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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:16:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2005 10:54:55 AM EDT by gunslingerdoc]
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:20:39 AM EDT

nothing that looks military


That kinda sums up how they feel. Be prepared to walk away from this club.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:21:18 AM EDT
Gun owners are their own worst enemies.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:25:25 AM EDT
The club that I used to be a member of allowed any legal firearm. Period. And that was in California.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:25:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

nothing that looks military


That kinda sums up how they feel. Be prepared to walk away from this club.



Well that means they ban:

Any mauser, and mauser derivate
Any enfield derivative
Any bolt action for that matter, as they all dervied from the same basic princicples used for war
Any 1911s
Any HK's
Any Berettas
Any BAR
Seems like all guns look or derive from military service.

Hmm... gonna have any shooters left?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:31:10 AM EDT
how did the club president get elected?
when is the next election?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:31:22 AM EDT
I take it you did not attend this monthly meeting in which this decision was made.Do they do a vote of the members in attendance to decide things like this?If so it sounds like either a majority of members or those in power have decided this to be the new policy.It seems to me unless you can get the prez. over-thrown or get a large majority of the members to back you it will be a lost cause.Besides if you could get this overturned you will probably get nothing but grief at this range from here on out.Sometimes you have to pick your battles,I say let these ass-hats have thier close minded ideals and shoot somewere else.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:33:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By purplecheese:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

nothing that looks military


That kinda sums up how they feel. Be prepared to walk away from this club.



Well that means they ban:

Any mauser, and mauser derivate
Any enfield derivative
Any bolt action for that matter, as they all dervied from the same basic princicples used for war
Any 1911s
Any HK's
Any Berettas
Any BAR
Seems like all guns look or derive from military service.

Hmm... gonna have any shooters left?



your right, the owner should have said "nothing that looks like modern military".
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:35:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Gun owners are their own worst enemies.



+ 1,000,000

Tall Shadow
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:36:49 AM EDT
Who actually owns the club?

Their club, their rules.

If you want it your way then run for office and make the necessary rule changes that you want.

Short of that, find another club.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:51:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

nothing that looks military


That kinda sums up how they feel. Be prepared to walk away from this club.



Beat me to it.

They banned military weapons because they think that those weapons will draw negative publicity.
They think the anti-gunners will leave them alone because they have chosen PC weapons.
They are throwing you out of the sleigh hoping to appease the wolves.

Next club meeting you need to bring this up.
Make it clear that all gun owners are in this together.
Remember that cut-up snake cartoon from the French and Indian War?
Join or Die?

Copy it, and re-label it.
Shotgunners, hunters, Class III, etc.

Make a stink - but don't be an ass.
Make this about GUN CONTROL.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:10:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:19:53 AM EDT
I think your next project should be a ma duce.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:28:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By purplecheese:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

nothing that looks military


That kinda sums up how they feel. Be prepared to walk away from this club.



Well that means they ban:

Any mauser, and mauser derivate
Any enfield derivative
Any bolt action for that matter, as they all dervied from the same basic princicples used for war
Any 1911s
Any HK's
Any Berettas
Any BAR
Seems like all guns look or derive from military service.

Hmm... gonna have any shooters left?



Aren't there one or two deer rifles that are also used as military sniper rifles?

Doesn't this ban virtually all muskets, black powder rifles, 1911s, Beretta 92, Single Action Army revolvers, etc? Doesn't this ban Mossberg 500, 590, Winchester Model 12, Remington 870?

Morons. Absolute morons.

Jim
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:29:39 AM EDT
A retired army cook that won't allow military weapons. Something is wrong there.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:34:38 AM EDT
With credit given to John Ross:

THEY SAY: “Those assault rifles have no sporting purpose. You don’t need a 30-round magazine for hunting deer--they’re only for killing people.”

WE SAY: “I compete in DCM High Power with my AR-15. You need a large-capacity magazine for their course of fire. My SKS is a fine deer rifle, and I’ve never done anything to give my government reason not to trust me blah blah blah.” (FLAW: You have implicitly conceded that it is OK to ban any gun with no sporting use. And eventually they can replace your sporting arms with arcade-game substitutes.)

WE SHOULD SAY: “Your claim that ‘they’re only for killing people’ is imprecise. A gas chamber or electric chair is designed for killing people, and these devices obviously serve different functions than guns. To be precise, a high-capacity, military-type rifle or handgun is designed for conflict. When I need to protect myself and my freedom, I want the most reliable, most durable, highest-capacity weapon possible. The only thing hunting and target shooting have to do with freedom is that they’re good practice.”

Something along these lines needs to be said.
We should hang together or else we shall all surely hang seperately.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:34:53 AM EDT
I would ask if that includes Remington and Mossberg 12 gauge shotguns too. They are loud and used by the military.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:48:32 AM EDT
I have a hard time thinking a CLUB would not put such a rule to a vote. Sounds like the range owner gives permission to the club to use his facility.

