad, and 7" is worse? Come on. You only need something like 1.5" of penetration to get to the vital organs. Besides, I haven't seen too many people that are a foot deep at the chest. How much penetrations does the FBI need?



You should really go over and read about penetration on tactical forums. There is a link already on this thread. They explain it better than I could. I think 12 or 13 inches of penetration is the minumum acceptable penetration depth for a round.
There is no doubt that this could kill you, but it's effectiveness over a wide variety of scenarios is duious.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:51:13 PM EDT
Doesn't the Secret Service use them? I imagine in case the target is armored?

G

PS - soft armor isn't really that hard to defeat, you just keep shooting it until you "puff" it off the body. Of course, you have to shoot really fast in the same place before they shoot you....
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:57:03 PM EDT
Dept. of homeland defense uses the p90. One of my neighbors works for them and has to qualify on it every now and then. He says it's a good gun and a lot of fun to shoot. He's never tried it on a people though. They don't carry the 5and7 pistol, they have Sigs with .357 sig ammo.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:02:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:18:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
The advantage I find with my FiveSeven is superior accuracy, long-range capability without even need of a scope (it is dead-flat out to 100-150 yds), and very little recoil, enabling multiple shot follow-up with very high accuracy.

If you can shoot someone in the head or vitals multiple times, with the ability to also penetrate up to level IIa armor (with SS192, SS195LF), then you have yourself a good gun.

I've done testing with my FiveSeven and I've found it a worthy weapon. It's all about shot placement anyway, which people seem to constantly forget.

The FiveSeven and P90 are used for armor-penetration and accuracy, in a very light and compact package, which is why SF and SWAT teams choose these weapons for operations. Check FiveSevenForum.com there is a list of US departments using this gun now for carry, and the P90 for officer rifle and/or SWAT, and it is growing.

- rem



Sure, and they'll figure it out just like they figured out the MP was no .223.

It's all hype and advertising or else depts would have gone to the .22 magnum years ago. Even the ruskies figured out the Tokarev was limited.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:41:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
11" of penetration is bad, and 7" is worse? Come on. You only need something like 1.5" of penetration to get to the vital organs. Besides, I haven't seen too many people that are a foot deep at the chest. How much penetrations does the FBI need?



WTF?? Where did you come up with that? Shit, motown, you need to do some reading ASAP!

Start by reading all the tacked Dr. Fackler articles in the Ammo Forum..

1.5" of penetration will get you nowhere. I've done pleural effusion taps on fat people and didn't even get to the ribs at 1.5". You need to get a bare minimum of 10" of penetration to reliably reach the deeper large vessels/bronchi of the chest. This is a minimum. 12-16" of penetration is really what you want especially if a bullet travels through the arm first.

Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:43:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Please do NOT equate the fact that a few agencies use the P90 for specific purposes to them endorsing the Five-seveN.

The P90 has a much longer barrel that imparts higher velocity on the ammo, and it is a full-auto weapon that will spray bursts into people.

The Five-seveN is a semi-auto pistol with a shorter barrel and less terminal performance than the P90 (which already isn't all that great). And unlike the P90, you aren't likely to put 6-8 shots into someone with the Five-seveN in a half-second.

Even worse is the fact that the ammo even the old SS-192 ammo didn't perform as well as the military load (SS-190), and the new SS-196 is worse yet.

Based on everything I've read, the 5.7 round is, at best (i.e., full-auto from a P90) "adequate", and in most cases, is no better than a .22Mag in performance.

If you own one, or want to own one, for it's uniqueness or for its utility as a target pistol, well, that's something else entirely.

-Troy



Actually, the longer barrel on the P90 only buys you about 200 fps more than the FiveseveN pistol. To be honest with you though, I don't know how much a a difference that 200 fps makes.

Also, the ss192 (of which I have 500 rounds) is only about 30 fps slower than the ss190 AP ammo.

You're definately correct about the P90 being able to put alot more rounds into a target alot faster than the FiveseveN, but I don't buy this stuff that everyone's saying about the FiveseveN being no more than a .22 magnum. The velocity of a .22 magnum is about 200 fps less than that of a 5.7x28 (ss192 fired from a FiveseveN handgun), but as I said before I don't know how much of a difference that 200 fps makes.

I have a USG. I like it alot. It's accurate, light, hold 20 rounds (20 ROUNDS!!!) and it seems pretty durable. I'd use it as a self defense gun in a minute if I knew how well it did against bad guys.

I keep waffling on this issue. Part of me says that it's a great gun for the reasons I named above, and part of me says that it's just a cool looking plinker. I wish some dickhead would just climb through the wrong window and get his ass plugged by a FiveseveN so I could have my answer.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:45:02 PM EDT
I have seen thousands of Jaffa get nailed with the 5.7. The go down like a pile of rocks. Armor and all. No problem taking down man sized targets.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:53:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
11" of penetration is bad, and 7" is worse? Come on. You only need something like 1.5" of penetration to get to the vital organs. Besides, I haven't seen too many people that are a foot deep at the chest. How much penetrations does the FBI need?



