Quoted: Quoted: wrong jackass, he made a claim and now that he is being called on it he is the one glossing over things.   Besides I have no problems with the third strike law.  Anybody that hasn't learned after two felony  strikes, isn't the kind of guy we need on the streets.  Or are you going to try to argue that they were just poor dumb fucks that  got busted on the only two crimes they ever committed and that their lawyers were unable to get them reduced? No, I am arguing that it is a waste of tax dollars and causes more problems than it solves to put people in jail for drug offenses in general.

I take it you failed to notice that the marijuana busts were for possession while in custody??  With very few exceptions people don't go to jail for minor drug offenses, until several times into the system.  And any FELON who continues to break the law after two strikes doesn't deserve to be on the streets where he (or she) continues to break the law.  And if they are stupid enough to break the law while in custody, well I guess I'm not going to lose much sleep over them either.

Quoted: I take it you failed to notice that the marijuana busts were for possession while in custody??  With very few exceptions people don't go to jail for minor drug offenses, until several times into the system.  And any FELON who continues to break the law after two strikes doesn't deserve to be on the streets where he (or she) continues to break the law.  And if they are stupid enough to break the law while in custody, well I guess I'm not going to lose much sleep over them either.

No, I noticed that. It still doesn't make any sense to jail anyone for marijuana. The marijuana laws were ignorant nonsense from the very beginning and every major government commission that has studied the subject in the last 100 years has said that marijuana prohibition is a complete waste of tax dollars.

And you don't have to lose sleep over them. However, you ought to be concerned about stupid shit like this wasting your tax dollars. You pay for this stuff. Personally, I would rather see my tax dollars go to something more useful, like locking up people who did something more serious than smoking a joint.

That crime chart has nothing to do with drug laws. It is more about immigration and the waves of immigration that Congress allows (both legal and illegal). Both forms of immigration needs to be heavily curtailed if not just for the safety of people here, but for the environment as well.[/size-2]

Quoted: Quoted: I take it you failed to notice that the marijuana busts were for possession while in custody??  With very few exceptions people don't go to jail for minor drug offenses, until several times into the system.  And any FELON who continues to break the law after two strikes doesn't deserve to be on the streets where he (or she) continues to break the law.  And if they are stupid enough to break the law while in custody, well I guess I'm not going to lose much sleep over them either. No, I noticed that. It still doesn't make any sense to jail anyone for marijuana. The marijuana laws were ignorant nonsense from the very beginning and every major government commission that has studied the subject in the last 100 years has said that marijuana prohibition is a complete waste of tax dollars. And you don't have to lose sleep over them. However, you ought to be concerned about stupid shit like this wasting your tax dollars. You pay for this stuff. Personally, I would rather see my tax dollars go to something more useful, like locking up people who did something more serious than smoking a joint.

Like killing a police officer trying to enforce the marijuana laws ? That's more serious, right ?

Until the law is changed, it is the law.  You cannot fault the LEO's trying to do their job, we took an oath.   LEO's do not get to decide which law is right or wrong.  

My question to you is do you support LEO's who enforce the laws or just some of the laws ?

Quoted: Quoted: The phony War on Drugs is just that. Yep, phony shooting, phony kids hooked on drugs, phony homicides, phoney crime rates, phoney thefts due to drugs, phoney ................hmmmmmmmmmmmm......I'm seeing a trend here.................................. Yep, your phoney support of law and order.

I love how some people use the problems caused by prohibition to justify prohibition.  It is like justifying hitting yourself in the head with a hammer by saying you are trying to cure a headache.

Let's review the facts:
"drug-related shootings" -- essentially unknown before prohibition

kids hooked on drugs -- The US Government's own surveys show that kids report that it is easier to get illegal drugs than the legal ones. Of course, this is the same thing they experienced during the huge teen drinking epidemic during alcohol prohibition.

drug-related homicides -- essentially unknown before prohibition

crime rates -- Drug-related crime (except for that related to alcohol) was essentially unknown before prohibition

thefts due to drugs -- essentially unknown before prohibition.

