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Posted: 10/13/2005 9:30:15 AM EDT
It is a common theme on this forum to bemoan our loss of freedoms, national pride and the individual character of most Americans. We contrast this with the deeds of the men who founded this great nation and comment on the general decline from the past to the present.

And to be absolutely candid, we see a good many examples of evidence that actually support that case here every week. From the acts of politicians, restrictive legislation and reprehensible acts by citizens.

But much like the average officer who goes to work everyday and somehow managed to not shoot a dog in his entire 20 year career I think we overlook a good many things in our criticisms.

We sometimes fail to see and appreciate the good.

For example, as great as the Founding Fathers were, it was our Grandfathers who probably fought the greatest and most important conflict in human history. Now I certainly DO NOT wish to diminish or detract from what was done by the Founding Fathers as it made the deeds of the Greatest Generation possible in the first place.

But by all honest accounts WWII was the most brutal, costly and important conflict in human history. It was a time when the men of the world decided on a course of action, Democracy or Totalitarianism. On one hand you had the FREE WORLD where men governed themselves with personal liberty and freedom being the primary concern. And on the other hand you had the STATE where the needs of the state (as decided by the Dictator) were placed above personal freedom and liberty.

And while it is true that Soviet Russia (one of the 3 main enemies of freedom along with Germany and Japan) was allied with us during most of that conflict it was more of a case of political convenience than common ideology. Much in the same way Russia was initially allied with Nazi Germany. Once the evil empires of Japan and Germany were defeated the free nations correctly continued the conflict against the Russian totalitarian system which represented the greatest threat to the free world.

And we should remember that it was many of the children of the "greatest" nation that continued to fight the good fight. And it was in the time of their grandchildren that the fight against the evils of Russian Communism achieved victory.

And not only did we improve the world, we improved OUR country.

America of the 1920s and 1930s was a mess from a standpoint of freedom.

We embraced the psuedo science of Eugenics which was pioneered by the UK and advanced by the US until it became the basis and foundation for German racial policy in Nazi Germany. Our immigration policies served as a model for Germany and Hitler adopted them practically verbatim. And unknown to most today, the US served as a model for Germanys "forced sterilization" programs and the US sterilized all manner of US citizens from those with medical defects to those with social issues that a judge deemed "impactful on society."

America was notorious throughout the world for violent gangsterism in the cities from teh mobs created by Prohibition. Drug use and women of low virtue were bemoaned as a national disgrace here in America. In the 1930s Americans often viewed themselves as "hard luck sad sacks" to the point that 1930s bank robbers and killers were often respected for not being "suckers" and admired for taking the situation at hand and "getting theirs by any means."

In addition America of the 1920s and 30s was notoriously socialists. The country was FULL of Americans who honestly believed Marxism and Socialism were the way of the future and that a Utopian society was not only possible but necessary if this country was to survive into the modern world. And we are talking about REAL socialism here, not just "New Deal" policies of Roosevelt or even Johonsons "Great Society" which don't even come close to what many Americans DEMANDED of their government prior to World War II.

But as Stephen Ambrose noted. It was the people who were underage drinkers and lost their virtue in a "rumble seat" during the roaring 20s admiring the exploits of scarface Al Capone and who stood in bread lines out on their luck during the 1930s feeling as though they had been marginalized by "fat cat" politicians who only taxed them and dreamed of a socialist Utopia where all men were the same who would one day band together and fight the greatest forces of evil ever imagined by man. And they would not just "do their part" they would go above and beyond what anyone (possibly even them) even thought possible.

And they didn't do it because a ruthless government held their family hostage. They did it for the cause of freedom and to create a "better world" that their children may some day live in.

Possibly the best example of this character was demonstrated by recent Americans known as the "Nisei." These were first generation Americans born in this country of Japanese origin. Quite literally many had famlies "in camps" (because again even during the 1940s this country was still not perfect) and they had genuine cause to feel betrayed and marginalized by their country of birth. But the Nisei not only volunteered to fight in defense of this country, they did so at great cost and with incredible determination and were among the best decorated soldiers we sent to Europe. They earned our country pride, respect, humiliation and personal shame by their exploits. It was the acts of THESE Americans who taught us you don't put your own people into camps. The examples of Nazi Germany later reinforced those ideas.

