Quoted: That's not quite fair considering the 101st wasn't even activated until 1942. It's kinda hard to do something when you don't exist. I compare them from WWII to present. Afterall, the 82nd wasn't an airborne unit in WWI anyway. So comparing them from WWII on seems the best. Both divisions performed remarkably well in WW2, but I'd give the nod to the 101st. Afterall, it was the 101st's commanding general who gave the historic reply "Nuts!". That's gotta count for extra points.   In Vietnam, the 101st was there for years, fighting in some of the most intense battles, such as at Hill 937 in the A Shau Valley. The 82nd only had one brigade in-country for a rather short period of time. So if everything is factored in, I would say the 101st does have a bit more history on their side if you view them both from WWII to present.  That's not to say one is better than the other,  just that the 101st had the more colorful history since their creation.

I agree, but I strongly feel they should lose the Airborne tab.

BTW, we should also include the 173rd Airborne Brigade in this discussion. Though their existence as a unit hasn't been as long, they have been a good unit. I am pretty sure they were in Nam from 1965-1972, placing them at or near the top as far as time in-country. And in relation to their unit size, I would say they lost more men in combat than anyone else there. Even though they were only a brigade size unit, their KIA's damn nearly equalled some division's totals. These were some hard fighting bastards who did some good work around Dak To. They also paid ol' Saddam a surprise visit sneaking into Northern Iraq to open a second front.

So, here's my salute to the "Sky Soldiers" who often get overshadowed in discussions by the 82nd and 101st, but who deserve a great deal of respect and recognition themselves.

Quoted: BTW, we should also include the 173rd Airborne Brigade in this discussion. Though their existence as a unit hasn't been as long, they have been a good unit. I am pretty sure they were in Nam from 1965-1972, placing them at or near the top as far as time in-country. And in relation to their unit size, I would say they lost more men in combat than anyone else there. Even though they were only a brigade size unit, their KIA's damn nearly equalled some division's totals. These were some hard fighting bastards who did some good work around Dak To. They also paid ol' Saddam a surprise visit sneaking into Northern Iraq to open a second front. So, here's my salute to the "Sky Troopers" who often get overshadowed in discussions by the 82nd and 101st, but who deserve a great deal of respect and recognition themselves.

They were deactivated after Nam and just recently reactivated as a separate org.

Quoted: Better at what?  Killing things?  Insertions?  Extractions?  Not losing their colors to the enemy, twice?  Macrame?  Basket making?

Ouch!  I have to ask: which of those lost their colors to the enemy twice?

Quoted: Quoted: Better at what?  Killing things?  Insertions?  Extractions?  Not losing their colors to the enemy, twice?  Macrame?  Basket making? Ouch!  I have to ask: which of those lost their colors to the enemy twice?

Neither. there are many rumors of differing units losing their colors and the only one that is likely true would the the 7th Cav when Custer fudged up big time.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Marines.   I always get a kick when I see marines wearing ARMY jump wings.   Yeah, sometimes we go slumming.

The only jump wings this Marine owns are the ones his uncle wore in W.W.II.  He was a Paramarine (later fought at Iwo Jima with the 5th Marine Division).  It seems that the "Army jump wings" you are talking about were actually used by the Marines BEFORE the Army ever created its jump school!

Semper Fi, Mac!

The 82nd Airborne Division retains the mission of deploying to battle via parachute - i.e., they are paratroopers.

The 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) was an airborne (parachute) division until the 1970s, when it was converted in stages to an air assualt divison during and after the Vietnam war with the mission of deploying to battle on helicopters.  It retains the historical "Airborne" designation (in the 1950s, when it was a training disivison for a short period, it was just the 101st Division and lost the "Airborne" above the shoulder patch).

The 82nd ABN DIV has a longer combat history.  The 82nd saw extensive combat in WWI as the 82nd Infantry Division.  Reactivated in March 1942 and redesignated as a Airborne Division in August 1942.  The 82nd ABN jumped into Sicily for OPERATION HUSKY 9 July 1943.  The 82nd ABN jumped in to the Salerno beachead 13 Sep 1943.  While the rest of the 82nd redeployed to the UK for preperation for OVERLORD, the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment fought at Anzio.  The 82nd ABN, reinforced with the 507th and 508th PIRs, jumped into Normandy for OVERLORD.  The 82nd jumped into Holland (MARKET GARDEN) and fought in the Ardennes although that is often ignored in the focus on the 101st ABN at Bastogne (there was a lot more to the Ardennes fighting than Bastogne).

The 101st Airborne Division was activated for the first time August 19 1942 battle history mirrors the 82nd's from Normandy on (Normandy was their first combat operation).  Their stand at Bastogne is justly famous, but is only part of the Ardennes fighting.

After VE day, the Army decided to deactivate the 101st ABN for reasons that remain a closely held secret, but were based on a request by the Belgian government.  The 82nd ABN Div, along with the Pacific Theater's 11th Airborne Division, remained on active service.

The 101st Division (not "Airborne") was reactivated at Camp Cleburne KY as a training division in 1948, deactivated and reactivated as a training division in 1950.  Deactivated again, it was reactivated in 1954 as a training division at Fort Jackson SC.  In 1956 the colors were transfered (minus personnel) to Fort Campbell KY and it was reorganized as an airborne combat division (this took the approval of the Belgian government).

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Both are outstanding units. They are both equally good at what they do. But since we are picking favorites and since the 101st has a bit more history, I'll have to go with the in-state based 101st. the 101st has more history? What did they do in WWI? Even though the 82nd wasnt airborne in WWI they were still the All Americans. The 101 has Bastogne and the Bulge. Tough to beat.

but the 82nd has New Orleans    

abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=3417405

Quoted: After VE day, the Army decided to deactivate the 101st ABN for reasons that remain a closely held secret, but were based on a request by the Belgian government.

Somebody care to elaborate on this?

