Excellent point. Let me tell a short sea-story to illustrate, if you will.

So there I was, a young civilian sitting in Murphy's Pub on King Street in Old Town Alexandria, Virginia on 10 November, 1989. An Irish band was up on stage singing rebel songs, I had a pint of Guinness in front of me, and all was good in my corner of the world.

Two Marines in Dress Blues walked in with their dates in gowns and sat at the bar next to me and my date. Until that point, the fact that 10 November is the Marine Corps' Birthday hadn't crossed my mind. I raised my glass to the lads and wished them a happy birthday, and it was a good thing.

A few minutes later, one of the lads realized what it was the singer was singing about, and commented to the effect that "they're just a bunch of bloodthirsty terrorists." At that point, I had several smart options. Instead of taking any of them, I leaned over to the young agent and said something to the effect of, "Don't forget, in 1775 when they were formed, the British considered the United States Marine Corps to be a bunch of bloodthirst terrorists."

Well, that went over like a fart in a car until I got a chance to explain to him that in 1775, this nation was ruled by and from Britain, and a bunch of lads armed with rifles, on ships running British blockades and firing on British ships were considered terrorists. We all know what side history came out on, but it was dicey there for a while, wasn't it?

I bought them a round and they bought us a round just to show that there were no hard feelings.

Disarm? WTF - hell NO.

Tyler

[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/tylerdurden1201%2FplatoonPic3%2Ejpg[/img]

I ABSOLUTELY THINK THAT THOSE ASSHOLES SHOULD BE DISARMED!   ASAP !!!


[b]Oops....  Sorry !  I misread your post.  I thought that you wrote "IRS".[/b]

In 1901 with a vote, not a war, six seperate colonies joined together to form the Commonwealth of Australia.

This country is only 100 yrs old! In the history of this vast brown flat land, we have fought the wars and conflicts of 11 other nations, including Viet Nam, where over 50,000 troops were committed. At that time we had a population of about 12 million. Lives lost in the 20th century, over 100,000.

I am not picking sides here. As for N Ire, a small part of the population wants to seperate from the UK. A small part, not a majority. Might be a different story if it was the whole lot of em!

I studied US history for 2 yrs, and it was by far the majority of the people who wanted independence from the Pommys.

I reckon Geo Washington's Men did not target innocent children and women to terrorise and bomb to force a government into submission.

Being armed is not a humman right, but an American one. You have fought long and hard to keep it,and I think that is GREAT! But, if you had a terrorist org in the heartland of the USA, I am sure you would want them stopped. Would you want Tim McV's followers to be disarmed? You bet you would!

Both the UDR and the IRA must be dissarmed of MGs and RPGs etc. Democracy must be given a chance here. I have family in N Ire near Belfast. They all have had a gutfull of violence over 30yrs of frustration.

There is nothing wrong with law abiding citizens owning guns of there choice, but you got to draw a line somewhere.

Gutless cowards use bombs to terrorise people. Freedom fighters attack military targets. The IRA are murdering cowards, whos's idealisms are Marxist. Do you wanna support that? I think not. 60,000 Americans died in Viet Nam alone to halt communism. Don't forget that.

The right to self-defense (i.e. firearms ownership) is a basic human right, most governments want power to do as they please so they fuck the populace out of weapons.  Australia (no flame intended) is a member of a long list of sorry freedom destroyers.  

If the government of N. Ireland armed every single adult there would not be the kind of violence there is now, because there would be no defenseless target for cowards to attack.  Also, the Protestants have the Ulster Liberation Army.  They are just as bad, and in some cases are worse than the IRA.  

I say:  Make a fortune selling guns to them and if they destroy themselves, so what.

All's I am saying both sides should be disarmed, so democracy can be given a chance to grow. Thats all.

You are right about what you say about our govt, as the same in Canada, and the UK, etc. It sucks, now they wanna ban SeaDoo's etc. What next! Freedom rapers is a term I prefer. But what can I do, I am a soldier, and do what I am told, and pass it down the chain. On the lighter side, it could be worse.

