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Posted: 7/16/2001 2:05:44 AM EDT
How will it be applied to, lets say, some city in America if their is rebellion?
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 2:23:07 AM EDT
It won't
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 3:03:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN: It won't
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You what MOUT training is for?
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 3:18:07 AM EDT
Well, I am an active duty Marine Officer, I think I have seen Military Operations in Urban Terrain at least once our twice before, maybe it was on TV?
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 3:36:58 AM EDT
This may come as a shock, andreusan, but there are urban areas outside the borders of our nation. For example, Hue, Kosovo, Kuwait City, Panama City, Monrovia, Beruit, Seoul, I could go on. In all of these places, Marines fought in an Urban Enviroment. Don't you think they should be trained for this? Or are you so delusional that you believe that MOUT training is really a precursor to martial law inside the US? This is what you are insinuating, right? The Marines also trains in desert warfare, should the peolpe of Palm Springs be worried? The Marines practice amphibious landings, should the people of Daytona Beach be worried? No. No. Stop the "Red Dawn" fantasizing, Rambo. Do something productive, something positive. Find a nice hobby.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 4:47:05 AM EDT
Nice Shot Major!!! As a retired 1SG with 24 years of active duty in the U.S. Army, it never stops amazing me how many people around the net seem to always think everything is about taking over the USA. As the Major stated the Military has to train to fight in an urban area, so they can prevent anymore loss of Fine young Americans than need be. I spent most of my career jumping out of airplanes and securing airfields for follow on forces to land. Just because that was our primary initial invasion mission does not mean we ever planned on taking down the Atlanta Airport. AMERICA, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 4:57:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 5:15:42 AM EDT
Remember Mogadishu, Somalia? Task Force Ranger? Blackhawk Down? How about Hue, Vietnam? That was ugly-assed house to house fighting, and all supporting arms were forbidden in the first days of the fight because of the historical nature of the old imperial capital. Urban combat is just the reality in 21st century warfare. It's ethnicities and factions fighting over populated and built-out areas. Believe me, any Marine officer who orders his troops to attack Reno, NV or Waxahachie, TX has more to fear from his own men than from the residents of the towns in question. FMCDH Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. -------------------- "There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes, and the other is the Bill of Rights." --Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 8:45:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Remember Mogadishu, Somalia? Task Force Ranger? Blackhawk Down? How about Hue, Vietnam? That was ugly-assed house to house fighting, and all supporting arms were forbidden in the first days of the fight because of the historical nature of the old imperial capital. Urban combat is just the reality in 21st century warfare. It's ethnicities and factions fighting over populated and built-out areas. Believe me, any Marine officer who orders his troops to attack Reno, NV or Waxahachie, TX has more to fear from his own men than from the residents of the towns in question. FMCDH Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. -------------------- "There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes, and the other is the Bill of Rights." --Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC
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Good, calm, common sense responds!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 9:11:40 AM EDT
Andrea- First, I'd yell at you for your horrid spelling, but since you probably haven't finished your junior high English classes yet, I'll let that pass. I can draw no other conclusion from your constant childish, moronic posts other than this: you are pretty much what Garand Shooter said- a 15 year old kid with a couple of copies of SOF, or a wannabe who talks tough on the web. Either one is equally plausible. You are certainly not a reasonable adult with any real experience in the military or law enforcement. If you think that the reason U.S. military troops are receiving MOUT training is so they can better 'take over' our cities, you have no understanding of modern warfare. City fighting is probably the most hazardous thing ground troops can do, and our troops have been forced to do it in nearly every war we've fought. Why shouldn't they be taught how to do it properly? Read Major Murphy's post again, carefully. Especially the last line. You are an idiot. Stop reading the darn milita pamphlets and survival books and focus on graduating from high school with some decent grades. And yes, you can walk to your after-school job at McDonalds without fearing that the black helicopters will drop UN paratroopers on you. I await your 'good, calm, common sense response' (note that your use of 'responds' was incorrect). Based on your history, I expect it will involve some rather juvenile name-calling and hysterics. And don't forget to do your homework!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 9:27:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By andreusan:
Originally Posted By STLRN: It won't
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You what MOUT training is for?
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I don't know the exact numbers, but I beleive that about 60% of the worlds people live in urban areas. MOUT training could save the lives countless American troops.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 9:28:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 9:32:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr: Your response can stand on it's own, without having to add the name-calling! Remember.....you must lead by example!
