Is it wrong to expect more from a military officer? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Is it wrong to expect more from a military officer? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 8/21/2005 3:33:51 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
One of my partners found a very drunk Marine Lt last night pissing in the bar parking lot, less then 30' from the front door of the bar. He was standing next to the open door of his SUV, vehicle running. Pretty clear he got sloppy drunk in the bar and was planning to drive home after making the parking lot smell like tijuana.

My partner ticketed him for public urination. He could have taken him to jail on the charge but cut him a break...He could have cited him for drunk in public but cut him a break...He could have handed him over to the MP's but cut him a break...He could have listed his rank and unit addres on the ticket but cut him a break and listed his off base apartment so his Bn XO wouldnt find out.

The Lt was a beligerant little prick and threatened the arresting officer when he realized he was getting a ticket. Thats the kind of off duty conduct I expect from a Lcpl, not an officer of Marines. He was more drunken frat boy than officer & gentleman....

WTF is the USMC comming too when a guy like that is qualified to be a platoon commander?

Out of MP jurisdiction (off post)...

Once he gave you crap, however, a phone call to his chain of command would be warranted (I doubt his company commander or the BN XO would take kindly to what he was doing), but otherwise give him the same penalty (jail, ticket, whatever) you'd give anyone else for drunk & disorderly....

Posted: 8/21/2005 3:34:34 PM EDT

[#2]

I agree the guy shouldbe cut some slack. How much would be up to your partner, only he knew the wholse story at that moment.
I'd like to think he was in a situation where he could be just driven home but if... well, I dont know. No one should be above the law.

Posted: 8/21/2005 3:37:56 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
A few thoughts, having worn the uniform myself; both Navy and Marine, Officer and Enlisted.
I think that is appropriate and common for the civilian authorities to give servicemen a pass on minor issues especialy during time of war.
The Marine's problem was being s-faced in public and becoming belligerant when caught. Had he been polite and courteous to the civilian police officer, I think it would have been OK (although NOT expected) for the LEO to cut him some slack after ascertaining that he could get home safely (cab or buddy). I've even had LEO's drop off a few of my boys drunk at the gate rather than cite them. Even though HE didn't charge them, I had those that were being jerks in town doing the article 15 dance and those that were just drunk but otherwise not a problem just sleep it off.
The moment the Marine became hostile with a civilian authority, they should have simply gone by the book...hell, I'd help 'em drag him off....just for embarassing MY MARINE CORPS!
Officers are human, and do need at times to blow off steam and have some fun....just with a wee bit more disgression. As a young 0-1/0-2, I've been carried out of an OClub or two...that's just part of being in a very dangerous profession.
I'm not sure I'd agree with a DWI charge...he was not in control of the vehicle. Sure it could be argued that he could have had intent to commit a crime, but how many of you would like to be arrested and spend thousands of dollars to defend yourself from someone else's dertemination of your intent (Hey, he owned an AR15 so he must have intended to knock over the local bank)
It could also be argued that his intent was to have his buddy drive him home. I can see a defense that his buddy started the car to warm up then went back in to get his wallet, some chick's phone number, etc.
Now urinating in a parking lot......not the end of the world, but would earn him a rather unpleasant time in front of my desk.
Another pet peeve of mine...if you've never worn the uniform (STGAR), please try not to tell us what is appropriate behavior for an officer or a Marine, or whatever. You can say that you thought the behavior was rude, boorish, etc. but please don't talk about something being "unbecoming" as you, yourself have never become...you tracking?
With that said, I think that the public urination and belligerance to a civilian LEO were unbecoming and an embaressment and I'd tear him a new one!

Well put. as an O-3, i'd say i agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment.
Matt

Posted: 8/21/2005 3:47:28 PM EDT

[#4]

I think you guys did OK, but I would have called his CO or first shirt in the middle of the night to let them know what was going on.

DUI probably wouldn't stick, no matter what the morons here say about you not doing your job, and while threatening your partner was most definitely conduct unbecoming, I would have let his chain deal with it once he got back on base.

Posted: 8/21/2005 3:49:20 PM EDT

[#5]

Call him a cab. He hadn;t commited a crime yet.

Posted: 8/21/2005 3:52:24 PM EDT

[#6]

I have no problems with the way your partner handled the situation.
An alcohol related incident could have ended the career of that LT.
At the least he should apologize to your partner.

As an Aircrewman I was partied with a lot of the officers, and being in a squadron that was not in a typical military situation and enviroment I have helped to bail out my fair share of junior and (once or twice) senior officers from drunken situations. Of course I also helped out my fair share of junior and senior enlisted people too.

