ATF changes the rules again! - Page 2

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Posted: 7/13/2005 12:14:23 PM EDT

[#1]

The kits will still come into the country but without the barrels.

Take a G3 kit for example. They will have to remove the cocking tube, triple frame, FH, and trunion from the barrel before they can import them. Those man hours will only aid in driving the cost up. They you have the whole issue of finding a barrel, which will dry up fast as people start to get wind of this.

All around guys, this is not good news. Nothing good will come of this.
CH

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:00:51 PM EDT

[#2]

Bump for the afternoon crowd.

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:00:55 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:
OK guys here the short shrift of it. I figured out the legalese!! This will NOT prevent importers from getting Milsurp kits!! This is basically a WARNING LETTER!! according to the law it states that these part kits are for replacement ONLY, no building a new gun from scratch.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that's not the way I read it.......

"Accordingly, ATF will no longer approve ATF Form 6 applications for importation of any frames, receivers, or barrels for firearms that would be prohibited from importation if assembled. No exceptions to the statutory language, for example for “repair or replacement” of existing firearms, will be allowed."

to me it sounds like they are closing that loophole that allowed parts kit to be imported......for any reason

MY BAD! I finnally figured it out, this will essentially ban barrels and recievers. NOT actual "parts" meaning triggers, bolts, etc. So basically you'll have to go with US barrels and Receivers. So when you now get a parts kit it will be minus the receiver AND barrel. Woop-dee-do! most milsurp barrels are rust tubes anyway! though i still think it stinks! Except for Krinkovs i don't see this as really affecting anything that much, never mind that we also have a 2 month extension. So all you krink builders out there get workin'.

Several come in with good barrels. It will probably kill the plans to import Imbel 5.56 kit. No more 1919, AK, FAL, Gaili (sp) barrels. Big deal if you want to replace your barrel with a cheap unit.

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:07:38 PM EDT

[#4]

See how easy that backdoor AWB was?
Fight tooth and nail for 10 years and the goobs can nullify that with a reinterpretation.

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:13:19 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Gonzalas and the ATF are a bunch of cocksuckers.

+infinity

Wait til the MF'er gets on SCROTUS.
BOHICA.

Excerpt from "Enemies, Foreign and Domestic":

From the front seat Hummel turned to the others and said, “Listen, one more stop and we’ll call it a day. Let’s visit a gun store for a compliance visit; you can see the kind of crap ATF is up against every day. Take a right after the Union 76, then head south on 32.” Like most BATFE agents, Hummel had never gotten used to the new letter tacked onto the already too long name of their bureau and he still called it simply the ATF.

State Road 32 was a two lane blacktop cutting due south through pine trees and soybean fields. “That’s the place up there on the left,” said Hummel. The gun store was a white one story cinderblock building 75 feet on a side, set behind a gravel parking lot. An American flag flapped softly atop a pole out front. “Freedom Arms” was painted in blue block letters across the top of the building over the front door and a pair of windows. Behind the store across a several acre sized fenced yard was the owner’s tan-colored one story ranch-style house. Pine woods bordered the fence around the yard and behind the house.

There was a jeep, a pickup truck and a motorcycle parked in front of the store; the muffled staccato popping of a handgun could be heard from within, someone practicing on the indoor range. Virginia was a “right to carry” state and many of the citizens who carried a licensed concealed handgun practiced diligently.

A heavy wrought iron burglar gate was latched back against the building, allowing access through a plate glass door. The two small windows in the front of the structure were set high and covered with iron bars, from the outside the place looked almost like a small bank.

The four federal agents got out, adjusted their jackets over their concealed pistols, and went inside. Decals from firearms and reloading supply companies were stuck all over the glass door, cowbells jingled and a chime rang when the door was opened, inside the air conditioning was refreshingly chilly. A young man, perhaps a military reservist judging by his haircut and demeanor, stood behind a long glass cased counter talking to a wiry older customer who was wearing jeans and boots and a black Harley Davidson t-shirt. Another string of shots was fired on the indoor range: pop pop pop. The young man behind the counter was wearing a holstered cocked and locked .45 Colt 1911 pistol on a wide leather belt: if trouble came looking, gun store employees were universally ready to greet it. George Hummel could not remember a single case of a gun store ever being robbed during business hours, but he never connected this remarkable fact to any larger issues involving citizens carrying firearms more generally.

The three FBI men browsed through the crowded non-firearms merchandise display areas, examining holsters, books, boxes of various calibers of ammunition and other shooting accessories, all while discretely watching Hummel handle the “compliance visit”. As would be expected, all of them were proficient with firearms; they all carried their own .40 caliber pistols in shoulder or belt holsters under their jackets. They all considered themselves shooters and bore no particular animosity toward the owners of gun stores, since they were themselves frequent customers in them. Gun stores were the ATF’s beat as far as compliance with the many federal laws went.