WTF?? Where did you come up with that? Shit, motown, you need to do some reading ASAP!

Start by reading all the tacked Dr. Fackler articles in the Ammo Forum..

1.5" of penetration will get you nowhere. I've done pleural effusion taps on fat people and didn't even get to the ribs at 1.5". You need to get a bare minimum of 10" of penetration to reliably reach the deeper large vessels/bronchi of the chest. This is a minimum. 12-16" of penetration is really what you want especially if a bullet travels through the arm first.




I got the 1.5 inches from an article that I read on knives.

10" is bullshit. I'm a pretty big guy, and it can't be any more than 7" from the front of my chest to my back (althought I don't have any means of accurately measuring that).

I realize how well respected Dr. Fackler is and how valuable all of his work has been, but to be honest with you in this matter I'm not interested in a Dr.'s opinions/findings, unless they're from the doctor who performed the autopsy on the guy who got shot with a 5.7.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:55:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
I have seen thousands of Jaffa get nailed with the 5.7. The go down like a pile of rocks. Armor and all. No problem taking down man sized targets.



So do Cylons, although you have to use the explosive tipped rounds with the "Toasters".
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 9:00:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Followthehollow:

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:

Originally Posted By cnorton:
A little off topic, but I just learned that there is a CA legal version. Still not interested.



Shoots 8mm plastic pellets??




pellets are too violent. It shoots rainbows and puppy dogs.



Isn't that the LE only version?

<­BR>





­
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 9:04:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I got the 1.5 inches from an article that I read on knives.



Rule #1: Knives != bullets.

A 2" knife will get you to most of the major arteries if you know what you're doing. Relying on 2" penetration from a bullet will get you killed. Most hostile targets will not be head on, a fair number of them will require penetrating some part of the arm, so on & so forth....
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 9:10:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2005 9:12:22 PM EDT by LonePathfinder]
I think you people are over analyzing.

We all know that there are no "man stoppers" out there in the bullet world. Its always about shot placement. There are some calibers that do make larger wounds than others, but in the end it is relative.

The ER doesn't classify those who have been shot as "oh he's only been shot with a 22" any different than the guy shot with a 500 S&W.

The Five Seven does have a pretty high capacity for its size. 20+1 rounds is nothing to laugh at even if it's wound tract is no better than a 22. A through and through 22 hit, depending on what 5.7 numbers you believe, is nothing to laugh at. Besides, as mentioned the flat trajectory, means it is much easier to engage further out than normal.

The high capacity and slightly longer practicle range seem to me to make it a viable weapon. You design tactics around the gear you have, and I believe the Five Seven offers a range of abilities otherwise not present in hand guns.

Armor penetration, and high capacity on a normal size frame/mag, no mag extensions here.

I'd get one if I had the money. A five seven, two spare mags yeilds 61 rounds, quite a lot for the weight.

Hell I'd wish someone would make something like the grendel again, 30 round 22 pistol!! Oh well. Where is my drink
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 9:16:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
10" is bullshit. I'm a pretty big guy, and it can't be any more than 7" from the front of my chest to my back (althought I don't have any means of accurately measuring that).

I realize how well respected Dr. Fackler is and how valuable all of his work has been, but to be honest with you in this matter I'm not interested in a Dr.'s opinions/findings, unless they're from the doctor who performed the autopsy on the guy who got shot with a 5.7.



For the bazillionith time in this thread, nobody is talking about 12-16" (or whatever) of penetration on a human torso. They are talking about penetration as tested in calibrated ballistic gelatin.

Go read the Fackler articles.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 9:24:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I got the 1.5 inches from an article that I read on knives.



Rule #1: Knives != bullets.

A 2" knife will get you to most of the major arteries if you know what you're doing. Relying on 2" penetration from a bullet will get you killed. Most hostile targets will not be head on, a fair number of them will require penetrating some part of the arm, so on & so forth....



You're missing my point completely. I wasn't trying to say that you only need 2" of penetration from a bullet. I'm saying that 11" should still more than enough based on the fact that you can reach the vital organs with less than 2" of penetration.

Also, keep in mind that the circumstances under which an FBI agent (or other LEO) may need to shoot someone will vary greatly from the circumstances under which a regular Joe can shoot somebody. An FBI agent may need to enter a room a shoot someone so that the bullet passes through their left arm, enters their torso on the left side, passes through their torso and exits on the right side, before that person has an opportunity to turn and present a head on target. You and I have a different standard of what constitutes a threat. If you or I shoot someone from the side then we are going to have a hard time proving in court that we were under attack and had to shoot that person.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 9:37:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
10" is bullshit. I'm a pretty big guy, and it can't be any more than 7" from the front of my chest to my back (althought I don't have any means of accurately measuring that).

I realize how well respected Dr. Fackler is and how valuable all of his work has been, but to be honest with you in this matter I'm not interested in a Dr.'s opinions/findings, unless they're from the doctor who performed the autopsy on the guy who got shot with a 5.7.