So what does this teach us?

America is not a constant.

You cannot just wake up and expect the status quo. Liberty and freedom have ebbed and tided since we first threw British Tea into Boston Harbor. We have enjoyed periods of incredible freedom and prosperity followed by times of represssion and hardship. The important thing is the pendulum swings both ways.

And Americans may not be born with the country they deserve. But if they are lucky, they will be given the opportunity to make it the country they deserve.

It was not so long ago that our Grandfathers defeated Dictators bent on world domination. Had they failed we would not have known the America we know today. And it was little more than a decade ago that the "wall" feel and along with it the greatest threat of potential nuclear annihilation.

And while we fear the economic influence of China we should remember that 20 years ago we expected Japan to own "everything" in the United States by this point. It didn't really happen and China's days as a Communist powerhouse are likely numbered. Communism fails, period. And if they don't evolve into something else they will be a fallen nation like Russia when it happens.

And America, because we are Americans, will probably do as we always have done in the past. And I think THAT is why we are going to be ok. Regardless of the errors we are certain to make along the way.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 9:38:51 AM EDT
very nice!

sadly, it will get passed over by the ones who like to think America is somehow ready to fall :(

Link Posted: 10/13/2005 9:42:45 AM EDT
This from a guy who had two multipaged threads this week on how anti-gun corporations almost turned out the lights of his gun store, and how he's leaving the gun business because it's become too much of a hassle.


America was notorious throughout the world for violent gangsterism in the cities from teh mobs created by Prohibition. Drug use and women of low virtue were bemoaned as a national disgrace here in America. In the 1930s Americans often viewed themselves as "hard luck sad sacks" to the point that 1930s bank robbers and killers were often respected for not being "suckers" and admired for taking the situation at hand and "getting theirs by any means."

In addition America of the 1920s and 30s was notoriously socialists. The country was FULL of Americans who honestly believed Marxism and Socialism were the way of the future and that a Utopian society was not only possible but necessary if this country was to survive into the modern world. And we are talking about REAL socialism here, not just "New Deal" policies of Roosevelt or even Johonsons "Great Society" which don't even come close to what many Americans DEMANDED of their government prior to World War II.



None of this has changed. We have only come to accecpt it.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 9:44:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:


sadly, it will get passed over by the ones who like to think America is somehow ready to fall :(





Hopefully you are right, and we are wrong - but I think the deck is stacked for our fall.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 9:46:07 AM EDT
I wonder what they thought was coming when they brought in prohibition. I bet the reaction was worse than any of us have had to any of the stuff lately.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 9:54:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2005 9:54:21 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
This from a guy who had two multipaged threads this week on how anti-gun corporations almost turned out the lights of his gun store, and how he's leaving the gun business because it's become too much of a hassle.



Correct on the first point. America has never been perfect, it still isn't and the laundry list of things I'd fix if allowed is long indeed.

However with respect to the second point, I'm not getting out of the business due to America failing as a country. I'm looking for something else just because it is a lot of hard work with too little reward in relation to the effort. I don't mind working hard for a living, I've done that for years. I'm just looking for something with a lot less aggravation and frustration, I guess I'm getting old.

All that taken into consideration, combined with the fact that people have been made millionaires for spilling coffee on themselves and the fact that Ted Kennedy is a Senator and not a prision inmate, combined with all that I know is still GOOD and taken as a whole I still don't think all is lost.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 9:58:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I wonder what they thought was coming when they brought in prohibition. I bet the reaction was worse than any of us have had to any of the stuff lately.



I'm sure they were confident they were ushering in a new era of morality that would inevitiable lead to the Utopian ideal of the future.

American notions of socialism in the 1930s are simply staggering. Only the most hard core DUers still hold similar views.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 10:05:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
This from a guy who had two multipaged threads this week on how anti-gun corporations almost turned out the lights of his gun store, and how he's leaving the gun business because it's become too much of a hassle.



