Wow, this is great.

Ok, here's my suggestions to those looking for some reading:

Required is both Atlas Shrugged and The Fountain head.  Start there.  

Philosophy, Who Needs it? Is great, esp. in the chapter on philosophical detection.  If you read nothing else in that book, that should be read.

The Virtue of Selfishness has been mentioned several times, and I agree.

Throw in "Anthem" anytime you want to read something a bit different in the same vein.  It's a pretty fun read.

If you're an Artist, don't forget the Romantic Manifesto.  I've been reading that on and off, but not quite where I'm at with Objectivism.

We the Living was wonderful--but the ending!  The ending...I'll never forget...I just sat stunned...shocked and saddened...

If you want some heavy conceptual philosophical reading, by all means study--not read, STUDY!--Introdcution to Objectivist Epistomology.  I actually have some notes on that book.


As to answering those questions I posted, I was searching for answers.  I was undergoing many many difficult life changes in 2003.  In that time, I picked up many books, some on management (which includes self-management issues), books on Zen, some Machievelli (sp?), even the Bible in my quest to understand everything that I was going through, everything that had been happening in my life over the past 4 years and culminating to a peak of disaster in 2003.

And then, I found Atlas Shrugged.  My dad had suggested I read it.  It was on my list of books to read, but I had been reading lots of non-fiction, I didn't realize it was a philosophy book.  I swear that the book described exactly some situations that I had been living through recently. I would be gripped and lost in that book at times, even reading all night.  That has not happened before or since.  The part about Hank and Lillian's marriage was partictularly difficult to read, but more difficult not to.  Other times other characters in the book were going through things very similar to what I had been going through--metaphorically, of course--and were just as difficult to read.  Many times I would read, and re-read passages, and the book was more like watching a movie of moments of my life than a book, including the racing pulse at times.  I think I finished the book in about a week and a half for the first reading, and I read each and every spare moment I had.  

Ayn Rand changed my life, no doubt.  In some ways, she saved my life, and I realize that I don't need to apologize anymore for things that I can do that others can't.  I don't have to apologize for being intelligent.  Never again.  For 26 years of my life, I spent it apologizing for the most positive traits anyone could ever have, including intelligence and work ethic and ambition.  I had alot of Objectivism thinking before I read Atlas, but for once in my life, someone else already had the answers for me--answers that made sense to me (unlike Zen, which made no sense to me).

I still work at becoming a better Objectivist, especially on becoming free of Guilt, but I've done much better now than at any other time in my life.  

But enough for now.

Quoted: I think we can all agree Dagny was a bit of a tramp...

That's a perfect instance of where Philosophical Detection comes into play.  

Suggesting agreement, as such that those in disagreement are somehow isolated and different, which pressures agreement.

No offense, but you made a perfect post to serve as a guniea pig.

Dagny got lots of ass, yes, but I wouldn't agree that she was a tramp.  Given a chance, I'd bag Condi Rice, Ann Coulter, and Michelle Malkin on alternating days, but not some drunken bar slut.  Would that make me a tramp?

RyanAR...I have been there, too.  If it weren't for Fountainhead and A.S. I'd still be as lost as ever.  I've been through the ringer myself and I learned that much of the misery in my life had been caused by my trying to "live down" to others expectations.  Needless to say, that has changed and I am, bit by bit, a better man for it!

I liked Atlas Shrugged, even if it did take forever to finish it.

Quoted: I am wearing my "Who is John Galt?" shirt RIGHT NOW...how ironical?

Did you just say "ironical"?


Steeeempy! You eeeediot!

Quoted: Quoted: I think we can all agree Dagny was a bit of a tramp... That's a perfect instance of where Philosophical Detection comes into play.   Suggesting agreement, as such that those in disagreement are somehow isolated and different, which pressures agreement. No offense, but you made a perfect post to serve as a guniea pig. Dagny got lots of ass, yes, but I wouldn't agree that she was a tramp.  Given a chance, I'd bag Condi Rice, Ann Coulter, and Michelle Malkin on alternating days, but not some drunken bar slut.  Would that make me a tramp?

Reminds me of "the argument of intimidation" from The Virtue of Selfishness.

"If you don't think Dagney was a tramp, why, you must be a fucking idiot."

Quoted: Reminds me of "the argument of intimidation" from The Virtue of Selfishness. "If you don't think Dagney was a tramp, why, you must be a fucking idiot."

