WTF!  i feel violated.

IREALLY am amazed.

I don't know what else to say. I would like to see this happen in West Virginia. There wouldn't be so many ATF agents to worry about anymore. I would pay money to hear my neighbor's response to something like this. He's a pretty funny guy, and he would probably have to push a few guns out of the way to open his front door.
This is an attack on our 2nd ammendent.BATF is the enemy.

Quoted: IREALLY am amazed. I don't know what else to say. I would like to see this happen in West Virginia. There wouldn't be so many ATF agents to worry about anymore. I would pay money to hear my neighbor's response to something like this. He's a pretty funny guy, and he would probably have to push a few guns out of the way to open his front door. This is an attack on our 2nd ammendent.BATF is the enemy.

[Ideal neighbor]

You mean ol' Jimmy is out buying a gun at that thar gun show? Darn! If I'da known he needed another gun I'da sold 'im one of them Uzis I got buried in the back yard...

[/Ideal neighbor]

Here is my letter:

The Honorable Senator George Allen
SR-204
Washington, DC 20510-4604

RE: Recent Reported BATFE Abuses in Richmond


August 18, 2005

Dear Senator Allen:

I am writing to inform you that the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) has alerted its members of recent abuses by The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) at Showmasters Gun show in Richmond the weekend of Aug 12, 2005. Calls made to BATFE, Richmond State Police, and officials at Showmasters, as well first hand reports by VCDL members present at the event, confirm that the actions took place.

As an American and a Virginian, I am deeply alarmed by the events that took place and I would appreciate if your office would call upon BATFE to explain the actions that transpired and, if appropriate, be held accountable for what may appear to be violations of professional practice and perhaps law, i.e. harassment and the conduct of surveys by Government officers and officials which result in the release of non-public, private information related to private firearm purchases.

The VCDL member alert is presented here detailing some of the specific actions and abuses that took place:

=================================

VCDL Alert Aug 18, 2005:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE), who
seem to go out of their way to alienate gun owners with their
heavy-handedness, behaved in a shameful manner this last weekend at
the Showmasters' gun show in Richmond.

I had reports from members of police going to their houses while the
member was waiting for their approval to purchase a gun at the show!
The police asked the spouse and other family members questions about
the purchases and filled in a survey! "Did you know your husband was

going to a gun show today?" "Did you know your husband was going to
buy a gun today?" and many other such questions.

If no one was home at the gun purchaser's house, the police went to
the neighbors! "Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun
today? How do you feel about him doing so?"

One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached
by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out. The officer
said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a
business license to sell a gun at this show? I have seen you at a
lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you
are." That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation. In the
end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up
empty.

They had over 17 BATFE agents at that show. Richmond and Henrico had
a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing
a handgun to ask questions.

I guess Mayor Wilder is flush with cash all of a sudden. Too bad he
didn't use that money to put all those cops into the rougher
neighborhoods of Richmond, instead of harassing the decent citizens
who buy guns at a gun show.

And, if you are sitting down, the main BATFE agent at the show told
Showmasters' management that Richmond was going to be the model for
this kind of behavior across the nation!!!

BUT, THERE IS GOOD NEWS.

Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with
Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters,
went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on
Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000
this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.)

Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no
longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a
firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened.

We will be watching carefully to see if BATFE keeps its word or not.
Report any such abuse immediately to VCDL, along with the officer's
name, badge number, and department.”

==========================

Senator Allen, as always, my family appreciates your consistent support of the 2nd Amendment and thanks you greatly for your excellent service to our great Commonwealth and Nation.


Best Regards,

Here is the story from the guy who was "questioned" about selling his personal firearm:

www.americanminuteman.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4289


And if you want to know what the ATF is always up too, a picture is worth a thousand words...


ATF agent



Iraq jihadists...notice the resemblence?




The both make the world a worse place.