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Bravo! Name callers lose credibility.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:20:29 PM EDT
I've done extensive MOUT training and to be honest, when I was an infantry platoon leader, the prospect of city fighting scared the crap out of me. In almost every MOUT exercise, a very small band of defenders can take out more than half of a much larger band of attackers. Basically, unless you're willing to destroy the buildings to get the defenders, you're gonna suffer some serious losses in building-clearing, particularly if you're fighting defenders who don't mind dying in place.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 12:27:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sparky315: Andrea- First, I'd yell at you for your horrid spelling, but since you probably haven't finished your junior high English classes yet, I'll let that pass. I can draw no other conclusion from your constant childish, moronic posts other than this: you are pretty much what Garand Shooter said- a 15 year old kid with a couple of copies of SOF, or a wannabe who talks tough on the web. Either one is equally plausible. You are certainly not a reasonable adult with any real experience in the military or law enforcement. If you think that the reason U.S. military troops are receiving MOUT training is so they can better 'take over' our cities, you have no understanding of modern warfare. City fighting is probably the most hazardous thing ground troops can do, and our troops have been forced to do it in nearly every war we've fought. Why shouldn't they be taught how to do it properly? Read Major Murphy's post again, carefully. Especially the last line. You are an idiot. Stop reading the darn milita pamphlets and survival books and focus on graduating from high school with some decent grades. And yes, you can walk to your after-school job at McDonalds without fearing that the black helicopters will drop UN paratroopers on you. I await your 'good, calm, common sense response' (note that your use of 'responds' was incorrect). Based on your history, I expect it will involve some rather juvenile name-calling and hysterics. And don't forget to do your homework!
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You have an awful lot of time to flame me, why don't you tell all what you do in real life, and, do you do it to only those who expound upon something you do not like, like let's say traditional American ideals and values?!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 2:17:03 PM EDT
When it is really hot in the training area enlisted men go into the dry sewer trainers and the cement block basements while senior NCOs and oficers retreat to the vans and jeeps with the A/C running full blast. The purpose of a MOUT training area is to avoid heat stroke while still letting the senior people think they are special.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 3:57:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: When it is really hot in the training area enlisted men go into the dry sewer trainers and the cement block basements while senior NCOs and oficers retreat to the vans and jeeps with the A/C running full blast. The purpose of a MOUT training area is to avoid heat stroke while still letting the senior people think they are special.
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What the hell are you talking about? What kind of f'ed up unit are/were you in? I've never seen this.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 4:07:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2001 4:06:16 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 4:20:38 PM EDT
Ummm, We never had any vans in TO&E, and jeeps were phased out in favor of the HUMMV in my unit in 1985. Not an air conditioner in any of them. Seriously though. An attacking force can suffer severe losses in a MOUT scenario. Especially if the defender is organized. My reserve platoon trains about 50/50 MOUT/conventional warfare. I wish it were more, I'd very much like to bring all my soldiers back. TOO many times in training I've seen 70% casualties in the attacking force. (Gotta love that MILES gear) The ideal SOP would be to call arty in and flatten the place, but that's not always possible. I really hate to hold up a movie as an example, mostly because it's so hokey, but watch "Enemy at the Gates" to get some idea what I'm talking about.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 4:31:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johninaustin: Ummm, We never had any vans in TO&E, and jeeps were phased out in favor of the HUMMV in my unit in 1985. Not an air conditioner in any of them. Seriously though. An attacking force can suffer severe losses in a MOUT scenario. Especially if the defender is organized. My reserve platoon trains about 50/50 MOUT/conventional warfare. I wish it were more, I'd very much like to bring all my soldiers back. TOO many times in training I've seen 70% casualties in the attacking force. (Gotta love that MILES gear) The ideal SOP would be to call arty in and flatten the place, but that's not always possible. I really hate to hold up a movie as an example, mostly because it's so hokey, but watch "Enemy at the Gates" to get some idea what I'm talking about.
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However, little consideration is given to being the targets of ambush, by highly trained and properly equipped guerilla force, am I right?
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 4:37:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 5:04:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter:
Originally Posted By andreusan: However, little consideration is given to being the targets of ambush, by highly trained and properly equipped guerilla force, am I right?
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Nope, most of the training at the JRTC, Ft Polk centers around just that, fighting a small guerilla force. The largest force I have ever engaged there was 20, but we were normally hit by elements that were from 4-9 strong. The JRTC has the finest mout sites in the country also, IMHO. The CMTC Hohenfels, Germany is a nice facility also.
