Most places like that are rip offs.

The brake/alignment guy I go to here is awesome.  I have given him every opportunity to bleed me dry, and every single time he has refused to take even the smallest advantage.  

Every six months to a year, I take my car in for a brake inspection, alignment inspection, and tire rotation.  Every time, he cleans and adjusts my brakes (rear drums), checks my alignment, rotates the tires, and if I don't need an alignment, he sends me out with no charge.  I feel downright guilty!  I've asked him to do an alignment sometimes if it's just a tiny bit out just so I can write him a check for $35 and feel like I'm helping to support his business!

Absolute top notch guy.

Quoted: This is from my previous post.  READ THE REST OF THE ARTICLE :here ETA:  Carroll Smith Bio and website: here

After reading that article several times, I faile to see the point the author is making.

According to the article, if "Warping" in automobile brake is acknowledged as uneven surface due to abnormal wear and improper bedding. Then, the  the inherit behavior of disc brake compound to "Deposit" and cause "Cementite" which leads to an uneven surface and can be corrected with Blanchard ground(Which is a surfacing truing process similar to how flywheels are machined).  No matter how you can use science and theoretical methods to explain the process, the Uneven Surface is still really laymen's term for "warping".

Quoted: Quoted: This is from my previous post.  READ THE REST OF THE ARTICLE :here ETA:  Carroll Smith Bio and website: here After reading that article several times, I faile to see the point the author is making. According to the article, if "Warping" in automobile brake is acknowledged as uneven surface due to abnormal wear and improper bedding. Then, the  the inherit behavior of disc brake compound to "Deposit" and cause "Cementite" which leads to an uneven surface and can be corrected with Blanchard ground(Which is a surfacing truing process similar to how flywheels are machined).  No matter how you can use science and theoretical methods to explain the process, the Uneven Surface is still really laymen's term for "warping".

Uneven surface means smooth, rough, smooth, rough, smooth, rough....and uneven surface TEXTURE would have been better terminology.  

Carbides are a type of Cementite, like tungsten Carbide and if you have a very hard surface adjacent to a softer surface on a brake rotor (cast iron with patches of cementite) the surface has become UNEVEN  
Just like the finish on a gun barrel can be UNEVEN, it does not mean the gun barrel is warped.

ETA:  this is one of the photos showing an uneven surface.:



What the author is pointing out is that the "shaking" feeling is actually the pads slipping and then gripping very rapidly as they slide past softer, undamaged parts of the rotor and then slip on the harder, less grippy parts of the rotor.  
Say you did this, on a bicycle, inlay some 120 grit sandpaper on the rim where the brake pad grips.... take the bike up to speed and hit the brake.... the bike will slow better on one part of the rim then the other.  Now do this with a vehicle that has two front wheels, one wheel is going to slow more rapidly then the other, and then it will slow at the same speed and the other wheel will do the same.  All of this will happen VERY fast as they are rotating... YOu now have your wheels shaking like something is warped.

The old improperly torqued and over-tightened warped rotor syndrome seems to be a myth.  Maybe that explains why NASCAR tightens racing wheels with high powered air guns, in a circular fashion as opposed to the universally accepted star pattern, and never seems to suffer from warped rotors.  Hmmmmm...........

Quoted: The old improperly torqued and over-tightened warped rotor syndrome seems to be a myth.  Maybe that explains why NASCAR tightens racing wheels with high powered air guns, in a circular fashion as opposed to the universally accepted star pattern, and never seems to suffer from warped rotors.  Hmmmmm...........

ETA: After driving at Petty... a little wiggle in the wheel is the LAST thing on your mind, it is certainly not a smooth sunday drive in grandma's Lincoln.

Nascar brake discs only have to last one race, plus they never get "cold" and they are VERY thick, versus a passenger car or truck.  On the highway you might slam on your brakes once and then drive 300 miles in 12 degree weather, then slam on your brakes again, etc.  each time you do that your rotors heat up VERY fast, but then cool to ambient temps.  I doubt even on superspeedways that happens during a race.

Also i would not doubt that the air wrenches that they pit crew uses are tuned to a certain torque.



"...NASCAR iron discs are known to approach 1300 degrees Fahrenheit. Brembo engineers consider NASCAR the most severe application in race-car brakes. The cars are fast, heavy (3500 lb.) and restricted to 15-in. wheels which, in turn, limit disc diameter. This is countered by making the discs especially thick: 40 mm, around 1.6 in. Calipers must be standard aluminum. Intensive Computational Flow Dynamics techniques are used to optimize cooling airflow around these components and also in defining the geometry of disc vanes."

