User Panel
Posted: 11/14/2005 9:28:09 PM EDT
You really need to read these five articles. And pass them on to everyone you know, and especally those who while about how we "just need to get out of that shithole"...
1. Steven Den Bestes "Strategic Overview" written way back in September of 2003, still remarkably valid. 2. The blogger known as "Tigerhawk" produced this "Annotated Version of Den Bestes Strategic Overview" which takes into account the events of the last two years since the original work was written. 3. American Digests essay The First Terrorist War from October 2003, also still extremely relevant. 4. Wretcherd of the Belmont Club's "The Three Conjectures" also from September 2003 on how Al Qaida has perminently changed the threshold for a Nuclear conflict. 5. The short Postscript to the article above, written a couple weeks later |
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I'm no longer concerned with why we're fighting, or even who we're fighting for that matter.
I'm concerned with how we're going to pay for it. |
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The same way most Americans pay for Christmas: by going into massive debt. |
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And just like most Americans, theres comes a point where you get too far into debt. America cant just declare bankruptcy, unlike you or I. |
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uhh....yeah they can. In fact we have absolved ourselves from all owed debts before (what like after american revolution..or was it 1812?). |
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That would do wonders in keeping our international trade partners now wouldnt it. Whether we choose to admit it or not, we truly live in a global economy. And if we piss off enough people, they can tell us to pound sand and all the tanks in the world wont mean a damn thing. |
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How did we pay for World War II. |
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With a dollar backed by gold. Not with credit from the Chinese. |
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from tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2005/11/strategic-overview-annotating-and.html Thank you for providing the illustration Specop_007 Oh, and we were already off the gold standard, in World War II had been since June 1933. A good thing as there was not enough gold, nor gold production, to support the war effort much less the economy that boomed afterward. |
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Its not a matter of whether or not I WANT to afford it, or whether or not I WANT to pay for it.
Its a matter of we CANT afford it. We cannot afford to keep dumping BILLIONS of dollars into fighting wars. At some point, the money runs out. Its really very, very basic and simple economics. I appreciate you argueing we need yo go here and there and everywhere, but simple economics says we cannot afford to keep doing it. Its that simple. Sure, it sounds great, Its looks good on paper. Go here and kick terrorist ass, go there and kick terrorist ass, move over there and remove dicator etc etc. But at some point, the piper must be paid for the tune he plays. America as a nation is already ass deep to a tall indian in debt. When the tab comes, we aint gonna be able to cover it. Unless of course you think we can just print our way out of it, but I dont really look forward to runaway inflation and a dollar value dropping like a rock. Al Queda is absolutely right. They can win by "outfinancing" us. They find a recrtuit who fights for free and brought his own AK. We have a soldier that we spent hundreds of thousands to train, equip, ship and support. |
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But there is no other alternative so... Also spending on defense has continued to fall in the four years since 9/11, seen www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2005919049.asp that means there is a lot of stuff to be cut if cash were to be a problem. |
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Your right. Telling the ME to piss off, developing our own energy sources or buying from non ME countries......God forbid. Granted, the American Public might have to make some sacrafices (You know, what they did in WWII....) and we cant have that. Its our RIGHT to drive ridiculously oversized inefficient vehicles, and our RIGHT to keep our thermostat on 80 during the winter and on 60 in the summer, and our RIGHT to have 9 bulbs over the kitchen table and 8 in the bathroom. The reason we cant win is because America has forgotten the words "sacrafice" in terms of our daily lives. Today, we think of sacrafice as a soldier giving his life for his country. And it is, God knows. But to ME, sacrafice is giving up the Expedition for a Jetta and switching out to efficient bulbs (And less of them) and wearing a sweater in the winter so an American soldier doesnt have to go overseas. As such, we're in a war we cannot win. We either lose by not destroying the enemy (Which technically we may never fully accomplish) or we lose by destroying our economy in trying to acheive success in an unwinnable war. So, what you say is absolutely right. We have no choice. |
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That's nice, but we are not operating with a one for one exchange rate. We kill at least 20 of theirs for every one of ours. Also, we won't have the large footprint in Iraq forever.
I consider those five linked esays mandatory reading. |
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Megalomania is an unrealistic belief in one's superiority, grandiose abilities, and even omnipotence. It is characterized by a need for total power and control over others, and is marked by a lack of empathy for anything that is perceived as not feeding the self.