Quoted: Quoted: After VE day, the Army decided to deactivate the 101st ABN for reasons that remain a closely held secret, but were based on a request by the Belgian government.   Somebody care to elaborate on this?

Yes, please do!  That caught my eye.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: After VE day, the Army decided to deactivate the 101st ABN for reasons that remain a closely held secret, but were based on a request by the Belgian government.   Somebody care to elaborate on this? Yes, please do!  That caught my eye.

If they told us they would have to kill us.

Quoted: BTW, we should also include the 173rd Airborne Brigade in this discussion. Though their existence as a unit hasn't been as long, they have been a good unit. I am pretty sure they were in Nam from 1965-1972, placing them at or near the top as far as time in-country. And in relation to their unit size, I would say they lost more men in combat than anyone else there. Even though they were only a brigade size unit, their KIA's damn nearly equalled some division's totals. These were some hard fighting bastards who did some good work around Dak To. They also paid ol' Saddam a surprise visit sneaking into Northern Iraq to open a second front. So, here's my salute to the "Sky Troopers" who often get overshadowed in discussions by the 82nd and 101st, but who deserve a great deal of respect and recognition themselves.

The 82 what and the 101 what    The Brigade was not only in continuous Combat in RVN longer than any other unit but was in continuous Combat longer than any Army unit in history and we were the first US Army Infantry unit to RVN .   More MOH's were earned by the Brigade ( 12 ) than either the 82nd or the 101st in WWII. The Brigade's 503d PIR also  goes back to WWII ( Phillipines, Okinawa ) 1700 great men on the Wall.  Sky Soldiers, first in and last out.   Gene-  1st of the 503d

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: After VE day, the Army decided to deactivate the 101st ABN for reasons that remain a closely held secret, but were based on a request by the Belgian government.   Somebody care to elaborate on this? Yes, please do!  That caught my eye.

here us some usefull info

www.ww2-airborne.us/18corps/other_overview.html

PS- The 101st is NOT Airborne anymore..

Quoted: They were deactivated after Nam and just recently reactivated as a separate org.

True.

I served with the 3/187th - 101st Airbone (Air Assault) from 1983 to mid 1986. I was Airborne and Air Assault qualified, along with a host of other schools. I was also stationed at Hunter Army Airfield with the 1st Ranger Battalion prior to being sent to Ft Campbell.

Airborne school was hard. Air Assault school was sort of hard. Ranger school was insane.

Which is better? Both have different missions. BOTH belong to the 18th Airborne Corps - so both are brothers and it really doesn't matter. Both units have a healthy respect for each other and both have very good inter-service rivalry. I gave lots of crap to 82nd guys all the time. But I would defend them with my life.

Duty at Campbell sucked for the most part. My little brother serves with the 82nd right now. He is 17 years younger than I. God bless him. He went for Airborne because of me. Dad was an tanker at Ft Knox.

All I know is, don't ever get stationed at a unit with a history. You get to stand at parade rest listening to it day after day......

ETA: I had senior E-7's and above that were at some of those battles in Vietnam. One was with the 173rd. I felt sometimes that I didn't deserve to be standing among them.

<------

An old infantry soldier died and went to Heaven.  At the pearly gates he was greeted by Saint Peter, "Hey! Glad to see you made it!  You deserved to come to Heaven and we need more "grunts" up here.

The old grunt smiled and was about to step into Heaven when he stopped and said, "Saint Pete, you don't have any "CAV" up here, do you?  They picked on me my whole career, throwing MRE's, beer, and Coke cans at me as they rode by. I hate "CAV"!  

"No way!" said Saint Peter.  "There ain't no "CAV" here.  They stay down at Fiddlers Green."  

So the old grunt stepped into Heaven and immediately saw a gigantic cloud with a gun tube sticking out of it.  The old grunt heard all hell breaking loose - girls laughing and screaming. raucus music playing, and bottles breaking.  "Hey!  That's "CAV"!  You lied to me!"    

"No, no, no", said Saint Peter.  "That's the mechanized infantry."

The old grunt took no more than a few steps when he heard an even louder racket coming from another cloud which had an even bigger gun tube sticking out of it.  "That's "CAV"!, he screamed hysterically.

"Calm down", said Saint Peter.  "That's the field artillery - the guys that used to bail you out when things got rough on the battlefield."  

So the old grunt took another few steps and was immediately confronted by a Kiowa Warrior helicopter screaming around the corner, the gunner hunched over his sights, firing rockets and Hellfire missiles everywhere.  The pilot wore a Stetson, was holding a bottle of Jack Daniels in his left hand and a beautiful blond in his right arm.  Crossed sabres were painted on the side of the chopper.     "CAV! CAV!  That's the CAV!", screamed the old grunt.

"NAW", said Saint Peter, "That's GOD.  He just thinks He's "CAV".

1st Cav is better than both.

Quoted: "Curahee"

Ahem, it's Currahee.

Quoted: Never heard of either one.

Quoted: PS- The 101st is NOT Airborne anymore..

+1

they need to drop the airborne tab.

MHO

Quoted: My dad was an officer in the 101st.  He told me a few tidbits and stories over the years before he passed.  He said that the Wermarcht and SS were both scared shitless of the guys with eagles on their shoulderpatch and mohawks.  They were told that the 101st would scalp and eat prisoners. One nazi with all the hitler youth stuff apparently both pissed and shit himself standing when he realized he was the Prisoner of an American officer with the 101st who happened to be Jewish.

I allready stated that the 101 is not Airborne, they are an Air Assault unit!

If you like helicopters go with the 101.
If you want to jump go 82nd!

The 101 doas not jump,  most are not Airborne Qaulified! They are Air Assault!

But I will say from serving in both units and being duel qaulified that more of the battlefield goas to the 101st. I think you will see that even more in the future!

As a second-generation paratrooper whose first-generation paratrooper Colonel father was a 'made' member of the "Airborne Mafia" I was honored to grow up knowing many of the great Airborne leaders of WWII as family friends rather than "General" and "Colonel".