On one knotty pine paneled wall there was a large black and white poster of Adolf Hitler with a bullseye ring printed over him, he had his right arm raised high in a Nazi salute. Across the poster in large Germanic letters was written, “All those in favor of gun control, raise your right hand.” In smaller print was written, “After Hitler was elected Chancellor in 1933, the Nazis used existing German gun registration lists to disarm their citizens. The rest is history.”

One FBI agent pointed the poster out to his colleagues and they all chuckled. FBI agents generally looked down on their ATF cousins, referring to them as the BATF and now the BATFE. The ATF agents had a major inferiority complex and wanted to be considered a first-tier “three letter agency” like the CIA, FBI, NSA or even the DEA, INS or IRS. The BATF had spent sixty years under the Treasury Department as glorified tax collectors or “revenuers”, before most of their bureau was transferred over to the Justice Department following the homeland security reorganizations in the wake of 9-11.

With the transfer had come the new letter, the E for Explosives, and the four letter agency had become the first five letter agency. Behind their backs, BATFE agents were still called “F-Troop” by the FBI for their tendency to screw up major cases, such as the initial attack at Waco. (Not that the FBI had covered itself in glory ending the standoff.)

George Hummel went to the counter and presented his credentials: the black leather wallet containing his gold badge and laminated BATFE identification card. The conversation between the young store employee and his customer halted in mid-sentence.

“ATF: compliance check. Where’s the owner Joe Bardiwell?”

“In the back, wait one.” The employee pushed a button concealed behind the counter, in a few moments a heavy door to the back rooms of the building opened and a middle aged man wearing a leather machinist’s apron and clear safety glasses stepped out. Before the door closed a few louder shots could be heard from the range. Bardiwell had thick dark hair and a brushy mustache, and some of his customers thought he resembled Joseph Stalin or Saddam Hussein, although they would never say so out loud. To his friends, and there were many, he was just plain Joe. Besides owning the store and its indoor range, he was a highly respected and much sought after gunsmith, well known for his custom modifications to standard grade hunting rifles. His work shop and reloading room was in the back along with his office, storage rooms, and the four lane pistol range.

“ATF? And four of you today? What’s the problem? I just had a check last week and all of my books and papers were in perfect order.”

Agent Hummel already knew this, as the Norfolk ASAC he had scheduled the compliance check by the very ATF agent Bardiwell was referring to. “I see that all of your semi-auto rifles are gone,” he said, pointing to the nearly empty long gun racks behind the counters. As in most gun stores, the pistols were in glass cases beneath the counters, the rifles and shotguns were lined up in vertical racks along the back walls. “Have you turned them in, or sold them? Where are they?”

“Oh, I guess I sold just about every one of them. It’s been a busy week.”

“Sold them? All of them? Why would anybody buy a rifle that’s about to be prohibited? Did you inform the purchasers of the new law?”

Bardiwell tried not to smile. “They all know about the law. Why they want the rifles is their business, this week selling them is still perfectly legal, there’s nothing in the law which comes into effect before next Tuesday.”

“But the weapons will be illegal in five days! You’re aiding and abetting criminal activity!”

“I don’t see how. I didn’t write the law, and there’s nothing in the law about not selling them this week, not one word. Call your congressman if you don’t like the way they wrote the law.”

“But buying an assault rifle a week before they’re illegal clearly shows intent to break the law!”

“First, they’re semi-automatic rifles, not assault rifles. Assault rifles have a fully automatic capability. You know that. And I didn’t ask them about their ‘intent’. They were all qualified buyers who passed the instant background check. I just sell legal firearms to qualified buyers for a living. And this week they’re still legal.”

“Let me see your form 4473’s, let me see all your paperwork for the last week.” Hummel was asking for all of the yellow federal firearms purchase forms filled out by each purchaser, which were retained at the gun stores. Theoretically this was to prevent the information from being centrally collected, which would constitute national firearms registration. The ATF routinely collected information from the forms in the conduct of an actual criminal investigation, which was permitted. Lately they had taken to bringing in their own scanners and laptop computers and copying forms wholesale, which should not have been permitted. The “beltway sniper” case in 2002 had finally buried the pretense that the ATF could not go on wide net fishing expeditions, they had collected and culled through every 4473 in Maryland and Virginia on that case, and a new precedent had been set.

Joe Bardiwell went to his back office and returned in a minute with a stack of yellow cards. Usually an ATF agent would try to slip into the office to data mine in privacy, but Bardiwell had built a heavy hinged section into his counter to prevent his offices or storage rooms from being rushed by armed robbers, or federal agents without a warrant. The seemingly unbroken counter top served its purpose, and Hummel remained on the public side of the store. Bardiwell laid the forms on the counter top in front of the ATF agent. “The last sales are on top, they go back in order. Rifles, pistols, everything.”