Correct on the first point. America has never been perfect, it still isn't and the laundry list of things I'd fix if allowed is long indeed.

However with respect to the second point, I'm not getting out of the business due to America failing as a country. I'm looking for something else just because it is a lot of hard work with too little reward in relation to the effort. I don't mind working hard for a living, I've done that for years. I'm just looking for something with a lot less aggravation and frustration, I guess I'm getting old.



Fair enough.


All that taken into consideration, combined with the fact that people have been made millionaires for spilling coffee on themselves and the fact that Ted Kennedy is a Senator and not a prision inmate, combined with all that I know is still GOOD and taken as a whole I still don't think all is lost.


No, all is not lost. There is still hope, but the time is running short and the majority are becoming increasingly content with the status quo.

"The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life. "

- Theodore Roosevelt
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 10:07:12 AM EDT
That was pretty good. Did you write that?
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 10:10:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Silesius:
That was pretty good. Did you write that?



Yes.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 10:13:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I wonder what they thought was coming when they brought in prohibition. I bet the reaction was worse than any of us have had to any of the stuff lately.



I'm sure they were confident they were ushering in a new era of morality that would inevitiable lead to the Utopian ideal of the future.

American notions of socialism in the 1930s are simply staggering. Only the most hard core DUers still hold similar views.

I wouldn't think though, that it would be the first, or last time, a tiny minority got their way.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 10:15:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:


For example, as great as the Founding Fathers were, it was our Grandfathers who probably fought the greatest and most important conflict in human history. .



Ya lost me right there.

WW2 is ONLY the war you've seen more about in the movies.

In WW2, the USA was the 800 lb gorilla. Half the German army was using horses and wagons, and they were lead by a raving madman, who made he worst tactical decisions in the history of warfare.

In 1776, Britain was the 800 lb gorilla. And a bunch of ragtag farmers and country boys beat them.

The Colonists victory was nothing short of a miracle of Biblical proportions.

And to assert that WW2 was more significant historically that 1776 is just loopy, more suited for the pothead threads.

But I agree with your general assertion - the country is actually moving in a more conservative direction, with people beginning to see liberalism has totally failed to deliver on its pie in teh sky promises.



Link Posted: 10/13/2005 10:16:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2005 10:19:52 AM EDT by photoman]

America was notorious throughout the world for violent gangsterism in the cities from teh mobs created by Prohibition. Drug use and women of low virtue were bemoaned as a national disgrace here in America. In the 1930s Americans often viewed themselves as "hard luck sad sacks" to the point that 1930s bank robbers and killers were often respected for not being "suckers" and admired for taking the situation at hand and "getting theirs by any means."

In addition America of the 1920s and 30s was notoriously socialists. The country was FULL of Americans who honestly believed Marxism and Socialism were the way of the future and that a Utopian society was not only possible but necessary if this country was to survive into the modern world. And we are talking about REAL socialism here, not just "New Deal" policies of Roosevelt or even Johonsons "Great Society" which don't even come close to what many Americans DEMANDED of their government prior to World War II.




And yet when you look at crime throught the country and don't take into account those crimes commited by gangsters against gangsters, America was the safest it's ever been, murder(again not related to gangster activity) rape, robbery, burglury were at all time lows.

Ya we were sad of for sure., NOT. Though the 1920's and 30's did show one thing rather well prohibition doesn't work for shit and infact only creates problems.


Not trying to take away from the post though it's a good post.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 11:00:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:


For example, as great as the Founding Fathers were, it was our Grandfathers who probably fought the greatest and most important conflict in human history. .



Ya lost me right there.

WW2 is ONLY the war you've seen more about in the movies.

In WW2, the USA was the 800 lb gorilla. Half the German army was using horses and wagons, and they were lead by a raving madman, who made he worst tactical decisions in the history of warfare.

In 1776, Britain was the 800 lb gorilla. And a bunch of ragtag farmers and country boys beat them.

The Colonists victory was nothing short of a miracle of Biblical proportions.

And to assert that WW2 was more significant historically that 1776 is just loopy, more suited for the pothead threads.

