Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 11/14/2005 11:13:54 AM EDT
I've checked the web and cannot find anything to verify this but I wanted to ask here as well. A friend of mine (who is not a gun shop commando nor a bullshitter) when he found out I was buying an NJ trooper P7M8 told me I was nuts because the NJ state police stopped using them because a few of their guys were shot in the leg when grabbing the pistol from the holster. He did not have specifics but it was something about the way the gun is set up it will go BANG when you squueze the cocker on the grip -even without pulling the trigger. The cocker was actually firing the round. Anyone ever hear of this issue or something even remotely like it? One of the main reasons I am buying the P7 is that it's the one gun I don't have a fear of having one in the chamber.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:17:21 AM EDT
Pretty sure thats bs, have herd various "STORYS" my self as to why they stopped using them, but i think it came down to S&W giving away their handguns.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:18:34 AM EDT
I think that the answer to your question lies in the fact that the human hand does not “like” to squeeze just the bottom three fingers.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:21:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I've checked the web and cannot find anything to verify this but I wanted to ask here as well. A friend of mine (who is not a gun shop commando nor a bullshitter) when he found out I was buying an NJ trooper P7M8 told me I was nuts because the NJ state police stopped using them because a few of their guys were shot in the leg when grabbing the pistol from the holster. He did not have specifics but it was something about the way the gun is set up it will go BANG when you squueze the cocker on the grip -even without pulling the trigger. The cocker was actually firing the round. Anyone ever hear of this issue or something even remotely like it? One of the main reasons I am buying the P7 is that it's the one gun I don't have a fear of having one in the chamber.

Thanks!



Impossible.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:22:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
One of the main reasons I am buying the P7 is that it's the one gun I don't have a fear of having one in the chamber.


Why?

Because a live round in the chamber is safer due to the fact that the firing pin isn't at tension?

If that's your requirement, you my friend need a Glock.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:23:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 11:24:54 AM EDT by LVMIKE]
It will fire (or so I'm told) very eisily if you are holding the trigger when you pull the cocker. Sorta like flipping off the saftey on a Remington 700, with your finger on the trigger. It probably reduces the trigger pull greatly or the striker just slips over the sear (bad terminology?).
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:24:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 11:26:21 AM EDT by Dolomite]
Off course it will go off if you're squeezing both the grip and the trigger, just like the 1911, just like the XD.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:25:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 11:31:51 AM EDT by LVMIKE]

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
Off course it will go off if you're squeezing both the grip and the trigger, just like the 1911, just like the XD.



How many people would realise they did this if they were being careless in the first place, though? My take is that it isn't really squeezing, but even resting your finger on it. My 700 will go off EASY with the stock trigger, if I lightly rest my finger on the trigger and disengage the saftey. Could be because the pull is almost nothing with the saftey on (the 700). My P7 should be here this week.

Edit wars!
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:26:56 AM EDT

Why?

Because a live round in the chamber is safer due to the fact that the firing pin isn't at tension?

If that's your requirement, you my friend need a Glock.



Couple reasons really. Honestly, I like the way the Glock feels in my hand but the Kaboom factor is for me a very real factor. Second, the HK P7 can't be beat accuracy wise out of the box. Third and most important, I just really like that safety system. Kinda hard to accidentally fire that gun, unless what my buddy said is true, which I cannot believe but who knows. Anything's posible.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:30:11 AM EDT

It will fire (or so I'm told) very eisily if you are holding the trigger when you pull the cocker.


Maybe this is what he was talking about?
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:30:59 AM EDT
I recomend posting this over at www.hkpro.com for an unbiased opinion. <--extreem sarcasum
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:33:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LVMIKE:

y...o...u... a...ss...



What tha?

I'll report you!
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:34:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

It will fire (or so I'm told) very eisily if you are holding the trigger when you pull the cocker.


Maybe this is what he was talking about?



ANY gun fires when you pull the trigger... I've heard stories about Glocks being dangerous for the same reason, but it all boils down to poor gun safety/trigger discipline.



Honestly, I like the way the Glock feels in my hand but the Kaboom factor is for me a very real factor.



Seriously?
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:37:02 AM EDT
Yes, a P7 will fire if both the trigger and grip are squeezed, regardless of the order in which these controls are actuated. It will NOT fire with only the grip depressed unless there are broken or missing parts in the trigger or striker mechanisms, and I'm not sure if even that is possible since I don't think it could even cock the striker if that was the case.

I found with a little practice that it was very easy to control the weapon. It's probably not a good weapon for the clueless however.

If you find any good deals on M8's let me know, I'd like to find a good used one at a reasonable price. (yeah I know... )
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:38:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcnielsen:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

Honestly, I like the way the Glock feels in my hand but the Kaboom factor is for me a very real factor.



Seriously?


KaBOOM, eh?