Not very many countries have the rights you have. What others have the right to bear arms? Self defence is one thing, but having the right to own a gun in another. Here it is a privillage (and thats fragile). I wish we had the right to do it here, just like you. You are all very lucky, but there are assholes who wanna ban em there too. Just don't let that happen. Personally I reckon that will never happen in the USA.

Its always the squeaking wheel that gets the oil.

Post from Celt -

Did you read my post, at all? Does it matter to you what 'they' say? Don't you think that George Washington and his crew are about twenty years away from being considered terrorists again? This time not by the Brits, but by their own countrymen?

Well, were they terrorists, or not? You tell me what you think, not what 'they' [b]feel.[/b]

Already in Texas they are renaming grade schools that were 'unfortunately' named for heroes from the Texas Revolution because these heroes were not politically correct in their view of Blacks (slavery, you know), Hispanics (the whole revolution thing), and women (that old 'head and master' thing).

So if hard-assed Texans can be driven to think of their Nineteenth Century leaders in terms of Twenty-first Century political correctness, how long do you reckon Washington and Jefferson are going to remain heroes in this brave new American Culture of the future?

We are either correct or we are not in our view of the RKBA, and the other traditional rights of man that are 'protected, not granted' in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.  Whether or not the liberal press, Schumer, Clinton, et al., 'feel' that we are terrorists, makes no frigging difference to me.  Does it to you?

Tell me about someone whose opinions I respect. Not about a bunch of lame-assed liberals whose
'feelings' ain't worth a pitcher of spit!


And you would not oppose them if they tried to do so?  You wouldn't call them terrorists if they tried to claim the land on which your home was sitting, where your wife and children lived, and that you had paid your life savings for?

If my great granddaddy burned down your great granddaddy's barn, back in 1865, would you think yourself justified burning down my barn today? There comes a time when the right to retribution or to reclaim a right is no longer justifiable.

If the Native Indians wanted their land back they should have successfully taken it back during the lifetimes of those who 'lost' it. If they wanted revenge for the deaths of their braves, their women and children, only those whites who did the killings were worthy of any punishment.


Maybe that would be the right thing to do for you, but it is not a right that your children or grandchildren should inherit from you.

But forget about communist help the IRA has received in the past, ARE THEY MARXISTS TODAY?

If so, then they are terrorists TODAY!

Eric The(YouThinkEireWantsToGoMarxist?)Hun[>]:)]

The Irish had been fighting for Independence from the British for Hundreds of Years. It wasn't until Britain got involved in WWI that the Irish managed to be successful in their revolt against the British. The Brits were NOT inclined to accept a VOTE. The Irish had to actually SHOOT British officials.

Just prior to this was the unsuccessful Easter Rebellion. The British used Artillary against the Irish Rebels. Many of the ringleaders of the Rebellion were later executed by firing squad including one fellow who was deathly ill.

Northern Ireland was "created" through a compromise deal with the British. During that time (as well as the present) only a "minority" of the people living up there (particularly Belfast) were Protestants.
However it is the way that the Protestants became the "majority" that is "interesting".During the British colonization of Ireland it was illegal for a native (read: Catholic) Irishman to own any land in Ireland. Catholic's were routinely discriminated against when it came to jobs, schools, housing. In Belfast: a major Shipyard industry developed. Catholics were NOT allowed to get good jobs in the shipyards and northern Ireland was steadily depopulated of Catholics.

Ireland will NEVER have any sort of peace until it is ONE country again like it was before William of Orange invaded. You can have all of the "peace treaty's" you want but there will NEVER be any peace until Britain is out of Ireland for good.

As for the IRA being bloody Terrorists..I would like to remind you of a little incident that occured in Derry (or LondonDerry if you're an Orangeman) one fine Sunday Morning in 1972 when the British Para's (Paratroopers) fired on innocent civilians and killed them.