I stand corrected.  You're right.

Quoted: Quoted: I think we can all agree Dagny was a bit of a tramp... That's a perfect instance of where Philosophical Detection comes into play.   Suggesting agreement, as such that those in disagreement are somehow isolated and different, which pressures agreement. No offense, but you made a perfect post to serve as a guniea pig. Dagny got lots of ass, yes, but I wouldn't agree that she was a tramp.  Given a chance, I'd bag Condi Rice, Ann Coulter, and Michelle Malkin on alternating days, but not some drunken bar slut.  Would that make me a tramp?

Please, take offense...

Lighten up, jackass.  You made a perfect post to demonstrate your complete lack of being able to detect sarcasm.

Big fan

Quoted: Quoted: Reminds me of "the argument of intimidation" from The Virtue of Selfishness. "If you don't think Dagney was a tramp, why, you must be a fucking idiot." I stand corrected.  You're right.

Good fucking Christ, why are so many Randoid's this uptight?  I'm a big fan of Rand, and have read everything, as far as I know, that she has ever published.  Even bought a copy of her appearance on Phil Donahue's show when I was exploring everything about her I could get my hands on about 15 years ago.

Ooooh...here's a shocker.  Dominique Francon?  Well, might I be SO BOLD to suggest, that, well, we can all agree...she was a tramp as well?

And once again, please take offense....

Holier than thou assholes.  Lighten up, and get off your pedestal.

I enjoy Rand.  It is interesting watching OE try to incorporate (after all this time) , the concept (as they would state it) of God and OE.  Its interesting that now I show up and read this thread and low and behold everyone is talking about Rand and GOD..  Rand was atheistic.  

Most of Rands concepts are true, and viable, regardless of her personal thoughts about Divinity or God Almighty..  But RAND will only go so far. After that you are still left asking questions. Not that Rand was correct, she was as correct as any atheist could be.

I am not saying that sense Rand or OE won't take you the whole way, that it is some sort of Default back to some sort of Socialistic nonsense.

Rand stated that God is unknowable.....

The Bible states, "Tychicus will teach you all things."

Well Rand was fine, but Tychicus is bad ass.  

Put it this way, Rand can't hold a candle to God, Moses, or Jesus Christ.

Look I think Rand is from a certain point of view right on, and without negating that POV , i will say
go talk to someone who has the HOLY GHOST.  I think you may find the those with the HOLY GHOST have something on any would be character created by Ayn Rand including Atlas Shruggs "John Galt".  They may not speak of it, they may not tell you anything at all. But Rest assured Rand doesn't have all the answers. And you are going to get all the answers anyways.  

Made it through Atlas Shrugged.

Prefer Milton Friedman - pure capaitalism minus the verbosity.

She was an inspiration to me in that it is OK to be pure and unashamed about a free market, and that ALL parties in .gov will hate you for being so.

Quoted: Read We The Living.  It is as close to an autobiography of Rand that you will ever find. I've read most of her stuff when I was in high school.  She was very influential on me, and my philosophy of life and things.

It is?  'We the LIving' is a fictional novel about a russian woman running from oppression.  She's eventually gunned down in the snow.  I don't think Rand's life as a academic/writer is even remotely similar.

Quoted: Holier than thou assholes.  Lighten up, and get off your pedestal.

dang Fing right.

I've always been a fan of hers.  The Fountainhead is my favorite book, and I enjoyed Atlas Shrugged.  You have to be aware of the inconsistencies between the womans fictional ideals and her own life.  She is by no means an end-all philosophical juggernaut.

Great author, though.  Changed my perception of work, management, free will, and pride.

Quoted: Quoted: Read We The Living.  It is as close to an autobiography of Rand that you will ever find. I've read most of her stuff when I was in high school.  She was very influential on me, and my philosophy of life and things. It is?  'We the LIving' is a fictional novel about a russian woman running from oppression.  She's eventually gunned down in the snow.  I don't think Rand's life as a academic/writer is even remotely similar.

Ms. Rand was a Soviet refugee/immigrant. She came over to the US in the early 1920s.

Her medium for expressing her ideas was typically through extreme analogy under the contstruct of logical connection... she did it with unparralled skilled and craft... obviously, the life of Kira Argounova and Ayn Rand are not identical but I would argue that they might have been relatable.

