1" Groups At 500 Yards With A AK-47... - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 1" Groups At 500 Yards With A AK-47... (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:18:52 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Once again I never said it was better than a real HK. Also HK's are only that high because of the import ban. We both know that. Don't get me wrong I know a PSG1 would still be expensive.

It was hard to tell. You seemed to be suggesting that a PTR91 is more accurate than a HK91 and is capable of 1MOA.

And that is the CURRENT LE price for a PSG1, prebans are about $14,000. The $10,000 price has NOTHING to do with the import ban.

Quoted:
I don't know to many people who claim a Century is as good as the real deal like you mentioned.

Plenty of them in the HK forum.

Quoted:
So you don't think anyone who owns a PTR has a respectable opinion basically. When pretty the majority of those who own one will support my side I have a hard time feeling they are all full of BS. If you know someone close to Norman/OKC be my guest and send them to the range with me when time allows. I will put my money where my mouth is.

Sure, I know plenty of PTR91 owners who are candid and honest. But claims in the HK forum are about as reliable as me posting about how my Dodge Omni can go 200 mph in the forums at Ferrari.com. Perhaps it is because my Dodge is smaller and lighter that enables it to gain such high speeds.

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:21:40 AM EDT

[#2]

Random chance would suggest that if enough monkeys fire enough AKs eventually one of them will get some 1" groups at 500 yards.

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:22:28 AM EDT

[#3]

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:24:33 AM EDT

[#4]

I own a PSG-1, and, 2 real German HK-91's. All of them are marked made in West Germany. I have shot many rounds through these and other HK rifles over the past 20+years. I guarantee that any of my currently owned HK rifles will beat the accuracy of your PTR parts gun SIG 220. Charles the Gunsmith CWO-3 USMC (ret).

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:25:01 AM EDT

[#5]

I know I can hit a 2 x 2 steel plate with my SKS most of the time at 200 yds. Not bad for old scratched up glasses and a cheap Chinese POS.

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:27:23 AM EDT

[#6]

I would be proud of a 5" group at 500 with an AK.

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:36:02 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
I own a PSG-1, and, 2 real German HK-91's. All of them are marked made in West Germany. I have shot many rounds through these and other HK rifles over the past 20+years. I guarantee that any of my currently owned HK rifles will beat the accuracy of your PTR parts gun SIG 220. Charles the Gunsmith CWO-3 USMC (ret).

That's great. That means you got 2 superbly accurate 91's and I'm sure that PSG1 is crazy accurate. The last time I really tested my PTR I was able to get an average of 2.5" 3-shot groups at 200yds with the best being right at 2". That was with a decent rest however because I couldn't do that on my own, and it was not with irons. If you haven't shot a PTR try not to assume I'm lying or exaggerating. The heavy barrel helps about a bit IMO. They come with a horrendous stock trigger though which needs to be worked on to reach its full potential.

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:38:00 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Once again I never said it was better than a real HK. Also HK's are only that high because of the import ban. We both know that. Don't get me wrong I know a PSG1 would still be expensive.

It was hard to tell. You seemed to be suggesting that a PTR91 is more accurate than a HK91 and is capable of 1MOA.

And that is the CURRENT LE price for a PSG1, prebans are about $14,000. The $10,000 price has NOTHING to do with the import ban.

Quoted:
I don't know to many people who claim a Century is as good as the real deal like you mentioned.

Plenty of them in the HK forum.

Quoted:
So you don't think anyone who owns a PTR has a respectable opinion basically. When pretty the majority of those who own one will support my side I have a hard time feeling they are all full of BS. If you know someone close to Norman/OKC be my guest and send them to the range with me when time allows. I will put my money where my mouth is.

Sure, I know plenty of PTR91 owners who are candid and honest. But claims in the HK forum are about as reliable as me posting about how my Dodge Omni can go 200 mph in the forums at Ferrari.com. Perhaps it is because my Dodge is smaller and lighter that enables it to gain such high speeds.

Does the price have anything to do with that HK doesn't make roller lock rifles anymore? Pardon my ignorance if that is incorrect. I am not an HK expert by any means. My experience with HK's is limited to the PSP I used to have, my PTR, and some of my friends rifles and pistols.

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:42:03 AM EDT

[#9]

I make a living by building semi-auto military rifles for select clients. The HK clones are some that I build, including FAL's, AR's, etc. I have built many 'G3' clones from parts sets. Some shoot well. None have ever outshot German HK's. The FAL's are competitive with or better than the Belgian guns. The AR's are awesome in terms of accuracy. Charles the Gunsmith

.

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:44:03 AM EDT

[#10]

What a silly premise--is this a serious thread?

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:45:23 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I would be proud of a 5" group at 500 with an AK.