For more information on this act of charity by the British Army...see...
[url]http://www.larkspirit.com/bloodysunday/[/url]

Post from

Yes, 13 men and boys were killed by British troopers who claimed that they were being fired upon from the crowd. The British troops were exonerated at the time, but a new inquiry has been ordered, just recently.

But if that was 'Bloody Sunday', how do you feel about 'Bloody Saturday' when the IRA, on a sunny summer Saturday in August 1998, set off a car bomb on a busy shopping street in the market town of Omagh, killing 29 civilians and maiming and wounding 300 others.

Oooohh, but that was a brave one, me lads.

[b]Nevertheless, what I want to know is the IRA an ideologically Marxist group or not?[/b]

I simply don't know, but are you certain that Catholics are in the majority in Ulster 'at present'?  I didn't think they were, but I could be wrong.

Insofar as Irish early History was concerned, they never made much headway against the Brits simply because each of the Irish chieftains would make their own peace with the English and cut the throats of their own countrymen, for the price of an estate and a title. Simple divide and conquer tactics courtesy of the Plantagenets.

BTW how long do the Scots-Irish have to stay in Ulster before we decide they are 'native'?

Eric The(Orange)Hun[>]:)]

Some comments posted by Jarhead

What the folks blathering about "Democracy for All" in the North of Ireland don't seem to get is this:

>>The British invaded the soveriegn nation of Ireland -the entire country. They displaced the lawful owners of the land. They gave the land as payment to the officers in their army, who brought their families over and started the importation of what's become the majority<<

Now substitute 'Europeans' for British and 'North America' for Ireland and where do you get ?

USA

>>they're British imports and they've had it their own way for a long time.<<

Just like most citizens of the USA are European 'imports'

However, someone born in a country in a citizen of that country, they don't have citizenship of any other country, they can't just leave. May as well say that every African American is an African and should return there ! (not trying to give anyone ideas here)

>>The British and the Prods of the North of Ireland have been abusing, killing, imprisoning without trial and F^%(ing over the rightful owners of that country for centuries.<<

True, but once again, a parallel could be drawn with the Indians in the USA - and the aboriginals in Australia and New Zealand for that matter.

>>Anyone ever heard of the Black and Tans? The Auxies? The RUC? Yeah, like the British have the right to bitch about terrorism. They practically invented it.

Britain waives the rules!<<

True again. There have been many attrocities by British forces and their allies (in Ireland and elsewhere)Anyone heard of the 'shoot to kill policy' and the executions of 3 unarmed IRA members on the island of Gibraltar ?

Nobody is clean. What you need to ask is - is it better to continue the fight indefinately, or live in peace from here on in ?

If you go back far enough you can justify any case you want. Shouldn't the Druids have a right to Ireland? they were after all, displaced by the Catholics !

You'll also find that many of the British asistocracy (those who own 95% of the land) have French sounding names - direct descendents of William the Conquorer and his wine drinking smelly cronies. Should the native Anglo Saxons not have a right to their lands ?

And when you get right down to it, wasn;t the War of Independence really just the first American Civil War - now with sanitised and respectable name ?

[img]www.mcuzi.com/imbroglio/ira.jpg[/img]
Oglaigh na hEireann

For a group that prides itself on historical acumen, I can't believe that some RKI (term is from 'Raffica' column in Machine Guns News mag)doesn't have the answer at the tip of his gaelic tongue -

[size=4][b]Is the friggin IRA a Marxist group or not?[/b][/size=4]

Or does it even matter? I mean some of you guys who despise Republicans, for crying out loud, have some pretty pleasant crap to say about the IRA!  And if they're Marxist, I want to know how you square THAT little conundrum!!!!!

I would think you would know this out of hand.

Please don't make me go to AOL Search, you know just how crappy that search engine is and we don't want me up all night, now, do we?