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But those who created the training, also built in controls, so those who are trained feel they are superior to any opposing force, which is good to a point! T he truth is, no American force in modern times has confronted a large guerrilla force with any real success, example as in SOMALIA where there was a reality check for all envolved in that action, was it not! It would be arrogant to assume MOUT could be used in America with any real success, against a determined guerrilla! Again I say to those who say the military would not be used against American citizens, history has proven otherwise, that is why the post Can Soldiers Be Peace Officers? Just MHO!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 5:18:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 5:24:38 PM EDT
I'll be at JRTC in 13 days, so I guess I'll see first hand how realistic it is. I don't remember any AC in any of my military vehicles either, unless you want to count the holes in the roof with the wind blowing through.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 5:51:47 PM EDT
The only military vehicle with air conditioners I have ever been in was an ambulance. Unfortunately, I was not the one driving. Lew
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 6:02:32 PM EDT
Just an anecdote. A while back I participated in a company assault of a FT Bragg MOUT village. I was in the third squad of the third platoon to attack. I was the FIRST person to enter a building. 70+ troops got picked off in the approach by maybe 20 defenders! Taking ground in Mout is extremely costly. Once I got inside though, my fire team was fairly effective at room clearing. andreusan - not a flame, but I really have a hard time understanding the meaning of your posts sometimes. It is like you are leaving out words for brevity, but the readers coherency suffers.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 6:06:10 PM EDT
Maybe andreusan thinks that the city LEO's will be able to handle the urban environment. Thats it, lets air drop LEO's into the urban areas outside our borders. Air conditioning! What you be talkin about Willis? I wish that I was in the Military that you were in. Or are you just trying to be sarcastic?
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 6:09:34 PM EDT
Don't want to make a big fight out of this, WRT the vehicle thing, but.... I'm sure your unit had Hummers, and they drove you there in trucks. There is also usually a big motor pool on base without a lot of cammie or guys in BDUs, filled with cars for the civvies and majors and up, and jeep cherokees and vans for other folks. These have A/C.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 6:18:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By andreusan:
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter:
Originally Posted By andreusan: truth is, no American force in modern times has confronted a large guerrilla force with any real success, example as in SOMALIA where there was a reality check for all envolved in that action, was it not! Just MHO!
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Now, I am all for open discussion and sharing of opininions. But, don't forget yourself... I, being a former member of the United States Military (as, it seems, are several of the posters here), have a question for you: Did you stand up, raise your right hand, and swear to put your life on the line for your country? Have you laid in a hastily dug fighting position half-full of frozen water for hours on end not knowing if you were going to die that morning? Have you humped your pack, without second thought, into harms way? I only ask becuase of the complete arrogance and disrepect you seem to show in the context of the confilct in Somalia and to soldiers who do their duty in general. Remember one thing: these brave men and women you like to spout off about risk their lives every single day so that you don't have to! Those men in Somalia landed in the middle of a sh*t-storm the intensity of which no one was prepared for. But, they sucked it up, drove on, and despite the total breakdown in inter-service command communication, completed the mission. Someone made a good point earlier: people die in war. Don't forget that next time you decide to stomp all over the memories of those who bravely went where most would not so you didn't have to! Just MY humble opinion.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 6:24:19 PM EDT
Happyshooter, I'd very much like to know what military you were in. Not a flame, but it might help us understand where you're coming from. Your statements are very confusing.
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 6:59:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FMJunkie:
Originally Posted By andreusan:
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter:
Originally Posted By andreusan: truth is, no American force in modern times has confronted a large guerrilla force with any real success, example as in SOMALIA where there was a reality check for all envolved in that action, was it not! Just MHO!
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Now, I am all for open discussion and sharing of opininions. But, don't forget yourself... I, being a former member of the United States Military (as, it seems, are several of the posters here), have a question for you: Did you stand up, raise your right hand, and swear to put your life on the line for your country? Have you laid in a hastily dug fighting position half-full of frozen water for hours on end not knowing if you were going to die that morning? Have you humped your pack, without second thought, into harms way? I only ask becuase of the complete arrogance and disrepect you seem to show in the context of the confilct in Somalia and to soldiers who do their duty in general. Remember one thing: these brave men and women you like to spout off about risk their lives every single day so that you don't have to! Those men in Somalia landed in the middle of a sh*t-storm the intensity of which no one was prepared for. But, they sucked it up, drove on, and despite the total breakdown in inter-service command communication, completed the mission. Someone made a good point earlier: people die in war. Don't forget that next time you decide to stomp all over the memories of those who bravely went where most would not so you didn't have to! Just MY humble opinion.