It is characterized by extremely low self-esteem, which is compensated for by delusions of grandeur and megalomania, a narcissistic neuroses. With the propensity to act only on behalf of one's self, the unbridled need to feed one's ego, and the objectification of others to serve the power-hungry needs of megalomania, it is easy to see how this can be a recipe for disaster. They objectify, then sacrifice their victims to exercise total control with a complete lack of empathy for the suffering of others. Among fundamentalists, and politicians we find those who view themselves as morally superior with the willingness to sacrifice, kill or risk the safety of others considered inferior, to assert their own agendas. They talk about unrealistic plans and goals as if these plans and goals are within their grasp. Megalomania can all be treated with medications. If you or someone you know is experiencing unrealistic delusions or antisocial behavior, treatment is necessary. |
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Which means fuck all if they can just waltz the next 19 terrorists right across our border. |
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The need for more border security does not invalidate what is written in those articles. We need to wall off the border AND we need to eliminate Islamic terror. Getting rid of Islamic terror makes border security easier, but there would still be a need for a border fence and a real border police. NOT getting rid of Islami terror would DEMAND a border wall and large border police and it probably would still eventually fail.. They are interrelated- but NOT interdependent- issues. |
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So essentially we're throwing billions of dollars right down the toilet for the simple reason that we refuse to secure our own border. |
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Look at a map. We need perminant bases in the region. also:
For more details see Sections VI and VIII of the Original and Updated Strategic Overviews. |
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"Securing" the border without prosecuting the war would also be throwing away billions down the toilet.
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Andy
If Iran already has nukes, and I do not beleve they do, then we must invade Iran which REQUIRES Iraq as well as Afghanistan and the ocean as routes to invade. Same with Syria. Attacks from the sea alone could be countered simply by retreating inland and trading space for time. With the US in Iraq and Afganistan heavy ground forces have direct access from multple directions, they cannot simply retreat inland and trade space for time. There is no geography to keep US heavy divisions from driving through Syria or Iran if they start in Iraq. Isreal cannot be used always as a base for attack, not yet, because the Arab public still has not unlearned the anti-Jewish propaganda. |
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ooooookay.
Who said we had to conduct a massive ground invasion to halt nuclear development? Here's a little reality check I think you need to make. Listen to a copy of the President'saddress he made right before the war began. Write down why he says we're invading Iraq. Then get a current speech or public response to the same question and compare notes. |
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Are you smoking crack. You are obviously very unaware of just how mountainous the border region between Iran and Iraq is. The same goes for the Iranian border with Afghanistan. |
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Ouch, a painful reality. The 90's were good to the Chicoms |
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I think it would be awesome that instead of invading other countries that had nothing to do with 9/11, we moved all ground forces into Afghanistan to finish the FIRST fucking mission we had laid out, to find and remove Osama and his top guys.
Then, return home and dump all the money into better airport security systems, better border patrol, a fucking car that doesn't run on gasoline, a fucking REAL border with Canada and Mexico that is heavily policed, and a more improved CIA that can infiltrate Al Queda worldwide and call in precision SF-raids or tactical air-strikes. We're in Iraq right now because of oil and Rumsfeld should have been fired for not having a post-invasion insurgency plan and more troops on the ground there initially to stem the flow from Syria and Iran. We're so fucked it isn't even funny. No oil flowing because of daily sabotage, massive debt building, loss of troops, more instability, dropping morale, waning domestic support, and the list goes on. ETA: It's disgusting that people who have nothing to do with the war seem to think we have unlimited money, troops and support to just go around invading other countries on a whim. It's rediculous. Hell we can't even make our military recruit quotas. I think people that say these things need to go experience a year in Iraq, away from their comfortable little homes and families and then come back and say that crap. ETA: I 100% support our troops, this is just my "perfect world" opinion of what we should do or should've done. As it stands now I think our President should heed the advice of the CIA situation reports and the Generals on the ground, if they say it is becoming a lost cause then we need to hand it over to the Iraqi military and perform only air-support. The biggest problem was/is the border with Iran and Syria, and Iraq may be a lost cause already... - rem |
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Damn, your one brave sonofabitch to say that here....... I'll let you use my flame suit. |
