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Posted: 7/29/2001 8:34:04 AM EDT
[#1]
Sharp-looking uniforms, especially in black, are worn to intimidate the weak,impressionable, and ignorant. I can't decide from your post which group you belong to.
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Posted: 7/29/2001 8:36:55 AM EDT
[#2]
That would be the TROLL group....[whacko][sniper]
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Posted: 7/29/2001 8:37:05 AM EDT
[#3]
There front line soldiers were surely brave, but the SS were a butch of sniveling cowards, preying on civilians who could not defend themselves. The SS were not front line soldiers and probably saw no combat until the desperate end.
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Posted: 7/29/2001 8:41:28 AM EDT
[#4]
No offense, Larryg, but the WAFFEN SS were most certainly front-line troops, and much feared at that. There were other sub-groups within the SS such as the ALLEGEMINE SS which performed other very unsavory tasks.
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Posted: 7/29/2001 8:42:29 AM EDT
[#5]
The brave Germans were those that stood up to Hitler. It is easy to be part of a group and act tough. Bu to stand in small numbers and fight for what is right, knowing that you will most likely die ...that is true courage!
The Hitlers of the world prey upon those that want 'cute little skull and crossbones' to look look tough and brave. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 8:44:47 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: There front line soldiers were surely brave, but the SS were a butch of sniveling cowards, preying on civilians who could not defend themselves. The SS were not front line soldiers and probably saw no combat until the desperate end. Yes and no... There were two branches of the SS. The Waffen SS were front line troops, the cream of the crop and the most feared. They were first rate fighters, and most had little concern for political issues. You could draw paralells between them and the Rangers of today, except the were much larger and had panzer divions etc. The Allegramine (sp?) SS was the political branch, the were the cowards who handled all the race relocation and exptermination jobs. They were VERY political and were comprised to a good deal of Hitlers early supporters. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 8:49:49 AM EDT
[#7]
I feel that all war time soldiers are equal, no matter what flag they fight under. It doesn't matter if their government is in the right or wrong, they fight for their homeland. Most are just scared 17/18/19 year old kids. It is there first time away from home. They were sent to do a job, and did it the best they could, many never made it home.
OSA |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 8:52:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Garand_Shooter, my information is that ALL SS received extensive political indoctrination. One of the most important criteria for officers was political "reliability" as opposed to formal military education.
The result was that although there were many competent SS officers, as a group they did not rise to the skill levels of, say a Manstein or even a Rommel. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 8:55:33 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I think its that cute little skull and crossbones. It took guts for the designer to include that on a uniform. That idea was borrowed from Mussolini's "Black Shirts" |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:00:16 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Sharp-looking uniforms, especially in black, are worn to intimidate the weak,impressionable, and ignorant. I can't decide from your post which group you belong to. I collect this stuff. Which group am I in???? |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:04:13 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Garand_Shooter, my information is that ALL SS received extensive political indoctrination. One of the most important criteria for officers was political "reliability" as opposed to formal military education. The result was that although there were many competent SS officers, as a group they did not rise to the skill levels of, say a Manstein or even a Rommel. Heck, all Germans recieved extensive political indoctrination during that period. What I meant was most in the Waffen SS were there because they were good soldiers and wanted to fight with the best, where as most in the Allegramine were there because they actually believd the crap Hitler spewed out. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:06:23 AM EDT
[#12]
Soooo....raf.....I saw Shania Twain in concert
and she wore a black, tight, sexy, rubber outfit. Was she trying to intimidate the weak,impressionable, and ignorant? After all, it was black. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:06:28 AM EDT
[#13]
When I show my collection I do not feel a need to include a disclaimer that seperates myself from any ideology that the items may represent. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:10:16 AM EDT
[#14]
And you should'nt have to weasel. But to
the liberals and politically correct geeks in this country that are scared to death they may say something to actually perturb a jew, well, that just cannot be allowed to happen. Heaven forbid! |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:21:11 AM EDT
[#15]
Gardenweasel, no offense was meant to you or any other legitimate collector. Hell, I collect militaria myself. I question the legitimacy of someone who thinks of TOTENKOPF badges as "cute".