George Hummel quickly flipped through the cards. “AR-15, SKS, Bushmaster, FAL, an AR-180, two Ruger Mini-14s, a Dragonov, another FAL….Jesus, you sold all of these yesterday! Do you think these guns were bought with the intention to comply with the law?”

Joe Bardiwell shrugged. “How would I know? Why should I be left with unsold inventory I paid for?”

Hummel picked up the entire inch thick stack of forms and turned to leave. Bardiwell said, “You can’t take them out of here, you know the law, those are my records, they have to stay secured in my office. You can copy pertinent information in pursuing an investigation, but you can’t take the forms out of here as long as I’m in business.” Bardiwell was making that statement for the record in front of witnesses, and knowing that his video cameras would catch the ATF agent in clear violation of the statutes if he left with the forms. It would not be above the ATF to take the forms on one day, and then arrest a firearms dealer for not having them as required by law on the next. Bardiwell’s store had two video cameras that were meant to be seen, and two more that were hidden.

“And just exactly how long do you expect to be in business Bardiwell? Maybe not as long as you think, if you’ve been selling ‘semi-automatic’ assault rifles with the intent to evade the law!” Hummel kept the stack of yellow cards and turned for the door.

The older customer, who had been at the counter watching and listening, suddenly said, “Hey Mr. BATF man, I thought there was no federal gun registration, but there you go out the door with the 4473s.” Hummel stopped and looked back at the civilian who had unexpectedly challenged him, and the man continued. “Let me ask you something Mr. BATF… excuse me, Mr. BATF-E man: after next Tuesday are you going to be kicking down those peoples’ doors? Stomping their kittens and shooting their dogs? Throwing pregnant women around causing miscarriages? Isn’t that what you do, in your black ninja suits, hiding your faces behind masks? You don’t do a damn thing about the Muslim terrorists running around loose, but you sure love busting regular Americans’ doors down, don’t you?”

George Hummel, the Norfolk ATF Assistant Special Agent in Charge, was used to receiving cringing courtesy in gun stores and was momentarily stunned into silence by the outburst. When he regained his voice he called back, “and just who the hell are you, Gomer?”

“Who the hell am I? Just somebody that was bleeding in the jungle for this country when you were in diapers, that’s who! And let me tell you, all of us, every one of us that went over there, we all took an oath to defend this country from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic, do you hear me boy? But it looks like you think it’s all fine and dandy if the lawyers up in Washington decide to tear up the Bill of Rights, that’s fine by you as long as they sign your paycheck, isn’t it?”

“Shut up you asshole, you have no idea what you’re talking about!”

“No? Well it seems like maybe it’s time to figure it all out, figure out who’s defending the constitution, and who’s pissing on it. So my question to you is this: just exactly who wants to disarm us all so bad, and why?” Long harbored thoughts were flying through the old veteran’s mind now, and he couldn’t stop his mouth from firing for effect now that he had the BATF agent in his sights in front of him. “Let me tell you, whoever wrote that damn law is either the biggest fool who ever lived, or he just flat out wants to start a civil war in this country.”

The three FBI agents looked at Hummel and the old crackpot with amusement.

“You don’t believe me? Then why’d every decent rifle in Tidewater, and probably everywhere, get bought up this week? Look around, there’s not a rifle or a rifle magazine left, and not hardly a box of rifle bullets. Now why do you think that is? To throw them all in dumpsters come next Tuesday? You federal boys better think about it real hard, and pick which side of the Constitution you’re going to stand on, because it looks like everybody else is picking the other side.”

“Put a cork in it grandpa, or we’ll arrest you for threatening federal officers!” said Hummel, trying to regain his composure and his control over the situation. Threatening arrest usually did the trick, nobody wanted to be handcuffed and taken away to jail.

“I’m way too old for you to scare me that way boy! Now the VC and the NVA, they scared me plenty back in the day, but not you, oh not hardly! And let me tell you something else: Charlie taught me a thing or two, things I ain’t never forgot! And not just me, no sir, not by a long shot!”

George Hummel turned and headed out the door red faced with anger, the FBI men trailing behind. The last FBI agent turned back around at the front door, nodded slightly, flashed a ‘thumbs up’ against his chest in the old man’s direction and shot him a wink. Then they were gone.

In the shop the ranting man’s anger immediately turned to regret. “I’m sorry Joe, I guess I really screwed up; I mean I really put you in the shit with those guys. Seeing that BATF guy hauling out your 4473s, knowing what it means, what’s going to happen to those folks now…damn. I just don’t know what’s happening in this country any more… A war’s coming, I don’t know how I know, but I feel it coming, I got the old feeling again, I can’t explain it…”

“Ah forget it Phil, you spoke the truth, you said what you felt had to be said, don’t be sorry for that.”