Miz Hun might, but I don't think we do, right? Besides I'm getting too old for this kinda sh|t.

Eric The(MaybeIfThey're[b]Irish[/b]RepublicansTheyMayBeO.K.?)Hun[>]:)]

nylon: your points re: the similarities between the case for the Irish in the North of Ireland and the case for the American Indian have already been addressed by Celt, to wit:



Try not to continually beat that dead horse.

And yes, Eric the(Orange) Hun, the IRA is marxist. The Provos are not, and here's hoping they're the ones calling the shots if they ever get the chance to rule all of their own country.

And we can trade atrocity stories all day long, but that doesn't alter the fact that the "majority" in the North of Ireland only enjoy that status because they're the descendants of the invaders of a sovereign nation, a class apart.

If America was invaded and conquered by the Canadians, and the Canadian soldiers were paid in land here in the States, at what point would you say that it was time for Americans to just give up and accept their status as second class citizens of their own country? 10 years? 50 years? 100 years? Let me know if I'm getting warm.

Tiochfaidh ar la
Jarhead out.

But, Jarhead 22, mi amigo, we are the descendants of warriors who conquered the very land our butts are sitting on this very moment.
Surely we don't need to return the land and return to the mess that calls itself the EU?

I would say we have the right to kick the Canadians out while they were still the invaders, if we let them put down roots, raise a few generations of kiddies, build homes and farms and cities, then who is the 'invader' anymore?  Kinda like the Normans in England after 1066.

[b]Now, after more than four hundred years in Ulster, when do the Orangemen become 'natives'?[/b]

Did you support the South's right to secede? I did. And I support the Orangemen's right to secede from the rest of the Isle, as well. Even more so considering they were never part of a united Ireland in their history!

If the North can hang onto it's unique identity, then great. If not, I fear a very violent 'reconstruction' of a newly united Ireland, that will make the Reconstruction in the American South look pretty tame.

Eric The(fretful)Hun[>]:)]

You may well be, but I am the descendant of immigrants who got here in the 30s. Did my ancestors come here to attempt to make this land part of Germany or Ireland? No they did not. In fact, my grandfather, a first generation American, went back and shot down Messerschmitts and Focke-Wulfs over Germany and France with the 9th Air Force.



Absolutely not. We had a revolution here, not an invasion. There's a difference.



You may have a point, as long as the invaders and the system of government they set up view the previous inhabitants as equals to the "new residents." In the the Six Counties, this is not the case, is it? The descendants of the rightful owners of the land there are viewed as subhuman by the descendants of those who stole the land, aren't they?



As soon as they consider themselves as Irishmen and not conquerors. You think the Orange Order bullyboys marching through the Ardoyne contributes to the "natives" taking a friendly view toward the descendants of their conquerors?



I wasn't around when the south seceded from the union, and you weren't either. In hindsight, they had righteous grievances, sure. But the British people in the North of Ireland didn't secede, no matter that that's what you call it. They invaded the country and were pushed back by the IRA to the six counties of Ireland they still hold. That's all. They retreated to the land they hold.



The "unique identity" you reference only applies to a portion of the people there, the descendants of the folks who stole the land for them in the first place. Whether or not they keep their identity is of no concern of mine. If they want to be British, they should sell their houses, quit their jobs and move to Britain. If they want to be Irish, they should see about reuniting with the Republic. That sounds like the only way to avoid a serious reckoning. Something like the amnestied investigations South Africa ran after apartheid fell. Come to think of it, apartheid is a perfect analogy for the system in place in the North right now. Only you can't tell the players by color. Just what church they attend on Sunday. The Irish Catholic is the kaffir of the North.

[%(]

Jarhead

Celt made some comments which did not refute the fact that the Irish and American Indian cases are very similar. Not to mention many others around the world.

This is not a dead horse - the issues are very similar.

When are you vacating your property and giving it to an Indian family ? More importantly, will the nation of your ancestors accept you back. More importantly yet, would the Republic of Ireland accept you if you turned up there seeking a place to settle ? I doubt it !