Wait until you see how hot these pistolez get and the last thing you'll be worried about is a kaBOOM!
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:40:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 11:42:44 AM EDT by Sandman67]
Ok...someone needs to learn reading comprehension. I know how a gun goes off. That is not the issue here.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:41:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dolomite:

KaBOOM, eh?

Wait until you see how hot these pistolez get and the last thing you'll be worried about is a kaBOOM!



No Crap!

I'd fire my G17 all day 700 rounds before it got even close to as hot as my P7 after 50 rounds!

Great carry pistol though...
(just don't press the cocker and the trigger at the same time unless it's unholstered and on target)
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:44:19 AM EDT

Wait until you see how hot these pistolez get and the last thing you'll be worried about is a kaBOOM!


yea but the one I am buying has a heat shield to help with this or is that just what they tell ya?
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:48:00 AM EDT
I think we all understand the "issue" just fine

Some cops had Negligent Discharges and blamed their weapons
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:48:24 AM EDT
I beleive the heat shields over the trigger guards appeared in the early 80's,

- but I am not an H undt K expert (one of the few on the internet willing to admit that BTW)
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:52:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

Wait until you see how hot these pistolez get and the last thing you'll be worried about is a kaBOOM!

yea but the one I am buying has a heat shield to help with this or is that just what they tell ya?


The heat shield helps, but you won't be putting a lot of ammo downrange in a short time with a P7.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:55:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

Wait until you see how hot these pistolez get and the last thing you'll be worried about is a kaBOOM!


yea but the one I am buying has a heat shield to help with this or is that just what they tell ya?



Even the M8 gets hot after about 60 rounds, when fired fairly rapidly.

My PSP gets smoking hot faster.

As far as what your buddy said, he is full of it. I own 3 P7's, 2 M8's and a Euro (commonly miscalled a PSP as there are very few PSPs around) and the only thing that has happened in NJ as far as the gun is concerned is a weld on the rear of one broke during firing. That is the extent of it.

As for 'easily' firing the P7 while holding the trigger and then depressing the cocking lever, I think that looking at Rosie naked would be easier (well, not really...). The drag bar really DRAGS when the trigger is held down and you squeeze the cocking lever.

Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:55:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Obiwan_ryobi:
I think we all understand the "issue" just fine

Some cops had Negligent Discharges and blamed their weapons



And the winner is....
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:56:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sub-MOA:
...the human hand does not “like” to squeeze just the bottom three fingers.



Sympathetic reactions.

My bet is the ones who shot themselves, if true, were the same ones who fired their exact allotment of training rounds, and that is all -- FOR THE WHOLE YEAR.

Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:01:50 PM EDT
The heat shields appeared as a direct result of the US military's XM-9 tests. They help quite a bit, but the gun still gets way hot. The design directs hot gas into the area right above your trigger finger for the piston to work against and keep the slide closed. Needless to say, the hot gasses get things pretty warm for your trigger finger.

The heat shield is worth getting, but it doesn't really solve the problem to the point that you're going to enjoy burning through tons of ammo like you can with other guns.

Just bring along another gun that you can shoot at the range while the P7 cools down.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:16:32 PM EDT
Never heard of it. Sounds like pure BS to me.

And I've cocked and unckocked loaded and unloaded P7s thousands of times and never once had the firing pin engage without pulling the trigger.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:17:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dolomite:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
One of the main reasons I am buying the P7 is that it's the one gun I don't have a fear of having one in the chamber.


Why?

Because a live round in the chamber is safer due to the fact that the firing pin isn't at tension?

If that's your requirement, you my friend need a Glock.



Cause it's kinda like walking around with a Sig hammer back. Makes me uncomfortable too, same reason I'm not keen on Glocks.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:18:04 PM EDT
OK here is the skinny on NJ State Police and the H&K- The pistols were replaced briefly by the Smith and Wesson SW99, a fine gun and the one on which I trained in the Academy. There were jamming problems with the gun, I think mainly due to the cheap ass 15 round magazines that were bought because of assanine Attorney General regulations forbidding even police officers from carrying beyond that capacity. This precluded the use of the stock magazine. We then went back to the H&K until it was replaced by Sig 228's, another fine gun.
The H&K was beloved by the troops, as the grip cocker really was a fine safety feature that almost always prevented a bad guy from operating the pistol. However, the P7M8 is a complicated weapon with limited magazince capacity, and there was a tragic incident which painfully illustrated its shortcomings, as well as the aging of the pistols carried by the troops. On October 24, 1997. Trooper Scott Gonzalez was rammed by a man in a pickup truck who got out wielding a shotgun. Trooper Gonzalez was trapped in his troop car, but still managed to draw his H&K and return fire through the windshield. Trooper Gonzalez's H&K malfunctioned with a broken part. He was executed at point blank range. Rest in peace Scott.
The H&K is a fine weapon, and any safety concerns are solved by proper trigger discipline. The grip cocker is a great feature. As a duty weapon, its time is past.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:20:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Yes, a P7 will fire if both the trigger and grip are squeezed, regardless of the order in which these controls are actuated. It will NOT fire with only the grip depressed unless there are broken or missing parts in the trigger or striker mechanisms, and I'm not sure if even that is possible since I don't think it could even cock the striker if that was the case.