Any "Club" that does not put its bylaw changes to a vote is a dictatorship. And these are never fun.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:53:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By midwinter:
how did the club president get elected?
when is the next election?





+1-- When is the next election!!!!
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:07:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

nothing that looks military


That kinda sums up how they feel. Be prepared to walk away from this club.



Agreed. However, I'm not much one for "turning tail" and leaving (w/o a fight ).

Now, I'm a gun- RIGHTS nut, not a "gun nut". So I can (usually) differentiate between calibers and why X is better than Y in situation A. That sort of thing. BUT when you guys start talking serious technical - I'm lost - and usually not into being "found".

I've been kicking around an idea, and this might just be a good reason to assemble the info.

What I need, is the "typical "sportsman's" rifle" that would basically be EQUAL in caliber, and function to say an ar15. Just need a name - a pick is even better both would be great.

My basic idea is a flyer that shows a "muscle car" but NO "decals" or any "adornment" some "pastwel color (preferably) w/text running down the specs - v-8 (or str8-8 - whatever) W/a stamp across the photo of it that says "legal" then the SAME car - SAME specs etc... but THIS one has flame decals is cherry-red etc... it's stamp is "illegal". Then on the other side the "sportsman's rifle" w/"legal" stamp - and then the AR-15 w/an "Illegal" stamp.

MIGHT even take it farther... "legal" vs. "illegal" based upon appearance.

I've always said that "sportsmen" were the REAL "enemies" small minded .... (no offense intended to any spotsmen who frequent this site, as you are likely "reformed" sportsmen and not "scared" by the eevvviiilll black guunnnnzzzz!" .
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:17:30 AM EDT
I wonder if bowling leagues and model train clubs draw suppurating ass-boils to leadership positions, or if it's just gun clubs/ranges. I am so sick of dealing with and hearing about these shitburgers that I almost don;t want to shoot any more.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:47:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kacer:
What I need, is the "typical "sportsman's" rifle" that would basically be EQUAL in caliber, and function to say an ar15. Just need a name - a pick is even better both would be great.



not quite entirely sure i totally follow this, but i think i get the basic idea. as far as the "sporting" rifle of equal (equivalent work?) caliber and function to an AR-15, i'd have to say (from my limited experience) a Ruger 10/22 in .22 WMR would come closest. i don't know of any SA .223 rifles that don't look military.

your example using an AR-10 would be easier. for that, you could use a current production Browning BAR in .308 Win.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:34:41 AM EDT
870, 1100, 700's would be banned then. M24 and M40 = 700. Doesn't the navy have 870's and 1100's on ships?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:42:28 AM EDT
Except for a handful of brands and calibers, nearly every firearm ever produced was either intended for war or is a copy of a firearm intended for war.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:44:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 10:48:29 AM EDT by gus]
Next time show up with one of Barrett's bolt action .50's.

Seriously, I've walked away from several ranges due to the stupidity of their old floppy hat wearing "hunter" wannabe leaders. If you can change it, then do it. Don't be surprised if they ignore your logical arguments in favor of their own prejudice. Some of these idiots don't deserve any rights.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:46:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sslocal:

WE SHOULD SAY: “Your claim that ‘they’re only for killing people’ is imprecise. A gas chamber or electric chair is designed for killing people, and these devices obviously serve different functions than guns. To be precise, a high-capacity, military-type rifle or handgun is designed for conflict. When I need to protect myself and my freedom, I want the most reliable, most durable, highest-capacity weapon possible. The only thing hunting and target shooting have to do with freedom is that they’re good practice.”



You put that on a shirt and I'll wear it.

Well said.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:48:08 AM EDT
Everytime I hear about these things happeneing at clubs I'm even more thankful for mine. I'm sorry to hear about this at your club. I wonder though how a semi 191 can be louder then say a semi of any other type in 30-06 or 308. I just don't see it and doubt that it had anything to do with the ban, or at least not as much to do with it as the "military look". Sounds like ya'll need a change of leadership at that there club. Start trying to get support from other members and come the next election for board members vote out the old board.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:50:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kacer:

What I need, is the "typical "sportsman's" rifle" that would basically be EQUAL in caliber, and function to say an ar15. Just need a name - a pick is even better both would be great..



Ruger Mini-14 shoots .223. Gets lots of use as a truck gun / ranch rifle / deer rifle.

Jim
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:56:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Gun owners are their own worst enemies.