For the bazillionith time in this thread, nobody is talking about 12-16" (or whatever) of penetration on a human torso. They are talking about penetration as tested in calibrated ballistic gelatin.

Go read the Fackler articles.



I've read his articles in the past, and the science is all very fascinating, but for the bazillionth time I'm not interested in what the theories and general principles of 30 year old ballistic data have to say with regards to this issue. For one thing, this caliber behaves differently than most other calibers. Second, the different rounds available for this caliber behave differently from one another.

I started this thread to find out if there have been actual cases that illustrate the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of this pistol.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 9:46:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I started this thread to find out if there have been actual cases that illustrate the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of this pistol.



Marshall and Sanow would be proud.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 9:59:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 8:19:36 AM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I started this thread to find out if there have been actual cases that illustrate the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of this pistol.



Marshall and Sanow would be proud.





I'm not trying to develop a scientific model for determining "stopping power" on a wide variety of guns. I just wanted to know if there had been any actual cases where someone had been shot with an FN FiveseveN, and what the results were.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 10:16:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I'm not trying to develop a scientific model for determining "stopping power" on a wide variety of guns, dickhead.



Since you aren't exactly holding back here, why did you bother IMing me?
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 10:18:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I'm not trying to develop a scientific model for determining "stopping power" on a wide variety of guns, dickhead.



Since you aren't exactly holding back here, why did you bother IMing me?



I was trying to avoid getting this thread sent to the pit.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 4:50:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I got the 1.5 inches from an article that I read on knives.



In a person of normal weight (NOT a fatbody), the only large arteries you could reach, not necessarily transect but only reach, with a 1.5"-2" knife are the carotid, the subclavian and the femoral.

No one shoots for the neck so the carotid is out.

No one shoots for the groin so the femoral is out.

So that leaves the subclavian which makes a target of about the size of your pinky. And this is in a person who is not overweight. If it is a fatbody then you are only stabbing skin and fat.


Originally Posted By motown_steve:
10" is bullshit. I'm a pretty big guy, and it can't be any more than 7" from the front of my chest to my back (althought I don't have any means of accurately measuring that).



No, 10" is not bullshit. For the average 70kg adult, the distance from the front of the chest to the back is 9". So relying on even 7" of penetration in not acceptable considering that at an angle you would have to traverse more than 9" of tissue. 11" in an unprotected target is better, but you are still talking about an ice-pick until the bullet yaws. The bullet does not possess any magical powers like you are implying.


Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I realize how well respected Dr. Fackler is and how valuable all of his work has been, but to be honest with you in this matter I'm not interested in a Dr.'s opinions/findings, unless they're from the doctor who performed the autopsy on the guy who got shot with a 5.7.



It has nothing to do with respecting Fackler. Just look at his data.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:35:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By dport:
All the data I've seen is for the SS190 not the SS192.
From the NATO testing. Remember 2.54cm per inch:

(U) = Unprotected target
(P) = Protected target

Gelatin block characterization for the 5.7mm:
Begins yawing (U): 2-8cm
Maximum Penetration (U): 26-27cm
Begins yawing (P): 3cm
Maximum Penetration (P): 12-16cm


The Max Penetration for the unprotected target is under 11 inches. For the protected target it's even worse at less than 7 inches.



11" of penetration is bad, and 7" is worse? Come on. You only need something like 1.5" of penetration to get to the vital organs. Besides, I haven't seen too many people that are a foot deep at the chest. How much penetrations does the FBI need?


You're assuming you'll have a perfect head on shot all the time, not from the side or through an arm or at an up or down angle. The FBI has their 12" requirement written in blood. The Winchester Silvertip penetrated 10-11" in gel regularly. Then one day in Miami it did the same, through an arm, in an armed bankrobber. It stopped just short of the BG's heart. We can argue their tactics all day, however, had the agent been armed with a round that penetrated a minimum of 12" there would have been less bloodshed.

You can assume all you need is 1.5" of penetration, but assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. And me, I'll take the BG bleeding from two holes thank you.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:38:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Please do NOT equate the fact that a few agencies use the P90 for specific purposes to them endorsing the Five-seveN.

The P90 has a much longer barrel that imparts higher velocity on the ammo, and it is a full-auto weapon that will spray bursts into people.

The Five-seveN is a semi-auto pistol with a shorter barrel and less terminal performance than the P90 (which already isn't all that great). And unlike the P90, you aren't likely to put 6-8 shots into someone with the Five-seveN in a half-second.

Even worse is the fact that the ammo even the old SS-192 ammo didn't perform as well as the military load (SS-190), and the new SS-196 is worse yet.

Based on everything I've read, the 5.7 round is, at best (i.e., full-auto from a P90) "adequate", and in most cases, is no better than a .22Mag in performance.

If you own one, or want to own one, for it's uniqueness or for its utility as a target pistol, well, that's something else entirely.

-Troy


I'm not sure if you've heard the SS-195 duplicates the -192 performance, such that it is, and there is a SS-197 coming out sometime in the next several weeks.

I like shooting the 5.7, and I hope it gets cheaper to shoot, but it isn't in my nightstand for obvious reasons.
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