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Posted: 11/21/2005 8:08:40 AM EDT
I got a call today that a Special Agent from the ATF recovered a rifle of mine that was stolen two years ago from my apartment. It was an SAR1. I also lost an H&K USP .45, but that is still missing. The agent bought the rifle from the bad guy, and now said bad guy is in federal prison. He said one thing that struck me as odd, but maybe it's not. He said that since I have been compensated by the NRA insurance program, I no longer have the right to recover my rifle. He was a nice guy, and said he would look into that rule for me, because he was new.
Is this true that once compensated by insurance, I am no longer eligible to recover my stolen property?
I have to call him back soon with insurance information, so any help would be great.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:10:08 AM EDT
I would guess you could give the NRA your money and it could be yours again.

How did you lose the HK?
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:12:41 AM EDT
That cant be true, the ATF has got to be pullin that out of his ass.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:12:42 AM EDT
or you could shut up and take the gun and keep the cash :)
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:14:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ring:
or you could shut up and take the gun and keep the cash :)



Yeah screw over the NRA
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:14:33 AM EDT
I call B.S., that is your weapon either way. That is between you and NRA insurance as to what to do with it.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:15:41 AM EDT
You have to pay the insurance company back, BUT it's NOT the ATF's job to worry about that. You get the weapon back, if you want it re insured, depending on the level of insurance you have with the NRA, you tell them you recovered it and they will want their money back. If it's not the level you have to report each weapon at, well, you know what to do.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:21:55 AM EDT
Once the insurance company pays you technically they own it.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:22:05 AM EDT
I would suspect that buried somewhere in the mumbo jumbo "small print" of the NRA insurance policy is a clause which states that if you accept payment you give up any claim to the rifle if it's ever recovered. Call the NRA and ask them.

I doubt the ATF is pulling anything "out of their ass". The ATF is responsible for returning stolen property to its rightful owner. It is doubtful that 2IDoc has any claim to the rifle at this point.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:22:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I would guess you could give the NRA your money and it could be yours again.

How did you lose the HK?



Plus that. Does he want to have it for himself (did he pay with personal or gov't funds?), or is maybe they want to destroy it / put it in service at some gov't agency or DOD.

And if it was stolen property, he/they should be able to get their funds back from the guy's legitimate assets.

It's your gun, unless your signed all rights over to the insurance company, which you might be able to undo. It would be simpler for them as opposed to their taking physical possesion and then selling it.

Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:23:54 AM EDT
That is determined by your insurance contract. You may be subrogated to the ins co (i.e., obliged to put them in line ahead of you for any recovery, including recovery of the property), but that has nothing to do with any 3d party. Now, ATF may have some chickenshit "policy," but they cannot constitutionally acquire the right to retain your property simply because it was insured.

Contact the insurance company and/or pull out your policy/find the master policy on the web.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:27:27 AM EDT
Yes, if you accept an insurance settlement for stolen property, you no longer have claim to said property. If recovered the property belongs to the insurane provider.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:27:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By Ring:
or you could shut up and take the gun and keep the cash :)



Yeah screw over the NRA



Yeah, I wouldn't want to screw over the NRA, especially after how well they treated me. They really took good care of me after this incident. The insurance was covered by a private company though. Honestly I don't want to commit insurance fraud. I'm basically a pretty law abiding kind of guy. I speed every now and then, and stuff like that, but I don't like the idea of breaking laws to gain financially from it.
He said that I don't get the gun back in a matter of fact way, and after I questioned it, he said he wasn't really sure. That's why I'm a little confused. I asked if all personal property was handled this way. At least he seemed willing to check on it. I give him credit for that. Anyway, I'm going to call the insurance company, because the ATF agent needed insurance info to continue the claim. The info was probably just to see if I had been compensated or not. We'll see.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:28:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Once the insurance company pays you technically they own it.

No they don't. That's the greatest myth behind insurance companies. After they pay you for your totaled out car they turn around and sell it without your permission for parts to a salvage yard and recoup up to a quarter of what they just paid you. Insurance companies are the most skilled lovers in the world, they can screw you in any position
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:33:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Once the insurance company pays you technically they own it.