But I agree with your general assertion - the country is actually moving in a more conservative direction, with people beginning to see liberalism has totally failed to deliver on its pie in teh sky promises.







You are so wrong.

More people died in WWII than in any other conflict in human history. More people died in 1945 than in any year of human history.

And it wasn't just the goliath US against horse drawn Germany. It was the democracies of the world in conflict with totalitarian evil regimes bent on global domination. Had we not prevailed the world as we know it today would NOT exist.

In addition the brutality demonstrated by Japan and Germany, not just on the battlefield but against humanity in general, was nothing short of incredible. Children in unimaginable numbers were executed for no other crime than being born who they were.

With respect to your point about the FF I do agree. It was an incredible and unlikely longshot that produced this country.

But most historians, and I agree with Ambrose on this one, think WW2 was the most significant conflict in history. And I don't think he or I fail to recognize the importance of the Revolutionary War or the deeds of the FF.

Perhaps we can find common ground here. I agree that the Revolutionary War was the more unlikely victory won against greater odds. But I think WW2 was the more important victory with greater risk regarding consequences.

Life in this country after a British victory would not have been the same and we would certainly NOT enjoy many of our current freedoms.

But life as a result of German and Japanese victories would have changed the world and would have made life in a British colony seem like the epitome of freedom as a result.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 11:17:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2005 11:18:01 AM EDT by LonePathfinder]
While the scale of WWII is not in doubt, once the US entered the war there was no doubt that we would win.

It was game over on Dec 7, 1941. Even if the entire US fleet was gone, we built a fleet of new ships twice their number during the course of the war. Yes it would have taken longer, but the US always had manpower and industrial advantage over her enemies.

The revolution was never a sure thing. That war was not a automatic win. We were fighting the country with all the advantages and we won.

I'm really tired of all this greatest generation praise. Sure they did good, but what about the civil war generation? Was that any less important to our history? Ditto the revolutionary war generation. If we want to get nit picky, the greatest generation failed in the rearing of their children hence the baby boomers. Look at our country since the baby boomers started to grow up.

I'm not bad mouthing, but I dislike blind fan-boy-isms of any kind including pseudo history that conforms to the ra-ra we did no wrong revisionism that many times comes up with the greatest generation.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 11:28:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2005 11:32:09 AM EDT by Dance]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

For example, as great as the Founding Fathers were, it was our Grandfathers who probably fought the greatest and most important conflict in human history. Now I certainly DO NOT wish to diminish or detract from what was done by the Founding Fathers as it made the deeds of the Greatest Generation possible in the first place.

But by all honest accounts WWII was the most brutal, costly and important conflict in human history. It was a time when the men of the world decided on a course of action, Democracy or Totalitarianism. On one hand you had the FREE WORLD where men governed themselves with personal liberty and freedom being the primary concern. And on the other hand you had the STATE where the needs of the state (as decided by the Dictator) were placed above personal freedom and liberty.




I would disagree with this part. I would say that WW2 comes in third or 4th after what the Founding Fathers and "We the People" did in the 1770's (1), The Civil war (2), and maybe WW1. Although it may be more important then WW1.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 11:38:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:


For example, as great as the Founding Fathers were, it was our Grandfathers who probably fought the greatest and most important conflict in human history. .



Ya lost me right there.

.

And to assert that WW2 was more significant historically that 1776 is just loopy, more suited for the pothead threads.





You are so wrong.

More people died in WWII than in any other conflict in human history. More people died in 1945 than in any year of human history.

And it wasn't just the goliath US against horse drawn Germany. It was the democracies of the world in conflict with totalitarian evil regimes bent on global domination. Had we not prevailed the world as we know it today would NOT exist.

In addition the brutality demonstrated by Japan and Germany, not just on the battlefield but against humanity in general, was nothing short of incredible. Children in unimaginable numbers were executed for no other crime than being born who they were.



YOur inital assertion was "Greatest and most important conflict." NOW you introduce the concept of scale. NO ONE would argue with the scale of the two wars, but we were discussing importance, NOT scale.




But most historians, and I agree with Ambrose on this one, think WW2 was the most significant conflict in history. And I don't think he or I fail to recognize the importance of the Revolutionary War or the deeds of the FF.