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I took the oath, and and surely know people do die in war, but focus on something that all seem to want not talk about, that is the very real threat of U.S. MILITARY forces being used against American citizens! You do not like the topic too damn bad, and think all you want that it is disrespect! There is nothing complex about it, just a focus on what people on this board think of MOUT and its use against Americans, is that too hard to understand. Do you even know if the military has been used in recent times against the citizens? The threat is very real that the citizens would rise up against those who seek to disarm them, or are you too blinded by the media to see it? Have you read the reports published by the FBI that label any and all who expound upon traditional American ideals and values as terrorists, or potential terrorist against the UNITED STATES, but mind you the word "America" never appears in any of these publications, titled TERRORISM IN THE UNITED STATES. It is published every year and distributed to all Law Enforcement Agencies, and the like! Why do you think some in DC want .50 BMG weapons banned, "because they fear the citizens may target them with them!" Why do you think they demonize the militia as the enemy of the state, at every chance? Yes, this is a topic that many wish would fade into the darkness of denial, but it may very well haunt all of us in the near future! That is why the topic!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/16/2001 7:58:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 2:22:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By andreusan: I took the oath, and and surely know people do die in war, but focus on something that all seem to want not talk about, that is the very real threat of U.S. MILITARY forces being used against American citizens! You do not like the topic too damn bad, and think all you want that it is disrespect! ... Yes, this is a topic that many wish would fade into the darkness of denial, but it may very well haunt all of us in the near future! That is why the topic!!!!!
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If you are claiming that you have served in the military then tell us all what you did. You often come across in your posts as a complete know-nothing who has no clue as to military tactics or doctrine. If you really did serve, what did you do? Nobody is in denial about this topic - but everyone who has served in combat units (myself included) finds NOTHING sinister about MOUT training. Why do you?
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Well, well, how snitty!!! I really have nothing against training troops to battle an enemy of America! Judging from the past and present trend in DC to use military and military tactics in law enforcement against the citizenry, I have a problem with the real danger of deploying those same troops against Americans, simply because Americans will now fire back at them, for they have had it with rogus officials, or is that too hard to understand for you??? Think I am dumb, great, think I never served and just a know nothing wannabe, that is great too, BUT, MAY I ASK, WHY DO YOU READ THE KNOW NOTHING POSTS????????????
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 2:47:17 AM EDT
Well, you have to put me also in the list of people that don't think you have been in the military. The reason I continue to read what you right is for a good laugh also, since your posting about equipment and TTP for warfare seem not to make a lot of sense. My biggest questions to all the big time SHTF types. If you actually think all the bad things are going on why have you not take action yet? If I believe what a lot of you say you believe I would have already take actions, and not just running around the woods in cammies and talking about it on the Internet.
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 3:16:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN: Well, you have to put me also in the list of people that don't think you have been in the military. The reason I continue to read what you right is for a good laugh also, since your posting about equipment and TTP for warfare seem not to make a lot of sense. My biggest questions to all the big time SHTF types. If you actually think all the bad things are going on why have you not take action yet? If I believe what a lot of you say you believe I would have already take actions, and not just running around the woods in cammies and talking about it on the Internet.
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This is good, that you think the way you do!! They await your leadership, and the leadership of many others on this board, who like you have the same negative train of thought! Just trying to find the smartest one, you know the know it all, then we have it made!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 3:32:24 AM EDT
Well it is simple, just tell us what unit you were with. I'm not asking for what fire team of what platoon. Just the company or Battalion. Because your posting on warfighting don't match any US of foriegn doctrine out there. Your postings on equipment don't goi along with what is in the US inventory at least.
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 3:53:06 AM EDT
Andreusan, in case you haven't noticed, there appears to be a large number of folks here who are basically calling you a liar (add me to the list). Now, I don't know about you, but a man with any sense of honor usually doesn't take too kindly to such insinuations. You should refute these claims, and tell us of your glorious military experience. ...or are you used to being dishonored, and called a liar?
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 4:11:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major Murphy: Andreusan, in case you haven't noticed, there appears to be a large number of folks here who are basically calling you a liar (add me to the list). Now, I don't know about you, but a man with any sense of honor usually doesn't take too kindly to such insinuations. You should refute these claims, and tell us of your glorious military experience. ...or are you used to being dishonored, and called a liar?