Rand's life in embronic Soviet empire was probably not as interesting or dramtic as Argounova's and as such would make for dull reading... Rand used We the Living as vehicle to share her impressions and insight into life inside the liberals' utopia while providing an interesting and captivating setting and plot. This is the classic form of teaching and sharing philosphy, going back all the way to Plato and Aristotle.

Changed my life!!!

I don’t work. I don’t play.

As a teenager I wanted to blame anyone but myself for my problems.
That resulted in quite a miserable time.heIf every one else would, I think things would be better.
People would realize if they dont get off there lazy ass ther going to DIE...

Unfortunately our gov forces us to help those who refuse to help themselves.

Quoted: I believe many of us here can closely identify with at least one of the major characters in the book. I am a bit of Hank Rearden and a bit of Pirate, with a touch of Francisco.... Somebody needs to make a java website to help decide.

Now that's a good idea.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Read We The Living.  It is as close to an autobiography of Rand that you will ever find. I've read most of her stuff when I was in high school.  She was very influential on me, and my philosophy of life and things. It is?  'We the LIving' is a fictional novel about a russian woman running from oppression.  She's eventually gunned down in the snow.  I don't think Rand's life as a academic/writer is even remotely similar. Ms. Rand was a Soviet refugee/immigrant. She came over to the US in the early 1920s. Her medium for expressing her ideas was typically through extreme analogy under the contstruct of logical connection... she did it with unparralled skilled and craft... obviously, the life of Kira Argounova and Ayn Rand are not identical but I would argue that they might have been relatable. Rand's life in embronic Soviet empire was probably not as interesting or dramtic as Argounova's and as such would make for dull reading... Rand used We the Living as vehicle to share her impressions and insight into life inside the liberals' utopia while providing an interesting and captivating setting and plot. This is the classic form of teaching and sharing philosphy, going back all the way to Plato and Aristotle.

Rand immigrated to the US after the Bolshevik revolution in 1917.  She saw first hand what collectivism was all about.  I read an interview with her a few years back where she said We The Living was nearly autobiographical.  Much of her Objectivist thought came because of the Communism she was exposed to at an early age.

The book is fiction, with quite a few realities of her life.

Quoted: Are you a fan of Atlas, or Ayn Rand in general?

So-so.  Rand was not a well-balanced person.  This was obvious even in AS -- nobody has a single child in the whole book, as far as I can recall.  She didn't have any in real life, either.  And most Objectivists I know are childless.  It's a good way to kill off a political movement.

Many years later, I ran across Nathaniel Branden's story, which really put paid to any worship of St. Ayn.  I like her economic philosophy, but her writing was stilted, and as a person she didn't even remotely live up to her ideals.

How did you get turned on to Atlas, and did it change how you view life and the world?

Probably through Heinlein.  As I'd already been libertarianized by Heinlein, AS didn't change me much.

Were you religious before reading Atlas?  How about after?

Not particularly, and not particularly.  My conversion to atheism was unrelated to Rand's writings.

Have you read any other works by Rand?  Favroites?

I've read a bunch of her writings, including some of her essays.  I refer back to Anthem more than AS.

One thing that I have found contradictory about the writing of Ayn Rand, as opposed to the reality of Rand's life is her cold blooded approach to love and marriage.  She claimed that most men's sex lives were such a mess because they chased after what wasn't good for them, settled for whatever they could get, and then, inevitably and logically, moved on.

Her own sex life was pretty messy, too.  Married to Frank O'Conner, but having a torrid affair with her protege Leonard Peikoff, she lived and embodied the inconsistencies she claimed wrecked most peoples lives.

Fast forward to Atlas Shrugged where she redefined sexuality and coupling as the most capable women gravitating to the most capable man, inevitably and without regards to consequence.  Major industrialists and copper mine owners of exceeding brilliance weren't enough to captivate her against the most brilliant engineer, regardless of past love, history, and intimacy.  Her romantic ideals in AS had all the appeal of those of certain breeds of spiders, and were simply, it seems in hindsight, a construct to justify her own infidelity and inconsistency.

I like her books and bought them so I could read them when I want to instead of going to the library and checking them out.

I got into reading them when I was in my mid twenties so they mostly reinforced the direction I was already heading rather than leading me in any certain direction.

The books are not for everyone, but I like them and think they are worth reading.

