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Posted: 7/10/2001 4:30:27 PM EDT
Suppose you were attacked by a couple losers while you were returning to your car at night in the city. As they attempt to beat you senseless with unknown weapons, you manage to access your small caliber carry gun and shoot them, which results in both of them lying wounded on the sidewalk. It does not appear that any one was around to witness the incident. Mindful of the possible repercussions, would you call 911 and wait to tell the cops your story, or would you be tempted to double time it to your car parked one block away and disappear?
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 4:34:50 PM EDT
It would depend. If I was in a state that recognized my right to carry (reciprocity and all that) I would definely call 911 and wait. Now if I was somewhere that only allows criminals to carry (DC, Chicago, NYC, LA, etc) and this happened, I would beat feet outta there. Mind you, I would never carry in a 'no self defense allowed' zone.
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 4:35:17 PM EDT
leave em for dead, that's what they would do to you. remeber: finish the job a dead criminal cannot testify against you.
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 4:36:59 PM EDT
Leave and never look back.
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 4:38:00 PM EDT
I would stay. All I would tell the police is, "I was mugged, I feared for my life. I want my lawyer."
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 4:38:37 PM EDT
Nowadays, with all the ballistic fingerprinting, fancy investigative techniques, [b]and[/b] two individuals who'd love to see you get screwed over, I'd [u]definitely[/u] stay and call the police. In addition, while those two scumbags probably deserve worse, I'm [i]not[/i] going to leave them for dead on the street. It just ain't right. Mike
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 4:38:54 PM EDT
I would definately stay, or if I did leave it would only to be to make it to a phone to call the police/ambulance/meat wagon. Fleeing the scene of anything only makes you look guilty of something. I would stay and take any consequences. Whether the perpetrators live or die from their wounds would be of little consequence to me. I hold a CHL and would have been using it lawfully. If need be I would simply explain to the jury that I was guilty of protecting my own life. We still get to do that here in Texas. Michael
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 4:51:28 PM EDT
What if you stay and the perp's attornies tell the cops that the wrench and the hammer and the screwdriver found at the scene was just these poor fellow's work tools and this gun carrying madman shot them for no good cause?
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:00:38 PM EDT
It is in your best interest to stay and call the LEO's and PM's. You will be on the news and become a heroic example for CCW. Your friends will pat you on your back and buy you beer. Your enemies will tremble in fear when they see you and do some major sucking up.
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:00:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mole Eye: What if you stay and the perp's attornies tell the cops that the wrench and the hammer and the screwdriver found at the scene was just these poor fellow's work tools and this gun carrying madman shot them for no good cause?
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Well, since they had just attempted to "beat me senseless" per your original post, I would assume that there would be plenty of cuts and bruises to corroborate my story to the police. There could be a million what if's and second guessing, but plainly put, I would shoot them until they dropped and then contact the authorities. Also, usually people who are out doing this type of activity aren't doing it for the first time so their criminal record and my own spotless one would make it look just that much worse for them in the eyes of a prosecutor/jury. Michael
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:06:54 PM EDT
I'd finish the job, then check into some shooting lessons. A wounded criminal is a benefit to no one. They would have killed you given the chance...now they will probably live to testify against you and soon walk the streets and do harm to some other poor slob.
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:11:24 PM EDT
by reading this post people should get a good feel between how it is to live in a big liberal city & a more rural conservative town. both mentally & laws are different. BUT THE ANSWERS ARE RIGHT FOR BOTH SIDES. just depends where you've grown-up at
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:13:23 PM EDT
First of all. Avoid the situation before it gets to that point. As ccw holders you are suppose to use your gun as a last resort. So if you had a chance to run you will be tried in most places. Especially in the liberal places like NY,DC and so on. most of the time if you showed the perp your gun and he only had a tire iron he would flee. Becareful when you pull your weapon. It has to be a last resort. You actually have to prove that you made a good and strong effort to get away. If you were smacked a few times with the tire iron then you told the jury that if I didn't shoot him I would have been dead. Then they might believe you. Look at bernie goetz. Aquited on attempted murder but guilty on CCW. Go figure. 3 guys with big screw drivers and a record as long as you could imagine and he still went to jail for something. It's a bad world and CCW doesn't help all the time. I believe in the right of CCW but the world we live in, with the laws on the books BECAREFUL. Do you know in NY if someone breaks into your home you have to make every effort to flee from him before you shoot him. He better have a weapon in his hands also. NY is a bad state. Now Florida has the castle law. In your place of business or home you don't have to retreat you can stand your ground and defend your home/business. Cause of the world we live in: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advise.