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Hey, I'm as gungho as anyone else here but I don't appreciate being lied to about why we went into Iraq, especially with all our other problems in America. Richest nation in the world yet we can't get healthcare subsidized by the govt? Subject to one of the largest terrorist attacks known in history and yet we have a completely open border to both the north and south? Billions of dollars continually spent to support a war that cant even drop our fuel prices and get a working pipeline going? I knew there were no WMD going in to Iraq, but I figured we would at least have such a force that would seal the borders and quickly promote rebuilding and restructuring. This govt is clueless, they have left a lot of our guys swinging in the wind because of it. I mean North Korea has one of the most opressive and insane governments in the world yet of course we didn't invade them right? We just pissed them off worse by the new administration not continuing their deal concerning the nuclear reactors, and calling them part of the axis of evil. Smart. This administration should have finished what was started in Afghanistan and then focused on rebuilding OUR nation, not someone else's. - rem |
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Your not going to finish anything in Afganistan by moving in more US troops. There are several reasons. 1 Terrain-Whole divisions can be swallowed up by the rugged terrain. Simply moving in more troops is not the answer. 2. The bad guys use the Pakistan border to their advantage. They move in across the border and back. 3. We cannot invade Pakistan because if the present government falls you are turning over nukes to the terrorists. |
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One of the major problems I have with this war in Iraq is that the outcome is being based on faith in the Iraqi people to govern themselves in a quasi-democracy. I do not have that faith in those people. And because I don't have faith in the Iraqi people, I believe the debt we are running up is WAY too much. I'd like to see us finish cleaning house in Afghanistan. I'd like to see us wrap it up quickly in Iraq and have these people show a little appreciation for our effort, say...$250 billion in oil. I'd also like us to invest a lot more in securing our home. This bullshit of unchecked ILLEGAL immigration has got to end. Our fighting men and women have done their job and done it well. At some point we are going to have to say enough is enough with the spending in a region that has NEVER been able to approach anything that resembled civilization. As I said before, I simply do not have faith in these people as a whole. Sooner or later, those who desire a life of freedom will have to step up to the plate and bat for themselves. I see fear being stronger than a desire for freedom in much of that region. They are not earning their freedom, the US is handing it to them. Two things result from this, they don't really understand the price of freedom, and the bullies will be there waiting for them when the US leaves. Just my opinion.
Oh, also...one thing that I asked a few weeks back is does anyone even know if OBL is even still alive? That question was posed a few days after the earthquake in Pakistan. Blake |
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+1 googolplex |
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Yes, those are good points and are correct, but how many troops do we have up near the Pakistan border looking for Osama? Surely there can be some military moves we can make up there to shut down some of those strongholds they operate out of. What about gunships? Drones? How much effort is still being made up there? Seems to me we gave up pretty early on, and for what reason? We quickly shifted the focus to Iraq, while everyone was still on the patriotic-avenge-911 bandwagon. It was a very clever move by the Bush administration. Not a good day to die - the untold story of operation anaconda That book has a lot of good information on how strapped a lot of guys in charge were on the ground in Afghanistan and how there was a lack of direction and unity in the search for Osama, fall of the Taliban and all that. It really seems like this administration was not at all committed to exacting justice for 9/11 against those responsible. I've heard discussions that claimed 12,000-15,000 troops are injured to the point of not returning to action. Is that really worth it for Iraq? When you lose an arm or a leg, you have a lot of time to sit there and reflect on your past and future, and I have to wonder if those brave guys ever question what the hell we are doing over there now. I know soldiers have to find something to fight for, whether it is just the people in their sector getting caught in the crossfire, or wanting to meet the enemy face to face, but the overall picture of why we are still in Iraq given everything we know now is very bleak. - rem |
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... We need to stay in Iraq, we need to finish the job.
... But our policy on how to accomplish it requires a serious rethinking. We got too preoccupied with the notion we need to "win the hearts and minds" and media perception - our enemies know that. ... Wars aren't won pussy-footing and tiptoeing in localized skirmishes. The war would be better managed if we had men that subscribed to the philosophies combining the likes of General "Black Jack" Pershing, Sun Tzu and George Patton. And an Administration that let them do the job they're hires to. |
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Operation Anaconda didnt go well. We thought we could trust the Northern Alliance and Bin Laden bought out a few of them and slipped over the border from what I have heard. According to Col Hunt on Fox news the Marines should of been used instead of the 10th Mountain. The 10th Mountain siezed the low terrain and got pinned down immediately. They should of taken the highest terrain and then fought down. This was poor military tactics by the commander on the scene. This was Hunts analysis of the battle. The US military has learned a lot since then about fighting in Afganistan. The terrorists are actually pretty much been downgraded to operating on foot or a donkey. No vehicles at all. Bin Ladin if he is alive isnt going to go out on operations and risk getting smoked by our military. He is going to stay in Pakistan in the Frontier providence and sent other people across the border to do his bidding. |
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"Take More countries?"