"Support of law and order"???? -- Don't make me laugh. If you read the history of these laws you would know that they never really had anything to do with law and order.

But you can go hit yourself in the head with a hammer until you get that headache cured.

Quoted: That crime chart has nothing to do with drug laws. It is more about immigration and the waves of immigration that Congress allows (both legal and illegal). Both forms of immigration needs to be heavily curtailed if not just for the safety of people here, but for the environment as well.[/size-2]

That's absolute nonsense. The homicide rate rose and fell very clearly with the beginning and end of prohibition. There is no such correlation with immigration.

So if we go by your analogy, then we just let the people smoke as much pot as they want ?   Give it to their kids, take it to school, kinda like alcohol is now ?   Right.  

According to you, I'm using a hammer, my guess is, your using a bong.  

Quoted: Like killing a police officer trying to enforce the marijuana laws ? That's more serious, right ?

That's right, and if someone does something like that then you don't need a marijuana law to bust him, do you?

Until the law is changed, it is the law.  You cannot fault the LEO's trying to do their job, we took an oath.   LEO's do not get to decide which law is right or wrong.

Where did I fault the LEOs for doing their job? Do you understand the difference between wanting a change in the law and faulting LEOs?

My question to you is do you support LEO's who enforce the laws or just some of the laws ?

I know that lots of prohibitionists and a fair amount of LEOs get confused about this stuff. I have come to the conclusion that, for many of them, there is a basic inability to process logical distinctions in the brain. Like some people can't do algebra. If someone opposes the law, then they automatically think that people are bashing cops. Not true, so get over it.

So let's review it slowly. I want to see a change in the laws. I have no problem with LEOs doing their job as they should, and I definitely don't think they should get shot in the process.

However, I do take issue with many of them who obviously view the drug war as one big gravy train and chance to get new toys. When they start politically supporting the war on drugs either out of ignorance or for their own benefit, that's where we part company.  

For example, many police departments in California are dependent on drug-related seizures for items of basic budget. That is, if they don't seize enough property using the excuse of drugs, then cops will lose their jobs. That's institutional corruption and such a conflict of interest would never be allowed in any other area of government.

Quoted: Flashback, Do you remember when weed was sold by fingers. Man the good o'l days of a four finger bags, I think they were call lids

How about nickel and dime bags?

Quoted: So if we go by your analogy, then we just let the people smoke as much pot as they want ?   Give it to their kids, take it to school, kinda like alcohol is now ?   Right.

We tried stopping people from using as much alcohol as they want. How did that work out?

As for the kids, alcohol is legal for adults, not legal for kids, not legal to take to school, etc.

And, if you think the situation with kids and alcohol is bad now, you should read up on alcohol prohibition. That triggered the biggest drinking epidemic ever seen among US kids.  

You know, it is the same thing you could figure out if you looked at current government surveys where kids report that it is easier to get illegal drugs than the legal, regulated ones.

But, of course, that is the same lesson we learned with alcohol prohibition and it is one of the major reasons that it was repealed.

And let me say again that I really love how people use the problems caused by prohibition to justify prohibition. They invariably say that we have to do it "for the kids" even while they refuse to read anything on the subject.

According to you, I'm using a hammer, my guess is, your using a bong.

If you think so, then we have proof prositive that you have hit yourself in the head with that hammer one too many times.

Quoted: Quoted: So if we go by your analogy, then we just let the people smoke as much pot as they want ?   Give it to their kids, take it to school, kinda like alcohol is now ?   Right.   We tried stopping people from using as much alcohol as they want. How did that work out? It did not work out and look what it has caused decades later. As for the kids, alcohol is legal for adults, not legal for kids, not legal to take to school, etc. Yep, we are paying for it now, legalize weed and the same thing will happen, only worse. And, if you think the situation with kids and alcohol is bad now, you should read up on alcohol prohibition. That triggered the biggest drinking epidemic ever seen among US kids.  In case you haven't noticed, its still bad. You know, it is the same thing you could figure out if you looked at current government surveys where kids report that it is easier to get illegal drugs than the legal, regulated ones.   Granted, but it is our society's lax morality that allows this type of thinking, no enforcement = its okay. But, of course, that is the same lesson we learned with alcohol prohibition and it is one of the major reasons that it was repealed.  I'll bet if you put it to a vote today, drugs would not become legal. And let me say again that I really love how people use the problems caused by prohibition to justify prohibition. They invariably say that we have to do it "for the kids" even while they refuse to read anything on the subject.  I don't think doing it for the kids is in anyway all of it.   It is for the good of everyone, all the victims and family members. According to you, I'm using a hammer, my guess is, your using a bong.   If you think so, then we have proof prositive that you have hit yourself in the head with that hammer one too many times.

