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Posted: 7/2/2001 2:38:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2001 2:38:26 AM EDT by uglygun]
Every so often I run into a couple of real idiots on the web, they almost always turn out to be goddamned europeans. [url]http://www.df3.net/showthread.php?s=42036149aa5067778a5b9f7408dbec34&threadid=28582[/url] The link above is of a Swede who insists on trying to make gun owners out to be the reason behind why we have violent crime in this country. They just drive me nuts, it's like the one last thing they have to hold onto or hold above the heads of the US. They have lower crime rates than we do and all they can say is, "It's cause you yanks love guns too much, you're all wackos" when they simply refuse to recognize the actual fact of the matter and see that for whatever reason there is a huge difference between the social attitudes of european countries and the social attitude of those here in the US. Nope, it's gotta be those damned guns! They insist on taking a better than thou attitude and suggesting that the way to our salvation is for us to follow them in sweeping gun legislation reform. Now granted the forum in which this discussion takes place is called the "flaming and bashing" forum, but still it's enough to really get a rise out of me. I try to argue with the sons of bitches and not resort to name calling like they generally tend to do but after a few pages of responses I tend to start to lose my cool. I'm to that point now, I've about have my fill of one of the assholes on that site so I'm turning it over to any of you if you should happen to want to give it a try. Yes, I go by the same nickname over there on that site. And also, for the love of god don't make mention of this site as I think this asshole would come over here just to troll around indefinitely. I suggest only looking at that site if you feel up for a fight and have a lot to say about the issue or in response to the two morons on that board who think their opinions are "common sense" oriented.
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 4:09:46 AM EDT
Hi Ugly, Sorry you feel that way. I kinda like you US folks... Cheers, RG.nl
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 4:57:54 AM EDT
Bollocks-- I don't think he meant anything personally, just that generally europeans don't seem to understand the US and vice versa. But also, europeans seem to like to get on international tv and talk shit about us and our politics while most people from the US couldn't care less about what is going on across the pond as long as those hot non english speaking models keep showing up in our magazines... Im not going to say much cause Ive already got blasted for my comments pertaining to europeans running their mouths about Americans, but I sorta know what you mean uglygun...(I think some europeans have a syndrome closely related to penis envy) Michael
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 5:54:18 AM EDT
Of all the European countries I've been in, Holland (NL) is the only one where I enjoyed the population as a whole. They are the nicest and most polite/helpful folk I've met. The rest of Europe that I've seen can .... nevermind! Yes, there are individuals that were super elsewhere, but as a culture most European countries either have a hard on for us due to our attitudes or resent us defeating or saving them. Yeah, I know I'm making sweeping generalizations, but that's my perrogative and the way I see it. By the way, the East is a different story....
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 6:03:49 AM EDT
Well, I am European, live in the States (love it) and keep buying guns, so I guess I don't fit the mold of the typical gun-hating European. Seriously though, I agree that there are frequent misunderstandings. Europeans are often like the old missionaries who think they have to take it upon themselves to civilize America, the land of cowboys, guns, and lots of crime. A silly attitude, if you ask me. On the other hand, I often had to observe myself that sometimes American's distaste for Europeans is based on relative ignorance concerning European culture, history, politics, etc., combined with a dose of what seems at times excessive nationalism. So, no wonder that lack of understanding is the order of the day. And no, I am not a European know-it-all, and this is not meant to start yet another flame war of Americans versus Europeans. Just my personal observations. On that note, let's all show some tolerance...and defend your right to have guns (in that regard, Europeans may very well be envious)!
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 6:16:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By uglygun: I suggest only looking at that site if you feel up for a fight and have a lot to say about the issue or in response to the two morons on that board who think their opinions are "common sense" oriented.