And if you don't believe me look at their work...



http://www.getwaco.com/making-waco.html

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would be tempted to call BS on this, but if the reports are coming from multiple VCDL members, then it's real. Stranger things have happened, but I find this very hard to believe. Believe it. It happened. VCDL DOES NOT lie about this kind of thing. Other state gun organizations could learn a thing or two about grassroots gun-rights lobbying from the VCDL. BIG +1

In the past, VCDL has spanked the City of Richmond, City of Falls Church, and Fairfax County and has been a proven and great fighter of for 2nd ammd civil rights here in VA.

They're most notable accomplishment recently is causing the Fairfax County and Richmond PDs to undertake firearms laws training... specifcally with respect to laws that relate to our right to open carry.

Quoted: OK folks, lets look at this.   For this to happen, a BATFE agent would have to get the 4473 of a person buying a gun, get the buyers home address, then call the police department dispatcher to send a car to the address.  I am sure the PD there has such a low call volume that they can send cops to do that. img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/txinvestigator/Jokes/bsmeter.gif And what of all those buyers from the many suburbs of Richmond?  Did all of those PD's coperate?  Imagine a PD wasting resources to conduct a "survey" of such.

...you have NO IDEA of who you speak of. Phillip Van Cleave of the VCDL is an honorable man and  a man that does not make this stuff up without backing it up. Please keep your ignorant oppinons to yourself.

Quoted: It's been about 2 hours since I read that email, still can't really fathom just what the fuck they were doing. Just who do these asshats think they are?...

A reincarnation of Henry Ford?  

::slow burn::

This has got to stop...

Quoted: The story is skewed,  VA has a state background check, so it's the state sending out the PoPos as part of the background check, this is not ATFs doing.

I am not aware of any separate state background check.  I do know that buyers of handguns (maybe long guns too) must fill out a Virginia form along with the 4473 (it is almost identical to the 4473) that goes to the Virginia State Police, so that might be where the police got the info.

VCDL is a very levelheaded organization that strives to avoid tinfoil, so if several members reported this and Phil VanCleave is distroing it, it's ground truth.

Quoted: Quoted: I could see some local intiative on this sort of thing given the wrong political climate   YOu just described Richmond to a T. Sad thing is that city has so much potential.  Nice area and all.  Just run by asshats.

It's run by the people who vote the asshats into office. Or don't vote.

The cops, "were just obeying orders"........."doing their jobs"....


Are the morons out there starting to get it???

No "war on terror".

It's ALWAYS been US, (the people), who are the "enemy".


I wonder what the republican shills think of the Bush justice dept now???

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would be tempted to call BS on this, but if the reports are coming from multiple VCDL members, then it's real. Stranger things have happened, but I find this very hard to believe. Believe it. It happened. VCDL DOES NOT lie about this kind of thing. Other state gun organizations could learn a thing or two about grassroots gun-rights lobbying from the VCDL.

I have worked with VCDL members in the past.

Solid as a rock.

taggage

Quoted: The story is skewed,  VA has a state background check, so it's the state sending out the PoPos as part of the background check, this is not ATFs doing.  If the ATF is involved in anything it's at the request of local PoPos. The ATF does not just show up at gun shows. That would constitue the compliance inspection for the year for every gun dealer at the show.  The ATF enforcement branch does set up stings, etc. usually only targeting dealers/people they are already suspect of.  If as a dealer you are in the top percantage of crime gun traces being run, you are gonna be watched.  We have lost 3 gun show dealers here in NE in the last year due to ATF targeted strings.  For years we have all watched and said amongst ourselves. How the frick are they getting away with selling guns like they. Well it did not last forever. Someone rats them out.

I have only bought a "few" guns in VA but I can guarantee you a few things:
1.  The uniformed police have never asked around in the neighborhood about me WHILE I WAS BUYING a weapon or afterwards.  
2.  The background check is INSTANT.  I have not yet had a background check take more than 5 minutes.

It is not state procedure to dispatch officers to do the background check face to face with neighbors.  The only background checks I know of that do that are high level security clearances (TS, TS/SCI).  The background check is a very quick database search which ends with a dealer being given an approval number to put on the state form (which is a near copy of the 4473).  Even if it is delayed the work is done on the computer.  If it is delayed more than 72 hours without a negative response the dealer can legally sell the weapon (or could 10 years ago).