“I really thought they still weren’t allowed to take the 4473s out of the store.”

“They’re not, but they do what the hell they like. Especially after 9-11, and the beltway sniper, and now the stadium massacre…. They’re a law unto themselves; they just do what the hell they want. If they can say it involves national security or terrorism, they get a blank check and a free hand, no questions asked. It’s difficult times my friend, difficult times. Muslims are running around shooting people and blowing themselves up and the feds pick now to disarm honest Americans.”

“Well Joe, I’m sorry for any trouble I caused you, I really am.”

“Hey, don’t worry about it. What’s going to happen is going to happen. Don’t let ‘em drive you crazy; we’ll get through this if we stay cool.” The two men shook hands across the glass topped pistol display counter, and then the older man left the shop, mounted his Harley, fired it up and took off fast to the south.

Joe Bardiwell went back into his office and began making phone calls, he felt it was his duty to call his customers and tell them that the ATF had just pulled their 4473’s and taken them away, which was highly unusual, and indicated certain trouble. In order to avoid any ATF concocted conspiracy charge he carefully told each customer or answering machine the safe and truthful statement “the ATF just pulled your yellow form, make sure you comply with the new law and get rid of your semi-auto rifles by next Tuesday.”

In reality Bardiwell knew that virtually all of these rifles had already been “gotten rid of;” buried in watertight plastic containers or otherwise well hidden. He had heard talk of stockpiles and caches and six inch diameter PVC pipe all week long as rifles and ammo had flown off the shelves. Customers wanted to know what kind of grease or lubricant to use for long term storage, and if they should take apart weapons to relieve spring pressure. Bardiwell stayed away from talk of weapons caches and resistance, he heard it but didn’t join in it. However, in point of fact Joe Bardiwell himself had already cached a significant amount of arms and ammunition: storm clouds had been gathering for a long time and he intended to be ready for whatever came next.

Joe Bardiwell had lived until his late thirties in a predominantly Christian town in the hills east of Beirut Lebanon, and he knew better than most that if and when the storm broke the USA could quickly be divided into two classes of people: armed survivors, and disarmed victims. He had seen it and he had lived it from 1976 until 1981 when he immigrated to the United States with his American born wife, after his entire village had been ethnically and religiously cleansed by the far better-armed invading Muslim PLO. The Christians were all murdered or forced to flee, after two thousand years of their people living in the same town. He decided after leaving Lebanon and embracing freedom in the United States that he would never again under any circumstances be voluntarily disarmed.

ATF agent George Hummel was livid, slamming the heavy door of the Suburban shut behind him. “Do you see now, do you see now, the kind of shit we have to take from these stinking gun nuts every damn day in and day out? You guys saw it, those bastards hate the government, they hate us, they’re armed to the teeth, they’re crazy and they’re itching for a fight! They think their almighty Second Amendment is some kind of holy writ, something Charlton Heston brought down from the mountain like the Ten Commandments! You just cannot get it into these stupid crackers’ skulls that the only real ‘militia’ today is the National Stinking Guard! They think they’re all Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry, and we’re the damned lousy redcoats!”

After a moment of embarrassed silence in the truck one of the FBI men said “Well, uh, George, it looks like at least you won’t have to go all the way to Idaho to find the militias. It looks like you’ve got them all over your backyard these days”

“You’ve got that right. Not just here, not just Idaho, it’s everywhere; right wing loonie tunes have been stockpiling guns and ammo like you wouldn’t believe. If you saw the amount of 5.56 and 7.62 that’s been getting bought wholesale every month you wouldn’t believe it. These gun nuts, they don’t buy a hundred rounds at a time any more, they buy a thousand, they buy ten thousand, they buy it by the case in sealed ‘battle packs’, I kid you not! But we’ve got some tricks up our sleeves they haven’t thought of, believe you me! They talk about resisting, they talk about a fight, well…they’ll see. And they call us ‘jack booted thugs’! We’ll show them our jackboots, right in their damned teeth!” Hummel was banging his fist on the door ledge by the window as he shouted.

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:22:52 PM EDT

[#6]

Does this mean no more 1919A4 parts kits?

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:25:10 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Take a G3 kit for example. They will have to remove the cocking tube, triple frame, FH, and trunion from the barrel before they can import them. Those man hours will only aid in driving the cost up. They you have the whole issue of finding a barrel, which will dry up fast as people start to get wind of this.

what remove? they will just cut the barrel before the trunion, and just behind the cocking tube, and in front of it, and chuck that part of the barrel away, leaving you with a stub in the trunion and a small chunk of barrel with the FH, and a small chuck still attached to the cocking tube/front sight.........they are not going to remove the entire barrel as one piece, and then carefully take off the cocking tube. front sight and FH.