I found with a little practice that it was very easy to control the weapon. It's probably not a good weapon for the clueless however.

If you find any good deals on M8's let me know, I'd like to find a good used one at a reasonable price. (yeah I know... hr
In total agreement.

Once the squeeze cocker is pulled, trigger pull is light. So its might not be a good weapon for someone with bad habits who rest there finger on the trigger before they are ready to fire. I have owned one for 20 years and never had a AD with it. I know of one LEO that shot himself in the leg with a Glock while holstering the weapon. Personally I think the P7M8 is a excellent 9mm carry weapon. Its accuracy is among the best in 9mms.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:20:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LVMIKE:
It will fire (or so I'm told) very eisily if you are holding the trigger when you pull the cocker. Sorta like flipping off the saftey on a Remington 700, with your finger on the trigger. It probably reduces the trigger pull greatly or the striker just slips over the sear (bad terminology?).



Uh yeah, as it was designed to. Most guns DO fire when you pull the trigger.

Just like cowboy guns when you pull the trigger and then fan the hammer with your palm.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:22:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcnielsen:

Originally Posted By Obiwan_ryobi:
I think we all understand the "issue" just fine

Some cops had Negligent Discharges and blamed their weapons



And the winner is....



+1
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:25:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By LVMIKE:
It will fire (or so I'm told) very eisily if you are holding the trigger when you pull the cocker. Sorta like flipping off the saftey on a Remington 700, with your finger on the trigger. It probably reduces the trigger pull greatly or the striker just slips over the sear (bad terminology?).



Uh yeah, as it was designed to. Most guns DO fire when you pull the trigger.

Just like cowboy guns when you pull the trigger and then fan the hammer with your palm.



Once again, I worded that wrong. It doesn't convey the whole thought... Basically, a 700 with the saftey on is hard to tell if your actually pulling the trigger to breaking point or not. what I was suggesting is the P7 is similar. Leading to someone resting their finger on it and not realising they were actually pulling the trigger when they depress the cocker. Another person posted on how hard this is so its probably a moot point. This whole thing goes back to the shooter, not the guns fault (provided it wasn't a mechanical failure).
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:26:48 PM EDT
I have owned 3 P7's, 2 M8's and a M13. They do not "Just go off".

Piss poor training on the part of the Firearms Instructors.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:31:52 PM EDT
Your pal is way off base. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire and all's well.
A great forum for P7's is at www.parkcitiestactical.com. Go to the "cult of the P7" and you'll be enlightened. A great gun and like every gun it has it's peculiarities. For the P7 they are, it's heavy as heck, and it gets hot. If you can get around those you'll love it. Good leather will take care of the weight issue, as far as getting hot, don't shoot hundreds of rounds until winter. Seriously I shoot steel with mine and in the summer it will still be warm when I get to the next stage, but in winter it's bearable and sometimes even welcome.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:39:19 PM EDT
I call bullshit.

A p7 was one of the first pistols I was graced to shoot, and I like it.

I suspect what was happening was that the shooters were squeezing not only the safety but also the trigger. That's the reason why I wouldn't necessarily carry one, becuase I'd want a lot more trigger time and practice before I felt comfortable taking one out day to day. But it is doable and lots of people have. Those cops blamed the gun for their negligence.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:42:33 PM EDT
Its 100% BULLSHIT. Period. NJSP were accidentally acuating the trigger as they squeezed the grip and shot them selves. They did pull the trigger. The P7 will not fire unless ya squeeze cock it AND pull the trigger. As stated by others it doesnt matter which order you do them in but yes the trigger must be pulled to go boom. Enjoy your new HK.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 1:58:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Dolomite:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
One of the main reasons I am buying the P7 is that it's the one gun I don't have a fear of having one in the chamber.


Why?

Because a live round in the chamber is safer due to the fact that the firing pin isn't at tension?

If that's your requirement, you my friend need a Glock.



Cause it's kinda like walking around with a Sig hammer back. Makes me uncomfortable too, same reason I'm not keen on Glocks.


The Glock isn't fully cocked until the trigger safety flange is deactivated allowing the trigger bar to travel backwards and deactivate the firing pin safety.

With one down the pipe, the firing pin spring is in a "half cocked" postition pushing the trigger bar into the safety ramp of the trigger mechanism housing.