The reasons for the deactivation of the 101st Airborne Division in 1945 was / is a widely known 'secret' among that fraternity of heroes.  My godfather, the late Colonel Wilbur "Coalbin Willie" Wilson, confirmed it - as did others whose names reads like a list of XVIIIth Airborne Corps commanders in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s.

The 101st Airborne Division's history Rendezvous with Destiny does not address the subject.

To my knowledge it has never appeared in print.  I plan on maintaining that.

Things were not crystal clear in the Ardennes.  Not all Belgians were pro-Alllied.  There was a significant Belgian NAZI movement with the Belgian (Wallon) SS-Untersturmbannführer Léon Degrelle being one of the main proponents of a seperate NAZI Wallon state.  A Belgian Wallon 'foreign volunteer legion' later became an understrength Waffen-SS foreign volunteer division.

So, not all Belgians welcomed the Allies with open arms...  Not all were afraid when the Germans rolled back through the Ardennes...  The Ardennes is a Wallon area.  There was a strong pro-NAZI, Wallonish seperatist movement that provided a significant number of volunteers to the Third Reich whose political power base included the Ardennes.

At the end of the war, the Allies were about to prosecute NAZI war crimes.  Many so-called war crimes actually weren't "war crimes" under the then-current Geneva and Hauge Conventions, as well as the 'laws and customs of war', however the Allies didn't intend to give a single German the benefit of the doubt (for examples, look at how the British handled Jewish guerrillas in Palestine).  In that case, any public knowledge of similar Allied action would screw up prosecution.

This actually happened.  When Waffen-SS commando leader Otto Skorzeny was tried, Wing Commander Tommy Yeo-Thomas, one of the finest British SOE "behind-the-lines" partisan agents, actually testified in Skorzeny's defense.  Yeo-Thomas testified that SOE personnel working with the French Resistance did many of the things Skorzeny was accused of, such as wearing enemy uniform (a legitimate ruse, but you are supposed to change if you come under fire - which might not be practical).

The Belgians, like the French, the Dutch, the Danes, and the Norwegians, had to face the reality that a significant number of their people didn't just collaberate, they served in the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS as volunteers while at the same time building the mythology of "the Resistance" (which existed, but a lot of the post-Liberation "Resistance" members were wannabe's").  Plus they had to disenfranchise their Communist "Resistance" fighters and keep them from going underground against them...  They dealt with the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS volunteers through denial of their existance (Degrelle 'escaped' to Spain) and just accepted everyone's claim of being in "the Resistance" as a way to heal the wounds.

Placed in a European context (deactivation) and the time-period, it makes sense.

Could it be that all those Airborne old war-horses - many of whom served in the 101st - made up the same story.  Could be.

Quoted: But I will say from serving in both units and being duel qaulified that more of the battlefield goas to the 101st. I think you will see that even more in the future!

Dual qual'd don't mean shit if your not getting jump pay. From what I have seen 101 while a majority of them are AAS qual'd they fast rope which is different. Everyone and every unit can fast rope but who jumps? The Eighty Duece. The 82nd also has a shitload of people qual'd for AAS plus to be in the 82nd you have to pass jump school. The 82nd does both the 101st doesn't. Both are good units but the upper hand goes to the 82nd due to there close proximity to some kickass units since Ft.Bragg is the SpecOps mecca which brings along good training tactics. Also the 82nd wears berets that are earned not issued

Different units, different jobs. Being former 82nd I know the answer. The 82nd to me is more an independent/self-reliant unit . Has to go places faster and farther away more quickly than the 101st, and has.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wife is curious about this and so am I, so which unit is better or has done more? If someone hasn't jumped out of a plane, I don't think they are qualified to speak about either one. Does the parachute drop at 6 flags count? Uh, I mean, +1

Both have amazing histories IMO.  I have a great uncle who was ww2, korea, and VN who was in the 101st (retired Col.) , and a friend who is currently in Afghanistan with the 82nd ABN.  Both have my respect!  

The "French Foreign Legion"  

Quoted: Different units, different jobs. Being former 82nd I know the answer. The 82nd to me is more an independent/self-reliant unit . Has to go places faster and farther away more quickly than the 101st, and has.

Yeah.... Ummm - that's why I spent many, many weekends sitting in the company area doing Quick Reaction Force as the "hot" battalion for emergency alerts for the Rapid Deployment Forces for the 18th Airborne Corps while at Campbell. We would switch off with the 82nd for alert duties...

Were you in an Infantry unit? Did you ever have to sign out and provide phone numbers if you went out of the company area, be told not to leave the area past 5 miles? I did and many times. We had C-5's and 141's sitting at the airfield and our rucks were packed and pallets were loaded. Heck, we even had weapons issued the whole time we were sitting for alert. And, we were alerted for Grenada and was sitting at a staging area to back up you boys from the 82nd.

Dropping troops from an aircraft means potential injuries and troops too spread out to be as effective. Better to land and walk off the aircraft as units. Yes, I've jumped out of a loaded 141. I'd rather ride a UH-60 in - even if it crashes.

Quoted: The Marines.

Semper Fi !

ok here is the histories on both have fun.

oh yeah the red part is the BRAC reccomendations.


FT BRAGG 82nd airborne


Fort Bragg

Fort Bragg is located just west of Fayetteville, North Carolina. One of the largest and busiest military complexes in the world, Fort Bragg hosts America's only airborne corps and airborne division, the "Green Berets" of the Special Operations Command, and the Army's largest support command. 82nd Airborne Division soldiers and others make 100,000 parachute jumps each year at Fort Bragg.

