ABSOLUTELY. YES, VERY MUCH SO!!!!!!!! He sent His only Son to die for you and your wife, as much as for me and my wife. We ALL have a sin debt to pay. All we need do is receive God's payment for our debt IN THE MANNER HE SPECIFIES.




Ahhh, but I think you just stepped in it here.

IF God created us, does He not have the right to dictate our behaviour?? Clearly, from Scripture, God forbids lustful, sexual thoughts (those outside the marriage covenant.)

Further, if we are in His image, what do we do to God's image, when we allow base sexual insticts to rule our hearts and minds ??(By base instincts, I mean ANY sexual gratification outside of marriage. In the REAL world, thats what "babe pics " are designed for. Don't know 'bout you, but NEVER have I looked at a babe pic, and NOT thought "boink.")

Not intended to flame - your comments are some of the MOST on point and thought provoking yet.

This argument ALWAYS intrigues me, ESPECIALLY when made by a Second Amendment supporter.

If we had a dollar for every time we made the statement that "Guns don't kill, people do" we'd win teh debate on dollars alone. People's MISUSE of guns kills, not guns.

Religion doesn't kill - peoples MISUSE of religion does.

Just because someone CLAIMS to be religious, don't believe it. For those who use religion to start wars, Its just a hammer to work out his own sick, twisted desires and whims. Religion doesn;t cause war any more than a gun kills. PEOPLE are the problem, not an inanimate object, or a societal construct.

Come on, Jarhead - you are smarter than that. Not a slam, i really mean that, and have always enjoyed your posts.

And porn doesn't rape, molest or kill either. It's sick, hurt, crazy, evil people who do that. Religion didn't make them sick, hurt, crazy or evil, and neither did pictures of naked ladies.

A religion is a set of ideas, a faith in something larger than ourselves. Pictures of pretty girls don't have nearly that kind of power. If your faith leads you to believe that you shouldn't be looking at pictures of pretty girls that you're not married to, I have no problem with that, and actually respect the strength of character it takes to stick to a postion like that. But to imply that a guy looking at bikini shots or Hooters girls or a topless dancer is on a slippery slope to becoming the next Ted Bundy is really intellectually dishonest.

[b][size=3]Not that garandman specifically has said that![/size=3][/b]

But some have used Bundy to attempt to prove that porn is bad. I'm not buying that load today.

FMCDH
Semper Fidelis
Jarhead out.

-------------------
"I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery."
--Jean-Jacques Rousseau

I started reading this tread because I knew where it came from. After reflecting on what I had said in the other thread, I decided that my opinions would have been best kept to myself. I have been hesitant to comment here for the same reason.
Some people here would likely consider me a Bible thumper, while others may not even consider me a likely Christian. Regardless of  your personal views some things just make sense while others don’t . I’m not talking about logic, because logic is usually society driven.
I believe that Religion is of itself, as big of a problem today as any other issue. Religion has superceded the spiritual connection of an individual that it was suppose to represent in the first place. What does that have to do with this topic?

Ask yourself about your own beliefs. Can you look back over your lifetime and see that there has been a change in your moral balance as some things became more accessible and acceptable. If you are old enough (30- 40 yrs) would you have openly done as a young adult, the things that are acceptable to openly do today. Or do you can you look back and see that your moral balance today is more in line with the standards that were acceptable in your earlier life.

The thing that is so easy to over look when we try to justify ourselves, is how do our beliefs relate to the world around us. When Playboy started, even if the woman was naked you couldn’t see anything. Now look where it as moved to. During that same time frame look at what has happened to our constitutional rights and freedoms.

Slowly but surely the accepted norm is moved. Remember when it was the right thing to do, to own guns? Ironically, it’s the Liberal mindset that moves and markets these new acceptable standards whether its guns, or porn.

When we take someone’s “spiritual” beliefs and say they don’t apply, it is no different than saying that porn didn’t cause societies conditions. Both those views are only our personal opinion. Christianity is about choice. It points out a way of living, and the reasons why and then it lets you decide your own course of action. The slip and slide, here today, change tomorrow, society that we live in, justifies its logical moral standard, and brands you as a bigot, holy roller, right wing extremist, etc, etc, etc. if you don’t accept its logic.

I don’t believe there are many things in this life that surpass the sight of a beautiful woman. And whether I could ever keep myself from looking at one is doubtful.

We actively cut our support to the industries that support things we don’t agree with. Like Ace hardware, K-mart, Lowes, the list goes own. Yet we still support the sexual industries that keep us entertained. Yes it is an industry, and yes they do contribute to the liberal, communist agenda. Whether you pay for it or not, does not effect whether you support it or not.

I personally find it difficult to accept the idea that we should complain about how our freedoms are being eroded in public, and support (thru the back door) the ones doing it to us.