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:13:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pikepole: I'd finish the job, then check into some shooting lessons. A wounded criminal is a benefit to no one. They would have killed you given the chance...now they will probably live to testify against you and soon walk the streets and do harm to some other poor slob.
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Most of us would like to do the same thing, but if you continue to fire after the threat has ceased, then you can be charged with murder. At least here in Texas anyways. Any authority on personal defense will tell you that when questioned by the authorities after the incident to simply tell them that you shot to stop the threat, never tell them that you shot to kill. It will be used against you later. If you simply tried to defend yourself and the perp died as a result then its just too bad, so sad. I consider myself a pretty good shot, but I still carry 17rds in my Glock. If I thought I could kill anyone I needed to with one shot then I might not buy hi-caps. You can make good shots and the person still live, so this situation is something that some of us may actually have to face some day. Michael
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:14:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE: It is in your best interest to stay and call the LEO's and PM's. You will be on the news and become a heroic example for CCW. Your friends will pat you on your back and buy you beer. Your enemies will tremble in fear when they see you and do some major sucking up.
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Hangfire, don't you ever read the St. Petersburg Times in Port Richie? No gun heroes in the Times..[B)]
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:22:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lougotzz: First of all. Avoid the situation before it gets to that point. As ccw holders you are suppose to use your gun as a last resort. --not necessairly...If I were walking to my car and a couple of guys I did not see came up behind me and started hitting me with crowbars, my first action would be to draw and if they did not retreat I would open up. In Texas deadly force (crowbars) can be resisted with deadly force (Glock). So if you had a chance to run you will be tried in most places. Especially in the liberal places like NY,DC and so on. --True, but not in many of the other free states. most of the time if you showed the perp your gun and he only had a tire iron he would flee. Becareful when you pull your weapon. It has to be a last resort. You actually have to prove that you made a good and strong effort to get away. --Not in Texas, see above. If you were smacked a few times with the tire iron then you told the jury that if I didn't shoot him I would have been dead. Then they might believe you. Look at bernie goetz. Aquited on attempted murder but guilty on CCW. Go figure. 3 guys with big screw drivers and a record as long as you could imagine and he still went to jail for something. It's a bad world and CCW doesn't help all the time. I believe in the right of CCW but the world we live in, with the laws on the books BECAREFUL. Do you know in NY if someone breaks into your home you have to make every effort to flee from him before you shoot him. He better have a weapon in his hands also. NY is a bad state. Now Florida has the castle law. In your place of business or home you don't have to retreat you can stand your ground and defend your home/business. --Florida is much the same as Texas...You break into my house I WILL shoot you and ask questions later. Cause of the world we live in: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advise. --True, all states have different laws. That is why I am going only by Texas state laws. Though, even in another state I would still do the same thing. Its always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 no matter what state you live in. Michael
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:33:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mole Eye:
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE: It is in your best interest to stay and call the LEO's and PM's. You will be on the news and become a heroic example for CCP. Your friends will pat you on your back and buy you beer. Your enemies will tremble in fear when they see you and do some major sucking up.
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Hangfire, don't you ever read the St. Petersburg Times in Port Richey? No gun heroes in the Times..[B)]
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Do you remember the Ybor bartender that got jumped by four out of towners after closing up the bar a year or so ago? Do you recall if he had a CCP? That incident motivated more than a few to get their CCP. John Lott states that many crimes are prevented by the victim having a gun. I think that letting the LEO's know that you were legally defending yourself is positive as opposed to letting the LEO's think that there is a criminal walking around shooting people. I am sure people have walked away from a scenario like you have proposed. And yes I read that KOMMIE ANTIGUN RAG.
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:38:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 5:39:11 PM EDT
If you leave and aren't caught or come under suspect,you will allways be in fear of it coming back to you.Every time the phone rings,the door bell rings,seeing a cop,hearing a siren.You will never live in peace with the thought in the back of your mind that they may find out that it was you.Play it safe and do the right thing.
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 7:03:12 PM EDT
Call a lawyer first and 911 second.