By population, Fort Bragg is the largest Army installation in the world, providing a home to almost 10 percent of the Army’s active component forces. Approximately 43,000 military and 8,000 civilian personnel work at Fort Bragg. Every day approximately military and civilian employees in careers ranging from trades and labor to engineers and attorneys provide the services needed to train, sustain, and deploy the combat forces to America's Crisis Response Contingency Corps and Special Operations Forces. Their common daily focus is on training, deploying, mobilizing, and demobilizing America’s strategic response forces and providing first-class services in such areas as retail, recreation, medicine, and education. The Fort provide those services to a customer base of more than 250,000 soldiers, civilians, family members, and retirees.

Fort Bragg occupies an irregularly-shaped parcel of land, covering approximately 160,700 acres (or 251 square miles), that stretches into four counties and Camp Mackall covers an additional three counties. Fort Bragg occupies 161,000 acres , stretching into six counties. Included within this area are Camp MacKall (an auxiliary training complex), 7 major drop zones, 4 impact areas, 82 ranges, 16 live fire maneuver areas, and 2 Army airfields. As we focus on potential force protection threats, we must consider the fact that approximately 75 percent of our acreage includes ranges, deployment and training areas, with the remaining 25 percent dedicated to those areas where people live, work and play. Fort Bragg is a major city, providing approximately 20 million square feet of office buildings, 11 shopping centers, 28 restaurants, 11 miles of railroad lines, a major medical center, 8 schools, 11 churches, 183 recreational facilities, and approximately 5,000 homes housing over 11,000 family members.

The Fort is a significant economic presence in North Carolina, contributing an estimated $4.1 billion annually to local communities. Fort Bragg and Pope Air Force Base generate retail sales of approximately $2 billion for Cumberland County. Military personnel expenditures have proved to be a vital source of economic growth and development for both the city of Fayetteville and Cumberland County. Cumberland County's median income including military is approximately $29,000 annually compared to $22,000 annually, excluding the military.

In 1918, Congress established Camp Bragg, an Army field artillery site named for the Confederate General Braxton Bragg. An aviation landing field named after 1st Lt. Harley H. Pope, whose JN-4 Jenny crashed in the Cape Fear River, was added a year later. After five years, Camp Bragg became a permanent Army post renamed Fort Bragg. Today, Fort Bragg and Pope Air Force Base comprise one of the world's largest military installations.

"Camp Bragg" was established in 1918 when the Army needed to expand its field artillery training facilities in preparation for World War I. They chose this location because it met the major criteria: a climate suitable for year-round training and close proximity to a port and rail transportation. The post came into existence in 1918, when 127,000 acres of desolate sand hills and pine trees were designated as a U.S. Army installation. Named for Confederate General Braxton Bragg, a former artillery officer from North Carolina, the camp became Fort Bragg in 1922, after Congress decided all artillery sites east of the Mississippi River should become permanent posts. The camp was redesignated as Fort Bragg, Sept. 30, 1922.

Fort Bragg's rich "airborne" history and tradition was launched in 1934 with the first military parachute jump, which used artillery observation balloons as platforms. However, it wasn't until two decades later that the post became an airborne training site.

The fort grew slowly, reaching a total of 5,400 soldiers by the summer of 1940. With the threat of World War II and passage of the Selective Service Act, a reception station was built here and Fort Bragg exploded to a population of 67,000 soldiers within a year. In 1942, the first airborne units trained here in preparation for combat. All five World War II airborne divisions the 82nd, 101st, 11th, 13th and 17th, trained in the Fort Bragg-Camp Mackall area. The 82nd Airborne Division was assigned here in 1946, upon its return from Europe. In 1951, XVIII Airborne Corps was reactivated here and Fort Bragg became widely known as the “home of the airborne.”

The Psychological Warfare Center (now U.S. Army Special Operations Command) was established here in 1952 and Fort Bragg became headquarters for special forces soldiers.

More than 200,000 young men underwent basic combat training here during 1966-70. At the peak of the Vietnam War in 1968, Fort Bragg’s military population rose to 57,840. July 1, 1973, Fort Bragg came under the U.S. Army Forces Command headquartered at Fort McPherson, Georgia.

Today, Fort Bragg is the world's largest airborne facility with more than 45,000 military personnel. Widely known as the "home of the airborne," Fort Bragg houses the 82nd Airborne Division, assigned here in 1946 after returning from Europe, and the XVIII Airborne Corps, reactivated here in 1951. The U.S. Army Parachute Team (the Golden Knights) also calls Fort Bragg home.

Fort Bragg is the home of the airborne. For more than half a century, Fort Bragg has had a proud heritage as the Home of the Nation's Finest fighting forces. The XVIII Airborne Corps was originally activated as the II Armored Corps at Camp Polk, LA., Jan 17, 1942. It was redesignated XVIII Corps Oct 9, 1943 at the Presidio of Monterey, California. The Corp's birthday is Aug 25, 1944. The same day the XVIII Airborne Corps assumed command of the 82d and 101st Airborne Divisions.

Today the XVIII Airborne Contingency Corps is the only airborne corps in the defense establishment of the United States and exercises control over the 82d Airborne Division; 101 Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell, KY; 3rd Infantry Division (Mechanized) Fort Stewart, GA; 10th Mountain Division, Fort Drum, NY; 194th Armor Brigade, Fort Knox, KY; 18th Field Artillery; 18th Personnel Group; 108th Air Defense Artillery Brigade, Fort Bliss, TX; 44th Medical Brigade, XVIII Airborne Artillery; 11th Air Defense Artillery Brigade; 1st Corps Support Command; 16th Military Police Brigade; 20th Engineer Brigade; 25th Military Intelligence Brigade; Dragon Brigade; 18th Finance Group; 18th Aviation Brigade and 35th Signal Brigade; 2nd ACR.

The Psychological Warfare Center - now the U.S. Army Special Operations Command - was established here in 1952, and Fort Bragg units include the 1st Corps Support Command, 44th Medical Brigade, XVIII Airborne Corps Artillery, 18th Aviation Brigade, 35th Signal Brigade, and more. Fort Bragg and neighboring Pope Air Force Base form one of the largest military complexes in the world.