No they don't. That's the greatest myth behind insurance companies. After they pay you for your totaled out car they turn around and sell it without your permission for parts to a salvage yard and recoup up to a quarter of what they just paid you. Insurance companies are the most skilled lovers in the world, they can screw you in any position



No it is not. If you take possession of a item the insurance company has paid you for you committing insurance fraud.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:35:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Once the insurance company pays you technically they own it.

No they don't. That's the greatest myth behind insurance companies. After they pay you for your totaled out car they turn around and sell it without your permission for parts to a salvage yard and recoup up to a quarter of what they just paid you. Insurance companies are the most skilled lovers in the world, they can screw you in any position



Careful, there. In Florida (and I assume most other states, since insurance companies pay top dollar for lobbyists everywhere) there is a statutory right of subrogation which secures the insurance company's interest in recoveries even if the contracts don't. The questions for the original poster are:

1. Does the contract provide for subrogation?

2. Does the governing law provide for subrogation even if the contract is silent?

3. Does the insurance company want to exercise that right, and if so, what will it cost to buy them off?

There's nothing sneaky or inappropriate about subrogation. You accept a payment that you agree makes you whole. Usually, there is a contract transferring title executed at the time of payment. Once you take the money, you are no longer "out" the property. In any event, when you buy the policy you give permission for the company to take title to any property it pays for ("totals"). Why should you get the cash and the property too? Furthermore, it's almost always right there in the contract in black & white when you buy the policy.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:35:30 AM EDT
The gun belongs to the insurance company. They paid for it. Normaly you can return the money and keep the stolen item.Keeping the gun and not telling the ins. company would be insurance fraud.Think about it, if it went to court the jury would see a report you signed saying the gun was stolen and a cancelled check the ins co. wrote you and you in possesion of the gun.

Besides do you wanna be a low life theif like the ones that stole your gun in the first place? I thought not. Call the ins co and tell them what is going on. They don't want possesion of a gun and will be glad to get there money back
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:38:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Once the insurance company pays you technically they own it.

No they don't. That's the greatest myth behind insurance companies. After they pay you for your totaled out car they turn around and sell it without your permission for parts to a salvage yard and recoup up to a quarter of what they just paid you. Insurance companies are the most skilled lovers in the world, they can screw you in any position



What in the Hell are you talking about?
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:40:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ring:
or you could shut up and take the gun and keep the cash :)



and face charges of theft.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:49:04 AM EDT
O.K., I contacted AGIA, the NRA's insurance company.(I wouldn't commit insurance fraud guys)
They were very understanding and helpful. They said that they would start the process of retrieving my file, and they would contact me about the claim(amount paid and so on). They said that I could purchase the rifle back from them at the price they paid me for it. They suggested I examine it first and decide whether or not I still want to buy it back.
Sounds reasonable enough. The only catch is, I have to go inspect the rifle in New Jersey(where it was confiscated), then pay the insurance company, then they submit a release to the ATF, and then I can take custody of the firearm. That sounds like two trips to NJ(a socialist hellhole where I can't CCW) to re-purchase a used and abused SAR-1.
At least the booger eating goblins that stole the thing are in pound me in the ass prison. That put a smile on my face. I love it when the goodguys win. Kudos to the ATF for zapping the bad guys. That's the job they are supposed to do. It's a huge relief to me knowing my rifle isn't out there shooting up a bus full of nuns.
Now where could my H&K USP have gotten too? I'm sure the guy that got busted was not the thief. I bet the original thief still has my sweetheart of a pistol. It had a bunch of 12 round mags too, at a time when they were still pre-ban.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:50:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 8:59:21 AM EDT by jpman7]

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Once the insurance company pays you technically they own it.

+1


Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
No they don't. That's the greatest myth behind insurance companies. After they pay you for your totaled out car they turn around and sell it without your permission for parts to a salvage yard and recoup up to a quarter of what they just paid you. Insurance companies are the most skilled lovers in the world, they can screw you in any position


