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Posted: 12/8/2005 5:38:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 5:41:55 AM EDT by david_g17]
poll inbound.

i feel safer knowing that anyone who tries that is likely to be shot.

it's exactly what happened on 9/11. the terrorists claimed they had bombs.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:39:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 5:39:40 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
IBTP

Yes - he said he had a bomb, I would have given him the benefit of the doubt.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:41:15 AM EDT
Still waiting for all the facts to come out. With the info I have seen so far... Yes, I would've shot!
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:46:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 5:46:49 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
I wasn't there, suspect you weren't either..........

What kind of fuck-stick second guesses decisions made in the spur of the moment when the the real details and facts of the shooting are not yet known?


Mike

ps (I, unlike you am assuming of course the 30 second blurb on my network news did not contain all the facts of the shooting, which most intelligent folks prefer to wait for before passing judgment on issues like this)
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:46:36 AM EDT
Yup.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:49:00 AM EDT
Based on what was reported, he made a threat that endangered many lives. No problem.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:50:21 AM EDT
Not sure, kind of hard to ask if I would kill some one based on a few reports. I think only one person knows how it felt.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:51:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Not sure, kind of hard to ask if I would kill some one based on a few reports. I think only one person knows how it felt.



You need to change your avatar back to Oprah. How it 'felt'? Sheesh.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:51:37 AM EDT
It doesn't sound like he had any choice. It's sad though. Sad for the Marshall. I hate these people that commit suicide by cop.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:52:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Not sure, kind of hard to ask if I would kill some one based on a few reports. I think only one person knows how it felt.



You need to change your avatar back to Oprah. How it 'felt'? Sheesh.


Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:52:46 AM EDT
Of course not ! The guy was a troubled person screaming out for help.He needs to be understood,not shot.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:53:10 AM EDT
This is a glimpse of the future. Homicide bombers are coming people, I'm actually surprised they are not here yet.

American law enforcement is going to have to rethink how it deals with terror on the home front. This FAM did the right thing in my opinion. Should he have waited for the person to blow himself up and everyone around him to see if he really has a device?

Say you have a bomb, run from police, refuse to comply with officers on scene to not reach into your bag.... good shoot every time.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:53:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 5:55:21 AM EDT by PBIR]
Airport = bad place to bullshit about a bomb.

I just flew the other day and the signs are still up everywhere: "Hey wackos and amatuer funnymen - even joke about a bomb here and we will ship you down to gitmo in a camel costume and a lifetime supply of KY jelly"

The guy was running from one crowded AO to another via the jetway, the only non-populated area in the scenario. Even I would have put three in him.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:54:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By weptek911:
It doesn't sound like he had any choice. It's sad though. Sad for the Marshall. I hate these people that commit suicide by cop.


I think it was more along the lines pissed at the wife got into a fight with her than commented that he had a bomb to get attention, back fired, marshall stands up draws weapon tells him to drop the bag, he flees marshall gives chase continues to run reaches into the bag marshall fires.


But thats just how I see it happening
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:55:16 AM EDT
Don't bring bomb threats to a gunfight.

HH
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:55:44 AM EDT
Heck yeah, I would've shot him! Mental cases are more dangerous. The air marshall should've shot the woman, too. They might've been a man-woman homicide bombing team from a terrorist group or drug cartel.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:56:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:

I think it was more along the lines pissed at the wife got into a fight with her than commented that he had a bomb to get attention, back fired, marshall stands up draws weapon tells him to drop the bag, he flees marshall gives chase continues to run reaches into the bag marshall fires.


But thats just how I see it happening



nailhead, hammer.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:01:04 AM EDT
Based on what info I have- Yes! Split second decisions had to be made, the AM job was to defend the people on the plane .
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:02:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By olyarms:

I think it was more along the lines pissed at the wife got into a fight with her than commented that he had a bomb to get attention, back fired, marshall stands up draws weapon tells him to drop the bag, he flees marshall gives chase continues to run reaches into the bag marshall fires.