- Road & Track September 2005

If the rotors are warped the front-end will start going up and down like a damn dolphin and you will feel the brake pedal pulse up and down while pushing it at low spped.

I tried to get a local garage to turn the rotors on my 03 Impala.  They wouldn't.  They said that rotors are now so cheap ($30) that it makes more sense to just shit can them and buy new ones.

The point is you really can't warp cast iron rotors with an airgun.  Tin foil ones maybe.   Bill Goldberg couldn't warp 'em with a titanium four-way wrench.  Old wive's tale from the 70s to cover a car mfg. ass.  But, it will never die so fuck it.  Believe what you will.

Quoted: I always do my own brake jobs.  Disc brakes are ridiculously easy.  Aside from maybe a star drive, you only need household tools.

agreed - i have been doing my own brakes even at the apartments...

Quoted: The point is you really can't warp cast iron rotors with an airgun.  Tin foil ones maybe.   Bill Goldberg couldn't warp 'em with a titanium four-way wrench.  Old wive's tale from the 70s to cover a car mfg. ass.  But, it will never die so fuck it.  Believe what you will.

It is not the WRENCH that is messing up the rotors, is is the stresses involved in DRIVING and BRAKING.  Say you are braking in a turn and 2 out of 5 or 2 out of 4 lugnuts are looser or tighter then the others..... The disc is then going to have a different side to side play as the forces acting on the disc push and pull.

I have to wonder about the quality of steel being used in rotors today. I have seen several newer vehicles with rotors that seem to get torn up quickly even with sane drivers.

I do my own brakes for WAY less.  

Most places won't even turn rotors any more..too much pain in the butt for the cost.

I did my pontiac all the way around this summer (I waited til it was metal on metal..dummY). and it cost me $200 for brake pads and 4 rotors.  Rotors were like $25 and I bought the better ones (not the 18 dollar ones). Pads were about like 28 and 36 and this was the first time I ever did it so I bought a few tools I didnt have (big c clamp, star socket, brake non-squeak stuff, etc) but I will have those for a while.

I even did the wifes BMW front brakes (BMW and others quoted me 450 for pads and rotors).  I got the pads and rotors and sensor out of california (pads were like 50, rotors were 50 each (dealer wants 125) and sensor was 15...hardest part was paying $30 shipping as rotors are heavy.

I will always try and do my brakes now.  Only took about 3 hours for the pontiac (learning curve) and an hour or so for the BMW (have to use a hammer to knock off the rotors) and I will always usually have more time than money.  

Do it yourself, otherwise you are paying a lot for labor and being taken on parts. My boss took his camry to dealer and had brakes and rotors.  They charged him 100 bucks a rotor (parts) and 100 bucks to put them on each...HAHAHA.  I called NAPA and told him that they had rotors for $25 bucks but he wanted the dealer to do it.  And he never even got any KY jelly in the deal.

Do your own brake work.  I usually just replace the rotors instead of having them turned - I can buy a $20 rotor when I get the pads and do the job in an hour; or I can tear the brakes down, pack the rotors up, drive an hour round trip and pay $10 each to have them turned, then hope they clean up without getting too thin.  

One thing I learned the hard way:  NEVER tear down both sides of a drum brake system unless you know exactly how it goes back together.  You always have the other side to use as a reference since they are mirror images of each other.  

Quoted: Do your own brake work.  I usually just replace the rotors instead of having them turned - I can buy a $20 rotor when I get the pads and do the job in an hour; or I can tear the brakes down, pack the rotors up, drive an hour round trip and pay $10 each to have them turned, then hope they clean up without getting too thin.   One thing I learned the hard way:  NEVER tear down both sides of a drum brake system unless you know exactly how it goes back together.  You always have the other side to use as a reference since they are mirror images of each other.

Plus a Few on that...  I replaced all my brake lines with SS braided, New front rotors, flushed the lines completely, but I only did one at a time, even though I have the shop manual.... Not worth the risk to do both at the same time.  ETA, I am PRETTY sure that most Autozone/napa parts are at the very least made of imported metal, then finished here or just foreign crap made in india from broken ships.
But to answer one of the questions above..... I am CERTAIN that the metal (cast iron not steel) in rotors today is crap.  total crap.... Fucking LODGE needs to get into the brake rotor business... I have a pan of theirs that must be 50 years old and it is still kicking... I have cooked rotors in 5 months.

I don't want to spend big $$$ for slotted rotors or plain rotors, made here in the USA because the cost is prohibitive.  