The story may be skewed or inaccurate, but not in the way you paint it.

Shooter

ETA:  And I would LOVE it if the ATF questioned me at a gun show so I could say, "I will happily converse with you in 25-30 minutes when my attorney arrives" and then I would STFU.

Quoted: Quoted: The story is skewed,  VA has a state background check, so it's the state sending out the PoPos as part of the background check, this is not ATFs doing. I am not aware of any separate state background check.  I do know that buyers of handguns (maybe long guns too) must fill out a Virginia form along with the 4473 (it is almost identical to the 4473) that goes to the Virginia State Police, so that might be where the police got the info. VCDL is a very levelheaded organization that strives to avoid tinfoil, so if several members reported this and Phil VanCleave is distroing it, it's ground truth.

The State of Virginia is the POC (point of contact) for NICS background checks. This generally means that the POC is performing a state initiated background check as well as the FBI NICS system.

Quoted: 2.  The background check is INSTANT.  I have not yet had a background check take more than 5 minutes. .

come with me next time I buy a gun...if I'm out of there in under an HOUR, I'll buy you dinner.  

Usually, the "instant" check takes at least a 1/2 hour for me, but it's taken over an hour on several occasions, like one time at Walmart.  Buying a frigging 10/22 to 3 hours...and it was a hellish 3 hours at that.  

At least 30 minutes of this episode was waiting for the dumbass who seemed incapable of matching the type of gun listed on the forms to an honest to Krishna actual firearm in a box.  (I'm using the diety of the gentleman in question).  He dragged out at least 5 other rifles before he *finally* got it right.  

Now I know why they don't allow you to buy ammo at the same time...I was ready for The Spree® about halfway into the whole deal.  

Quoted: I could see some local intiative on this sort of thing given the wrong political climate, but I should think the BATFE folks would have far better things to do.

Yep. Like shutting down the Somali jihadis infesting the Richmond area. Or using the Patriot Act to toss every mosque within 30mi of D.C. - Falls Church, Arlington, swarming with jihadists in all their 'Political Action Groups' and madrassas masquerading as Private Schools.


The head of the the BATF&E office in charge of this fiasco needs to be removed from his job. He's obviously got no fucking clue what the limits are on his Authority. Fire his ass.

I called the ATF office out there to ask about it.  I said, "It must be untrue as the ATF is certainly not stupid enough to pull a ridiculous stunt like that".  The ATF agent on the other end of the phone responded "We did what we did as a method to combat crime."  What fucktards.

Quoted: The cops, "were just obeying orders"........."doing their jobs".... Are the morons out there starting to get it??? No "war on terror". It's ALWAYS been US, (the people), who are the "enemy". I wonder what the republican shills think of the Bush justice dept now???

You'd prefer the Gore or Kerry justice dept. perhaps?

Bush is far from ideal but he's a damned sight better than what we could have gotten.

The hogs are hungry.  

Only one picture applies to this thread.

Quoted: Only one picture applies to this thread. img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/alizinat/reddawn_form_4473.jpg

Chilling....

Quoted: Quoted: Only one picture applies to this thread. img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/alizinat/reddawn_form_4473.jpg Chilling....