Nothing beats the time I pulled Lt. Commander three-sheet-to-the-winds and Master Chief pig-slopping-knee-walking-drunk out of a bar when they were arguing with both the bouncers and the San Diego police because they both thought that they were sober enough to keep drinking.

As I was dragging them out of the bar the XO and the PXO both came in the bar.
All they said to me was "Carrry On Petty Officer ka3b".

Posted: 8/21/2005 3:53:07 PM EDT

[#7]

You could have arrested him for drunk driving easily.

Posted: 8/21/2005 3:55:54 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
You could have arrested him for drunk driving easily.

How? Because the keys were in the ignition? Yes, that technically makes him "in control" of the vehicle, but he'll beat it in court, especially in Kali.

Posted: 8/21/2005 3:56:31 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
A few thoughts, having worn the uniform myself; both Navy and Marine, Officer and Enlisted.
I think that is appropriate and common for the civilian authorities to give servicemen a pass on minor issues especialy during time of war.
The Marine's problem was being s-faced in public and becoming belligerant when caught. Had he been polite and courteous to the civilian police officer, I think it would have been OK (although NOT expected) for the LEO to cut him some slack after ascertaining that he could get home safely (cab or buddy). I've even had LEO's drop off a few of my boys drunk at the gate rather than cite them. Even though HE didn't charge them, I had those that were being jerks in town doing the article 15 dance and those that were just drunk but otherwise not a problem just sleep it off.
The moment the Marine became hostile with a civilian authority, they should have simply gone by the book...hell, I'd help 'em drag him off....just for embarassing MY MARINE CORPS!
Officers are human, and do need at times to blow off steam and have some fun....just with a wee bit more disgression. As a young 0-1/0-2, I've been carried out of an OClub or two...that's just part of being in a very dangerous profession.
I'm not sure I'd agree with a DWI charge...he was not in control of the vehicle. Sure it could be argued that he could have had intent to commit a crime, but how many of you would like to be arrested and spend thousands of dollars to defend yourself from someone else's dertemination of your intent (Hey, he owned an AR15 so he must have intended to knock over the local bank)
It could also be argued that his intent was to have his buddy drive him home. I can see a defense that his buddy started the car to warm up then went back in to get his wallet, some chick's phone number, etc.
Now urinating in a parking lot......not the end of the world, but would earn him a rather unpleasant time in front of my desk.
Another pet peeve of mine...if you've never worn the uniform (STGAR), please try not to tell us what is appropriate behavior for an officer or a Marine, or whatever. You can say that you thought the behavior was rude, boorish, etc. but please don't talk about something being "unbecoming" as you, yourself have never become...you tracking?
With that said, I think that the public urination and belligerance to a civilian LEO were unbecoming and an embaressment and I'd tear him a new one!

Well put. as an O-3, i'd say i agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment.
Matt

Of course now that I'm an 0-4, looking at 0-5, I'm more interested in getting in early to sleep those rare days that I can...my partying days are looonnngg over! LOL!

Posted: 8/21/2005 3:59:26 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
You could have arrested him for drunk driving easily.

How? Because the keys were in the ignition? Yes, that technically makes him "in control" of the vehicle, but he'll beat it in court, especially in Kali.

He may and he may not. All I am saying is that he could have been arrested for it and it could have stuck. People get arrested for DUI/DWI all the time for being drunk in their car and listening to the radio or sleeping or whatever. Not that I agree with it or not is not the question. I was just making a comment.

Posted: 8/21/2005 4:02:18 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You could have arrested him for drunk driving easily.

How? Because the keys were in the ignition? Yes, that technically makes him "in control" of the vehicle, but he'll beat it in court, especially in Kali.

He may and he may not. All I am saying is that he could have been arrested for it and it could have stuck. People get arrested for DUI/DWI all the time for being drunk in their car and listening to the radio or sleeping or whatever. Not that I agree with it or not is not the question. I was just making a comment.

Very true. I still just think waking up his XO at 0200 to tell him that one of his charges was about to take a ride would have been much more in line.

You are correct, there was definitely enough to book him for the night if the truck was running.

Posted: 8/21/2005 4:04:37 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
That's going to depend alot on the jurisdiction and DA's office. If he's not in control of a vehicle at the immediate momen the cop sees him alot of DA's office won't take DWI charges. Hell it's sometimes hard to get DWI charges here on people that are passed out drunk in a car in a parking lot with it running.