But thats just how I see it happening



nailhead, hammer.



Thats what it sounds like. A very stupid thing to do, but today you just cant say shit like that. Im not sure if him saying he has a bomb deserves to get himself killed, but who knows what went on. Ill wait till all the facts come out.

With all the terrorism bullshit, Im sure those marshalls were pretty on edge when they see this guy flipping out and claiming he had a bomb. If he really did have a bomb the whole country would be claiming these guys as heroes and parading them around. Shit happens.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:05:00 AM EDT
He wouldn't have gotten the whole sentence out. "I have a bom" POP! POP! POP!

Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:06:10 AM EDT
Absofuckinlutely...

He admitted to be in possession of a bomb... fuck him.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:08:08 AM EDT
RGR. He said he had one, wasn't doing what he was told. I would presume the marshall identified himself as such. When he reached for the bag, I would have done the same thing. Good for the marshall.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:08:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BigB1129:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By olyarms:

I think it was more along the lines pissed at the wife got into a fight with her than commented that he had a bomb to get attention, back fired, marshall stands up draws weapon tells him to drop the bag, he flees marshall gives chase continues to run reaches into the bag marshall fires.


But thats just how I see it happening



nailhead, hammer.



Thats what it sounds like. A very stupid thing to do, but today you just cant say shit like that. Im not sure if him saying he has a bomb deserves to get himself killed, but who knows what went on. Ill wait till all the facts come out.

With all the terrorism bullshit, Im sure those marshalls were pretty on edge when they see this guy flipping out and claiming he had a bomb. If he really did have a bomb the whole country would be claiming these guys as heroes and parading them around. Shit happens.


Did he deserve to be killed, no. But at the same time is the Air Marshall at fault, from what I have heard no. It's basically a no win. His actions got him killed and the air marshall was doing what he fealt he needed to do. The guy made a stupid as choice. Hope he didn't have any kids
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:08:44 AM EDT
I hate to say it but keep in mind he was from Central America. He had a dark complection. I am sure that he could be pass for middle eastern. Dark skined person acting nutty screaming he has a bomb=getting shot. I am sorry he was shot but shit happens.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:08:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:
Heck yeah, I would've shot him! Mental cases are more dangerous. The air marshall should've shot the woman, too. They might've been a man-woman homicide bombing team from a terrorist group or drug cartel.



+1 Just waiting for some liberal to say that the FAM should of waited for the wife to explain to him that he was bipolar and off the meds. In a situation like that, the FAM doesn't have time to second guess and conduct an intensive investigation. Guy running around screaming he has bomb, refuses to comply to lawful order, runs away from authorities, and then reaches into a bag. Good shoot.

For all the FAM knows, the whole wife and bipolar/no med thing could of been a ruse. Imagine if the FAM didn't shoot and took the time to find out about the bipolar/no med ordeal. The minute that story hit the air, terrorist organizations would be like "Look. The wife was able to stall the FAM by saying husband is bipolar and off his medication. We have started to recruit and use women suicide bombers now. This would be perfect scenario to use to distract and gain a few precious seconds on any FAM."
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:10:47 AM EDT
Asking this question is idiotic. Sorry, but it is. Hindsight is always 20/20.

If you knew everything in advance of course the outcome would be different... Kids holding toy guns and waving them at cops wouldn't get shot either... but you just don't know.

Add the "fog/haze of battle" that clouds our judgment at important times and it becomes even more difficult to ensure you're making the right call.

This Air Marshal did the right thing at the right time. If he hadn't, and the guy had been carrying a bomb, your poll would say "Should the Air Marshal have shot the guy to save XXX lives?"