Jewbait, what Ms. Twain wore was CLOTHING, not a uniform. Please re-read my original post. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:23:38 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: And you should'nt have to weasel. But to the liberals and politically correct geeks in this country that are scared to death they may say something to actually perturb a jew, well, that just cannot be allowed to happen. Heaven forbid! Doesn't this make you feel GOOD???!!! [b]eBay will review listings that are brought to its attention by its worldwide community, and will look at the entire listing to determine whether it falls within this rule. Examples of items that will generally be removed: Items that bear symbols of the Nazis, the SS, or the KKK, including authentic German WWII memorabilia that bears such marks.[/b] |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:28:22 AM EDT
[#17]
There is no doubt eBay does this to appease
the jews. There is no other reason. The owners of eBay are considered super liberal. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:32:45 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: There is no doubt eBay does this to appease the jews. There is no other reason. The owners of eBay are considered super liberal. Nope, not the Jewish community. Surprisingly it was THE FRENCH GOVT!!! Go figure. Must be due to the embarassment of conquered and collaborated syndrome. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:33:14 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: And you should'nt have to weasel. But to the liberals and politically correct geeks in this country that are scared to death they may say something to actually perturb a jew, well, that just cannot be allowed to happen. Heaven forbid! Doesn't this make you feel GOOD???!!! [b]eBay will review listings that are brought to its attention by its worldwide community, and will look at the entire listing to determine whether it falls within this rule. Examples of items that will generally be removed: Items that bear symbols of the Nazis, the SS, or the KKK, including authentic German WWII memorabilia that bears such marks.[/b] |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:37:12 AM EDT
[#20]
I'm not a sympathizer of the Nazis etc, they were pretty brutal. But I was at the Queen Mary, in Long Beach, Calif. And I saw a plaque saying that the Queen Mary was troop transport ship during WWII, transporting thousands of prisoners of war, to the U.S. On this plaque, it mentioned that many prisoners died because the port holes were sealed up to prevent escape, so it was brutally hot in the hold.
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:39:21 AM EDT
[#21]
[img]http://www.ctv.es/USERS/apf/Poster.JPG[/img]
They were the black knights, the elite of the Third Reich. They wore the death's head badge and were imubed with a ferocious bravery, the like of which has never been surpassed on the battlefield, and were generally contemptous of death. They swore undying loyalty to their Fuhrer, and at his bidding they fought and died in their thousands - they were the soldiers of the Waffen-SS. The men of Hitler's infamous praetorian guard fought some of the most heroic battles of World War II. There was another side to the Waffen-SS, however - the atrocities commited on and off the battlefield. Certain units - Das Reich - perpetrated atrocities against innocent civilians, while Totenkopf was closely associated with the concentration camps. In the end, even the loyal men of the Leibstandarte lost their faith in the Fuhrer. Hitler blamed the Leibstandarte for the failed offensive in Hungary - Operation 'Spring Awakening' - and this way he insulted both officers and men. The insulted soldiers took off their hard earned badges and shoulder patched and send them back to Hitler in a box. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:39:50 AM EDT
[#22]
ALLEGEMINE is the correct spelling for those who care.
The Waffen SS did commit atrocities during the war, though. I know they killed many of our POW's during Battle of the Bulge and we put several of them on trial after the war for it. In the grand scheme of things, however, the Allegemine SS were the truely ideological and evil (yes, evil) ones who brutalized innocent people. They also lost the war for Germany. When the Weirmacht first rolled through Russia they were greated as liberators from Stalin's oppression by the Russian people. Then came the ALLEGEMINE SS whose responsibility was to govern occupied terrority, among other things, and they did nothing but murder, torture, and starve the russian people. Why else would a Russian fight for Stalin? They wouldn't have in 1940, but the SS gave them no choice. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:46:59 AM EDT
[#23]
Re the black spiffy uniforms, I had heard somewhere that the SS adopted the black uniform because they were some of the first forces to go mechanized and the black hid grease and oil stains a lot better than other schemes. That's my big contribution to the topic.
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:55:07 AM EDT
[#24]
Ignore raf. In his zeal to be Politically Correct he tends to blow it out his butt.
Ignore for a moment that they were Nazis and ignore whether they were or were not the bravest soldiers and this much is still true. It took half of the world to defeat the Germans in WW2. They were some bad mo fo's and their uniforms were and still are the coolest. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 9:57:35 AM EDT
[#25]
Stalin killed more people then Adolf Hitler did and no one talks about his forced labor and death camps. Its funny how you say that the Germans killed POW's, cause I have read enough stories from US soldiers shooting Germans after they where captured either out of anger or because they wanted there uniform for a war trophy and I don't recall them going to court over it. Some of you are as blinded by your hatred for what the Nazi's did that you start believing everything the movies try to sell you. No side was perfect and to downplay the SS as a bunch of sniveling racist desk warmers makes them sound more and more like Sarah Brady who seems more evil then all of the SS put together.