Also technically, like the Glock, the P7 does not have "second strike capability" - although the user simply has to remember to release and re-squeeze the grip on the P7 in order to fully cock it and have another go at the primer.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 2:17:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcnielsen:

Originally Posted By Obiwan_ryobi:
I think we all understand the "issue" just fine

Some cops had Negligent Discharges and blamed their weapons



And the winner is....



Mike ask Len B at your next tactical pistol course about his days as a NJ cop. He said that there was a NJ trooper that shot himself in the leg because he was griping the P7 and had his finger on the trigger when he was returning the P7 to the holster
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 2:39:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

It will fire (or so I'm told) very eisily if you are holding the trigger when you pull the cocker.


Maybe this is what he was talking about?



Yes.

Another good example of why you should keep your damn finger off the trigger until you acquire the target!
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:40:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gamma762:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

Wait until you see how hot these pistolez get and the last thing you'll be worried about is a kaBOOM!

yea but the one I am buying has a heat shield to help with this or is that just what they tell ya?


The heat shield helps, but you won't be putting a lot of ammo downrange in a short time with a P7.



True indeed. I shoot 50 through my P7, then put it down and put at least 100 through my Glock. That P7 gets HOT. And when I say hot, I mean if I put 100 rounds through at a fairly quick pace, I don't like holding the gun, and I sure as hell won't holster it.

That being said, I love the damn thing!
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:36:16 AM EDT
Buy it. Stop worrying. I'm sure your friend was sincere. Nothing is impossible. The story was certainly BS. You will not be sorry you own one. You're welcome. Stay safe.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:48:15 AM EDT
I've got three of them and shoot the hell out of them.


Never had a problem.

YMMV

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 4:52:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 4:52:47 PM EDT by Merlin]
I carried a HK P7M8 for a year in WA state about 17 years ago. It sucked major donkey balls.

- Shitty grip. I have large hands, my hands hated the P7 "2x4" feeling.
- Mag release buttons were sharp and dug into my side
- Couldn't shoot lead practice bullets since it was gas operated.

I traded it for a Sig P-226 and never looked back. My DCW now is a Glock M-23.

Merlin
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:00:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gamma762:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

Wait until you see how hot these pistolez get and the last thing you'll be worried about is a kaBOOM!

yea but the one I am buying has a heat shield to help with this or is that just what they tell ya?


The heat shield helps, but you won't be putting a lot of ammo downrange in a short time with a P7.



If someone can pony up the cash for a P7, they should be able to spend the 25 bucks on a pair of nomex flight gloves if their manicure starts to get all screwed up...

We are talking a pistol with 8 rd mags that cost over 50 bucks retail...how many rounds is a P7 owner going to send down range in a short time?...
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:01:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcnielsen:

Originally Posted By Obiwan_ryobi:
I think we all understand the "issue" just fine

Some cops had Negligent Discharges and blamed their weapons



And the winner is....



now, now, now...not like anyone in our society, LEs included, to blame someone else for their fuck up...
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:07:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

Why?

Because a live round in the chamber is safer due to the fact that the firing pin isn't at tension?

If that's your requirement, you my friend need a Glock.



Couple reasons really. Honestly, I like the way the Glock feels in my hand but the Kaboom factor is for me a very real factor. Second, the HK P7 can't be beat accuracy wise out of the box. Third and most important, I just really like that safety system. Kinda hard to accidentally fire that gun, unless what my buddy said is true, which I cannot believe but who knows. Anything's posible.


"Kabooms" are not a factor with 9mm Glocks. In fact, they aren't a factor, but that's another thread.

I have no doubts there were NDs with P7s. I also have no doubts it was because said cop had his finger on the trigger.

The P7 is a fine weapon. Get one and enjoy, but be sure to keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. Even with the squeezecocker "safety" the most important safety is between your ears.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:09:42 PM EDT
The NJSP issues arose as officers drew them from secure duty holsters in the same way that they would take out their revolvers, which depressed the squeeze cocker. A few NDs resulted when the trigger snagged or was actuated during removal.

The P7 series are great weapons, and I carry it because it's the safest design for a handgun. However, for a large police force where officer training level varies, it's not the right choice.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:17:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
The NJSP issues arose as officers drew them from secure duty holsters in the same way that they would take out their revolvers, which depressed the squeeze cocker. A few NDs resulted when the trigger snagged or was actuated during removal.
.


that is the reason i heard also
level 3 holsters+piss poor training + light trigger= ND
I had a 3 P7s ( P7M8, PSP and a P7M10)I used to drink HK Koolaid hard style and thoguht they were the shit till i started shooting IPSC with the M8 and M10 , no mag capacity and to make it worse i could not for the life of me change a mag quickly , the M10 was not bad in that reguard but the M8 and PSP sucked , and after a good sized IPSC course i could not hold onto the damn thing esp the PSP
Nice p[istols but not worth the $$ IMO
I just liked them cuz the were expensive and kinda rare
Top Top