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:27:50 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Didn't read it because it doesn't matter how they interpret the law or determine its meaning to be because there job it to enforce it. It's a judges job to interpret.

You want to be the first one to test them in court?

they don't use the courts, they just burn their victims alive.

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:37:47 PM EDT

[#9]

tag

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:38:43 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Take a G3 kit for example. They will have to remove the cocking tube, triple frame, FH, and trunion from the barrel before they can import them. Those man hours will only aid in driving the cost up. They you have the whole issue of finding a barrel, which will dry up fast as people start to get wind of this.

what remove? they will just cut the barrel before the trunion, and just behind the cocking tube, and in front of it, and chuck that part of the barrel away, leaving you with a stub in the trunion and a small chunk of barrel with the FH, and a small chuck still attached to the cocking tube/front sight.........they are not going to remove the entire barrel as one piece, and then carefully take off the cocking tube. front sight and FH.

Good call.
Thanks for the correction

Just ad the trunion to the list of stuff that you will get US made

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:43:18 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Didn't read it because it doesn't matter how they interpret the law or determine its meaning to be because there job it to enforce it. It's a judges job to interpret.

You want to be the first one to test them in court?

they don't use the courts, they just burn their victims alive.

Thanks George Bush & Gonzales! You guys are a couple of duplicitous assclowns.

And where is the NRA and GOA on this and the sporting purposes issue? Nowhere. Zip. Nada. Silence.

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:46:24 PM EDT

[#12]

So I guess DSA is going out of bussiness...I guess American made Steyr AUGs are out the window too...

Alchol Tobaco and Firearms should be a convinence store not an agency.

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:49:09 PM EDT

[#13]

What does this mean for CMP M1 Garand imports?

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:51:24 PM EDT

[#14]

i dont think 1919's where banned in 1989. why would 1919 parts be restricted??
i dont think 1919's where even considerd under the '''sporting rifle clause'''.

maybe im wrong??

Posted: 7/13/2005 1:55:53 PM EDT

[#15]

Yep, didnt pass the AWB renewal to keep the 2nd Amendment people off our backs but here is a bone to throw to the anti gun crowd..............Thanks alot ATF

Quoted:
See how easy that backdoor AWB was?
Fight tooth and nail for 10 years and the goobs can nullify that with a reinterpretation.

Posted: 7/13/2005 2:08:56 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
What does this mean for CMP M1 Garand imports?

The CMP has probably gotten back all they are ever going to get. Anyways the ones they are getting back are not really imports. They where just loaned out by the United States Army. Plus there are no evil features on the Garand.

Posted: 7/13/2005 2:20:12 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
What does this mean for CMP M1 Garand imports?

it means nothing........those are rifles that were loaned to different gov't from our gov't, and they are just being returned back to the US gov't.........they don't fall under any importation rules.

Posted: 7/13/2005 2:22:57 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Good call.
Thanks for the correction

Just ad the trunion to the list of stuff that you will get US made

although I'm not 100 percent sure........you can unpin and press out what is left of the barrel from the trunion, and install a new barrel..........sort of like on a AK.

Posted: 7/13/2005 2:25:30 PM EDT

[#19]

Guess I cant order my AK anymore....why is there even an ATF--- Alcohol=Legal, Tobacco=Legal,Fire Arms= Legal and guaranteed by 2ND...I understand maybe to enforce importation and street selling of illegal firearms to certain scumbags, but 2/3 of their whole beuacracy is pointless...dont we have enough other beuracratic agencies to stick their noses in everyone's business...i mean dont the beuracrats have enough power already

Posted: 7/13/2005 2:33:48 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Guess I cant order my AK anymore....why is there even an ATF--- Alcohol=Legal, Tobacco=Legal,Fire Arms= Legal and guaranteed by 2ND...I understand maybe to enforce importation and street selling of illegal firearms to certain scumbags, but 2/3 of their whole beuacracy is pointless...dont we have enough other beuracratic agencies to stick their noses in everyone's business...i mean dont the beuracrats have enough power already

They were part of the IRS for a lot of years.

Posted: 7/13/2005 2:39:18 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Guess I cant order my AK anymore....

you still have time to buy as many kits as you can afford, there are some place that haven't raised their prices on kits.......yet. the cease of all importation with barrels does not take effect until 60 days from yesterday.........I'm sure there will be plenty of uncut barrel kits even after that.........but the prices will dramatically be up there for them.