+1

Ripe for those that can divide and conquer.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:57:52 AM EDT
Man that situation sucks. I'd be curious if a vote were taken at your club, whether FA and military weapons would be accepted by the majority of the shooters in the club. Maybe you can stage a coup?
Our range allows FA, but requires owners to get cleared by the club board before they use the range,due to possible issues with unaimed fire or shots over the berm. Possibly that's an option if you can compromise. Luckily,my local club board is mostly old guys who are all good hard core 2nd amendment absolutists.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:02:18 AM EDT
Similar situation at our local club. I simply walked away. ARFCOM member Greenhorn had a few issues with this club and ended up getting voted out by the membership. I stood in his defense (even though I've never met the guy) and it opened up a whole slugfest (no pun intended) over bump firing, military-style firearms, full-auto, etc...

It came down to the fact that the landowner was a complete and total raging asshat, and no matter what the puppets at the club voted, he overruled what he didn't like. So... the club always went along with whatever he wanted so they could have their little flintlock and skeet range.

I said to hell with this crap and joined another club.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:10:37 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:12:30 AM EDT
The only way I can support a ban on FA fire is if unaimed fire could leave the range and possibly do harm to someone/something downrange.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:17:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 11:19:37 AM EDT by TRW]
All those bolt action deer rifles sure look like springfields and enfields and mausers to me. Didn't russia once adopt the M1895 winchester in 7.62 X 54 for their military? Guess all lever actions are also banned then.

Good luck, I hope you make these silly ignorant bastards look like fools and be ashamed of themselves.

Might be time to become a club officer and make sure that the term "any legal firearm" get added to the bylaws.

Still wondering how 3 people are allowed to make an executive decision. Most clubs require a certain percentage of the membership be present for a vote to be legal. Might look into that point also.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:37:19 AM EDT
Ignorance plain and simple.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:54:33 AM EDT
I guess you become an elitest when you run a gun club.

I went with my father-in-law and brother-in-law to a shooting range outside of
Springfield Illinois. I had never been there before, so I asked questions.

Indoor pistol range, outdoor rifle range.

Brother-in-law was a marine, but owns few guns.
He has always wanted to shoot my MAK-90 (AK-47 varient).

I mentioned shooting it at this range, and the owner said
"nope, I don't allow non of them guns that can shoot steel bullets".

I looked at the rack behind him, and there were other high-power rifles,
so I asked about an AR-15. He said sure.

THIS guy was simply prejudice against communist hardware.
(much like several readers if this forum)

I thanked him for his time, and left.
I advised my in-laws to spend their money elsewhere.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 12:00:49 PM EDT
You should follow through with your challenge, but something tells me that you may be outvoted. It sucks that the gun community is so poisoned by liberalism.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 12:05:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sslocal:
With credit given to John Ross:

THEY SAY: “Those assault rifles have no sporting purpose. You don’t need a 30-round magazine for hunting deer--they’re only for killing people.”

WE SAY: “I compete in DCM High Power with my AR-15. You need a large-capacity magazine for their course of fire. My SKS is a fine deer rifle, and I’ve never done anything to give my government reason not to trust me blah blah blah.” (FLAW: You have implicitly conceded that it is OK to ban any gun with no sporting use. And eventually they can replace your sporting arms with arcade-game substitutes.)

WE SHOULD SAY: “Your claim that ‘they’re only for killing people’ is imprecise. A gas chamber or electric chair is designed for killing people, and these devices obviously serve different functions than guns. To be precise, a high-capacity, military-type rifle or handgun is designed for conflict. When I need to protect myself and my freedom, I want the most reliable, most durable, highest-capacity weapon possible. The only thing hunting and target shooting have to do with freedom is that they’re good practice.”

Something along these lines needs to be said.
We should hang together or else we shall all surely hang seperately.



This coming from a Californian. I commend you, sir, and agree with you totally. I hate how supposed RKBA supporters never say that it's not about hunting or sporting. No one has the balls to simply say "the second amendment is not limited to recreation" Fuck!
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 12:05:36 PM EDT
if you always walk away eventually there will be no more clubs left to go to. The future is all like this, enjoy it while you can.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 12:33:35 PM EDT
Had a similar experience with one of the clubs I belong to. They had a vote and decided to ban the .50 BMG round. I was the only guy that had one so many did not give a shit. their rational was that the .50 tore up the berm. they used stats from the Brady bunch in order to make their decision.
Later that year there was an effort to ban full auto weapons. Again I am the only member that has MG's (C3). I let anyone in the club shoot them free of charge, then let them decide. It was a 99% vote in my favor to not ban them. Many were saying that we are a gun club and you do not ban guns! If I get another .50 I will have to see about getting that rule overturned.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 12:38:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gunslingerdoc:

So next week Im putting forward a challenge to the recent ruling (by 3 members) and asking for a vote. I'd like to hear your thoughts and logical arguments to see if Ive overlooked anything... sorry about the length



Godspeed my brother.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 12:51:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kacer:
Agreed. However, I'm not much one for "turning tail" and leaving (w/o a fight ).