I would be proud to hit a barn at 500 with an AK.

Posted: 9/21/2005 9:47:39 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I would be proud of a 5" group at 500 with an AK.

I would be proud to hit a barn at 500 with an AK.

I can't hit much past 200yds with an AK. I haven't really had many opurtunities to try it past that though as the range I am a member at currently only goes to 200yds. I think they are extending it soon though

.

Posted: 9/21/2005 10:01:52 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Does the price have anything to do with that HK doesn't make roller lock rifles anymore? Pardon my ignorance if that is incorrect. I am not an HK expert by any means. My experience with HK's is limited to the PSP I used to have, my PTR, and some of my friends rifles and pistols.

No, when the PSG1 was introduced it was over $5,000 and current prices are $10,000 for military and LE who are the only customers who can buy them.

And HK still makes roller locks. Still in production are the PSG1, MSG90, HK53, HK21E and of course the MP5 (which HK has repeatedly announced it will be discontinuing but is still in production).

Posted: 9/21/2005 11:29:28 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
What a silly premise--is this a serious thread?

Good point, BK.

But if you will read the replies, you will note that some people actually do not understand this issue.

I have about decided that there is no question so clearly understood about firearms that you cannot find a few people that are 100% wrong about it.

Simply amazing.

Posted: 9/21/2005 11:35:06 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Yeah, we've all heard such claims and we all know what 99.999% of them are.

But it did get me thinking.

Is is "possible" for a person to be such a good "shooter" that they overcome the inherent limitations of their firearm?

And I'm not just talking about Kentucky Windage and stuff like that.

Can a person be so talented that they can get 1" groups from a rifle that only offers 2-3MOA accuracy?

How about sub MOA groups from a 1MOA rifle?

Seems to me the variable is just to great. If a rifle is 2MOA that means it will place the round ANYWEAR in a 2" circle and that can't be compensated for because the error won't be consistent in distance or location relative to POI.

It's possible to get hypertechnical on this question, and I'm not qualified to do that, but I will give it a shot. Accuracy is different from precision. accuracy is when the round goes where you want it. precision is when it goes there time after time. (MUCH more to it than that, but forgive me for trying to simplify). A shooter can compensate for a lack of accuracy, but not for a lack of precision. Example - a lack of accuracy could make a round go 1 inch left at 100 meters. A shooter might compensate for this by aiming 1 inch to the right. A lack of precision may cause flyers that go all over the page, but no particular spot consistently, and that is something a shooter generally cannot compensate for, except for possibly handloading, accurizing the rifle, etc. hope that helps.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:21:07 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Does the price have anything to do with that HK doesn't make roller lock rifles anymore? Pardon my ignorance if that is incorrect. I am not an HK expert by any means. My experience with HK's is limited to the PSP I used to have, my PTR, and some of my friends rifles and pistols.

No, when the PSG1 was introduced it was over $5,000 and current prices are $10,000 for military and LE who are the only customers who can buy them.

And HK still makes roller locks. Still in production are the PSG1, MSG90, HK53, HK21E and of course the MP5 (which HK has repeatedly announced it will be discontinuing but is still in production).

I forgot about the MP5

. Brain fart. I didn't think they still made MSG's and PSG's. I wish I could get one. Maybe when I finish Dental School I can buy one of the pre-89 imports.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:23:21 PM EDT

[#17]

If you shake the ammo and then allow it to settle before you load it your accuracy will be greatly increaded. Try to put the heavy side of the ammo down when loading.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:33:09 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Can a person be so talented that they can get 1" groups from a rifle that only offers 2-3MOA accuracy?

How about sub MOA groups from a 1MOA rifle?

No. Absolutely not. No fucking way.

A "1 MOA" or "2-3 MOA" rifle indicates the inherent inaccuracy of the weapon (fired from a perfect rest with perfect trigger pull). That systematic imprecision is independent of any action of the shooter.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:40:47 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I make a living by building semi-auto military rifles for select clients. The HK clones are some that I build, including FAL's, AR's, etc. I have built many 'G3' clones from parts sets. Some shoot well. None have ever outshot German HK's. The FAL's are competitive with or better than the Belgian guns. The AR's are awesome in terms of accuracy. Charles the Gunsmith .

Just out of curiosity did you use a non chrome lined heavy barrel for any of those parts sets? I feel that may be why PTR's can do better than 2moa.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:46:54 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Can a person be so talented that they can get 1" groups from a rifle that only offers 2-3MOA accuracy?

How about sub MOA groups from a 1MOA rifle?

No. Absolutely not. No fucking way.

A "1 MOA" or "2-3 MOA" rifle indicates the inherent inaccuracy of the weapon (fired from a perfect rest with perfect trigger pull). That systematic imprecision is independent of any action of the shooter.