I was going to sell off my bulgarian AKS-74U kit I have, but now that this is no longer a rumor, I'm keeping it as a spare for my SBR 74U. I doubt there will be a barrel maker that will be competent enough to make a AK barrel to the same specs as the originals..........they haven't been able to make a receiver and all that is some bent sheet metal, there are plenty people making those, but none of them are even close to what the original are........or even able to make simple things like a trigger group, without fucking that up.

Posted: 7/13/2005 2:43:30 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Didn't read it because it doesn't matter how they interpret the law or determine its meaning to be because there job it to enforce it. It's a judges job to interpret.

You want to be the first one to test them in court?

they don't use the courts, they just burn their victims alive.

Thanks George Bush & Gonzales! You guys are a couple of duplicitous assclowns.

And where is the NRA and GOA on this and the sporting purposes issue? Nowhere. Zip. Nada. Silence.

You just answered your own question. Who controls the legislative agenda? The Republicans and Bush. Since Bush has no problem screwing over the gun owners who re-elected him how is the NRA, GOA, or any other lobby group who can at most only influence the issues the Republicans want to bring forward going to force those in control to bring up an issue they don't want? Even if all 4 million NRA members called and demanded action there was what 50 million votes for Bush. That means Even if every NRA member was counted we only make up 8% of the voters. That 8% isn't enough to get the Republicans or Bush to bring up an issue they don't want to touch. That 8% is enough to sway votes one way or another when it comes time to vote but until that point the lobbists don't have much pull at all.

Posted: 7/13/2005 2:55:36 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Didn't read it because it doesn't matter how they interpret the law or determine its meaning to be because there job it to enforce it. It's a judges job to interpret.

You want to be the first one to test them in court?

they don't use the courts, they just burn their victims alive.

Thanks George Bush & Gonzales! You guys are a couple of duplicitous assclowns.

And where is the NRA and GOA on this and the sporting purposes issue? Nowhere. Zip. Nada. Silence.

You just answered your own question. Who controls the legislative agenda? The Republicans and Bush. Since Bush has no problem screwing over the gun owners who re-elected him how is the NRA, GOA, or any other lobby group who can at most only influence the issues the Republicans want to bring forward going to force those in control to bring up an issue they don't want? Even if all 4 million NRA members called and demanded action there was what 50 million votes for Bush. That means Even if every NRA member was counted we only make up 8% of the voters. That 8% isn't enough to get the Republicans or Bush to bring up an issue they don't want to touch. That 8% is enough to sway votes one way or another when it comes time to vote but until that point the lobbists don't have much pull at all.

Maybe. But a swing of one million voters last election would have been enough. Instead of being humbled by the support we showed I think the last election made Bush cocky. No more two term Presidents.

Like father like son. He's a new england gun grabber just like his old man.

Posted: 7/13/2005 2:58:17 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
wrong agency. the batfe are the political brownshirts of the democrat party...

Last time I checked, the Democrats weren't the ones in power...

Posted: 7/13/2005 3:04:35 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Good call.
Thanks for the correction

Just ad the trunion to the list of stuff that you will get US made

although I'm not 100 percent sure........you can unpin and press out what is left of the barrel from the trunion, and install a new barrel..........sort of like on a AK.

Yes you can, but its out of the range of most hobby builders. Also will they include the peices? WHo knows?
CH

Posted: 7/13/2005 3:04:50 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
wrong agency. the batfe are the political brownshirts of the democrat party...

Last time I checked, the Democrats weren't the ones in power...

ya, doesn't the ATF report to GWB?

Posted: 7/13/2005 3:05:12 PM EDT

[#27]

Reading the BATFE letter, I am questioning how sporting purpose is defined?
Is there some specific reg that lays out which features are sporting or non?

If not, most laws written thusly are easily struck down as being exceedingly vague.

Where is NRA now?

And I'll take one more chance to slam Attorney General Gonzalez and warn people what to expcet should he ever make it to SCROTUS.

Posted: 7/13/2005 3:07:53 PM EDT

[#28]

is it possible that this interpretation could just cause some companys, importers, builders, etc. to just throw in the towel? how many jobs would we be talking?

Posted: 7/13/2005 3:11:20 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Reading the BATFE letter, I am questioning how sporting purpose is defined?
Is there some specific reg that lays out which features are sporting or non?

If not, most laws written thusly are easily struck down as being exceedingly vague.

Where is NRA now?

And I'll take one more chance to slam Attorney General Gonzalez and warn people what to expcet should he ever make it to SCROTUS.

Hey, it doesn't involve banning firearms used for sporting purposes, therefore the NRA doesn't give a rat's ass. If it infringed on the NRA's right to use firearms for the sole purpose of sporting and hunting (you know, how the 2nd amendment is all about hunting deer), they'd be all over it.