Uh, I don't even know where to start on this one?! When the insurance company pays you for a total loss, you sign over the title when you get your check. What do you think they are going to do with it? Besides after you get your money what do you care what they do with THEIR vehicle. Now most of the time you have the option of buying your vehicle back, at the same salvage price that they will get for it at the salvage auction. How do you see this as being screwed?
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:51:07 AM EDT
Sounds like the ATF is overstepping his bounds a little on that issue. Get your gun back.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:51:39 AM EDT
I don't know what the laws are, or what either the NRA or ATFs official position on this, but if you accepted the insurance companies compensation for something, then that thing is rightfully theirs.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:52:14 AM EDT
Guess it's an Arkansas thing, I've totaled a car which I kept after getting into it with my insurance company, and then it was confirmed by my uncle the insurance agent, that they are paying you to replace it, if it's stolen and you recover, you relinquish the property or pay them back but it's your choice and if it's damaged beyond repair then they are paying you for replacement, NOT buying yours at fair market value for the same model undamaged as they'd have you believe. I guess it could vary state to state.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:57:32 AM EDT
Post in the NJ hometown forum for a member to take a power of attorney from you and go inspect the rifle on your behalf.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:03:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 9:05:00 AM EDT by danpass]

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Post in the NJ hometown forum for a member to take a power of attorney from you and go inspect the rifle on your behalf.



very +1


eta: Take a bunch of pics too.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:10:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Post in the NJ hometown forum for a member to take a power of attorney from you and go inspect the rifle on your behalf.



Great idea! Didn't realize that was an option. I guess that's why you get the big bucks.
I could ask my Father in law to go look. He's in NJ. Power of attorney eh? Do I need a lawyer to do that? Is it expensive?
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:10:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
I got a call today that a Special Agent from the ATF recovered a rifle of mine that was stolen two years ago from my apartment. It was an SAR1. I also lost an H&K USP .45, but that is still missing. The agent bought the rifle from the bad guy, and now said bad guy is in federal prison. He said one thing that struck me as odd, but maybe it's not. He said that since I have been compensated by the NRA insurance program, I no longer have the right to recover my rifle. He was a nice guy, and said he would look into that rule for me, because he was new.
Is this true that once compensated by insurance, I am no longer eligible to recover my stolen property?
I have to call him back soon with insurance information, so any help would be great.


Contact your insurance company.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:17:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Post in the NJ hometown forum for a member to take a power of attorney from you and go inspect the rifle on your behalf.



Great idea! Didn't realize that was an option. I guess that's why you get the big bucks.
I could ask my Father in law to go look. He's in NJ. Power of attorney eh? Do I need a lawyer to do that? Is it expensive?



No lawyer necessary. Its merely a form.

Make sure that it is limited to: "inspecting and recovering the firearm" or similar. Otherwise its pure and simple 'power of attorney' ie. anything you want to do.

emailing you sample
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:19:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Post in the NJ hometown forum for a member to take a power of attorney from you and go inspect the rifle on your behalf.



Great idea! Didn't realize that was an option. I guess that's why you get the big bucks.
I could ask my Father in law to go look. He's in NJ. Power of attorney eh? Do I need a lawyer to do that? Is it expensive?



No lawyer necessary. Its merely a form.

Make sure that it is limited to: "inspecting and recovering the firearm" or similar. Otherwise its pure and simple 'power of attorney' ie. anything you want to do.

emailing you sample



Outstanding! Thank you sir. (2IDdoc tips hat)
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:23:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tripledouble:

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
I got a call today that a Special Agent from the ATF recovered a rifle of mine that was stolen two years ago from my apartment. It was an SAR1. I also lost an H&K USP .45, but that is still missing. The agent bought the rifle from the bad guy, and now said bad guy is in federal prison. He said one thing that struck me as odd, but maybe it's not. He said that since I have been compensated by the NRA insurance program, I no longer have the right to recover my rifle. He was a nice guy, and said he would look into that rule for me, because he was new.
Is this true that once compensated by insurance, I am no longer eligible to recover my stolen property?
I have to call him back soon with insurance information, so any help would be great.


Contact your insurance company.



It almost sounds like the agent wants it for himself. I used to know a couple of officer who did a lot of dealing (handguns, vehicles, etc.) as a sideline, watching the dept auctions, etc.

Interesting thought: What if the guy added some nice accessories for you? We can dream, can't we? The inspection is a great idea, considering how much it's been around - you wouldn't expect ATF to buy you a case to keep it from getting scratched, just exercise their normal care, which could depend on the individual(s).
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:25:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:
Sounds like the ATF is overstepping his bounds a little on that issue. Get your gun back.