Flame on

It was me that brought the Ted Bundy incident into this topic. But, only to show that it can have an adverse effect on folks.
I'm not saying looking at porn will make you want to kill someone, but what about the people that have commited these crimes?
Would they not have done it had they not looked at porn? Probably not. It just would have been something else, drugs, alcohol, etc, etc.

All these things (porn included) are just a seed to sowing more pain and agony into your life in another area. If you do these things, you let Satan have his way in your life. If Christ is the Lord of your life, nothing but good comes from him.

I would also like to say that yes, I am a Christian and I know what type of trash can seep into your life as a direct result of these type of things. There is a high price to pay for low living.

Porn - someone's little girl is exploited and used until she is no longer attractive...then what does she have?

Alcohol - Someone's mother, wife, father, brother, sister, etc is killed by an idiot that cannot handle his liqour and gets behind the wheel. Did the alcohol kill them? No, the drunk did.

Drugs - People get hooked and sell everything they own for another fix. I have a friend that his son sold his own fathers truck and tools just to supply his $500.00 a day crack habit.

Do you see a trend here?

Moderation in all things.

My animal side enjoys porn very much.  My spiritual side instinctively knows that it is not a great thing to be looking at.  If I see a beautiful woman, I try to admire her as one would admire a work of art - something exquisitely beautiful.

I personally feel a bit unfaithful to my wife, although she has told me that she doesn't mind if I look at porn.  But that is my problem, or fortune, depending on how you look at it.

I think anything can be destructive if one becomes obsessed with it.  Running is a healthy activity, but I have seen people become obsessed with it and have it very negatively affect their lives.  Alcohol and drugs are two obvious ones.  I am sure that porn can be very destructive if one gets obsessed with it.

As in all things, moderation is recommended.  To the vast, vast majority of people, the occasional viewing of porn is no big deal.  However, it can have an almost addictive quality to others.  Care is needed.

I personally think that viewing porn excessively can be destructive to families and family stability.  But, I think that excessively doing just about anything can do the same.

Of course, I don't think God appreciates it either.  And that is another consideration that I personally am mindful of.

I will also say that it is purely simple minded to say
"Well if you say porn makes people do bad things, then you probably say pwning guns make you a killer as well"

Owning guns and looking at porn are hardly in the same category and if you have to use that for ammunition to back up your sorry lifestyle, that is sad...

Last time I checked, there weren't references in the Bible that said (note loud thundering voice) THOU SHALT NOT OWN OR POSSESS FIREAMS!

I just don't understand why you would want to take the chance. Is it worth it to know that what you are doing may ultimately destroy your family?

Pornography is sort of like a romance novel without the words. That must be why men like it. [thinking]

And there's the rub.  Garandman rightly points out earlier that America has largely cut itself free from the Christian ethic, but Bwilder10h has not.  From his perspective, God said NO and that's it.  Exposing yourself to what God told you to stay away from allows Satan into your life and can ruin you.  This explains Ted Bundy to him - it was SATAN that did it.  

Comparing looking at porn as a cause of sexual predation and owning guns as a cause of homicide is NOT a stretch, if you aren't framing it as a religious question.

In my opinion, our problem isn't that our society cut itself free of the Christian ethic, it's that we [i]haven't replaced that ethic with anything other than "if it feels good, do it".[/i]  That's a pretty shitty ethic, pardon my French, and largely responsible for most of the ills we're suffering from today.  

Bwilder10h, I have no problem with your avoidance of pornography.  From reading your posts you are convinced that if you "give in" to your baser instincts Satan will possess your soul and make you an adulterer at best, and a predator at worst.  Hmmmm....  I'm not going there.   Perhaps it's true, for you.

However, the same is not true for me.  And that's the thing I like about America - we're able to be different without going to war over it.

1. YES! I'm married not buried.

2. Yes, she gets far more nervous when I'm on a firearms site than just looking at women. (afraid I'll spend more money on guns, ammo and accessories) In fact, I had her look at a nice Browning High-Power on Gunbroker.com. She simply replied that she thought I got this computer only for the free porn!

3. Who am I to question human nature. I am not a mind reader. Her "fantasies" are her business unless she chooses to share them with me. BTW if she wants a sub. to Playgirl I wish she would tell me so just for once I could get her a present she actually enjoys!

I'm not married and I look at porn if I want to.I don't care if it destroys someone's life,that's their problem not mine.I also am an Athiest and really have had enough with all this pontificating about morals and sin.Go sell crazy somewhere else...were all filled up around here!

No, that isn't necessarily so.  There is evidence that forms of what we would call pornography have been around for thousands of years.



All I see is rhetoric.