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Let's take a look at the last century of some of the "common sense" to come out of Europe - Joe Stalin (USSR) - yeah, he was a freedom loving guy. Benito Moussolini (Italy)- Didn't his OWN PEOPLE frag him??? Adolf Hitler (Germany)- digusting as he was, I am quite certain he thought exterminating an entire race was just "common sense." Neville Chamberlain (Britain) - "If you just be nice to the Germans, they'll be nice back." GOOD plan, Neville. Slobodan Milosevic (Yugoslavia) - I don't believe his "common sense" initiatives will win him any Nobel Peace prizes. OKAY - America has had its Clintons, but nothing like the parade of fools Europe has suffered thru. POINT IS THIS - 1. America has guns, America has freedom. And because America has guns, many other nations experience some semblance of freedom. THAT is the truth. 2. Whenever some one uses the phrase "common sense" as the MAIN support for their ideas - RUN FOR THE HILLS.
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 6:16:53 AM EDT
Don't let it bother you Ugly, I doubt those guys are even reading your responses. You wont change them, but you will be ready for them when the time comes. I no longer argue with people like this. I just buy ammo and wait. When the time comes I will be ready and they won't, but they were warned. sgtar15
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 11:02:29 AM EDT
Uglygun, I checked out the site. I won't waste my time with these morons from other countries who havn't got a clue. I am busey enough with the morons in THIS country. You and the others that posted there made arguments that would convince rational people, but what did you expect from people with a negative bias towards this country in the first place. Maybe they are jelous of our freedoms(dwindeling they may be). I know that,for instance, many visitors from Japan, upon arrival on our shores head to a local shooting range. They want to experience something that thier Government won't allow. As for me, I will continue to invite non shooters to the range to show them what shooting is all about.[sniper]
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 1:20:56 PM EDT
Bollocks/RG, wasn't trying to lump you in with those awful europeans that I'm whining about. It's just the ones that are prone to act in the manner that I describe that really piss me off, as if they've got some sort of moral superiority over us because they've seen fit to outlaw firearms and are totally accepting of it. They seem to think that their crime rates are tied to access to firearms, as I tried to explain to them it's the difference in attitudes and criminal mentality between the two different lands which is the real difference and the most important factor. If a there is a group of people who shouldn't have their freedoms to own firearms restricted, I'd say the europeans in general have earned it where a good majority of their population is less prone to violence and the people seem to be more responsible with a great many of the freedoms bestowed upon them. Yet a good number of them willingly gave up their rights under the guise of "common sense." Just makes me shake my head.
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 1:45:26 PM EDT
You came across pretty rabid there, ugly. The crux of the Aussie, Finn and Swede's problem is that it's so easy to get guns in the US, and there really should be stricter requirements. They think the 2nd amendment is a lame argument. None of those countries were involved in a revolutionary war against their own government. There isn't the sort of mistrust of the government that is so prevalent in the US. Sweden and the Scandinavian countries love their welfare state, because with the homogeniety and values they have, they can pull it off without the whole system collapsing. Good for them. But once they start bringing in illiterate freeloaders from the 3rd world who do nothing but breed and seek entitlements, they will become much less enchanted with government involvement in their lives.
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 2:38:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2001 2:35:57 PM EDT by Ice]
Yeah, but the Finns should remember the wars they had, especially against the Russians. Some people just have that Bohica attitude toward infringing on their personal freedoms. It is sad when they try and blame guns for crimes. Ice
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 2:53:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 3:28:26 PM EDT
I usually hold most of the people here as knowlegdeable and aware of the situation of other countries. But quit bunching ALL of Europeans as the shitbags ALL countries have. Someone made a comment about refugees and 3rd world people and it would mess up things. We in Finland have now thousands and thousands of refugees, some with good reason to leave their countries, some don´t. But our system has taken care of these people, the socialist shit system. Maybe i even always don´t agree with ALL the help they get, since it seems too easy. But hey, atleast we take care of them. And about racism, yes we have it too, too much for our society, BUT YOUR LIVING IN A GOD DAMN FANTASYLAND THERE IF YOU THINK "we wouldn´t tolerate racism of that level here", guess there are no race issues and racism in the US, right. And let´s see which country is more lost when the news break on new gun sanctions and school shootings there. I usually am a calm person but this BS just gets my hair up.
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 3:51:58 PM EDT
Tuukka, my comments in the initial post were coming out of frustration and having had my fill of a few individuals. Don't mean to be overly hard on the few members of the european community who happen to stand with us and share our appreciation of firearms, it's just that there are plenty of other europeans out there who make comments that leave a bad taste in my mouth. Honestly, with the exception of this forum and a few other gun related forums out there where european members will come in to voice their opinions, I rarely hear mention of european gun owners who share our views or I never hear it reported. Not that that should be any big shocker with the media's death grip level of control that the media has with respect to what sees the light of day and what does not. I'm just sick of having a good majority of them looking down their noses upon us.