WTF? He sold the rights to the rifle. The ins. company OWNS it now. It's the ATF's job to return it to the OWNER. Would you like it if the cops returned your property to anyone but you?
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:29:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:37:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Post in the NJ hometown forum for a member to take a power of attorney from you and go inspect the rifle on your behalf.



Great idea! Didn't realize that was an option. I guess that's why you get the big bucks.
I could ask my Father in law to go look. He's in NJ. Power of attorney eh? Do I need a lawyer to do that? Is it expensive?



No lawyer necessary. Its merely a form.

Make sure that it is limited to: "inspecting and recovering the firearm" or similar. Otherwise its pure and simple 'power of attorney' ie. anything you want to do.

emailing you sample



Outstanding! Thank you sir. (2IDdoc tips hat)



need your email (IM me or sumptin). I is being just a 'member'
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:41:02 AM EDT
Ever smash a car? You have the 1st right of refusal to buy it back for salvage! Same thing should apply!
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:46:38 AM EDT
Just like when a stolen car is paid off by the insurance co. the rifle now belongs to the NRA or who ever paid the insurance claim.
You are not entitled to be paid and the rifle and it is at the discretion of the insurer who gets the stolen property and to what end you might have to repay them.
They are entitled to interest on the amount paid plus the original sum.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:48:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VLODPG:
Ever smash a car? You have the 1st right of refusal to buy it back for salvage! Same thing should apply!



Not true, it varies from co. to co. and from state to state
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:57:08 AM EDT
I believe that once you accepted the insurance money it is too late. You may ask the ATF if there is a way you can buy it back.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 10:09:04 AM EDT
He has already posted that the insurer has offered him the option of inspecting (in NJ) the rifle and buying it for the amount of the original claim. That is quite fair. The ATF is obliged to deliver the rifle to the entity that hold leagl title to it - in this case the insurer, who paid the owner (thread originator) for his loss and "made him whole".

Subject to the inspection - its a story with a good ending.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 12:16:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 1:01:19 PM EDT by txgp17]

Originally Posted By FunYun1983:

Originally Posted By txgp17:
Sounds like the ATF is overstepping his bounds a little on that issue. Get your gun back.

WTF? He sold the rights to the rifle. The ins. company OWNS it now. It's the ATF's job to return it to the OWNER. Would you like it if the cops returned your property to anyone but you?

I fail to see how the insurance company is considered the owner now. If they are the owners then they have engaged in the business of buying firearms, they knowing offered to purchase a firearm in the event it was stolen and later returned, and they are making a business out of doing so. I seriously doubt they have a FFL and there surely wasn't a 4473 filed/completed on this so called "transaction", so the whole ownership thing sounds bogus to me. If the insurance company wants to lay claim to the cash (and a fair interest rate) then that sounds completely fair, but they don't have ownership "rights" to that firearm. Especially to one that is no longer produced. That gives it special treatment under the eyes of the law, I don't remember the term used, but we studied it in Business Law in college. Like if someone steals your 1943 Chevrolet truck, first off they aren't making 43' trucks anymore, and they hard to come by in the first place since production was so focused on military stuff for the war. In this way a HK SAR1 is looked at differently than say a Bushmaster XM15 manufactured in 2004.

I'm not an insurance or ATF agent, and I don't play one on TV either, but I don't think he sold the "RIGHTS" to the rifle as you describe. The agreement is to pay the purchaser of the policy a set amount in the event that the property is lost. Not to buy the ownership rights to it if it's lost. Although the details will vary greatly from state to state, from company to company, and from policy to policy.

I've already been through this myself. Had a GLOCK 20 stolen in the mid 90's, it was recovered in a drug bust in the late 90's. Someone from the local courthouse called to tell my pistol was recovered and that I could come pick it up. When I got the to courthouse everyone wanted to play Sgt. Schultz and claim they didn't know anything about it. I called the local PD, I called every dept and division in the .gov that I could, and no one knew anything about my lost pistol. This went on for weeks. The reason I wanted it back so bad was that it had a pre-ban NFML 15 round magazine, and 10mm GLOCK mags like that were selling for $100+ at the time. I'm convinced that some dirty cop wanted to keep it for himself, and had plans on doing so until someone came asking about it.