Going down the same route, would Spain accept all the descendents of Spaniards who now populate South America and Mexico ?

More importantly again, how far back would you like to turn the clock - would you like to include conflicts that happened 5,000 years ago for instance ?
=========================================
I once heard a comedian recite this story.

Landowner: Get off my land, you're trespassing.

Trespasser: Where did you get this land ?

Landowner: My father gave it to me

Trespasser: And where did your father get the land ?

Landowner: His father gave it to him

Trespasser: And where did his father get it from ?

Landowner: He fought for it !

Trespasser: OK, I'll fight you for it now !
=============================================

It's all a matter of where you draw the timeline for ownership.

There are many who forcefully argue that religion is merely a device to control the populace. Before religion territories repeatedly changed hands - the strongest individuals or tribes displaced the weakest.

A clever man deduced that he needed to scare potential aggressors so much that they would never dare to take his lands. What is a man's greatest fear ? Answer, the fear of the unknown.

Along comes the concept of religion - break the laws of the land (made by those who devised and support the religion)and you will spend an eternity in hell - a place so bad that it cannot even be described.

It was interesting that the British nobility (in centuries gone bye) would not spend money on hospitals, housing, and schools for the peasants. BUT they were always eager to invest heavily in building expensive churches.

These churches were hosted by priests who came from the noble classes, and preached that you must respect thy lord and master, not trespass on his lands, take his game, or attempt to harm him. If you worked against the lord and master you would be damned to hell, because even if law enforcement didn't catch you, the Good Lord above hears and sees all, and there is no escape from his wrath.

A good lesson in people control.

Thank you nylon. If you believe what you've posted, then you've proven my point. Might makes right, so the IRA should never disarm or the Irish in the North of Ireland will continue to be a punching bag for Ian Paisley and his gang of slavering bullyboys in bowler hats and sashes, the UDR, UVF, UFF, as well as the Special Branch, the RUC and the British Army that supplies them all with intelligence and guns.

[Edited to add that disarming the Prod paramilitaries is a joke when they can and will be resupplied by the British in a heartbeat. Who stands by to rearm the Provos when tomorrows Black and Tans go on the march?]

Tiochfaidh ar la

Of course not!  And they sould not give up their toy guns either!

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1466000/1466252.stm[/url]

Know why the sun never sets on the British Empire?

Even GOD does not trust them in the dark!

But seriously, folks...

I think they should give up their bombs, but never their guns.

Yes, there is a Marxist element and I have no sympathy for that.  Bear in mind, they were not the first anti-British organization in the world forced to depend on the Soviet block for support because the US was either to intimitaded to support them or was manipulated into supporting British foreign policy.  So, I think that they became tainted with Marxism because it came with guns and money.

Anyway, wasn't Marx British????

Jarhead

Don't get the impression that I'm saying that the IRA should surrender their guns - I've repeatedly said the opposite.

You're correct. If the IRA surrendered their guns they would have a very difficult time re-arming - Gadaffi previously supplied them with a lot of guns and explosives, and he's no longer in a position to do so.

I don't know how much help they previously had from the Russians - but I do know that they had a LOT of help from the Germans back during WWI.

I think if the IRA surrendered their weapons they would be at the mercy of all the 'Loyalist' organisations - many of whos members have Firearms Certificates so that they can legally acquire weapons.

Interesting to note that about 11,000 people in NI have Firearm Certificates allowing them a pistol for self defense. Hanguns are illegal in the UK. NI is a very small place, if 11,000 people have handguns + the military and police, then the percentage of the population travelling armed must be higher than any State in the US. I'll bet not many are legally carried by Sinn Feinn officials !