Much like a large city, Fort Bragg has its own schools, shopping malls, medical facilities, housing and churches. Almost every type of recreation and athletics is available. Golf courses, pools, lakes, bowling lanes, hunting fields, craft shops and much more are all around you. The Atlantic to the East and the Appalachian Mountains to the West offer a variety in scenery for the traveler. There is plenty to see and do on a short weekend or month's leave in North Carolina. Hunting for dove, quail, deer, and boar is available within 25-100 miles. Good fishing is available within 10-100 miles. Snow skiing - North Carolina Mountains within 275 miles. Point of interest in the area: Blue Ridge Mountains and Pisgh Forest, 275 miles; Lake Tillery, 175 miles; Battleship "North Carolina" in Wilmington, 100 miles; Old Salem in Winston-Salem, 125 miles.
BRAC 2005

In its 2005 BRAC Recommendations, DoD recommended to realign Fort Bragg by relocating the 7th Special Forces Group (SFG) to Eglin AFB, FL, and by activating the 4th Brigade Combat Team (BCT), 82d Airborne Division and relocating European-based forces to Fort Bragg, NC. This recommendation would co-locate Army Special Operation Forces with Air Force Special Operations Forces at Eglin AFB, activate the 4th BCT of the 82nd Airborne Division and relocate Combat Service Support units to Fort Bragg from Europe to support the Army modular force transformation. DoD claimed that this realignment and activation of forces would enhance military value and training capabilities by locating Special Operations Forces (SOF) in locations that best support Joint specialized training needs, and by creating needed space for the additional brigade at Fort Bragg. DoD acknowledged that this recommendation would never pay back. However, it claimed that the benefits of enhancing Joint training opportunities coupled with the positive impact of freeing up needed training space and reducing cost of the new BCT by approximately $54-$148M (with family housing) at Fort Bragg for the Army's Modular Force transformation, would justify the additional costs to the Department.

The total estimated one-time cost to the Department of Defense to implement this recommendation would be $334.8M. The net of all costs and savings to the Department during the implementation period would be a savings of $446.1M. Annual recurring costs to the DoD after implementation would be $23.8M, with no payback expected. The net present value of the costs and savings to the Department over 20 years would be a cost of $639.2M. DoD estimated that this recommendation would not result in any job reductions over the 2006-2011 period. Environmentally, this recommendation might result in operational restrictions to protect cultural or archeological resources at Fort Bragg. Tribal consultations might also be required. Further analysis may be necessary to determine the extent of new noise impacts at Bragg. Increased water demand at Fort Bragg might lead to further controls and restrictions and water infrastructure might need upgrades due to incoming population. An evaluation of operational restrictions for jurisdictional wetlands would likely have to be conducted at Fort Bragg. Added operations might impact threatened and endangered species at Fort Bragg and would result in further operational and training restrictions. This recommendation would require spending approximately $1.0M for environmental compliance costs.

In another recommendation, DoD would realign Yeager Airport AGS, WV, by realigning eight C-130H aircraft to Pope/Fort Bragg to form a 16 aircraft Air Force Reserve/active duty associate unit. DoD also recommended to close Pittsburgh International Airport (IAP) Air Reserve Station (ARS), PA, and relocate 911th Airlift Wing’s (AFRC) eight C-130H aircraft to Pope/Fort Bragg to form a 16 aircraft Air Force Reserve/active duty associate unit. It would also Relocate AFRC operations and maintenance manpower to Pope/Fort Bragg. The C-130 unit would remain as an Army tenant on an expanded Fort Bragg. Careful analysis of mission capability indicated that it would be more appropriate to robust the proposed airlift mission at Fort Bragg to an optimal 16 aircraft C-130 squadron, which would provide greater military value and offers unique opportunities for Jointness. Assuming no economic recovery, this recommendation could result in a maximum potential reduction of 7,840 jobs (4,700 direct jobs and 3,140 indirect jobs) over the 2006-2011 period in the Fayetteville, NC, Metropolitan Statistical economic area (4.0 percent).

DoD also recommended to close General Mitchell Air Reserve Station (ARS). This recommendation would realign the 440th Airlift Wing’s operations, maintenance and Expeditionary Combat Support (ECS) manpower to Fort Bragg.

In another recommendation, DoD would realign Ft Eustis, VA, Ft Jackson, SC, and Ft Lee, VA, by relocating all mobilization processing functions to Ft Bragg, NC, designating it as Joint Pre-Deployment/Mobilization Site Bragg/Pope. This recommendation would realign eight lower threshold mobilization sites to four existing large capacity sites and transforms them into Joint Pre-Deployment/ Mobilization Platforms. This action would be expected to have the long-term effect of creating pre- deployment/mobilization centers of excellence, leverage economies of scale, reduce costs, and improve service to mobilized service members. These joint platforms would not effect any of the services units that a have specific unit personnel/equipment requirements necessitating their mobilization from a specified installation. This recommendation specifically targeted four of the larger capacity mobilization centers located in higher density Reserve Component (RC) personnel areas. These platforms had the added military value of strategic location, Power Projection Platform (PPP) and deployment capabilities. The gaining bases all had an adjoining installation from another service(s), thereby gaining the opportunity to increase partnership and enhance existing joint service facilities and capabilities. These new joint regional predeployment/redeployment mobilization processing sites, Fort Dix, Fort Lewis, Fort Bliss and Fort Bragg had the capability to adequately prepare, train and deploy members from all services while reducing overall mobilization processing site manpower and facilities requirements. Numerous other intangible savings would be expected to result from transformation opportunities by consolidating all services’ mobilization operations and optimizing existing and future personnel requirements. Additional opportunities for savings would also be expecte from the establishment of a single space mobilization site capable of supporting pre-deployment/mobilization operations from centralized facilities and infrastructure.