I don't believe in your version of God and I don't believe it's wrong to look at or pose for naked photographs.

Porn created Ted (burn in HELL) Bundy the same way "Evil Black Rifles" will turn all of us into mass murdering, trigger-happy psychos. We should all be held accountable for our own individual actions! I drink but I don't get drunk, I own firearms but I'm not waiting for the opportunity to shoot people and I enjoy porn but I don't become a Jekyll & Hyde. I think women are beautiful. Lets see more of them!

Of what?

Why would I care? I don't get my right to bear arms or my morality from the Bible.

I don't believe there were any porno hieroglyphics in the Egyptian pyramids. [:D]

what are you talking about???? I'd like to see that evidence.

the whole lets blam  pornnagraphy is just a cop out as lets blame guns.

my whole aurgement is u dont like guns dont buy em just dotn tell me what I cant do

dont like porn dont buy/read/use/whatver it. just dont tell me what I cant do!

•  Looking at babe pics "from another angle".....

Damn! I thought this was going to be a thread about "shoe mirrors".

garandman - I had the opportunity to go to Pompeii years ago.  Let me tell you, they had porn out the yin yang.  Not defending it, but the fact is that porn has been around for thousands of years.

Porn has been around since man has learned to draw. Even some cave drawings depict nude humans and sexual acts. Nude paintings have been around since the invention of paint. The illustrated Kama Sutra is pretty old as well. Just cuz you haven't seen it does mean it does not exist. You should try reading some other books.

You remind me of that Star Trek episode where they go to a world where the people have some strange book about Al Capone or something, and they consider it their bible and live by it. Of course the Star Trek people thought they were pretty f*cked up to live their lives by that book, much like how we atheists feel about you.

Well, thank you very much.

Think again, Rik. You may not get your morality from the Bible but the many of the guys who founded this nation did. They had the crazy idea that all men were created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. When they found it worthwhile to enumerate those rights and list them in the Bill of Rights, the first among them were freedom to speak, freedom to practice your religion and freedom to keep and bear arms.

These freedoms came directly from the long standing beliefs of these men that morality was essential to good government and good living. They drew their standards from the Bible and God.

[b]"How necessary was the care of the Creator in making the moral principle so much a part of our constitution as that no errors of reasoning or of speculation might lead us astray from its observance in practice." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1814. ME 14:139

"[These are] the rights which God and the laws have given equally and independently to all." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:185, Papers 1:121

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796[/b]

Your right to bear arms and your right to speak freely, to believe what you want and to read and see what you want, came about only from the beliefs of men like Jefferson. By your standards posted here, you would today call these men fools and their beliefs crazy. I don't know if that's what you mean to say, but that's how it's coming out.

Sorry for the long post, but you get the idea.

Don't get me wrong garandman, I'm sure your a decent guy, despite your religion. I just think too much of anything is a bad thing. What always urks me about bible thunmpers is that you (not you personally, you as you bible thumpers) tend to think no religion=no morals. I have no religion, I don't cheat on my wife, I don't beat my wife or kids, I treat others as I would like to be treated. I've just seen way too "christians" that are complete hypocrites, and I think if they really believed than how could they possibly act that way. I'm sure I could easily name 100 people right off the bat that would say they are religious and believe in god but act like they have no moral character at all.

Some people may need religion to be a "good person", some of us don't. In the USMC I could see many recruits that really needed someone (D.I.) to tell them what to do every moment of their life or they were useless. I imagine some people need "the fear of god" to act morally and need threats of "going to hell" to not murder, lie, steal, or adulterize. I have no need for it. I am a good person because I choose to be and I imagine that you would be a good person whether you believed in the bible or not. Seems like the "fear" and "threats" make no difference to people who need them anyway. I know plenty of gang-bangers that have tattoos of crosses, the virgin mary (yeah right) and say they believe in god, yet they have no problems killing, stealing, etc. I don't think it's working for them.

To bring it back to your topic, I think there is nothing wrong at looking at pictures of nude women, specially beautiful nude women that are not doing anything disgusting. If looking at those pictures make you want to rape, then you need your frank & beans cutoff. That's like saying looking at pictures of Cadillac's will make me want to steal one. Theres plenty of sick people in this world that will blame everything but themselves for their actions. Does not make it true.

I may not believe in god, but I do support your right to believe in what you want as long as that does not hurt me or my family. We atheists just ask the same from you. BTW my wife and kids are not atheists and they are free to beleive what they want.

"I'm not talking about some hunter's shotgun or deer rifle. I'm talking about Saturday Night Specials and assault weapons of war that are only made for the purpose of killing as many people as possible"

Porn is porn, a gun is a gun. How do you rate the degree of evil?