+1

Quoted: As reported by Phillip Van Cleave of the VCDL: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE), who seem to go out of their way to alienate gun owners with their heavy-handedness, behaved in a shameful manner this last weekend at the Showmasters' gun show in Richmond. I had reports from members of police going to their houses while the member was waiting for their approval to purchase a gun at the show! The police asked the spouse and other family members questions about the purchases and filled in a survey!  "Did you know your husband was going to a gun show today?" "Did you know your husband was going to buy a gun today?" and many other such questions. If no one was home at the gun purchaser's house, the police went to the neighbors!  "Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun today?  How do you feel about him doing so?" One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out.  The officer said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a business license to sell a gun at this show?  I have seen you at a lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns?  I think you are."  That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation.  In the end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up empty. They had over 17 BATFE agents at that show.  Richmond and Henrico had a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing a handgun to ask questions. I guess Mayor Wilder is flush with cash all of a sudden.  Too bad he didn't use that money to put all those cops into the rougher neighborhoods of Richmond, instead of harassing the decent citizens who buy guns at a gun show. And, if you are sitting down, the main BATFE agent at the show told Showmasters' management that Richmond was going to be the model for this kind of behavior across the nation!!! BUT, THERE IS GOOD NEWS. Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters, went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on Monday.  (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000 this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.) Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened. We will be watching carefully to see if BATFE keeps its word or not. Report any such abuse immediately to VCDL, along with the officer's name, badge number, and department. --------- The BATFE sending people to "survey" the home of people buying guns is UNACCEPTABLE. Nowhere in the law are they permitted to do such a thing. One has to wonder why such a thing happened in the first place if the BATFE said it shouldn't have. Makes one wonder exactly what they are teaching the people who are becoming BATFE agents about guns, doesn't it?

\

Do you have a link to this story so i can repost it else where?
Thanks

Quoted: Quoted: Only one picture applies to this thread. img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/alizinat/reddawn_form_4473.jpg Chilling....

And we'll gladly go along, spanking our monkeys until the govt shows up to confiscate the firearms. Then we'll gladly hand them over while being grin-fucked by the officers at the door.

I'm convinced less than 1% of the people who visit this site bother to write their representatives. Probably less than 25% even voted in the last election.

It makes me want to move to a shack in Montana and write seditionist literature.

Quoted: Quoted: The cops, "were just obeying orders"........."doing their jobs".... Are the morons out there starting to get it??? No "war on terror". It's ALWAYS been US, (the people), who are the "enemy". I wonder what the republican shills think of the Bush justice dept now??? You'd prefer the Gore or Kerry justice dept. perhaps? Bush is far from ideal but he's a damned sight better than what we could have gotten.

You are wrong.

Bush is NOT "better".

He's just "different".

Both men would implement the SAME internationalist agenda!!


Tweedely-dee???  Tweedely-dum???


Some choice, eh???        

The "lessor of two evils", is STILL evil!!              

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Only one picture applies to this thread. img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/alizinat/reddawn_form_4473.jpg Chilling.... And we'll gladly go along, spanking our monkeys until the govt shows up to confiscate the firearms. Then we'll gladly hand them over while being grin-fucked by the officers at the door. I'm convinced less than 1% of the people who visit this site bother to write their representatives. Probably less than 25% even voted in the last election. It makes me want to move to a shack in Montana and write seditionist literature.

Speak for yourself.  I wrote my Senators and congressman today, plus the RNC, saying I'd never vote republican again if they didn't get off their asses and close the border.  And yes, I showed up at 0530 to get in line to vote.

Of course, I also spent 200 rounds at the range today with my M1A practicing my 400m shots for when the Mexican Army invades.  Hey, I'm just covering all the bases

Keep in mind, the guy who now gives ATF it's orders, will prolly take Rhenquists place on the court...... AND, the same guy who appointed him, just nominated another justice!!!  

Comforting ain't it............

Quoted: Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters, went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000 this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.) Steve is good people.  If you're ever in Blacksburg stop by his Surplus store on Main Street.  You're likely to find something.

No shit, north main across the street from Domino's????

Quoted: The "lessor of two evils", is STILL evil!!

And the greater of the two evil is more evil, whats your point?

Quoted: Do you have a link to this story so i can repost it else where? Thanks

www2.vcdl.org/cgi-bin/wspd_cgi.sh/vcdl/vadetail.html?RECID=842115&FILTER=

Quoted: Quoted: The "lessor of two evils", is STILL evil!!               And the greater of the two evil is more evil, whats your point?

The "point", for those who need everything explained to them, is this;

Both will take you to the SAME place.........

(It's ok jrz, you STILL won't get it)              

Quoted: Do you have a link to this story so i can repost it else where? Thanks

Thusfar all I have is the report from Phillip Van Cleave. If he sends more information, I will certainly update ARFCOM.