  Could be, but what are you going to do about the bong ?

Quoted: It did not work out and look what it has caused decades later.

So do you think we should bring back alcohol prohibition to solve those problems?

Yep, we are paying for it now, legalize weed and the same thing will happen, only worse.

You obviously missed the fact that things were far worse with alcohol during alcohol prohibition than they are now. Today ain't perfect but it is a ton better than during alcohol prohibition.

And, if you think the situation with kids and alcohol is bad now, you should read up on alcohol prohibition. That triggered the biggest drinking epidemic ever seen among US kids.  In case you haven't noticed, its still bad.

Not nearly as bad as it was during alcohol prohibition.

You know, it is the same thing you could figure out if you looked at current government surveys where kids report that it is easier to get illegal drugs than the legal, regulated ones.   Granted, but it is our society's lax morality that allows this type of thinking, no enforcement = its okay.

No, you are confused. Let's try the example of alcohol. Just because it is legal doesn't mean that drinking alcohol is "okay". It just means that prohibition didn't work and only made things worse.

But, of course, that is the same lesson we learned with alcohol prohibition and it is one of the major reasons that it was repealed.  I'll bet if you put it to a vote today, drugs would not become legal.

Yeah, I know. That is due to widespread ignorance. The people who support this policy can't answer the most basic factual questions.  I can prove that any time you are ready.

I don't think doing it for the kids is in anyway all of it.   It is for the good of everyone, all the victims and family members.

Then you would support alcohol prohibition again, I take it.

Could be, but what are you going to do about the bong ?

Put down the hammer, you have hit yourself one too many times again.

My self inflicted wounds will heal, how about your delusional judgement ?

Quoted: My self inflicted wounds will heal, how about your delusional judgement ?

Now there is a stunning argument. You wouldn't care to take issue with any actual factual points, would you?  

I didn't think so.

I apologize for interrupting your debate but here's an updated article about the event that was the genesis for this thread:

Pot bust takes violent turn
ONE WOUNDED, ANOTHER KILLED
By Ken McLaughlin and Brandon Bailey
San Jose Mercury News
Aug. 06, 2005

Bay Area pot farming is taking a frightening new turn.

A state Fish and Game warden was shot in both legs and a man was killed Friday during an early morning raid on a huge marijuana garden near Mount Umunhum in a rugged, remote area of Santa Clara County. The incident came a day after Santa Cruz County authorities stamped out one of the most sophisticated pot-growing operations they have ever seen.

Both operations had the hallmarks of aggressive Mexican drug cartels, which in recent years have cornered California's marijuana-growing market, state drug agents say.

"It's scary," Bob Cooke, special agent in charge of the state Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement in San Jose, said of the new trend. "Once you hit the ground, they are dressed in camouflage and hide in tunnels and scurry up trees and watch us from above."

On Thursday, "they all ran, but today they shot back," Cooke said Friday.

An unidentified man who authorities say had been guarding the pot farm died after being hit in an exchange of gunfire during the raid, carried out by Santa Clara County sheriff's deputies with the assistance of three wardens.

Friday night, sheriff's deputies and San Jose police officers were "scouring the hillsides" for his partner, a sheriff's spokesman said.

The injured Fish and Game warden was identified as Kyle Kroll, 25, of Mountain View, who has been a warden for two years. He was airlifted to Santa Clara Valley Medical Center, said Steve Martarano, spokesman for the state Department of Fish and Game. He underwent surgery Friday afternoon and was listed in stable condition.