FORT CAMPBELL

Fort Campbell

Fort Campbell is located between CLARKSVILLE, TN AND HOPKINSVILLE, KY, EXIT 86 OFF I-24. The nearest large city is Nashville, TN, 55 miles and Louisville, KY 190 miles. Fort Campbell supports the 3rd largest military population in the Army and the 7th largest in the Department of Defense. Active duty officers-1,884; active duty enlisted- 20,511; family members-40,491; retirees-112,629; civilian employees-3,921. Army Reserve & National Guard 18,166. At 164 square miles (105,068 Acres), the installation is one of the largest in the world.

Fort Campbell is a city within itself. There are 4,000 homes on the installation, providing housing for officers, enlisted soldiers, and their families. It has seven schools (including a high school), a major hospital, child care facilities, numerous chapels, banks, restaurants, post exchanges, service stations, campgrounds, five swimming pools, and most other facilities a civilian city of that size would have.

Fort Campbell's primary mission is to advance the combat readiness of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) and the non-divisional units posted at the installation through training, mobilization, and deployment.

Deployment capabilities include combat equipped soldiers, tactical vehicles, weapons and ammunition, and logistical equipment to sustain thousands of soldiers in a tactical environment for an extended period of time. The installation serves as a Premier Power Projection Platform for the Division and for major Special Operations Command units.

To fulfill its mission, Fort Campbell maintains 48 live fire ranges, three high impact areas, 51 training areas, five drop zones, 200 artillery firing points, 51 maneuver areas, a special operations training center, and two airfields. Campbell Army Airfield is the Army's largest, spanning 2,500 acres and serving as a secondary landing site for the National Aeronautics & Space Administration and the space shuttle.

Fort Campbell routinely conducts various levels of field training exercises. In FY99, five Brigade Task Force-sized field training exercises were conducted, with each including over 6,000 soldiers and hundreds of vehicles and helicopters. Alert Areas usually are sites where extensive pilot training or other unusual activity occurs. There is one Alert Area -- A-371 -- that encompasses Fort Campbell. This airspace is in continuous use from the surface up to 2,000 feet.

Fort Campbell, home of the Screaming Eagles, of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault). The major command is the 18TH AIRBORNE CORPS & FORSCOM. Fort Campbell is also home to 5th Special Forces Group (ABN), 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (SOAR), 31st Military Police Detachment, 58th Aviation Regiment, 1st Battalion, 61st Engineer Battalion, 95th Maintenance Company, 101st Support Group (Corps), 249th Engineer Battalion, and 902nd Military Intelligence Group. The Air Force has two units at Campbell Army Airfield: 19th Air Support Operation Squadron and 621st Air Mobility Operations Group.

Fort Campbell's newly-constructed Sabalauski Air Assault School conducts sixty classes annually for over 8,000 soldiers. The school teaches rappelling and slingload skills required for Air Assault Operations. The Air Assault School provides training on rappelling to more than 8,000 soldiers each year. The AIR ASSAULT COURSE taught at Fort Campbell's, the SABALAUSKI AIR ASSAULT SCHOOL, has been called the ten toughest days in the Army. The grueling course is designed to train soldiers in all facets of air assault operations unique to the world's only air assault division. The school is also responsible for the rappelmaster course, ropemaster course, and a slingmaster/heavy pick up zone course, basic airborne, refresher course and jump master refresher course. Additionally, the school has the mission of training the Division's prospective ranger students through the newly implemented pre-ranger program. Enrollment for each course is on a quota basis. Prior to arrival the soldiers must meet the height/weight standards of AR 600-9 and have successfully completed the Army Physical Fitness Test for their age group within 30 days of the class starting date and be recommended by the unit.

The mission of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) is to deploy in 18 hours worldwide, to destroy enemy armed forces and to control land area, including populations and resources by employing the unique capabilities of the air assault division. The air assault capabilities and aviation assets greater enhance the divisions world-wide mission. Primary weapon systems are the Air Assault qualified infantry soldier, Apache helicopter, Hellfire Missile System, Mk 19 Grenade Launcher, 105mm Howitzer Avenger.

Fort Campbell, Ky., is named in honor of Brig. Gen. William Bowen Campbell, the last Whig Governor of Tennessee. He was elected Colonel of the First Tennessee Volunteers, the "Bloody First," and is remembered in history as he led his regiment in the storming of Monterey in 1846 with the cry, "Boys, Follow Me!"

The site was selected on July 16, 1941, with construction beginning Feb. 4, 1942. Within a year, the reservation designated as Camp Campbell was developed to accommodate one armored division and various support troops or a total of 23,000 men. Early in the summer of 1942, the post's initial cadre, one officer and 19 enlisted men, arrived from Fort Knox, Ky. From that time until the end of World War II, Camp Campbell was the training ground for the 12th, 14th and 20th Armored divisions, Headquarters IV Armored Corps and the 26th Infantry Division.

In the spring of 1949, the 11th Airborne Division arrived at Campbell following occupation duty in Japan. The 11th was in residence there until early 1956. In April 1950, the post became a permanent installation and was redesignated Fort Campbell.

On Sept. 21, 1956, Secretary of the Army Wilbur M. Bruckner and the Army Chief of Staff, Gen. Maxwell D. Taylor, presented the colors of the 101st Airborne Division to Maj. Gen. T.L. Sherbourne, the first commander of the new ROTAD airborne division. This was the official ceremony reactivating the famed "Screaming Eagles" of World War II.

On May 2, 1966, Third Army General Order 161 directed the activation of a Basic Combat Training Center at Fort Campbell. On July 6, barely two months after its activation, Fort Campbell's Army Training Center received its first 220 newly inducted soldiers. Basic Combat Training began on schedule July 11 with a full complement of 1,100 trainees.

The 1st Brigade was sent for duty in Vietnam in July 1965. After the war escalated, the rest of the division joined the "Always First Brigade." The 6th Infantry Division was reactivated at Fort Campbell on Nov. 24, 1966, and inactivated July 25, 1968.