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 7:11:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 7:18:48 PM EDT
First comment: I NEVER carry a "small caliber carry gun." A full-size 1911 Govt. model .45acp is quite concealable and comfortable. As Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch always says, "A carry gun is NOT supposed to be comfortable...it's supposed to be COMFORTING!" and "When it comes to busting caps to save your life, you'll be thinking 'Why don't they make a bigger gun'!" FOLLOW THE LAW! You are required to stay...or at least, go talk to the Police. If you were legally carrying and were attacked...you HELP YOURSELF by talking with the police because why would a guilty man do that on his own initiative? "I was in fear for my life!!!" Now, I might leave immediately in case their buddies in the getaway car down the alley come looking for them, but I would get to the nearest and safest phone to call the police and either have them pick me up or drive straight to the station myself (with lawyer in tow).
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 7:23:31 PM EDT
If you were in Chicago, you would run. Even if you killed a SOB that shot a cop in the face with his own gun, then ran him over, then got out again, and shot him, etc. They would still charge you with a crime in that city. Then you would go to cook county jail. [sex] No way. Outside of cook, I would stick around, and ask for a lawyer. C-rock www.illinois-shooter.org
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 7:30:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2001 7:31:31 PM EDT by EricTheHun]
I would probably leave the scene rapidly. There is no reason to have your life disrupted by being the Defendant in a wrongful death suit filed by the parents, widows, whatever, of the dead perps. Nor do I want any of the deceased's family members looking me up when they get out of prison, awaken from their drunken stupor, or simply do their own research, and find out who I am. If the perps were REALLY bad dudes, I doubt the local constabulary will spend a great deal of time investigating the incident. With their weapons lying next to them, I think the Police can pretty much figure out what happened, and that they deserved that fitting punishment. Edited to mention that I would DESTROY the weapon! I mean utterly destroy it. Eric The(CouldBeAMistake)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 8:10:19 PM EDT
I am with you Eric The Hun, The old sensible law abiding citizen way of doing things don't apply anymore, thanks mostly to unscrupulous lawyers. If you knew you did the right thing you should be able to sleep fine. Who is going to protect you and how about your family members while you are at work, screw em? We didn't create the present joke of justice system, that makes the victim the bad guy, and I don't play by two different sets of rules, they want jungle warfare, they got it. I always carry a revolver, no shell casings to find. Can you imagine your chances of being exonerated in a liberal bastion of democrats, give me a break?
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 8:21:06 PM EDT
1.) Scout the scene for witnesses 2.) Upon finding no witnesses, recall how many shots you fired and scour the area for your brass. 3.) Bullet between the eyes - dead criminals can't testify against you, and don't eat up your tax dollars in jail. 4.) If you're bleeding from any wounds taken, clean any blood from the scene. If blood CANNOT be removed, call police and 911. If blood can successfully be removed completely - the accident can be called 'gang related' if they are already convicted criminals. 5.) Reload your weapon, stick it in your glovebox, and get the hell out of Dodge. [brown]Evil Jewbroni~[/brown]
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 8:39:19 PM EDT
Stay if it were considered safe to do so.
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 11:01:53 PM EDT
i refuse to answer incase i am involved in a simaler situation
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 3:12:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NYshooter: leave em for dead, that's what they would do to you. remeber: finish the job a dead criminal cannot testify against you.
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Nor can they sue you!
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 4:11:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jewbroni: 1.) Scout the scene for witnesses 2.) Upon finding no witnesses, recall how many shots you fired and scour the area for your brass. 3.) Bullet between the eyes - dead criminals can't testify against you, and don't eat up your tax dollars in jail. 4.) If you're bleeding from any wounds taken, clean any blood from the scene. If blood CANNOT be removed, call police and 911. If blood can successfully be removed completely - the accident can be called 'gang related' if they are already convicted criminals. 5.) Reload your weapon, stick it in your glovebox, and get the hell out of Dodge. [brown]Evil Jewbroni~[/brown]
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Ya you should also pull up a card table and eat dinner there. You might be hungry after the fact. Situation is tiring. Why not, you have all the time in the world.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 5:06:12 AM EDT
I like that.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:03:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: I would probably leave the scene rapidly. There is no reason to have your life disrupted by being the Defendant in a wrongful death suit filed by the parents, widows, whatever, of the dead perps. Nor do I want any of the deceased's family members looking me up when they get out of prison, awaken from their drunken stupor, or simply do their own research, and find out who I am. If the perps were REALLY bad dudes, I doubt the local constabulary will spend a great deal of time investigating the incident. With their weapons lying next to them, I think the Police can pretty much figure out what happened, and that they deserved that fitting punishment. Edited to mention that I would DESTROY the weapon! I mean utterly destroy it.