I finally had to resort to the good ol' boy system to get my gun. I called a friend who plays Golf with the Police chief, and he called in favor. 3 days later I had my gun, and it's magazine too. Did I tell the insurance company? No.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 12:22:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
No they don't. That's the greatest myth behind insurance companies. After they pay you for your totaled out car they turn around and sell it without your permission for parts to a salvage yard and recoup up to a quarter of what they just paid you. Insurance companies are the most skilled lovers in the world, they can screw you in any position



Huh? They sell it for parts because it is their property to dispose of as they see fit, after settling your claim.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:04:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sven:
I call B.S., that is your weapon either way. That is between you and NRA insurance as to what to do with it.


+1, except for the underlined part. It is *either* your's or the NRA's, IIRC.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:09:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rxdawg:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
No they don't. That's the greatest myth behind insurance companies. After they pay you for your totaled out car they turn around and sell it without your permission for parts to a salvage yard and recoup up to a quarter of what they just paid you. Insurance companies are the most skilled lovers in the world, they can screw you in any position



Huh? They sell it for parts because it is their property to dispose of as they see fit, after settling your claim.

That's the thing, it's NOT their property, at least in Arkansas. They'll take it because chances are the person won't say anything, like I've said, I've done it before. I got 2 extra jeep spare wheels after my wrangler got hit and the insurance company wanted to keep them. One of em was good enough to be put on vehicle still, it only had a small scratch in it, no dice, those were mine and they remained mine until I sold one for scrap, and had a tire mounted on the good one and replaced the spare.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:10:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 1:11:53 PM EDT by lonegunman]
www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/SectionIII.pdf

According to page three paragraph XV, "there can be no abandonment to Underwriters of any property." That means that your gun is still yours. Since you got you gun replaced and it is probably a hunk of crap now,,I'd contact the underwriter for disposition and offer to turn it over to them. In any case,,I'd make those fuckers return it to somebody.

The ATF thug is simply trying to trick you into siging a letter of abandonment so they can either, A. keep it for himself, B. use it as a drop gun at a future crime scene or C. use it as a prop for anti-gun politicians to fondle. None of the choices are good for the rest of us,,,go get your damn gun.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:19:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tripledouble:

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
I got a call today that a Special Agent from the ATF recovered a rifle of mine that was stolen two years ago from my apartment. It was an SAR1. I also lost an H&K USP .45, but that is still missing. The agent bought the rifle from the bad guy, and now said bad guy is in federal prison. He said one thing that struck me as odd, but maybe it's not. He said that since I have been compensated by the NRA insurance program, I no longer have the right to recover my rifle. He was a nice guy, and said he would look into that rule for me, because he was new.
Is this true that once compensated by insurance, I am no longer eligible to recover my stolen property?
I have to call him back soon with insurance information, so any help would be great.


Contact your insurance company.



Boy, you sure did read the thread!
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:21:47 PM EDT
IF you were paid in full , you probably dont want it back anyway.

Who know what its been through , left outside, abused etc.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:23:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rkbar15:
I would suspect that buried somewhere in the mumbo jumbo "small print" of the NRA insurance policy is a clause which states that if you accept payment you give up any claim to the rifle if it's ever recovered. Call the NRA and ask them.

I doubt the ATF is pulling anything "out of their ass". The ATF is responsible for returning stolen property to its rightful owner. It is doubtful that 2IDoc has any claim to the rifle at this point.





According to the ATF, the baby below has a machine gun in it's mouth.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:26:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AMZ:
IF you were paid in full , you probably dont want it back anyway.

Who know what its been through , left outside, abused etc.



Thats what I was thinking too. Also reminds me that I still need to put my serial's down somewhere
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:31:54 PM EDT
I find the "the hell with the insurance policy I signed and ditto for the settlement I received (and signed) - I want the insurance company's money AND the gun too" seat-of-the pants reasoning to be amusing.

Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:33:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:


According to the ATF, the baby below has a machine gun in it's mouth.
www.thezone.org/kellan/shoestring.jpg



That's funny but we're talking about returning stolen property to its lawful owner and not machine guns.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:35:25 PM EDT
Once an insurance company pays you for the item, they are now the responsible party for the stolen item. they are considered the owner of it now. If you get the gun back you are commiting fraud since you nolonger own the gun
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