The warped rotor myth is always blamed on over tightening with an air gun.  Not unequal pressure.  But, even if the torque was unequal, it still wouldn't warp a cast iron rotor.  Can't happen.
I can't tell you how much money I've won on these wive's tales, sound-so-true, baseless myths.

Quoted: My wife drives an 02 Impala LS. She needed an oil change so I told her to take it to the Munroe muffler and brake shop near where she works. Wednesday is ladies day and they charge $11.99 for lube, oil and filter. I can't do it that cheap. I tell her to ask them to check the brakes while they had it on the rack. She was approaching 40K and I knew the front pads were just about due. She calls me and tells me that the car needs new brakes and rotors all around and it's going to cost over $500.00. I tell her they are full of shit and to have them just do the oil change. That weekend I pull the wheels and find that I was right about the front pads. The rear were worn about halfway through. $30.00 and 1 hour later she was good to go. Rip off artists? More like common thieves.

Sounds like the situation a friend of mine experienced lately.  He's not the most mechanically inclined & went to one of the chain brake/muffler/etc places.  They fed him the same line of crap re new this, rebuild-turn that, etc.  When I heard this I set him straight.
Any mechanic work that doesn't involve specialized $$$$$ tools I'll do myself, thankyouverymuch.  

Most auto merchants are ripoff artists.  

Just recently they tried to charge me for a power steering and brake fluid flush.   That is just stupid.  Most cars can go 25 years with the same power steering fluid.  

They are just in the business to make money.  Unfortunately they base it off of the fact that people are gulliable.

Max

Quoted: My wife drives an 02 Impala LS. She needed an oil change so I told her to take it to the Munroe muffler and brake shop near where she works. Wednesday is ladies day and they charge $11.99 for lube, oil and filter. I can't do it that cheap. I tell her to ask them to check the brakes while they had it on the rack. She was approaching 40K and I knew the front pads were just about due. She calls me and tells me that the car needs new brakes and rotors all around and it's going to cost over $500.00. I tell her they are full of shit and to have them just do the oil change. That weekend I pull the wheels and find that I was right about the front pads. The rear were worn about halfway through. $30.00 and 1 hour later she was good to go. Rip off artists? More like common thieves.

See you have got that wrong, I common thieve would get $200, and you would know you were taken. An ARTIST gets the $500 and you aren't sure if you got taken or not.

We take the police cars in for service. They stay as patrol cars for 125,000 miles+, some are simply worn out from stem to stern by then. We ROUTINELY have officers up over 100 mph responding to calls. I do over 100 routinely several times a shift. When we slow from 100+ mph it is often HARD braking, not simply a "coast down".

I have gone to calls, after several minutes of HARD driving, and had smoking pouring off the brakes. One of the worst still had smoke coming off the brakes 15 minutes after I stopped.

In 10 years I can remember 1 set of rotors being replaced.................................................

I also bleive that warped rotors is a real problem. In most racing application the rotors are fairly thick, with air ducted to them. Relatively speaking street rotors are thinner, and nowhere near as well vented. I warped some rotors, sticking caliper, on one of my cars. It generally takes a lot of heat to get to the point where rotors could warp.

Question:  I have a 96 Taurus and I had a local mechanic do a brake job all the way around in late June.  He replaced the pads and did not turn the rotors.  The thing that bothers me is I still hear a sqeeking noise when I put on the brakes, what gives?

Thanks for all the great info guys.  You are making me want to do the next one myself.  I have done other minor stuff like alternators, etc. so hopefully I can do this without any problems.

Quoted: Quoted: Just Brakes is gay. Dunno about rotor warp being a myth, when I worked as a tech at a Jeep dealer there was a recall on the '99 GC because of warped rotors. Dunno is it was something else, but the TSB said 'warped rotors', FWIW. Imagine trying to explain to a soccer mom changes in crystal stucter of Iron

True.

Don't worry about squeaking.  Worry about grinding.

Most rotors should be changed at the time of  brake pad replacement.  Ever see how much metal there is in brake pads?  While looking at rotors, they may look as thick as new ones, but your seeing is a wear ring much like piston rings leave at the top of the bore.  In the middle of the braking surface the diameter will be less and if the rotors are still within the min. diameter thickness replace them anyway because if you have them turned or just put new pads on the rotor will still wear below the min thickness.  

Look at it this way.  Thats an important part in the brake system.  If you neglaect the rotor and if it fails a bad wreck can happen and you will be wishing you were't so cheap.  Automotive repairs are expensive.  If your not will to pay a mechanic going wages to have it done right then learn to do it yourself.