If we didn't win in 1776, there wouldn't have been a WW2.




Perhaps we can find common ground here. I agree that the Revolutionary War was the more unlikely victory won against greater odds. But I think WW2 was the more important victory with greater risk regarding consequences.

Life in this country after a British victory would not have been the same and we would certainly NOT enjoy many of our current freedoms.

But life as a result of German and Japanese victories would have changed the world and would have made life in a British colony seem like the epitome of freedom as a result.



Agreed.

I just see 1776 as more important as it was ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to there being an America to win WW2.

1776 was more important in teh same way a foundation is more important than the house. It in no way diminshed the house, but there never is a house without a foundation.

Link Posted: 10/13/2005 12:15:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2005 12:20:58 PM EDT by kill-9]
SteyrAUG, while I appreciate your application of perspective and history to the question of the declining Republic, I can't echo your optimism. What you fail to account for is the steady move to the left, which has accelerated over the past 90 years. The (progressive) income tax, the new deal, welfare, medicare, medicaid, social security, foreign aid, property redistribution from rightful owners to other private parties, etc, etc are all indicative of movement toward socialism, and the fact that the Supreme Court has found nothing in the Constitution to strike down each of these has eroded the meaning of the document considerably. An erosion that continues, practically unabated.

Remember, the Constitution is the only thing between us individual citizens and abject tyranny.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 12:19:07 PM EDT
Steyr, Your post is optimistic but you forget one ingreident. Technology. Also so-called "social progress". Without Eletricity would we have the world the way it is? No. Without Oil what would the world be like? Anyone with common sense can tell that the period 1880-2005 was like no other in history. Things radically changed, some for the better some for the worse. Do i belive the US is about to Fall? Nonsense. But the "future US", do you want to live in it? Depends on what it is of course, but what if it resembles a socialist or faschist "utopia"? As much as i hate "anti-technology" people i truly belive it is the newer technology that allows the "state" to enslave us. Back in the 16th century king James tried to ban tobacco! But it was a big joke. Why because the "state" or "crown" was unable to enforce it's will on the people. People brought in Tobacco with little hinderance and sold it on an unregulated open market. There was no "police apparatus" to crack down on this. Most people lived in the rural areas and knew eachother, So "social control" over them was hard. It was not unusual for the kings "agents" and tax collectors to "dissappear" after entering a dense forest while traveling. People who lived nomadic lives tended to literally be "Free" unhindered by "empire builders". In the last 150 years every Gov't on the face of the earth has tried to force these people to "settle down" and be "subjects" (after all it was in their own best interests ) America did the same to the Native Indians. NO, i fear the more we live in big cities and the better the Police state Technology gets the greater the danger of a freedomless society we become. Each year we lose more and more freedoms in the name of this or that. Each year the state is better able to "watch us". Do you think Communism would've been possable in a 13th century country?
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 12:26:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
With respect to your point about the FF I do agree. It was an incredible and unlikely longshot that produced this country.




Why yes, it is.

Almost as if Someone had Their Mighty Hand upon these fine men.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 12:31:17 PM EDT
Wow. A refreshing read.

A great post. It is hard to be optimistic at times, but those are good reasons.

Link Posted: 10/13/2005 12:34:35 PM EDT
The only people I hear talking about the end of the US are the people on this board, talking about how gay marriage and no prayer in public schools is the beginning of the end.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 12:36:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2005 12:49:26 PM EDT by wganz]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
the fact that people have been made millionaires for spilling coffee on themselves



The facts are:

- the store had previously been twice cited by their corporate auditors that their coffee was too hot at > 200°F
- the coffee was dropped into the lap of a drive thru patron, not that she poured it in her own lap
- the cap was not placed on tightly since the sides of the cup were too hot to hold to press the top on securely
- the server held the cup by this lid since the sides were too hot for her to hold
- the customer was seat belted in and it took almost a minute for her to move forward enough to be able to get out of the seat
- she suffered 2nd degree burns that required skin grafts in her perineal area.