Posted: 7/13/2005 3:17:44 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
[. So when you now get a parts kit it will be minus the receiver AND barrel. Woop-dee-do! most milsurp barrels are rust tubes anyway!

those so call "rust tubes" you say, will probably be more better then the US barrels that will be coming out.......apparently you never had a rifle built on US made receivers of foreign design, AK, FAL etc..........not one company can even make those correctly or of the right material. what makes you think they will be able to make a true replacement barrel with the right .310 barrel, for a AK. man they can't even make a decent AK trigger group that doesn't cost 100 bucks.

What a rube!

Posted: 7/13/2005 3:18:18 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Reading the BATFE letter, I am questioning how sporting purpose is defined?
Is there some specific reg that lays out which features are sporting or non?

I don't remember the exact wording but it used to be defined as the the Secretary of the Treasury would make the determination of what meant a sporting purpose. Back in 1996 I think it was I remember Clinton speaking at a press conference saying he had instructed the Secretary to review a list of certain firearms to determine if they met the "sporting purpose clause". This was back when thumbhole stocks were being put on rifles to get around the "pistol grip" restriction. Under that directive that whole class of firearms was banned from import...again. That's when the manufactures started putting enough US parts on them so they would be considered US Made firearms.

Where is NRA now?

Give them a week and there should be something that comes out in their weekly email.

Posted: 7/13/2005 3:22:34 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Reading the BATFE letter, I am questioning how sporting purpose is defined?
Is there some specific reg that lays out which features are sporting or non?

If not, most laws written thusly are easily struck down as being exceedingly vague.

Where is NRA now?

And I'll take one more chance to slam Attorney General Gonzalez and warn people what to expcet should he ever make it to SCROTUS.

Hey, it doesn't involve banning firearms used for sporting purposes, therefore the NRA doesn't give a rat's ass. If it infringed on the NRA's right to use firearms for the sole purpose of sporting and hunting (you know, how the 2nd amendment is all about hunting deer), they'd be all over it.

I disagree. the NRA has failed to help us out more than a few times but they did stick with the program to help sunset the AW Ban.

Quoted:

Like father like son. He's a new england gun grabber just like his old man.

Yup. Bush Sr's penstroke in 1989 was all about AKs also. Same here.
He's just like his old man for sure.

Posted: 7/13/2005 3:24:33 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Reading the BATFE letter, I am questioning how sporting purpose is defined?
Is there some specific reg that lays out which features are sporting or non?

I don't remember the exact wording but it used to be defined as the the Secretary of the Treasury would make the determination of what meant a sporting purpose. Back in 1996 I think it was I remember Clinton speaking at a press conference saying he had instructed the Secretary to review a list of certain firearms to determine if they met the "sporting purpose clause". This was back when thumbhole stocks were being put on rifles to get around the "pistol grip" restriction. Under that directive that whole class of firearms was banned from import...again. That's when the manufactures started putting enough US parts on them so they would be considered US Made firearms.

Point is that the original law, as written, is quite vague.
Time to go after these laws. After we get some decent people on SCROTUS. That wouldn't incl Gonzalez IMO.

Posted: 7/13/2005 3:45:45 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Reading the BATFE letter, I am questioning how sporting purpose is defined?
Is there some specific reg that lays out which features are sporting or non?

I don't remember the exact wording but it used to be defined as the the Secretary of the Treasury would make the determination of what meant a sporting purpose. Back in 1996 I think it was I remember Clinton speaking at a press conference saying he had instructed the Secretary to review a list of certain firearms to determine if they met the "sporting purpose clause". This was back when thumbhole stocks were being put on rifles to get around the "pistol grip" restriction. Under that directive that whole class of firearms was banned from import...again. That's when the manufactures started putting enough US parts on them so they would be considered US Made firearms.

Point is that the original law, as written, is quite vague.
Time to go after these laws. After we get some decent people on SCROTUS. That wouldn't incl Gonzalez IMO.

Vague descriptive legal language is most probably by design, & forshadows future 'intepretation' at more appropriate times, like the present.

Bush is like his daddy - milquetoast. He's only proving that fruit falls nea far from the tree. No one should be surprised. His "friend" is screwing w/ the 2nd because his big brother is on the DC SWAT team, & so his "interpretation" is colored by emotion. There is no rational discussion to be had w/ such a mindset. This liberal turn by Bush Jr. is going to screw the chances of a Republican candidate in the next election cycle. Keep it up, & core voters will just say "screw it" & not participate.

Scuttle that SCOTUS nomination.

Posted: 7/13/2005 4:10:01 PM EDT

[#35]

I get the feeling Ruger is very happy about this...just like the BS Sr. said in the past...

At least we have ARs...but this is still just more JBT BS...