It depends what system you have in mind. I think 2-3moa is an innaccurate description if it is referring to what I think it is.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:51:41 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Back to the topic. A rifle may be a sub MOA rifle, but most military ammo is 2+ MOA ammo. Compounding variables make it damned hard to shoot to a rifle's true capability. I occasionally shoot sub MOA groups, but I consider them a fluke. I don't hand load, and I don't use mechanical rests, and I get about what I would expect, around 2 MOA, if I'm careful.

ETA: When I get better shooters to use my rifles, I get better results.

It is worth noting that the group will form as a Gaussian distribution, meaning that a "1 moa" rifle is more likely a 1.5 moa or 2 moa performer . . . it is just that the shooter is going by 5 shot groups, and throwing out "flyers" that are actually representative of the rifle's accuracy.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:52:38 PM EDT

[#22]

My brother can hit a charcoal briquet at 100 yards, 50% of the time, with his akm. I can't hit outside of 5 shots.

The ak is a good rifle in my opinon, and alot of fun to shoot.

It cannot, however, keep the same accuracy as my k31.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:56:58 PM EDT

[#23]

Yes, a Special Weapons firearm is capable of making the shooter more accurate....they are better than those cheaply made HKs also.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:57:58 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Can a person be so talented that they can get 1" groups from a rifle that only offers 2-3MOA accuracy?

How about sub MOA groups from a 1MOA rifle?

No. Absolutely not. No fucking way.

A "1 MOA" or "2-3 MOA" rifle indicates the inherent inaccuracy of the weapon (fired from a perfect rest with perfect trigger pull). That systematic imprecision is independent of any action of the shooter.

It depends what system you have in mind. I think 2-3moa is an innaccurate description if it is referring to what I think it is.

No, it doesn't depend on the system. A "2-3moa" rifle is a rifle that shoots 2-3moa under perfect conditions (shooter, weather, phase of the moon, etc). That's what "2-3 moa rifle" means. If one calls a "1moa rifle" a "2-3moa rifle" because one can't shoot it very well, that's a classification error.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:59:26 PM EDT

[#25]

I used to have a PSS but I sold it because I couldn't feed it the proper diet it deserved. I did run a couple hundred rounds of milsurp through it and it easily did better than 2moa. I know milsurp isn't match grade stuff, but it can perform better than 2moa in the right rifle.

Posted: 9/21/2005 2:59:43 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Can a person be so talented that they can get 1" groups from a rifle that only offers 2-3MOA accuracy?

How about sub MOA groups from a 1MOA rifle?

No. Absolutely not. No fucking way.

A "1 MOA" or "2-3 MOA" rifle indicates the inherent inaccuracy of the weapon (fired from a perfect rest with perfect trigger pull). That systematic imprecision is independent of any action of the shooter.

It depends what system you have in mind. I think 2-3moa is an innaccurate description if it is referring to what I think it is.

What fizassist said is 100% correct.

There is no room for debate.

If you don't understand this, then don't make statements. Just listen and learn.

Posted: 9/21/2005 3:02:32 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Can a person be so talented that they can get 1" groups from a rifle that only offers 2-3MOA accuracy?

How about sub MOA groups from a 1MOA rifle?

No. Absolutely not. No fucking way.

A "1 MOA" or "2-3 MOA" rifle indicates the inherent inaccuracy of the weapon (fired from a perfect rest with perfect trigger pull). That systematic imprecision is independent of any action of the shooter.

It depends what system you have in mind. I think 2-3moa is an innaccurate description if it is referring to what I think it is.

No, it doesn't depend on the system. A "2-3moa" rifle is a rifle that shoots 2-3moa under perfect conditions (shooter, weather, phase of the moon, etc). That's what "2-3 moa rifle" means. If one calls a "1moa rifle" a "2-3moa rifle" because one can't shoot it very well, that's a classification error.

You're misunderstanding me. I know what a 2-3moa rifle is, but I also know why this thread came up. Aug doesn't believe that I can get better than 2moa out of a PTR. I happen to disagree because well it always has. Which means it is not a 2-3moa rifle. This thread started as a result of: http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=391479&page=2�

Posted: 9/21/2005 3:02:43 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Back to the topic. A rifle may be a sub MOA rifle, but most military ammo is 2+ MOA ammo. Compounding variables make it damned hard to shoot to a rifle's true capability. I occasionally shoot sub MOA groups, but I consider them a fluke. I don't hand load, and I don't use mechanical rests, and I get about what I would expect, around 2 MOA, if I'm careful.

ETA: When I get better shooters to use my rifles, I get better results.

It is worth noting that the group will form as a Gaussian distribution, meaning that a "1 moa" rifle is more likely a 1.5 moa or 2 moa performer . . . it is just that the shooter is going by 5 shot groups, and throwing out "flyers" that are actually representative of the rifle's accuracy.