Yeah, I'd sued them also for pouring almost boiling hot liquid on me and sending me to a burn unit for skin grafts after they had previously been warned twice to turn it down. Especially, if they had poured it on top of Mr. Happy!

Now, back your regular SteyrAug thread rant.

wganz

Link Posted: 10/13/2005 12:37:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jquillen1985:
The only people I hear talking about the end of the US are the people on this board, talking about how gay marriage and no prayer in public schools is the beginning of the end.




Well, most people never knew when the beginning of the end actually began. Cuz by the time they saw the beginning, it was almost the end.

Can't blame us for trying to guess.

Link Posted: 10/13/2005 12:45:42 PM EDT
Rome is still burning.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 12:59:56 PM EDT
I have no respect for the generation that put Franklin Roosevelt into office FOUR TIMES. That man changed this country. He actually made it illegal for Americans to own gold, except for some jewelry. People were burying their gold like some do their guns. He pushed thru many other unconstitutional laws, redefined interstate commerce, etc. etc.

wganz, also the jury's award was reduced as per the law in many states, she didn't get millions, believe she needed reconstructive surgery

Link Posted: 10/14/2005 9:56:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:


If we didn't win in 1776, there wouldn't have been a WW2.



As we are in agreement on all the other points, I just wanted to point out that we are in agreement on this one as well. In fact I raised this very issue in the original post.

"Now I certainly DO NOT wish to diminish or detract from what was done by the Founding Fathers as it made the deeds of the Greatest Generation possible in the first place."
Link Posted: 10/14/2005 9:58:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
With respect to your point about the FF I do agree. It was an incredible and unlikely longshot that produced this country.




Why yes, it is.

Almost as if Someone had Their Mighty Hand upon these fine men.




I'm telling ya that Flying Spaghetti Monster is a hellova guy. And tastes great too.
Link Posted: 10/14/2005 10:08:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
It is a common theme on this forum to bemoan our loss of freedoms, national pride and the individual character of most Americans. We contrast this with the deeds of the men who founded this great nation and comment on the general decline from the past to the present.

And to be absolutely candid, we see a good many examples of evidence that actually support that case here every week. From the acts of politicians, restrictive legislation and reprehensible acts by citizens.

But much like the average officer who goes to work everyday and somehow managed to not shoot a dog in his entire 20 year career I think we overlook a good many things in our criticisms.

We sometimes fail to see and appreciate the good.

For example, as great as the Founding Fathers were, it was our Grandfathers who probably fought the greatest and most important conflict in human history. Now I certainly DO NOT wish to diminish or detract from what was done by the Founding Fathers as it made the deeds of the Greatest Generation possible in the first place.

But by all honest accounts WWII was the most brutal, costly and important conflict in human history. It was a time when the men of the world decided on a course of action, Democracy or Totalitarianism. On one hand you had the FREE WORLD where men governed themselves with personal liberty and freedom being the primary concern. And on the other hand you had the STATE where the needs of the state (as decided by the Dictator) were placed above personal freedom and liberty.

And while it is true that Soviet Russia (one of the 3 main enemies of freedom along with Germany and Japan) was allied with us during most of that conflict it was more of a case of political convenience than common ideology. Much in the same way Russia was initially allied with Nazi Germany. Once the evil empires of Japan and Germany were defeated the free nations correctly continued the conflict against the Russian totalitarian system which represented the greatest threat to the free world.

And we should remember that it was many of the children of the "greatest" nation that continued to fight the good fight. And it was in the time of their grandchildren that the fight against the evils of Russian Communism achieved victory.

And not only did we improve the world, we improved OUR country.

America of the 1920s and 1930s was a mess from a standpoint of freedom.

We embraced the psuedo science of Eugenics which was pioneered by the UK and advanced by the US until it became the basis and foundation for German racial policy in Nazi Germany. Our immigration policies served as a model for Germany and Hitler adopted them practically verbatim. And unknown to most today, the US served as a model for Germanys "forced sterilization" programs and the US sterilized all manner of US citizens from those with medical defects to those with social issues that a judge deemed "impactful on society."