I'm not voting in this one.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:10:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
I hate to say it but keep in mind he was from Central America. He had a dark complection. I am sure that he could be pass for middle eastern. Dark skined person acting nutty screaming he has a bomb=getting shot. I am sorry he was shot but shit happens.



good call.

wasn't the guy in london who was shot from brazil?

must be something in the water down there .
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:12:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Asking this question is idiotic. Sorry, but it is. Hindsight is always 20/20.

If you knew everything in advance of course the outcome would be different... Kids holding toy guns and waving them at cops wouldn't get shot either... but you just don't know.

Add the "fog/haze of battle" that clouds our judgment at important times and it becomes even more difficult to ensure you're making the right call.

This Air Marshal did the right thing at the right time. If he hadn't, and the guy had been carrying a bomb, your poll would say "Should the Air Marshal have shot the guy to save XXX lives?"

I'm not voting in this one.



that was my point entirely.

based on everything the guy knew at the time.

heck, i'd have shot him even knowing what i know now. if he was that stupid, he was too dangerous to allow on the plane.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:13:12 AM EDT
I see a potentialy disturbing trend.
Suicide by cops. Don't have the balls or are not crazy enough to do it?
Tell a cop you have a bomb or weapon. Bamb! Mission accoplished
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:14:28 AM EDT
In this era of suicide bombers and nutcases galore how could anyone even remotely question the decision to shoot?

If I'd been in the Air Marshall's shoes and stood the chance of being the guy that allowed scores of people to be blown to bits, including, I might add, myself, uuuuhhhh...let's see....[Rainman Voice] Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely gonna shoot. Definitely. [/Rainman Voice].

I take comfort in knowing we have folks on the job that aren't going to go into a bunch of psychological bullshit: they see someone acting like a psychopath or saying he's got a friggin' bomb? They blow his ass away.

I had hoped the Air Marshalls weren't just there just as some grotesque bureaucratic ass-covering ploy. Now I see they're not.

The officer did what he was trained to do under the circumstances and did it well.

That said, I must reiterate that I am not trying to offend psychopaths who hang out in airports. I realize that it is harder than ever being a psychopath these days and events like this make this most demanding of lifestyles even tougher than usual.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:14:52 AM EDT
The answer is basic shoot/don't shoot training.

There is a threat, due to the size of the threat a decision must be made, execute that decision.

Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:15:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MTUSA:
I see a potentialy disturbing trend.
Suicide by cops. Don't have the balls or are not crazy enough to do it?
Tell a cop you have a bomb or weapon. Bamb! Mission accoplished



if you really wanna go out with a bang, go to bulletfest, shout allah ackbar, and claim you want to kill the infidels.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:16:34 AM EDT
air marshal did their job!
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:16:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
I hate to say it but keep in mind he was from Central America. He had a dark complection. I am sure that he could be pass for middle eastern. Dark skined person acting nutty screaming he has a bomb=getting shot. I am sorry he was shot but shit happens.



good call.

wasn't the guy in london who was shot from brazil?

must be something in the water down ther
e .


From my understanding the guy from brazil pretty much did nothing wrong. Simply a case of a few British police who fucked up by time. I love how to brits talk so much shit about us but at the same time after 9/11 our cops didn't run around executing "suspected" terrorist in the street. Yeah us trigger happy Yankees. This just goes to show how much discipline we have its been over 4 years and this is the first time anything like this has happened.

This doesnt seem to be the case.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:18:32 AM EDT
Based on the information I have read, it appears to be a good shoot. I think the FAM deserves some sort of award for doing the right thing. He had a decision to make and he made the correct decision according to his training.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:18:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
I hate to say it but keep in mind he was from Central America. He had a dark complection. I am sure that he could be pass for middle eastern. Dark skined person acting nutty screaming he has a bomb=getting shot. I am sorry he was shot but shit happens.



good call.

wasn't the guy in london who was shot from brazil?

must be something in the water down ther
e .