On Aug. 18, 1969, the U.S. Army Training Center and headquarters, Fort Campbell, was combined. The 173rd Airborne Brigade got its official homecoming ceremonies Sept. 2, 1971, welcomed by Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird. The 1734d was redesignated as the 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (Airmobile). On April 6, 1972, the 101st Airborne Division (Airmobile) was officially welcomed back to its home station in ceremonies attended by Vice President Spiro T. Agnew and Gen. William C. Westmoreland, Army Chief of Staff. On April 15, 1972, the U.S. Army Training Center was inactivated.

Fort Campbell's 105,068-acre installation is located in southwestern Kentucky and north central Tennessee in portions of four counties and two states. It is adjacent to Clarksville, Tennessee, and is approximately seventeen miles south of Hopkinsville, Kentucky. Farm and woodlands account for approximately 50% of surrounding lands. Being located in this particular area makes Fort Campbell unique for the following two reasons.

First, because Fort Campbell exists in two states and has Solid Waste Management Units (SWMUs) in each, its cleanup program must comply with environmental regulations in both states. Though this is a difficult challenge, it is a primary reason for one of Fort Campbell's most successful program management strategies––an Installation Action Plan (IAP) that is developed at an annual workshop attended by all stakeholders, including Restoration Advisory Board (RAB) members, U.S. Forces Command (FORSCOM) representatives, Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) representatives, and Kentucky and Tennessee regulators. Over the last two years, this coordinated IAP has reduced Fort Campbell's cost to complete by $46,565,000.

Second, the area covered by Fort Campbell is a unique geologic region called karst terrain. This terrain is caused by dissolving rock in the subsurface and presents extraordinary challenges in tracking the flow of contaminants in the groundwater. Fort Campbell has instituted several unique strategies for overcoming this problem, including an annual Karst Groundwater Symposium and a Groundwater Characterization Program.

Because of activities conducted at the installation since World War II, Fort Campbell faces petroleum-related contamination in numerous areas throughout the installation. Most of the areas are former vehicle parking and maintenance areas where motor pool/maintenance facilities existed. By 1998, Fort Campbell had identified more than 300 SWMUs to investigate, including one at Campbell Army Airfield. Contamination from the airfield was migrating off post and the Commonwealth of Kentucky became concerned. Fort Campbell immediately began characterizing and remediating this site to address the public's concerns and prevent closure of the airfield. Continuing remedial actions without disrupting the military mission at the airfield has been an ongoing challenge.
BRAC 2005

In its 2005 BRAC Recommendations, DoD recommended relocate the 52nd Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) Group to Fort Campbell. The Unit's former home, Fort Gillem, was recommended for closure by DoD. DoD claimed that the closure of Fort Gillem also would enable the stationing of its tenant units at locations that would increase their ability to associate with like units and promote coordination of efforts. Both the 52nd EOD Group had regional missions in the Southeastern United States. The 52nd EOD Group would be co-located with operational forces at Fort Campbell to provide training opportunities. When moving from Fort Gillem to Fort Campbell, DoD estimated that the following local attributes would be improved: Cost of Living and Population. The following capabilities would not be not as robust: Housing, Education, Employment, Medical, Safety and Transportation. Significant mitigation measures to limit releases to impaired waterways might be required Fort Campbell to reduce impacts to water quality and achieve USEPA Water Quality Standards. Air Conformity determination and New Source Review and permitting effort and consultations with tribes regarding cultural resources would be required at Fort Campbell. This recommendation would have the potential to impact noise and threatened and endangered species or critical habitat at Fort Campbell.

DoD would also realign Fort Campbell, by relocating an attack aviation battalion to Fort Riley, KS. The relocation of an attack aviation battalion from Fort Campbell to Fort Riley would support the formation of a multifunctional aviation brigade at Fort Riley. Assuming no economic recovery, this recommendation could result in a maximum potential reduction of 748 jobs (434 direct and 314 indirect jobs) over the 2006 – 2011 period in the Clarksville, TN-KY Metropolitan Statistical Area, which would be 0.6 percent of economic region of influence employment. When moving activities from Fort Campbell to Fort Riley, DoD estimated that three attributes would improve (Housing, Employment, and Safety) and two (Child Care and Population Center) would not be as robust.

Only 2 things fall from the sky; Bird shit and bad motherfuckers (I was former 82nd, so I'm alittle biased).

Quoted: Quoted: BTW, we should also include the 173rd Airborne Brigade in this discussion. Though their existence as a unit hasn't been as long, they have been a good unit. I am pretty sure they were in Nam from 1965-1972, placing them at or near the top as far as time in-country. And in relation to their unit size, I would say they lost more men in combat than anyone else there. Even though they were only a brigade size unit, their KIA's damn nearly equalled some division's totals. These were some hard fighting bastards who did some good work around Dak To. They also paid ol' Saddam a surprise visit sneaking into Northern Iraq to open a second front. So, here's my salute to the "Sky Troopers" who often get overshadowed in discussions by the 82nd and 101st, but who deserve a great deal of respect and recognition themselves. They were deactivated after Nam and just recently reactivated as a separate org.

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Sky Soldiers ruled in RVN  .Thank you for giving the credit so truly deserved.

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Quoted:
But I will say from serving in both units and being duel qaulified that more of the battlefield goas to the 101st. I think you will see that even more in the future!
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trdvet

Dual qual'd don't mean shit if your not getting jump pay. From what I have seen 101 while a majority of them are AAS qual'd they fast rope which is different. Everyone and every unit can fast rope but who jumps? The Eighty Duece. The 82nd also has a shitload of people qual'd for AAS plus to be in the 82nd you have to pass jump school. The 82nd does both the 101st doesn't. Both are good units but the upper hand goes to the 82nd due to there close proximity to some kickass units since Ft.Bragg is the SpecOps mecca which brings along good training tactics. Also the 82nd wears berets that are earned not issued
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I was in both units, I have done both sides of the coin... 168 jumps & Jumpmaster. The 101 earns their shit to... Savaloski Air Assault School, so they earn what they have too. I dont think they should get the Airborne tab though, but they do deserve recognition. There are people that are assigned to the 82nd that are not Airborne qaulified that still wear a beret as well.