Armed confrontation

Terrance Helm, a sheriff's spokesman, said the narcotics team was confronted by two armed men about two hours after deputies launched the raid. "That's when the shooting began," he said.

Helm said he couldn't disclose specifics of the incident, such as how many shots were fired, or what led to the shooting.

Kroll was evacuated by helicopter about 10:30 a.m. The suspect, Helm said, died while sheriff's deputies waited for a SWAT team "to secure the area." At the time, deputies didn't know if there were any other armed men in the area, Helm said.

The approximately 3-acre pot farm is on the eastern slope of Mount Umunhum in the 16,879-acre Sierra Azul open-space reserve, which is owned by Midpeninsula Regional Open Space District. The place where the plants were found is closed to the public.

More than 10,000 plants, 4- to 5-feet tall, were discovered. The district staff had reportedly alerted authorities to the pot farm, which is in an area so remote that it takes about an hour to hike from the nearest road. Cooke said the growers had dug irrigation ponds and filled them with water carried in from hoses from underground springs.

Agents Friday brought back about 500 plants and two pellet rifles, but authorities said they did not believe those were the guns the suspects used in the shoot-out. They planned to work all day today to finish clearing out the plants.

In Santa Cruz County, the Marijuana Enforcement Team on Thursday confiscated 4,700 plants off a hiking trail in Big Basin Park.

Cartel suspected

Because of the intricacy and size of that operation, authorities said they suspected the garden was run by a Mexican cartel. Sheriff's deputies said on Thursday they found four camp sites arranged around a centralized cooking area amid manicured rows of pot plants.

State drug agents say the Mexican cartels have boosted both the potency of marijuana and the propensity for violence.

"Last year we had at least three shootings that I remember," Cooke said.

'More money involved'

"It used to be they would booby-trap the gardens and leave them unattended, or they would just run,'' Cooke said. ``Now they're becoming more confrontational because . . . it's much better dope, and there's a lot more money involved."

Authorities say the multi-billion-dollar cartels have found it safer and more lucrative to grow marijuana in the United States than to have to smuggle it into the country. Instead, the cartels smuggle in low-paid Mexican guards, hand them rifles and shotguns, and order them to shoot anyone passing by the gardens.

``They spend all their time in the gardens and speak little or no English and are told to defend the garden whatever way they can,'' said Robin Schwanke, a spokeswoman for state Attorney General Bill Lockyer.

The attorney general's office estimates that about 85 percent of the pot in the state is now grown by Mexican cartels.

Martarano said Fish and Game wardens are often requested to assist in marijuana eradication raids.

Authorities have seen a dramatic jump in marijuana planting in recent years. Agents increasingly have found the crop growing in secluded public areas such as the Sequoia National Forest. The same cartels are also involved in trafficking methamphetamine, cocaine and heroin. Agents say pot is a seasonal business for the cartels since it's mostly grown in the summer.

Helm said more than three dozen deputies and officers from other police agencies were searching for the armed man throughout the day Friday. The search through the low brush and steep terrain was made more difficult because ridges blocked cell phone transmission and other communication. The officers lugged satellite phones to try to get around the problem.

The Mount Umunhum area has multi-million-dollar houses as well as smaller, less well-kept homes.

Authorities say such marijuana operations present a danger to people who hike through the area because they risk stumbling across marijuana plots run by armed criminals.

"It's scary for everybody," said Karen Sepahmansour, a nearby resident who had just returned from a hike in the same hills where officers were hunting a fugitive with a gun.

"We're calling our neighbors,'' she said, ``and telling our kids to stay in the house right now."

www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12319275.htm

Quoted: Quoted: The phony War on Drugs is just that. Yep, phony shooting, phony kids hooked on drugs, phony homicides, phoney crime rates, phoney thefts due to drugs, phoney ................hmmmmmmmmmmmm......I'm seeing a trend here.................................. Yep, your phoney support of law and order.

Where did I say I supported "law and order?"