I didn't know we were "taking" anything. No wonder we're seen as imperialists. |
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Again, good points, I just still feel cheated by Bush and the fact that bin Laden's head wasn't on a stick at the end of it. I could give a shit less about Saddam, he was just a sabre-rattling old fool. Hell, he never even gassed the Kurds, it was fucking Iran and everyone in the "know" knows that. That's why his trial is bullshit and they are finding it hard to charge him with anything more than just some death warrants he signed, which he had every right to do since it was his country and there were some reasons for them. Personally I feel like Saddam is going to have a nasty "accident" of some sorts before the trial ends. He's going to die suspiciously and no one will hear his side of the story. - rem |
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The largest problem with Anaconda was a situation very similar to the Battle of the Little Bighorn. Everyone was more concerned with not making contact with the enemy than what we would do if we did make contact with them. Rushed planning, jumping on bad intel without waiting for corroberation from recconnassance. And a good bit of not having fully shaken off the rust in transitioning from a peacetime to a wartime army. Thats what I got from my reading... And we certainly have not "given up" on tracking down Al Qaida and bin Laden in Pakistan. Unfortunately we have not "given up" on Musharrif yet either... and HE and his patchwork goverment we keep propping up soley because if it falls somone else might get to their nuclear weapons before we do... or at least thats the way it seems. |
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Sounds like a recipe for eternal war at a huge cost in lives… for what? to bring 'democracy' at the the point of a gun to people who don't want it? |
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It's a very well-spoken article that evokes a lot of feeling but the point is we are in Iraq because of a lie. We were there to prevent Saddam from giving WMD to terrorists or possibly launching WMD at America. It all turned out to be bogus intel that the Bush administration knew about. There was obviously an ulterior motive and several from the administration have said that they had a plan before 9/11 happened to go into Iraq. The civil war was a war that was very important and a war worth fighting. So was WW2, we had no choice. But with Iraq, we invaded a country based on a lie, and now we find ourselves bogged down in a quagmire of guerilla warfare, with an almost unseen enemy that attacks us at will, breaking our morale and holding up peace and reconstruction. We stay, we lose or our country goes broke. We back-out and it becomes a big vacuum, sucking up the enemy to take over and gain a larger foothold. We BROUGHT the enemy to Iraq. We need more support from other countries and they are unwilling to give it. Our military is stretched thin. We are caught in a very bad spot because of Bush.
- rem
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we don't even take care of our own country. the LAST thing we need to do is invade more. in the past four years, i've come to believe we are a bigger threat to ourselves (illegal immigration, out of control welfare, absurd spending) than any foreign country would be. |
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The word is 'very mountainous' some of the worst terrain in the world…murderously hot in summer, bitterly cold in winter. And presumably in this 'Master Plan' the Iranian Army will stand up like 9 pins to be bowled over too, just like the Mujahaddin did in Iraq? They have a large and battle tested army that knows it's stuff and has reasonably good equipment and know how to use it. Saadam thought the Iranians would be a push over, and look how wrong he was. You have to give the Iranians credit for being fiercely brave and tenacious fighters. Once more… Iranians ARE NOT ARABS! They are a long standing 'martial race' who were fighting wars of Empire in that region when Europeans were still wearing animal skins and living in mud huts… ANdy |
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The people who scream with joy each time a terrorist executes a successful attack HAVE TO BE SILENCED. They are the ones offering the very highest status their Islamic-based culture can offer--kill ten terrorists and there are ten more eager to stand in the spotlight of highest status. One way or another, that terrorist-goading culture has to be modified or naturally, these attacks won't stop...ever.
There's a hard way and an easy way to silence those crowds: The easy way is to kill them on a sudden, sustained, and massive scale; making them realize that there will be none of them left in the end to remember how brave and defiant there people were as they fought The Great Satan, thereby taking the violent wind out of their cultural sails. The hard way is to invade their homelands while avoiding killing them as much as possible. For this to work, the invaders have to bring with them a better way of life--at least a tolerable way--but also bringing with them the political will and clear intention of a long term occupation; several successive generations--sort of the Roman way. A long term occupation after a realtively bloodless invasion will have a chance of succeeding so that today's six-year-olds can pursue that better way of life with the occupation forces protect him from the adults who would rather their children die than yield to Satan's ways. Then, that six-year-old's children will need to be protected from his peers, whose parents were successful in shielding their children from exposure to The Great Satan's ways. Slowly, after a few generations, those exposed to the better way will out-number the fanatics; they will be educated; they will understand--indeed they will know that this better way should be protected, and will act to preserve that better life themselves with their treasure and blood. Deceptively simple. Kissing their asses cannot possibly work on peoples who only have respect for the might of the iron fist. |
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Another contribution from someone who knows exactly nothing about Afghanistan. |
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