And that's why RMS is the best indication of accuracy. Debate 3-shot, 5-shot, 10-shot groups all day long; they are only sampling the inherent physical width of the distribution. Shoot 1,000 rounds, determine the sigma, and that tells you the confidence level of making a shot of a given precision.

Posted: 9/21/2005 3:05:17 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
I used to have a PSS but I sold it because I couldn't feed it the proper diet it deserved. I did run a couple hundred rounds of milsurp through it and it easily did better than 2moa. I know milsurp isn't match grade stuff, but it can perform better than 2moa in the right rifle.

+1. My 700P does 1.5" @ 100 yds easy with surplus.

Posted: 9/21/2005 3:06:57 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Can a person be so talented that they can get 1" groups from a rifle that only offers 2-3MOA accuracy?

How about sub MOA groups from a 1MOA rifle?

No. Absolutely not. No fucking way.

A "1 MOA" or "2-3 MOA" rifle indicates the inherent inaccuracy of the weapon (fired from a perfect rest with perfect trigger pull). That systematic imprecision is independent of any action of the shooter.

It depends what system you have in mind. I think 2-3moa is an innaccurate description if it is referring to what I think it is.

No, it doesn't depend on the system. A "2-3moa" rifle is a rifle that shoots 2-3moa under perfect conditions (shooter, weather, phase of the moon, etc). That's what "2-3 moa rifle" means. If one calls a "1moa rifle" a "2-3moa rifle" because one can't shoot it very well, that's a classification error.

You're misunderstanding me. I know what a 2-3moa rifle is, but I also know why this thread came up. Aug doesn't believe that I can get better than 2moa out of a PTR. I happen to disagree because well it always has. This thread started as a result of: http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=391479&page=2�

This would be a classification error.

Shoot 100 rounds, determine the RMS ("width"). If it's better than 2moa, you're right.

Posted: 9/21/2005 3:09:40 PM EDT

[#31]

It's completly possible.
Just fire one shot

Sometimes you think too much

Posted: 9/21/2005 3:10:19 PM EDT

[#32]

no

the 7.62x39 round sucks past 100 yrds--even if it could get 1MOA at 100 in the first place, but 1MOA at 500....when NO becomes free of poverty

Posted: 9/21/2005 3:14:35 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Can a person be so talented that they can get 1" groups from a rifle that only offers 2-3MOA accuracy?

How about sub MOA groups from a 1MOA rifle?

No. Absolutely not. No fucking way.

A "1 MOA" or "2-3 MOA" rifle indicates the inherent inaccuracy of the weapon (fired from a perfect rest with perfect trigger pull). That systematic imprecision is independent of any action of the shooter.

It depends what system you have in mind. I think 2-3moa is an innaccurate description if it is referring to what I think it is.

No, it doesn't depend on the system. A "2-3moa" rifle is a rifle that shoots 2-3moa under perfect conditions (shooter, weather, phase of the moon, etc). That's what "2-3 moa rifle" means. If one calls a "1moa rifle" a "2-3moa rifle" because one can't shoot it very well, that's a classification error.

You're misunderstanding me. I know what a 2-3moa rifle is, but I also know why this thread came up. Aug doesn't believe that I can get better than 2moa out of a PTR. I happen to disagree because well it always has. This thread started as a result of: http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=391479&page=2�

This would be a classification error.

Shoot 100 rounds, determine the RMS ("width"). If it's better than 2moa, you're right.

Basically I stated before that I tested my PTR at 200yds with a decent rest. It has a scope and trigger work. The results out of several targets was that it could achieve an average of a 2.5" 3 shot group at this range.

I have put right around 3000rds through it. I can honestly say that when I use the rest my results are easily repeatable. When I use the bipod my groups open up because I'm just an average shot. All in all if it can regularly shoot groups like that at 200yds I will consider it better than 2moa. I am not talking about a fluke. Sure sometimes I shoot a shitty group even when I do use the rest as it doesn't hold everything perfectly still. Everyone does though, but I'm talking about when I do my part.

I'm done now. I'm sick of talking about it. It doesn't even matter.

Posted: 9/21/2005 6:27:44 PM EDT

[#34]

Since no one handloads 7.62X39 there can be no real consistancy in every shot!

And even handloaded most rifles will not shoot exatually the same each shot!!

But if you could handload each round,and the rifle would impact everytime in the same place,then yes you could walk(think artillery)the rifle into Kentucky Windage hall of fame!!!!

Course we all know this doesn't happen,even a change from a little wind to no wind is all it takes to screw things up!! Maybe in a vacume???

HUMMMM isn't that what tracers are for!!!!

NO Bob