And what about the bombing of Omough ( I might have spelled this wrong). What did that prove? Have you seen the pics? I have. Fucken disgusting! Detonating a bomb in the middle of a busy street, where the only casualties were the general populus. That takes a real group of heros to to that, doesn't it! How can any of you support an organisation who does this. Do you support the PLO in their suicide bombings on innocent civvies in Israel too? What about Tim McV? he had a cause (in his own mind). I am glad he is out of the picture now. Get a fucken grip.....

Attrocieties, one after another. All of our countries are guilty at one time or another. Every war has this. Look at the FRY. Thats bad too. And look at the UN, they are then worst!

Just turn the wpns in. They can always get more if they need em. The IRA wants a political settlement, now its the Real IRA who they reckon bombed London latley. Just a bunch of shit disturbers.

I have fam and friends there in N Ire, and they have had a gutful (both RC and Prosts). Some have migrated to Canada, and Australia, because they want to give their kids a chance to grow up with out fear. In reality, is that asking too much? I am pro gun, right winged as you can get, anti communist, etc, but I reckon the IRA and UDR etc should be disbanded, and disarmed. Full stop. Anyone who disagrees just wants the carnage to continue, and you are supporting it.

As we look at our countries today, sure in some ways they are fucked, but we still are free, and the past is the past. Many lives have been lost and damaged to get us where we are now. Your rights and freedoms have been paid by their sacrifice. Remember that too!

Attrocites with the Aboriginies here in Aussie was the past (pasification by force -bounties on their heads). It was bad, but better concoured by the English than the Dutch or Portugese, they would have killed the lot off.

What about the Wounded Knee, and the general slaughter of native Americans by the US Army in the 1800s?. The Battle of Batoche in Canada ( 1/2 breeds vs Canadian troops). Thats our history, our past, which has made our countries what they are today, and allows us to express ourselves on this forum without fear of being hunted down.

The past is the past. Negotiate for peace! Even the IRA wants this. Its the splinter groups which want to carry on the violence.

1feral1: you're talking about Omagh, and you're right, it was horrible. The Real IRA was out of their minds to do such a thing. They didn't want the peace deal to go through, and dont' want it to stand. Don't think I'm condoning or advocating such things when I say that the Provos need to hold onto their guns. Did you read my posts at all, or just spew into your keyboard without looking? I've got family in Tyrone, not far from Omagh, so don't tell me what's disgusting, or what I'm supporting. You don't want to go that route anyway, because I can match you atrocity for atrocity, believe me.

The British army and Special Branch and the UVF and the UFF and the UDR and the RUC have proven that they can't be trusted. Once all the promises are made and the IRA is disarmed, what do they do when the Protestant paramilitaries go out for a little payback, eh? Use harsh language and obscene hand gestures to defend themselves? Call the police? Bullshit! It'll be RUC telling the UVF where to find the lads they're after.

I'm not advocating any reign of Republican terror here, so don't put words in my mouth or try to get me to defend any carbombings. But the IRA would be out of their minds to trust [b]ANY[/b] government after the way the Irish have been treated in the North while the world watched and did nothing. The UN that wants to send in monitors for the Palestinians in Israel just stood by without an eyebrow raised. The US government that sent our lads to Bosnia and Rwanda just stood by without raising a peep. It's shameful, but it's the way it is, and you know it.

Tiochfaidh ar la

Mate, you are truly right, and all's I am saying is I do not agree with 'gun barrel diplomacy' in this case. I do not support Marxist States wherever.

I do however see your point, and undertand where you are coming from, and I respect that. Too bad we did not live closer. The we could go out to the range, and have a beer after.

All the best Jar,

Cheers and Beers
1feral1
Sydney

A few hundred rounds and a few beers after sounds like a great idea. Keep the beer cold and your bore shiny in case I get down to your hemisphere, partner.

And thanks.

Jarhead out.

No worries, Mate!

I am speaking of the INDIVIDUAL right to exist not a collective right to form armies and wage war on others. Regardless of your political views, race, religion or sexual preference, etc. EVERY human being has a Right to DEFEND themselves and their own!