Is anyone planning to file a lawsuit against the BATFE for this action?

If so, I'm sure many here would donate to the legal fund.

As others have said before: FUCK THE BATFE!

Quoted: Quoted: Do you have a link to this story so i can repost it else where? Thanks Thusfar all I have is the report from Phillip Van Cleave. If he sends more information, I will certainly update ARFCOM.

All the alerts are archived here: www2.vcdl.org/cgi-bin/wspd_cgi.sh/vcdl/vaarchive.html?FILTER=

Quoted: Is anyone planning to file a lawsuit against the BATFE for this action? If so, I'm sure many here would donate to the legal fund. As others have said before: FUCK THE BATFE!

I believe the show promoter is retaining representation to make somebody eat some humble pie in public.

I got the email this afternoon and I believe it, totally.

This may be "Coming to a Town near YOU" soon enough.

Time to nip it in the bud...

Danny

I haven't read every response but I read the story earlier today and let me just say it's

Bizarre!  I really find it hard to believe this actually happened, though pretty obviously it did.

What in the world could have been the logic behind this?

It’s also not exactly clear how this went down.  My guess is that ATF simply supplied the information to the locals (the State Police also have the same info and could have done the same thing, but apparently by ATF’s own admission it was them).

Anyway, I’d say what happened was illegal.

There are some pretty clear federal laws dealing with the collection of personal information and how it is used.  While there’s no doubt some sort of “for law enforcement purposes” proviso, I don’t see that covering how the information was used here.

Anyone have a copy of an ATF form (I don’t)?  It should say somewhere why the information is being collected.

Quoted: I haven't read every response but I read the story earlier today and let me just say it's

I have seen some pretty hard to believe emails from the VCDL President.  Lots, nearly 100 I bet.

I remember saying to myself, "This has got to be bullshit!!!!  There is no way an elected official/cop/agent or whatever acted that way.  No way."

Then it turns out the VCDL President presses the issue and there is an announcement with a resolution and it turns out to be TRUE.

They haven't lied before.  I can't see them starting now.

FWIW.....

Quoted: It's been about 2 hours since I read that email, still can't really fathom just what the fuck they were doing. Just who do these asshats think they are? Someone needs a severe ass reaming for this bullshit.  Start with the fuckmunches and cumdumpsters at RPD and HCSD.

Isn't the HCSD the Henrico Police, not HCSD...at least that's what it says on their cars and uniforms...

Quoted: I haven't read every response but I read the story earlier today and let me just say it's

Yup the police and ATF are ALWAYS right. Including the one in Battle Creek that got caught molesting 2 kids and put a bullet thru his brain instead of being a man and getting ass pounded in prison. That must be BS too eh? A LEO could NEVER do that. we must kiss the feet of the great and mighty LEOs.

Quoted: Quoted: I haven't read every response but I read the story earlier today and let me just say it's I have seen some pretty hard to believe emails from the VCDL President.  Lots, nearly 100 I bet. I remember saying to myself, "This has got to be bullshit!!!!  There is no way an elected official/cop/agent or whatever acted that way.  No way." Then it turns out the VCDL President presses the issue and there is an announcement with a resolution and it turns out to be TRUE. They haven't lied before.  I can't see them starting now. FWIW.....

Even though I live out of state, I will be joining the VCDL.

Any organization like that deserves all the support that they can get.

Quoted: The story is skewed,  VA has a state background check, so it's the state sending out the PoPos as part of the background check, this is not ATFs doing.  If the ATF is involved in anything it's at the request of local PoPos. ..(snip).

Well in MY State, (PA) The State Police do the Background check OVER THE PHONE.

It takes about 2 minutes

Guess Virginias gunlaws ain't that good

Quoted: Other state gun organizations could learn a thing or two about grassroots gun-rights lobbying from the VCDL.

+1

We repelled a 2nd generation AWB in WA this past year.

It certainly helped that a lot of pro-gun folks turned out in Oly for the hearings.

There are lots of us...

Fred

tag