Quoted: One thing that I have found contradictory about the writing of Ayn Rand, as opposed to the reality of Rand's life is her cold blooded approach to love and marriage.  She claimed that most men's sex lives were such a mess because they chased after what wasn't good for them, settled for whatever they could get, and then, inevitably and logically, moved on. Her own sex life was pretty messy, too.  Married to Frank O'Conner, but having a torrid affair with her protege Leonard Peikoff  NATHENIEL BRANDEN, she lived and embodied the inconsistencies she claimed wrecked most peoples lives. Fast forward to Atlas Shrugged where she redefined sexuality and coupling as the most capable women gravitating to the most capable man, inevitably and without regards to consequence.  Major industrialists and copper mine owners of exceeding brilliance weren't enough to captivate her against the most brilliant engineer, regardless of past love, history, and intimacy.  Her romantic ideals in AS had all the appeal of those of certain breeds of spiders, and were simply, it seems in hindsight, a construct to justify her own infidelity and inconsistency.

Fixed it for ye.

Oops, thanks.  Got those 2 mixed, there.

Quoted: Quoted: I like her books and bought them so I could read them when I want to instead of going to the library and checking them out. If you check out Atlas Shrugged, just go ahead and pre-pay $7.49 in late fees at the get go.

Hehehehe...    well fuck you assholes, you all owe me $7.49.


I checked Atlas Shrugged out from the college library today. It is definitely a weighty tome. I've seen math textbooks thinner than that bad boy.


I  think someone in this thread mentioned Heinlein and Rand in the same breath, so I'll probably like it once I get into it since I like Heinlein's stuff so much.

Quoted: One thing that I have found contradictory about the writing of Ayn Rand, as opposed to the reality of Rand's life is her cold blooded approach to love and marriage.  She claimed that most men's sex lives were such a mess because they chased after what wasn't good for them, settled for whatever they could get, and then, inevitably and logically, moved on. Her own sex life was pretty messy, too.  Married to Frank O'Conner, but having a torrid affair with her protege Leonard Peikoff, she lived and embodied the inconsistencies she claimed wrecked most peoples lives. Fast forward to Atlas Shrugged where she redefined sexuality and coupling as the most capable women gravitating to the most capable man, inevitably and without regards to consequence.  Major industrialists and copper mine owners of exceeding brilliance weren't enough to captivate her against the most brilliant engineer, regardless of past love, history, and intimacy.  Her romantic ideals in AS had all the appeal of those of certain breeds of spiders, and were simply, it seems in hindsight, a construct to justify her own infidelity and inconsistency.

I would agree with this.  It did help me change my view of relationships, for sure.  I will admit that this has kept me single for some time, but that's a good thing: I had a habit of getting messed up with all the wrong sorts of girls (for me) anyway.  I've decided to stay single for awhile anyway until I know what I want in a female and out of a relationship before I try one again.

Also to answer another one of my own questions at the start of the thread, when I walked out on my xwife, the only book I had to read for a long time was the Bible.  Reading the Bible convinced me more than anything else that I should find another belief system.  

I was already on the path to Objectivism--as I said earlier--when I found Atlas.

Quoted: I would agree with this.  It did help me change my view of relationships, for sure.  .

I, too, found myself trying to apply rand's ideas to my own relationships.  Of course, I rattled of a string of abysmal judgment calls resulting in calamity and disaster, so I didn't exactly take it to heart.  seemed to prove her right that men tend to do stupid things, though, when it comes to women.

Quoted: Quoted: I would agree with this.  It did help me change my view of relationships, for sure.  . I, too, found myself trying to apply rand's ideas to my own relationships.  Of course, I rattled of a string of abysmal judgment calls resulting in calamity and disaster, so I didn't exactly take it to heart.  seemed to prove her right that men tend to do stupid things, though, when it comes to women.

So exactly what was it that Objectivism was causing you to do in your relationships that was so destructive?

I was thinking about this today.   At the time that some of this romantic stuff was going wrong I thought I was following her ideals on love and sex.  But if you ask me right now I probably could not solidly define those so I cannot really say that my own experience invalidated those concepts.

The biggest problem with Rand was that she had a clearly defined philosophy but never wrote a definitive tome that was systematic in nature.  A chapter in such an imaginary book entitled "Romance" would have cleared up a lot of things in my mind concerning her true beliefs.  As it is I try to extrapolate from her ideal characters what her own viewpoint was but that is a poor way of deciphering a philosophy.