A picture of a naked girl at 18 is harmeless adult entertainment but the same girl a day before her 18th birthday is kiddie porn. Where is the cutoff?

A rifle with a flash hider and bayonet lug is an evil weapon of mass destruction and the same gun without them is a sporting arm? The same illogic applies...  

I have been lurking around this website for some time and thank everyone for the knowledge I have gained. This thread has been very interesting to read.  I do believe I could argue for either camp here:  The conservative religious and the morally liberal (if that is a proper title -no offense).

This may be a little of topic but consider these ramblings:

I consider myself very religious but uncertain of the modern church in its many forms.  I have studied History and found that the control of people is often the aim of governments and the church. The government does it through force and the church through guilt and fear.

Most people have put more research into which car to purchase than into their religious beliefs. Ask someone what flavor of religion they are and then ask them why?. The answer you will usually get will be because that is what their parents were.  

Many people don't want to read any other texts or viewpoints because with knowledge comes responsibility and the inevitable decision of what to believe.  Don't forget the King James version is a book that is the result of many subsequent translations of a very different culture.  This different culture spoke differently and had vastly different customs. Add to that the selection of what was to be included was done by man.  This said, I beleive it to be very difficult to discern the meaning of many passages when you are coming at it from a 21st century western civilization viewpoint.

Being human and fallible, I find it hard with our limited intellect to think we understand God and his Grand Plans.  Beware those who do.

Black Adder,

Good post. You have identified some very real problems and you are thinking instead of slamming.

See ya on the boards!

Damn, Black Adder, for a first and second post you did pretty good.  Glad to have you aboard.  The voice of reason and common sense ain't so common.

I get the idea you don't know much about history, if you include Jefferson among the founders who believed the Bible.  He most certainly did not, and was an avowed Deist, as were several others of the Founders.  The Bible indeed CONTAINS the morality on which this nation is based, but it is not the ONLY religious document that contains it...and the Bible also contains a hell of a lot of other things that are NOT included in the moral foundations of this country, thank goodness.

for what it's worth:

"It is Impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"   --George Washington

So what?  He was a brave man, a competent general and somewhat of a politician (not a very good one, which is a COMPLIMENT, not an insult).  He was human...he is just as fallible as any other human being and just as likely to be wrong about something like religion, where this is no way to know the truth of the matter for sure.

Rik,

I went back and re-read my post. I don't think I said that Jefferson was a Christian. I pointed out that the general opinion of the founders and constitutional writers favored a governmental system formed from standards of Judeo-Christian ethics. Things like the freedom, dignity and security of the individual were important to them. Both Judaism and Christianity as belief systems emphasize personal responsibility and accountability for our own actions. So did the Founders. These are not my own opinions, but copied directly from their own writings. There is plenty more reference material to support that line of thinking.

In a more modern vein, allow me to ask you this question: Have you noticed that the people in politics who hate religion and God and "old-fashioned morality" are the same people who believe that a Big Government should run every aspect of your life? These same people want to take away your guns, too, so their job will be easier. Might be something to think about. It scares me...

Well, it's hardly accurate either.  First off, you're only looking at the two major parties when you make that statement. I know of several Libertarians that are unbelievers but don't want to curtail our Constitutional rights.
Second, just because someone is not a believer doesn't mean they hate Christianity.

Rik, I included my entire post and your response because I don't see how you are getting these ideas from what I type. You are misunderstanding me big time. I didn't say that just cause someone is not a believer they hate Christianity. I referred specifically to political figures who openly declare their hostility to religion and morality in general, Judaism and Christianity specifically. You are obviously not a Christian believer, yet I don't think you hate Christians. You can tell me you do and then I'll respect what you say. Til then I can only go by what you have written. Same with politicians. When they say they are "out to stop the religious right" I don't have to guess where they are coming from. These are the same who think only "their" Government should have all the guns.

I am not a Libertarian by party affiliation but I do believe in some of the same principles Libertarians do. Smaller, less intrusive government, minimal taxation, freedom of conciense and religion are all areas where we agree. So we are not so far apart. Let the shields down a little and just hear what I am saying, OK?

A couple of points and I'm on to AR's:

1/ You guys that always bring up the christian hypocrites you've met that turn you off so much consider this, the example here is Jesus Christ himself. Quit looking to men for your perfect christian.

2/To all us christians out there, the Scripture says tell the world about Christ. I don't see where we're told to shove it down their throats or "convince" them. They are responsible for what they do once informed.

BTW, if anyone is interested in why I believe Christianity is legit, email me and I'll give you the reasons I'm convinced. You can weigh it for yourself.

Off to AR land...

This is MY thread, and will be locked by me. Is that censorship??? [:D]

To All -

Feel free to re-start this discussion in another thread. For the most part , it was a good one. But has now run its course.