[img]http://www.bradycampaign.org/images/about/sarah.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 10:11:40 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Re the black spiffy uniforms, I had heard somewhere that the SS adopted the black uniform because they were some of the first forces to go mechanized and the black hid grease and oil stains a lot better than other schemes. That's my big contribution to the topic. The Germans are practical people but not THAT practical. The Germannic/Teutonic people have always been first and foremost a martial people. There are German and Prussian family lines that go back hundreds of years that are populated by professional warriors. These families in particular and German's as a whole take great pride in their military service and history. The spiffy uniforms are no accident. The entire German program from ships to aircraft to vehicles to uniforms had an agressive look to it. The appearance of the unifirms was intended to make people look and go "wow', and the guys waering it feel great pride in his units and service. We are no different today, witness the controversy over black berets among our own elite troops. Evrything about the German warrior was intended to set him apart from his contemporaries. The uniforms, the recruiting posters, the midnight swearing in by candelight all sent the message that "we're bad, and we're coming to kick your ass!" As far as atrocities, there were many comitted by the Germans, and Americans, and Japanese and Russians, etc... WW2 was a brutal war, the first time in history that total war involving civilians and their resources as legitimate targets was practiced on a worldwide scale. The Germans were worse cause they lost. There was and is no excuse for the Holocaust, but remember that most of the German officer corps in operational units were professionals. By and large it was not those men involved in running the camps and in atrocities against civilians. The whole story of WW2 is full of tragedy against innocents. Over 100,000 Japanese civilians died during our invasion of Okinawa, 700,000 Germans were killed in the final Russian assault on Berlin. War on this scale sucks, period. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 10:14:50 AM EDT
[#27]
I've got a problem with the accuracy of the "Nazi soldier" label in the original question.
Technically, the german soldiers that fought in WW II were exactly that GERMAN SOLDIERS. Some may have been members of the Nazi party, but most were not. Just like most soldiers in China's army today are NOT members of the communist party. So the thread is somewhat confusing to me - were you saying that those german soldiers who were nazis were brave, or were you saying that german soldiers (who were fighting on the orders of the nazi party) were brave. I believe it is a well-accepted fact that no army in the world in 1940 was as efficient, well-trained and well-equipped as the German army. I have no doubt that German soldiers were very brave - just as there is no doubt that soldiers (if they can be called that) of the german "Einsatzgruppen" for instance, were among the most despicable and cowardly humans that ever lived. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 10:16:22 AM EDT
[#28]
[NI]
screw you sarah brady [-!-!-] |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 10:41:35 AM EDT
[#29]
If you think the Waffen SS troops were evil just because they killed civilians or POWs you have a lot to learn. US troops have consistently done the same things since our founding, as has every other civilization since the beginning of history. Read what the USMC did in South America in the early part of the century. The Russians were particular brutal in WWII(Afghanistan, etc, etc) with POWs and civilians. At least the Germans did it fairly clean(shooting) and not barbaric(cutting) like the commies. Read The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer. You will be depressed for a good month. Especially when you get to the end when the Germans were trying to hold back the invading Russians. We made a mistake not letting Patton go on to Russia.
Half you guys were puking on your keyboards when you watched that Russian get his head cut off. Your grandfathers probably did the same thing for some collar tabs. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 11:17:05 AM EDT
[#30]
Someone needs to put Sarah Brady's picture on JoJo's mall ninja picture...anyone?
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Posted: 7/29/2001 11:24:03 AM EDT
[#31]
Putting a skull and cross bones on a uniform is nothing new. The origin of "ropes", shoulder braids, I cannot spell there french name is far cooler. French calavarymen, when told they would be hanged if they failed in battle, began wearing a length of rope as a sign of contempt for their commanders. A nice way of saying, "if you dont like me, here is the rope, hang my ass." Far cooler then a stupid skull.
My Dad(101st AB WWII) killed several Germans, he liked their uniforms and collected many decent mementos from them. He said they were very good soldiers, right up to the very end. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 11:36:52 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Before y'all freak out....this is just my opinion. Can't I state my opinion, or will my thread be censured? I'll wait and see. This does not mean I would wear the uniform, although they were sharp. Just got back from Branson Missouri. Took a tour thru the Veterans Museum. Lots of uniforms, and by far the Nazi SS were the sharpest. I think its that cute little skull and crossbones. It took guts for the designer to include that on a uniform. SS uniform designer: Hugo Boss. Yes, the same one. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 11:45:20 AM EDT
[#33]
Are you kidding!!! Do you have a source, I'd like to be able to prove that one.