America was notorious throughout the world for violent gangsterism in the cities from teh mobs created by Prohibition. Drug use and women of low virtue were bemoaned as a national disgrace here in America. In the 1930s Americans often viewed themselves as "hard luck sad sacks" to the point that 1930s bank robbers and killers were often respected for not being "suckers" and admired for taking the situation at hand and "getting theirs by any means."

In addition America of the 1920s and 30s was notoriously socialists. The country was FULL of Americans who honestly believed Marxism and Socialism were the way of the future and that a Utopian society was not only possible but necessary if this country was to survive into the modern world. And we are talking about REAL socialism here, not just "New Deal" policies of Roosevelt or even Johonsons "Great Society" which don't even come close to what many Americans DEMANDED of their government prior to World War II.

But as Stephen Ambrose noted. It was the people who were underage drinkers and lost their virtue in a "rumble seat" during the roaring 20s admiring the exploits of scarface Al Capone and who stood in bread lines out on their luck during the 1930s feeling as though they had been marginalized by "fat cat" politicians who only taxed them and dreamed of a socialist Utopia where all men were the same who would one day band together and fight the greatest forces of evil ever imagined by man. And they would not just "do their part" they would go above and beyond what anyone (possibly even them) even thought possible.

And they didn't do it because a ruthless government held their family hostage. They did it for the cause of freedom and to create a "better world" that their children may some day live in.

Possibly the best example of this character was demonstrated by recent Americans known as the "Nisei." These were first generation Americans born in this country of Japanese origin. Quite literally many had famlies "in camps" (because again even during the 1940s this country was still not perfect) and they had genuine cause to feel betrayed and marginalized by their country of birth. But the Nisei not only volunteered to fight in defense of this country, they did so at great cost and with incredible determination and were among the best decorated soldiers we sent to Europe. They earned our country pride, respect, humiliation and personal shame by their exploits. It was the acts of THESE Americans who taught us you don't put your own people into camps. The examples of Nazi Germany later reinforced those ideas.

So what does this teach us?

America is not a constant.

You cannot just wake up and expect the status quo. Liberty and freedom have ebbed and tided since we first threw British Tea into Boston Harbor. We have enjoyed periods of incredible freedom and prosperity followed by times of represssion and hardship. The important thing is the pendulum swings both ways.

And Americans may not be born with the country they deserve. But if they are lucky, they will be given the opportunity to make it the country they deserve.

It was not so long ago that our Grandfathers defeated Dictators bent on world domination. Had they failed we would not have known the America we know today. And it was little more than a decade ago that the "wall" feel and along with it the greatest threat of potential nuclear annihilation.

And while we fear the economic influence of China we should remember that 20 years ago we expected Japan to own "everything" in the United States by this point. It didn't really happen and China's days as a Communist powerhouse are likely numbered. Communism fails, period. And if they don't evolve into something else they will be a fallen nation like Russia when it happens.

And America, because we are Americans, will probably do as we always have done in the past.And I think THAT is why we are going to be ok. Regardless of the errors we are certain to make along the way.



That's the problem right there.

America is being so diluted by massive immigration, legal and otherwise, that the very definition of "American" will change beyond recognition:

"Americans" that don't speak English (illegal Mexicans)

Love the Republic? I see more Mexican flags here than the Stars and Stripes

"Americans" who are non-Christians (Muslims)

Love the Republic? They HATE our culture

No, the Republic is fast dissapearing....
Link Posted: 10/15/2005 3:02:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Love the Republic? I see more Mexican flags here than the Stars and Stripes



You need to move out of California and into the Rocky Mountain states or even the midwest. There are still a few Mexicans, but other places aren't overrun like the southwest U.S.
Link Posted: 10/15/2005 3:24:53 AM EDT
Tag to read later.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 9:36:42 AM EDT
Kabump.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 9:45:07 AM EDT
Anything is possible. Choose wisely.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 9:45:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By Dino:


sadly, it will get passed over by the ones who like to think America is somehow ready to fall :(





Hopefully you are right, and we are wrong - but I think the deck is stacked for our fall.



I think it is stacked for their fall, and stacked for the real Americans to retake the seats.
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