Now, I'm a gun- RIGHTS nut, not a "gun nut". So I can (usually) differentiate between calibers and why X is better than Y in situation A. That sort of thing. BUT when you guys start talking serious technical - I'm lost - and usually not into being "found".

I've been kicking around an idea, and this might just be a good reason to assemble the info.

What I need, is the "typical "sportsman's" rifle" that would basically be EQUAL in caliber, and function to say an ar15. Just need a name - a pick is even better both would be great.

My basic idea is a flyer that shows a "muscle car" but NO "decals" or any "adornment" some "pastwel color (preferably) w/text running down the specs - v-8 (or str8-8 - whatever) W/a stamp across the photo of it that says "legal" then the SAME car - SAME specs etc... but THIS one has flame decals is cherry-red etc... it's stamp is "illegal". Then on the other side the "sportsman's rifle" w/"legal" stamp - and then the AR-15 w/an "Illegal" stamp.

MIGHT even take it farther... "legal" vs. "illegal" based upon appearance.

I've always said that "sportsmen" were the REAL "enemies" small minded .... (no offense intended to any spotsmen who frequent this site, as you are likely "reformed" sportsmen and not "scared" by the eevvviiilll black guunnnnzzzz!" .



How about a picture of a mini-14 Ranch Rifle compared to a Mini-14 GB


Next election try to oust all of the officers and replace them with Black Riflers.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 2:29:01 PM EDT
I know it could be a losing battle, but I would fight it anyway.

You said you really don't care too much about the club, so the fight would not be for you, rather for education of the other members. We need everyone, especially all gun owners to realize we're fighting a battle with the anti's, and if we divide, they win, period.

I say take any & every opportunity to educate people & show them there's no reason to bow down to the PC bullshit.

.02
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 2:45:49 PM EDT
First is it actually a club with membership? If so get the bylaws, then a copy of roberts rules of order. It is doubtful they can change or restrict memberships, or change the purpose of the club without a full membership vote.

Take all the friends you can to the next membership meeting.

Be ready for a bloodbath.

Private clubs of all types are the most political and crazy organizations in existence. These things usually end with one group being thrown out (when you lose) or all of them quiting when you win.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:00:59 PM EDT
My local range allows Class III weapons in the IDPA/IPSC pits.......and semiauto only shooting on the regular range.......making it one of the best gun clubs in the area...........many other ranges are whiney trap shooters who get snobby when they see black rifles.......
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:29:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:

Originally Posted By sslocal:
With credit given to John Ross:

THEY SAY: “Those assault rifles have no sporting purpose. You don’t need a 30-round magazine for hunting deer--they’re only for killing people.”

WE SAY: “I compete in DCM High Power with my AR-15. You need a large-capacity magazine for their course of fire. My SKS is a fine deer rifle, and I’ve never done anything to give my government reason not to trust me blah blah blah.” (FLAW: You have implicitly conceded that it is OK to ban any gun with no sporting use. And eventually they can replace your sporting arms with arcade-game substitutes.)

WE SHOULD SAY: “Your claim that ‘they’re only for killing people’ is imprecise. A gas chamber or electric chair is designed for killing people, and these devices obviously serve different functions than guns. To be precise, a high-capacity, military-type rifle or handgun is designed for conflict. When I need to protect myself and my freedom, I want the most reliable, most durable, highest-capacity weapon possible. The only thing hunting and target shooting have to do with freedom is that they’re good practice.”

Something along these lines needs to be said.
We should hang together or else we shall all surely hang seperately.



This coming from a Californian. I commend you, sir, and agree with you totally. I hate how supposed RKBA supporters never say that it's not about hunting or sporting. No one has the balls to simply say "the second amendment is not limited to recreation" Fuck!



Thank you.
I may have been born here and I still live here but I was raised by God fearing southern folks that taught me the difference between wrong and right.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:45:54 PM EDT
Use the democratic process to your advantage. Build support among members, have EBR types join the club, then take over. Reverse the F/A rule.

Then ban bolt rifles from August - February.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:53:36 PM EDT
Get a mini-30 and bump-fire the fuck out of it on the range.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:57:56 PM EDT
I read the first post but not all replies.

My opinion is that the club is either
a. stupid
b. worried about insurance/liability/other legal matters.

I don't know what it takes to run a gun club or a gunshop/range, but I would imagine that they must be insured. From the way it was banned suddenly and the dude was so furious, it could be he got some notice from his ins. co. that he was going to take it in the caboose on his rate unless he dropped FA shooting.

But, who really knows. Either condition a or b is going to be tough to fight.

Forget it. Move on and find a more suitable place.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:04:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 12:56:12 PM EDT by cmjohnson]
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:07:12 PM EDT
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