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Posted: 7/29/2001 11:56:04 AM EDT
[#34]
As in any war there were brave soldiers who fought and died in the trenches on both sides,
irrespective of politics. Remember, History is made by the victors of war. Something the Japanese haven't come to terms with yet. The German soldiers were first rate and a formidable opponent to the Allies. I find interesting that with all the talk of what a great war machine Germany was, the vast majority of their frontline troops were armed with bolt action rifles. [i]Yes, they had many advanced weapons in the pipeline and some even had a limited role towards the end of the war.[/i] I wonder if this made a significant difference in the end. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 11:57:43 AM EDT
[#35]
You can see the skull and bones motif in some of the flags of the Free Corps, the post-WWI units that fought in the chaos of the East after the armistice. They got it from the hanseatic league pirates.
The German SS units had a reputation for atrocities because they committed a lot of them. This was not just a factor of them being on the losing side. The German army and Waffen SS units were generally better than British or US units on a unit-for-unit basis. Some people have figured the advantage as about 1.5:1. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 12:12:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Are you kidding!!! Do you have a source, I'd like to be able to prove that one. No I'm not kidding. Remember HB was an Italian designer during the war. Italy supported Germany in the early years and as noted earlier in this thread Hitler based his SA on Mussolinis brownshits. I've known a bout Hugo Boss being the uniform designer for some time but did not get the info from the net. A search probably could produce a source as it is not a hidden secret. Other industry that supported Axis forces. Krupp was to Nazi Germany what US Steel was to our industry. Look around your kitchen for Krupp toasters, blenders, coffemakers, etc. Dangler-Benz put engines in anything that moved for the war effort. Me-109s, tanks, etc. Ferdinan Porsche got his start as a tank designer. For the most part these companies did NOT conspire to support the holocaust, etc. Remember, someone designed "our" uniforms. And in both cases it was done for the same reasons, it is what that company did and out of patriotism. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 1:07:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: I find interesting that with all the talk of what a great war machine Germany was, the vast majority of their frontline troops were armed with bolt action rifles. I wonder if this made a significant difference in the end. The German Army doctrine did not expect the rifleman to carry the battle in the manner that other contemporary armies did. The Germans (rightly) saw the portable light machine gun as the real firepower of the squad. Each rifle squad had one or two MG34's or 42's as their main weapon. The job of the riflemen was to keep the gun team in action via supporting fire, carrying belts, etc. The correctness of this concept has been proven because every major army now uses their light and medium machine guns this way. The bolt action rifle was sufficient to the task at hand. Also, remember the Germans were the first to introduce a real assault rifle firing a medium power cartridge. Made a big impression on the Russians, too. They copied the idea as soonas they could. Called it the AK47. Yeah, the vaunted German War machine is responsible for putting in the field the guns that made your AR15/M16 a reality. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 1:20:26 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: [img]http://www.bradycampaign.org/images/about/sarah.jpg[/img] AAHHHHHhhhhh..cough, cough,.....hack...cough....ack.... hehehehe |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 1:44:38 PM EDT
[#39]
Oh yes, all very good commentary.....But we still WON !!!!!!
[flag] |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 2:20:26 PM EDT
[#40]
Some of you guys are assuming that because I think the German Nazis were evil, I therefore think that Russian communists were good.
That is not the case. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 2:34:49 PM EDT
[#41]
Another minor point: While Krupp was responsible for a good many civilian innovations, including stamped tableware, excellent crucible railcar tires, and the KA-2 Enduro stainless steel used on the Chrysler building, I do not think that Krupp makes all those kitchen appliances and cappucino machines.
Reason: The kitchen appliances are labelled "Krups" and not "Krupp." |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 2:51:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Here's a very brief history of the SS:
-1929 created as a bodyguard unit for top Nazi Party officals -1934 ran the first Concentation Camps which held politcal enemies of the Nazi Party -1936 assumed all Police functions in Germany. Seven agencies in all, the Gestapo being the most infamous -The Waffen SS was created in '37 or'38 to rival the Wehrmacht. All governmental organizations in Germany had a Nazi Party counterpart. - To be An SS member, one had to be a member of the Nazi Party in good standing, show an pure Aryan blood line of so many generations, and be of good moral character -German occupied counties also had indigenous SS formations except for France which had such a wonderful record of collaboration that the Nazi saw no need for a French SS |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 3:04:17 PM EDT
[#43]
The German soldier was a loser as was the Japanese. These were both militaristic societies that preached their superiority. The generation of Americans that endured the depression and everything that went with it(malnutrition and the poor health that resulted from it,under education among these) rose up and out fought, out produced and out classed them everywhere they met them. Brave or not the got their asses waxed but good.