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Actually it is but a few, legends in their own minds, that infer such things, get your facts straight first, count how many read the posts, then see how few have key board rage!!!! You do not dishonor me and calling me a liar, surely is not to my face, but over the web, so no big deal at least not to me, I enjoy the rage some of you display!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 4:18:57 AM EDT
...but no military experience at all, huh?
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 4:41:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major Murphy: ...but no military experience at all, huh?
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Your words, not mine!!! Keep guessing though!!
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 4:49:34 AM EDT
Here's a guess... If you DID serve, than your utter lack of knowledge (demonstrated by your inane posts and comments) would indicate that you were not in combat arms, OR not too bright.
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 4:52:00 AM EDT
[img]http://www.sudobash.com/~jon99/obvious.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 4:57:52 AM EDT
Dude, you kill me! LOL!
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 5:02:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2001 5:00:38 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 5:02:43 AM EDT
"Once more into the breach, dear friends, once more!" --William Shakespeare, Henry V
Originally Posted By andreusan: Good, calm, common sense responds!
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I'm glad you can see the common sense to my reply, but this obviously doesn't butter the biscuit for you. You insist on seeing dark, NWO-like ulterior motives for MOUT training even when every service member past and present on this board is telling you the cold, hard, real-world facts. Military Operations in Urban Terrain is the way modern warfare is being fought. Our troops are exposed to it everyday. That is a fact not open to debate or interpretation. Macedonia, Bosnia, Kosovo and a host of other haven't-quite-made-the-news-yet European and African states are seeing American boys patrolling their streets because long-standing ethnic rivalries are making the local police and military ineffective. Extranational (which quite often means American) troops are sent in to run out the bad guys du jour or just to keep the red team from raping, starving, blowing up and otherwise exterminating the blue team. This requires extensive training in operating in that terrain. Learning the tricks of the trade once you get there is too expensive, as we learned in Hue City and Mogadishu. With all that said, you refuse to acknowledge the legitimate need to have our troops prepared for real world situations they have faced and continue to face everyday. You keep referring to the threat of US troops being used domestically against US citizens. If you could give us some specific scenarios or real-world information you have, this debate could be kept above the "tinfoil hat" level. When you accuse the military of being a threat to the United States of America and the United States Constitution, you insult service members who swore an oath to defend that Constitution, and the memory of service members who died doing just that. If you have military experience and you're just concerned with keeping [b]our[/b] house in order, you should clear that matter up. Otherwise you risk coming off as an armchair quarterback. FMCDH Semper Fidelis Jarhead out.
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 6:03:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 7:04:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 7:35:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By andreusan: Think I am dumb, great, think I never served and just a know nothing wannabe, that is great too, BUT, MAY I ASK, WHY DO YOU READ THE KNOW NOTHING POSTS????????????
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It seems to me that the burden of intelligence falls on the poster, not the reader. An intelligent person can READ an unintelligent/uninformed post without it reflecting on his/her intelligence in the least. It is the poster, not the reader, who is claiming implicitly by posting that they have something to contribute. So my .02 is that having people read your posts does not possess the power you seem to think it has... On the other hand, this whole andreusan issue should come as a surprise to nobody. Good old Sam Clemens remarked, "The less a man knows the bigger the noise he makes..." I think it's some of the lurkers who are able to watch andre's antics that are really getting the last laugh.
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 7:58:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 8:48:52 AM EDT
Hi Johninaustin; Sure, 5 years Marine Corps Air Wing (the MASS, so we did cool gun stuff, shooting M2s and such), and 6 years in the national guard, including a call up for Germany for the first bosnia thing. Maybe things were different in the more combat directed units, but our senior guys always has jeep cherokees and vans and cars w A/C when it was hot, so they could be cool and lead better. Sometimes they were base motor pool, and other times they were rentals. In fact, in the Corps, while out on another Cali exercise one time, some LTs traded in their sedan and paid for an upgrade to a Vette. That was cool. Most of the time I was on lower enlisted orders. One time in the Corps I was on the same orders as SNCOs and officers, without the car, but it was sweet and very profitible for me. In the guard we were an MP unit, and some of our deployments also came with per diem, and one time even with a rental van to share, even though we were low ranking (it was an LE slanted unit, so we didn't have as much Hummer deployment stuff to do). At other times we would be given a base motor pool van to share.
Link Posted: 7/17/2001 8:57:46 AM EDT
Geez. Why don't we just completely disarm the military, and only allow girls between the ages of 12 and 14 to serve. Then all Americans could feel safe. They could be trained to yell into bull horns "Hey you guys stop doing that, or we'll tell!"
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