From my understanding the guy from brazil pretty much did nothing wrong. Simply a case of a few British police who fucked up by time. I love how to brits talk so much shit about us but at the same time after 9/11 our cops didn't run around executing "suspected" terrorist in the street. Yeah us trigger happy Yankees. This just goes to show how much discipline we have its been over 4 years and this is the first time anything like this has happened.

This doesnt seem to be the case.

are you sure? i thought the cops told him to stop, and he ran off into the subway or something (wearing bulky clothes).
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:21:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gregory_A:
Of course not ! The guy was a troubled person screaming out for help.He needs to be understood,not shot.



well he should have screamed "i need help, will some1 help me" not "i have bomb"

now he's has some bullets
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:27:33 AM EDT
TTTC, OTTH
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:27:48 AM EDT
Dont say "I have a bomb" in an airport,subway station,etc. then run around like a nutjob then make threatening moves then reach for said "bomb". You may die.

Much like ,dont act belligerent or threatening while reaching into your pocket in a suspicious/threatening manner when confronted by law enforcement . Mr. Policeman doesnt know that you are reaching for your wallet or a gun.You may die.


This is simply unconscious knowledge.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:32:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 6:36:30 AM EDT by kindstranger]
From what I read, the AM deserves the PMF.

How the threat was neutralized while passengers and airport personel were as far as possible seems to indicate a very high level of training, cool headedness and professionalism.

Yelling you have a bomb and then reaching into a gym bag is no different than yelling you have a gun and reaching into your jacket pocket, well, except the consequences could be much worse with the bomb thingy.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:33:10 AM EDT
well isn't that why we have air marshals?????? this guy was dumb enough to say he had a bomb and then run, it was only a matter of time before he was going to get himself or others killed. he sounds like he was already a drain on our society.
usmc5593
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:45:12 AM EDT
Does anyone think this might have been a test run? They have sacrificed people before.

Something screams at me that this might have been a test to see how much they might get away with, possibly. I think we might just have to start putting up with this in the future. Welcome to the new United States.



I used to teach classes on IED's in my Army unit back in the early 80's. Unless technology has come a long, long way - you cannot make an IED without some wiring for the detonator. That is, unless you use a combustion type initiator like the British shoe bomber, which failed. Mechanical is better, but involves metal. I don't see how he could have gotten through trace residue testing or metal detection unless he bypassed all those checks - which is the way I'd do it, if I were going to do such a mission. He came from another country, he could have bypassed the foreign screening process easily.

I'd have plugged him sooner, myself. You can't take chances. You scream "bomb" expect to go down.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:46:01 AM EDT
I would have given him a mag dump to center of mass
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:50:08 AM EDT
After 9/11, if you go onto a plane and act like a terrorist wannabe dumbass, the Marshalls should not only shoot, but only stop shooting when the last round in the mag is gone!
I don't care what your issues are...
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:52:23 AM EDT
Nah, I would have made him a cup of cocoa.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:56:01 AM EDT
Hell yes I'd have shot. Those Air Marshalls are some bored-ass people, why begrudge them a little excitement?
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:59:14 AM EDT
Good shoot.

Good example.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 7:00:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
After 9/11, if you go onto a plane and act like a terrorist wannabe dumbass, the Marshalls should not only shoot, but only stop shooting when the last round in the mag is gone!
I don't care what your issues are...



No, just until the threat is stopped. Then you engage any remaining threats, no?
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 7:01:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
I hate to say it but keep in mind he was from Central America. He had a dark complection. I am sure that he could be pass for middle eastern. Dark skined person acting nutty screaming he has a bomb=getting shot. I am sorry he was shot but shit happens.



Honestly, that doesn't really matter.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 7:02:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
Don't bring bomb threats to a gunfight.

HH




Link Posted: 12/8/2005 7:03:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 7:03:29 AM EDT by prk]
Why do you even ask? This is a no-brainer. Good shoot. Of course, wife is receiving a barrage of calls from PI attorneys, and there WILL be a lawsuit.

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