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Posted: 7/29/2001 3:05:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: The Germannic/Teutonic people have always been first and foremost a martial people. There are German and Prussian family lines that go back hundreds of years that are populated by professional warriors. Longer than just hundreds of years - [url]http://myron.sjsu.edu/romeweb/ENEMIES/art17.htm[/url].[:D] You'd think the Roman people of the 1930s would've paid more attention to history. The Huns were always bad juju for them. Or, maybe they did take a peek at history, but never learned that switching horses in midstream is also a bad idea. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 3:08:09 PM EDT
[#45]
What? ........The SS where fools.
And there lil. boss was a total joke as a leader Man are you some kid? Is this gon-a just freak us out so you can yuk it up? would that be cool to you? I bet if you ask, inhere you just may find some that had to fight the SS and they kick there but. If you want to look up to some one there you go. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 3:50:54 PM EDT
[#46]
All You guys who say that the German and Japanese soldier were all fools, stupid, etc. Go ask a WW2 veteran who faced them in combat, and ask him if he thought they were fools.
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Posted: 7/29/2001 4:27:13 PM EDT
[#47]
MelonPopper, I kept thinking the same thing at first.
Almost everyone who posted agrees that the German soldiers were some bad-assed fudermuckers. Everyone seems to think they have to qualify their opinions with obligatory disclaimers if they're not PC. I think the German army of WW-ll might've been the best army the world has ever seen. Why'd they loose? Numbers. And their leader was a drug addict, & they were wrong, & they screwed with the wrong (2) countries, & they started to think they were invincible, & it snowed hard, blah, blah, blah....... [u]They were good though[/u] (Soldiers I mean,,,,,,, damn-it - now I'm doing it!). |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 4:36:22 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: What? ........The SS where fools. Please read some history books. The SS fought against some incredible odds and performed well. They were highly disciplined. Many of the US Military's modern tactics are based on WWII German tactics. I question your knowledge of this subject. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 4:53:52 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Garand_Shooter, my information is that ALL SS received extensive political indoctrination. One of the most important criteria for officers was political "reliability" as opposed to formal military education. The result was that although there were many competent SS officers, as a group they did not rise to the skill levels of, say a Manstein or even a Rommel. Actually, your information is wrong. A good many troops in the Waffen SS weren't even German, they were made up mostly of Poles, Czechs, and Danes. The Waffen SS was the only branch of the military in which foreigners were permitted to serve. Political indoctrination was uncommon after 1939, training took precedence. The troops were in no way even comparable to Rangers. For one thing, they were regular armored infrantry, not airborne commandos. They were not used as assault troops, that was reserved for falshemjager (sp. airborne). They were tenacious, but suffered horrible casualties and rarely if ever won battles. They were feared because they knew how to retreat: Dig in, give 'em hell, Fall back, dig in, give 'em hell, etc. Not many troops can do this and maintain cohesion. The SS could, that is what made them good. But as far as them being Ranger equivalent, they lost, Rangers didn't. |
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Posted: 7/29/2001 5:07:11 PM EDT
[#50]
Post by cerberus -
As far as atrocities, there were many comitted by the Germans, and Americans, and Japanese and Russians, etc... Pardon me, Cerberus, but do you really think that it is appropriate to include the Americans along with those other three monstrous nations? The Germans were worse cause they lost. No sir, they WERE the worst, period. Whether they lost or not didn't matter, there was no other nation, that infringed upon its own ability to make war by using valuable equipment and men to service their death camps! Towards the end of the war, when it became obvious that they were going to lose, they redoubled their efforts at 'exterminating' the Jews! That is evil on the grandest scale ever in human history. The Russians and Japanese were equally cruel and bloodthirsty in their treatment of captured enemy soldiers and conquered civilians. Russia won the war and yet their victory doesn't lessen their criminal conduct in the war. Think 'Katyn Forest'! So where does America fit into this category? For precision daylight bombing in Europe, or in the Far East, particularly Japan? For its use of two atomic weapons? More lives were saved due to this quick ending of the war prior to an invasion of the Japanese home islands! C'mon, let's hear of American atrocities of such scale and dimensions as those of the Germans, Russians and Japanese!!! Eric The(Let'sNotForgetTheUSADidn'tStartAnyWar)Hun[>]:)] |
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