Posted: 7/13/2005 4:28:13 PM EDT

[#36]

CMP rifles are used in recognized "sport" shooting.

Anyone know if CMP would consider a "other military arms" class of competition?

Posted: 7/13/2005 4:38:17 PM EDT

[#37]

No more Imbel Fal receivers or barrels.This is complete and utter bullshit!!!!

Posted: 7/13/2005 4:42:25 PM EDT

[#38]

With a pick like Gonzalez I can't wait to see who fills the vacancies in the, ahem, SCROTUM

Posted: 7/13/2005 4:48:43 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

The "statutory language" does not list "repair or replacement" so what this letter is saying is that the exemption which was previously used is no long valid. They are slamming the door shut on all foreign barrels and recievers of "non-sporting" firearms.

Here is 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3)
(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a
firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue
Code of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable
for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus
military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General
has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to
this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame,
receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if
assembled

I have a MAK-90 Sportster. Can I still get parts?

Posted: 7/13/2005 4:54:14 PM EDT

[#40]

didnt have any plans, but read this earlier and went out and bought two ak's today, and will buy a lot more, didnt plan to but thanks atf guys for kicking me in the ass and waking me up.

Posted: 7/13/2005 4:55:52 PM EDT

[#41]

Republicans/Democrats = Same Shit/Different Stink.

myitinaw

Posted: 7/13/2005 4:58:27 PM EDT

[#42]

tag.

ARs next.

Posted: 7/13/2005 5:11:35 PM EDT

[#43]

I find it funny how HR 1703 came about so suddenly before this. If you buy a complete gun, the govenrment gets more money than if you buy a kit. Hopefully this is a temporary set up, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

The really sad thing is how many companies this has the potential to put out of business. This is a really hard hit and it's the business's that I'm worrying about. It's horrible on us civilians, but think of what's to come for some of the companies and employees.

Posted: 7/13/2005 5:11:52 PM EDT

[#44]

Is the water boiling yet?

Posted: 7/13/2005 5:14:16 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
didnt have any plans, but read this earlier and went out and bought two ak's today, and will buy a lot more, didnt plan to but thanks atf guys for kicking me in the ass and waking me up.

Don't freak out just yet. The manufacters always seem to find a way around things...such as the WASR-10 rifles which are then modified in the US to be high caps. But if you were planning on building your own out of quality parts I would definately move to secure those parts now.

Posted: 7/13/2005 5:14:56 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Is the water boiling yet?

Don't worry, be happy!

Posted: 7/13/2005 5:15:46 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:

The "statutory language" does not list "repair or replacement" so what this letter is saying is that the exemption which was previously used is no long valid. They are slamming the door shut on all foreign barrels and recievers of "non-sporting" firearms.

Here is 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3)
(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a
firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue
Code of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable
for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus
military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General
has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to
this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame,
receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if
assembled

I have a MAK-90 Sportster. Can I still get parts?

You can still get parts. The only thing this affects is the barrel and the receiver. I'm guessing it would still be cheaper to buy a new AK than try to replace a barrel.

Posted: 7/13/2005 5:18:38 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

The "statutory language" does not list "repair or replacement" so what this letter is saying is that the exemption which was previously used is no long valid. They are slamming the door shut on all foreign barrels and recievers of "non-sporting" firearms.

Here is 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3)
(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a
firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue
Code of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable
for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus
military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General
has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to
this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame,
receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if
assembled

I have a MAK-90 Sportster. Can I still get parts?

You can still get parts. The only thing this affects is the barrel and the receiver. I'm guessing it would still be cheaper to buy a new AK than try to replace a barrel.

My point is that I own Sportster rifle. Designed to take 5 round mags. As intended it should be a sporting gun. Meaning it's barrel should be importable.... I'm seeing a loophole here.

Posted: 7/13/2005 6:00:54 PM EDT

[#49]

I'm absolutely dismayed at how quickly so many guns have been erased from ever being able to be bought at a reasonable price ever again.

So many businesses are going to go the way of the dinosaur because of this. Century Arms is going to sell whatever they have left and then go under, DSA is done for. Builders such as ORF and InRange are going to lose tons of business because not everyone will be able to afford kits that will go through the roof in price.

Yes, some company will surely start turning out their own AK barrels and what not, but even with 5-6 USA parts on a kit already, when does the gun stop being close to an original and becomes just a full on clone.

10 years of AWB crap, it sunsets, and in one quick "reinterpretation", we mine as well be back in time to mid-September 1994

FUCK THE ATF!

Posted: 7/13/2005 6:04:29 PM EDT

[#50]

Don't forget Arsenal and Vector. VEPR's are built on imported receivers IIRC also. All of the HK clone companies too.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ATF changes the rules again! (Page 2 of 4)

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