Thank you for the correction.

I believe it is that way in my area, which I may also be wrong on.......

SGatr15

Posted: 8/21/2005 4:22:59 PM EDT

[#13]

If that guy were to have killed somebody on his way home drunk then that would be a tragedy for whoever he killed and himself. There needs to be some kind of accountability somewhere that can help stop this kind of thing. Whether that be a alcohol sensor in new cars or requiring bars to change thier practices. I dont know the answer, but enough innocent people have died already from drunk driving.

Posted: 8/21/2005 4:23:38 PM EDT

[#14]

I think your partner handled it well.

Knowing the Lt. just got home from a combat deployment I would have done pretty much the same thing.

I despise drunk drivers, and had it been anyone else I would have hauled his drunk ass to jail. The Lt. got off lucky and should be grateful.

I don't give a damn who or what you are though, his behavior was unacceptable.

Posted: 8/21/2005 4:27:18 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
I think you guys did OK, but I would have called his CO or ~~first shirt~~ in the middle of the night to let them know what was going on.

Sorry, you don't call senior enlisted with an officer discipline problem. First of all, the senior enlisted have enough to worry about with the junior enlisted. Secondly, it is a matter for his XO to deal with. IMO, when possible disciplinary action should stay within the enlisted or officer community. His XO should come down on him like a ton of bricks.

Posted: 8/21/2005 4:30:13 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Thats the kind of off duty conduct I expect from a Lcpl, not an officer of Marines. He was more drunken frat boy than officer & gentleman....

A piece of paper from Congress does not an Officer and Gentleman make

Posted: 8/21/2005 4:30:14 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
That's going to depend alot on the jurisdiction and DA's office. If he's not in control of a vehicle at the immediate momen the cop sees him alot of DA's office won't take DWI charges. Hell it's sometimes hard to get DWI charges here on people that are passed out drunk in a car in a parking lot with it running.

Thank you for the correction.

I believe it is that way in my area, which I may also be wrong on.......

SGatr15

Since you didn't take the hint from NavyDoc...you need to STFU, CIVILIANar15. You're out of your lane, as usual. If someone needs assistance with proper etiquette when bagging groceries, then you can talk.

Posted: 8/21/2005 4:32:30 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's going to depend alot on the jurisdiction and DA's office. If he's not in control of a vehicle at the immediate momen the cop sees him alot of DA's office won't take DWI charges. Hell it's sometimes hard to get DWI charges here on people that are passed out drunk in a car in a parking lot with it running.

Thank you for the correction.

I believe it is that way in my area, which I may also be wrong on.......

SGatr15

Since you didn't take the hint from NavyDoc...you need to STFU, CIVILIANar15. You're out of your lane, as usual. If someone needs assistance with proper etiquette when bagging groceries, then you can talk.

Posted: 8/21/2005 6:55:02 PM EDT

[#19]

What's the end of the story? Do we know what happened to our wayward LT?

Posted: 8/21/2005 6:58:55 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I think you guys did OK, but I would have called his CO or ~~first shirt~~ in the middle of the night to let them know what was going on.

Sorry, you don't call senior enlisted with an officer discipline problem. First of all, the senior enlisted have enough to worry about with the junior enlisted. Secondly, it is a matter for his XO to deal with. IMO, when possible disciplinary action should stay within the enlisted or officer community. His XO should come down on him like a ton of bricks.

You are correct. For some reason I had the mindset at that moment of thinking of him as an enlisted man.

Chalk it up to not thinking.

Posted: 8/21/2005 6:59:17 PM EDT

[#21]

Drunk and stupid is OK(not good, but understandable), belligerent to cops doing their duty is unacceptable. He wants to be Billy Badass, fuck him.
Should have cuffed, stuffed, and called the SPs

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:04:55 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Call him a cab. He hadn;t commited a crime yet.

Drunk in public
Urination in public
Indecent exposure

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:07:05 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
You could have arrested him for drunk driving easily.

How? Because the keys were in the ignition? Yes, that technically makes him "in control" of the vehicle, but he'll beat it in court, especially in Kali.

Our DA would be very reluctant to file DUI in such an instance. In fact the legal source book recomends "arresting" for drunk in public rather than DUI in such instances.

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:10:00 PM EDT

[#24]

I thought "doing your job" involved keeping everyone safe, not writing the harshest ticket you can? Helping the person find a safe ride home is the best option for ANYONE. Or have I been teleported to some communist country that insists everyone is a criminal and should be condemmed? I hope the ones that do think like this don't question why they get labeled as JBT's.