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This is the best advice given in this thread. As for the perps, they probably have lengthy arrest records and most reasonable people are going to agree that "what goes around, comes around."
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:15:01 AM EDT
Given that this happened in a real situation you would have no way of knowing there were no witnesses. To leave without calling police would get yourself in a world of trouble. Best bet as mentioned is don't let yourself get in a situation like that.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 6:50:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jewbroni: 1.) Scout the scene for witnesses 2.) Upon finding no witnesses, recall how many shots you fired and scour the area for your brass. 3.) Bullet between the eyes - dead criminals can't testify against you, and don't eat up your tax dollars in jail. 4.) If you're bleeding from any wounds taken, clean any blood from the scene. If blood CANNOT be removed, call police and 911. If blood can successfully be removed completely - the accident can be called 'gang related' if they are already convicted criminals. 5.) Reload your weapon, stick it in your glovebox, and get the hell out of Dodge. [brown]Evil Jewbroni~[/brown]
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I agree with you on several points. But cleaning blood will take way too long (it is a bitch, trust me). Also the “bullet between the eyes” is a great idea, but it will just cause more noise. Use your tactical folder – messy, but quieter and just as efficient. Tyler
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:02:48 AM EDT
At the risk of sounding cowardly, I'm tending toward the "Run like hell and never look back" side due to the near certainty of legal hassles I'd have due to the oppressive carry laws here in the Occupied California Republic. Unless you have a concealed carry permit, it can be very difficult to justify having a firearm sufficiently ready for self-defense use unless you happen to be in your house or at a range. OTOH CA state law does have a provision to let you off with a misdemeanor on a first offense, especially if your use of the gun showed a de facto need to have one. Prosecutors have the OPTION of letting a shooter off without any criminal charges, OTOOH but neither form of slack is guaranteed. IOW I could be charged with any of several felony weapons possession or use charges. OTOOOH running away from a shooting scene is very bad juju too. My decision would depend on the exact circumstances, of course.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 7:08:16 AM EDT
I would abduct the criminals and take them back to my house to torture them until they were dead.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 11:23:04 AM EDT
IF I were looking to avoid problems by fleeing the scene, I wouldn't worry about leaving shell casings, since the gun would soon be history. I would worry about whether my fingerprints were on any casings left behind, though. Good idea to insure there are no prints on them while loading. BTW, has anyone heard of a CCW being used against a person in court, as in "he must have been looking for trouble or he wouldn't even have one"? Sort of like the advice to not use handloaded ammo since it could be twisted by a slippery attorney and used against you.
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 12:30:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 12:27:53 PM EDT by Jewbroni]
Originally Posted By tylerdurden1201:
Originally Posted By Jewbroni: 1.) Scout the scene for witnesses 2.) Upon finding no witnesses, recall how many shots you fired and scour the area for your brass. 3.) Bullet between the eyes - dead criminals can't testify against you, and don't eat up your tax dollars in jail. 4.) If you're bleeding from any wounds taken, clean any blood from the scene. If blood CANNOT be removed, call police and 911. If blood can successfully be removed completely - the accident can be called 'gang related' if they are already convicted criminals. 5.) Reload your weapon, stick it in your glovebox, and get the hell out of Dodge. [brown]Evil Jewbroni~[/brown]
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I agree with you on several points. But cleaning blood will take way too long (it is a bitch, trust me). Also the “bullet between the eyes” is a great idea, but it will just cause more noise. Use your tactical folder – messy, but quieter and just as efficient. Tyler
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Eh, knives cost upwards of $20. Two more pieces of loaded ammunition only put me out around $.40 or so. You do the math. Actually the 'cleaning' of the blood should have been referring to things such as clothing. If any of YOUR blood gets on THEIR clothing, might as well wait for the 5-0. If you're uninjured, or you can get out a drop or two from something not left on the scene, then you can still get the heck out. If there's blood on the victims, grass, pavement, etc...you're stuck with the cops. Hey, at least that way you'll make the news in a headline of [b]"Local citizen arms himself against deadly assailants"[/b]. Of course, knowing our media sources it would more likely read [b]"Pistol-toting vigilante murders two lower-class streetgoers"[/b]. [brown]Evil J~[/brown]
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