Heard both were pretty good as long as they had some good old U.S. Army Artillery Support.

The King of battle may be the Infantry how ever they may arrive. The Queen of battle is the Artillery as She knows where the King needs his Balls O'fire!

I hope I got that quote right, it's been a long time since I heard it last

Quoted: Quoted: The Marines.   Semper Fi !

You know my answer.

BTW, why does the Navy have Marines on ships?  Sheep would be to obvious.

Quoted: Quoted: Heard both were pretty good as long as they had some good old U.S. Army Artillery Support. The King of battle may be the Infantry how ever they may arrive. The Queen of battle is the Artillery as She knows where the King needs his Balls O'fire! I hope I got that quote right, it's been a long time since I heard it last Backwards. King of battle is Artillery. Infantry is the Queen of Battle.

Thanks it was 20 or more years ago I heard that. So it was the King that knows where the Queen needs his balls!! yeh makes more sense, thanks again

Quoted: The Marines.

+1

Quoted: 1st Cav is better than both.

That goes without sayin' but still...

The 101 and the 82 are still both damn good units even if they do both use towed Artillery.

Now with a pole!!!!

With a pole??


Hit the hole, pole man, hit the hole!!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: US Army S.E.A.L.S I thought SEALS were from the Navy National Guard? I thought they were sponsered by the Discovery channel. 101st has the 82nd beat on battle history, I have known plenty of people from both.  I would say they are pretty equal.  Most of the officers and senior NCOs have served in both.

Listen to the man, he knows of what he speaks.


Of course I voted for the 101st, since that was the unit I served in. However, Sylvan's right in that both units 'share' much of their leadership, as troops regularly move between the two units as they change duty stations. NCOs and officers take a lot of institutional memory with them as they move to different units.

I'd be proud to serve with either unit and wouldn't feel short-changed even if I had to be in the 82nd.

A little more recent combat history for you:

The first shots fired in the air war portion of Operation Desert Storm were fired by Apaches of the 101st.  In fact, the officer who fired that Hellfire, LTC Cole, went on to command the 101st ABN.  His son served as an Apache pilot with the 101st during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan.  Also, the 3rd Bde of the 101st made the longest Air Assault up to that point, when the flew to the Euphrates River.  IIRC, our assualt into the Shahi-Khot Valley might have been a longer distance.

Both are good units, but with different missions.  I will say this, though: It is HIGHLY unlikely you'll ever see another division-sized or larger Airborne drop.  You are infinitely more likely to see division-sized Air Assault missions.  Airborne isn't a dead concept, but it is highly limited in it's effectiveness.  Air Assault, while not infallible, or impossible to defend against, is much more likely to be successful.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Marines.   Semper Fi ! You know my answer. BTW, why does the Navy have Marines on ships?  Sheep would be to obvious.

Same reason they use powdered soap...     takes longer to pick up.

Quoted: A little more recent combat history for you: The first shots fired in the air war portion of Operation Desert Storm were fired by Apaches of the 101st.  In fact, the officer who fired that Hellfire, LTC Cole, went on to command the 101st ABN.  His son served as an Apache pilot with the 101st during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan.  Also, the 3rd Bde of the 101st made the longest Air Assault up to that point, when the flew to the Euphrates River.  IIRC, our assualt into the Shahi-Khot Valley might have been a longer distance. Both are good units, but with different missions.  I will say this, though: It is HIGHLY unlikely you'll ever see another division-sized or larger Airborne drop.  You are infinitely more likely to see division-sized Air Assault missions.  Airborne isn't a dead concept, but it is highly limited in it's effectiveness.  Air Assault, while not infallible, or impossible to defend against, is much more likely to be successful.

They have enough choppers to conduct a full divisonal air assault in one assault?

Not within the Division, no, they do not.  However, one doesn't conduct a divison-sized air assault in one chalk, just like one wouldn't conduct a division-sized airborne assault in one mass jump.  Besides the fact that not all division assets are needed in the air, or forward of the FEBA, in the initial phases of an assault.  There are enough a/c however, to move a great proportion of the four units of action at a time, with the rest of the units being brought into the fight in rapid follow-up lifts.  

That's one of the nice things about air assault, versus airborne.  You don't need a large, semi-flat, semi-improved airstrip to conduct operations.  You can use several, smaller PZ's, located close to each elements' own AO.  There's no need to bring all of the assets together at the one, or two, usable airfields in the region capable of supporting C-130's / C-17's.

One of the biggest drawbacks of air-assault is the rather limited range.  A flight of C-17's can fly around the world, if need be.  UH-60's aren't able to do that.  The nice thing about the range advantage is the fact that you can deploy the 82nd from further distances, if the need arises.  The 101st has to be in theater, with at least a few days to set up FAARPS and staging areas, before they can realistically conduct combat operations.  The 82nd can theoretically get the call while at Bragg, load up the DRB on C-17's and be conducting combat ops within a matter of hours.

Both assets and missions have their advantages and disadvantages.  Both units are capable, well-equipped, and well-trained.  They are both different tools in the same tool box.  It's just my opinion that you are more likely to see large scale air assault missions more frequently than you'll see large scale parachute operations.

Quoted: BTW, why does the Navy have Marines on ships?

Sea going bell hops?

Quoted: Quoted: BTW, why does the Navy have Marines on ships?   Sea going bell hops?

OK, here's the way it works:

If you are in the 82nd, than the 101st are a bunch of candy-assed pukes.

If you are in the 101st, the 82nd is a bunch of wimpy little pussies.


I would imagine the fights between the WW2 guys goes on to this day.

Pole ??? What are these, strip clubs.

Poll is the word you seek.

FWIW: They are both great, different area for each.

Course, the 101st is still a leg outfit... Helos or not.