What was done was probably the best action. Did the "arresting officer" find the other Lt. to do the driving or was he going to drive him anyway?

*line about intent removed because NavyDoc1 said it better, as usual*

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:11:43 PM EDT

[#25]

...

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:16:55 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
One of my partners found a very drunk Marine Lt last night pissing in the bar parking lot, less then 30' from the front door of the bar. He was standing next to the open door of his SUV, vehicle running. Pretty clear he got sloppy drunk in the bar and was planning to drive home after making the parking lot smell like tijuana.

My partner ticketed him for public urination. He could have taken him to jail on the charge but cut him a break...He could have cited him for drunk in public but cut him a break...He could have handed him over to the MP's but cut him a break...He could have listed his rank and unit addres on the ticket but cut him a break and listed his off base apartment so his Bn XO wouldnt find out.

The Lt was a beligerant little prick and threatened the arresting officer when he realized he was getting a ticket. Thats the kind of off duty conduct I expect from a Lcpl, not an officer of Marines. He was more drunken frat boy than officer & gentleman....

WTF is the USMC comming too when a guy like that is qualified to be a platoon commander?
Hey, piss off. That kind of shit isn't acceptable from an E-3, either.

Should have waited for the drunk to get behind the wheel of his vehicle then zapped him for DUI and public urination.

YOU two failed to do your job, and you have the balls to whinge about what the Marine Officer was doing.

The Law is the Law - apply it EQUALLY or Not At All.

+1

The E-3 will almost always have more TOS and is a better representative of Corps value. Your butter bar was most likely a college party boy a few months prior to getting commissioned.

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:17:53 PM EDT

[#27]

Sound like someone needed an ass kicking.

LT was out of line. Being in the military is not a free pass to be an ass.

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:23:35 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Did the "arresting officer" find the other Lt. to do the driving or was he going to drive him anyway?

When the drunk started acting beligerrant several Marines came out to investigate then called the sober Lt on a cell phone. The sober Lt volunteered to drive the drunk home, but the drunk argued he was not going to leave his vehicle in the parking lot overnight. (Why woud he want to with the drunks pissing there and such?) So the sober Lt drove the drunk Lt home, in the drunks car, leaving his own vehicle behind.

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:28:10 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Did the "arresting officer" find the other Lt. to do the driving or was he going to drive him anyway?

When the drunk started acting beligerrant several Marines came out to investigate then called the sober Lt on a cell phone. The sober Lt volunteered to drive the drunk home, but the drunk argued he was not going to leave his vehicle in the parking lot overnight. (Why woud he want to with the drunks pissing there and such?) So the sober Lt drove the drunk Lt home, in the drunks car, leaving his own vehicle behind.

That's a buddy (sober guy) and that's a jerk (drunk guy). I think that the civilian LEO's did a nice thing...cut the guy a break and made sure he got home safe, however, seems to me tha tthe Lt. didn't deserve such nice treatment.
Please allow me to apologise for the behavior of one of my own...

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:31:20 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

When the drunk started acting beligerrant several Marines came out to investigate then called the sober Lt on a cell phone. The sober Lt volunteered to drive the drunk home, but the drunk argued he was not going to leave his vehicle in the parking lot overnight. (Why woud he want to with the drunks pissing there and such?) So the sober Lt drove the drunk Lt home, in the drunks car, leaving his own vehicle behind.

This "^" should have happened long before any civilian LEO's were involved. I do my heavy drinking on base, but when offbase I would expect my fellow officers to watch my back as I watch thiers.

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:37:44 PM EDT

[#31]

He is a Lt in the Marines. As such he is supposed to be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. I voted call his XO, but I think you should have at that point asked his XO if he wanted a ticket on his ass or a cab ride to the XO. By letting him go you held him to a standard that is lower then the general populus, not higher then all the other branches of the Military (I am a Marine I have a right to think that part).

Good for him, he got to be in Iraq, I would give just about anything to be able to be there with my brothers in arms.

Posted: 8/21/2005 7:39:43 PM EDT

[#32]

Agreed...poor teamwork on the part of the Marines around him....OTOH, if the kid (anything below 0-3 is a kid to me!

) was such an obnoxious person, perhaps he didn't HAVE any buddies to watch his six.
Perhaps he said that he was just going outside for a some, in which case the other Marines didn't think the police would get involved.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Is it wrong to expect more from a military officer? (Page 2 of 2)

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