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 3:56:43 PM EDT
No hard feelings uglygun, no point in us, the few, fighting with each other. I understand why you might be upset and so am i some times when i turn on the TV.
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 4:22:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 4:37:30 PM EDT
Just trying to be sarcastic about the race and school issues. Racism is a thing which can not be tolerated and i always try to educate people who spout of comments when they don´t know jack s*** about things. Let us hope the future is bright for all responsible gun owners even spite all efforts to get rid of guns by all kinds of wierdos who claim they are on a good cause.
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 5:36:27 PM EDT
This thread brings up the question, Which part of Europe are you from? The half whose ass we saved or the half whose ass we kicked?
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 6:52:47 PM EDT
Why do you guys care? Just because these Europeans enjoy being unarmed wards of a socialist state doesn't mean you have to respond to what they are saying. I'm willing to bet that half of these Eurotrash neophytes are actually jealous of our right to own firearms. That Swede is angry because his country has 3000% inflation and has had a negative economy for 30 years and we are the richest nation on Earth. The best response you can give these pinheads is, "Yeah, OK Mr. European man, whatever you say." That pisses tham off and doesn't give them any fuel to flame you in return.
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 7:30:11 PM EDT
I would love to move the population of Baltimore to any European city. Then see what happens to their crime rate. GunLvr
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 8:17:33 PM EDT
DAMN YANKEES!
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 8:21:18 PM EDT
Come on, just think how much it would suck to be a European. You are no longer even a world power, just a bit player. Your society peaked centuries ago and has been in decline for at least the last two hundred years. As you have become increasingly dependent upon your government for your sustainance and survival, you've had to sit by and watch as the freedom loving neighbors across the pond have steadily gained industrial and technological might, eventually beating out everyone else on the planet to become the sole reigning superpower. In the past century you've either been beaten or saved by those neighbors who's success you have come to resent so much, but can't claim to have done much of either yourself. Now your life consists of going to work and spending the rest of your time in a drunken stupor as you aren't permitted to do much else except pay exorbitant taxes. The only thing you can brag about to the rest of the world is "Oh yeah, well we can get legal booze, drugs, and hookers anytime we want. That's REAL freedom!"
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 8:29:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dmuldrew: This thread brings up the question, Which part of Europe are you from? The half whose ass we saved or the half whose ass we kicked?
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I think that comment right there pretty much says it all. [;D] Damn proud to be AMERICAN! Tyler
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 10:45:48 PM EDT
I'm always amazed when Europeans are for "gun control". Most of the wars ever fought were in Europe after all. But...we talk about Stalin and Hitler et all, and not about the countless Native Americans? We talk about the Navajo codes in WWII, Johnny Cash sung about Reubin James(sp)(my first casette tape when I was five?) But we tell the Israelites to give back land they took after being attacked. History is written by the winners. I guess that is the bottom line (or was). I am a red-blooded American who is proud of the wars we have won and proud of the people who fought the questionable ones. The un-armed have always lost their asses! They say that those that do not learn from history are bound to repeat it. We are a stupid lot. War has always been. It's generally the jackass with the "world peace" bumper sticker that flips you the bird in traffic (and probably doesn't get along with his family or neighbors). Maybe the trick is to make war an honorable thing again, require politicians to have a Medal-of-Honor, and take welfare money from the losers. God takes care of those that take care of themselves. That's much more that just a simple thing as religion. We only complain because we have it so easy, we have nothing better to do? I say we start off this new world order by invading Mexico or Canada (nothing personal, just close), Then go down the line of everyone who voices displeasure with our foray. The World population will drop, the economy will boom, and we on this board will stop bitching about brown funk in the barrel of a rifle that we paid 660.00 for and didn't clean (when our gov't pays <200.00). Maybe we can get a tax-break for looting priceless art from another country and donating it to the Smithsonian! EVERY great nation falls eventually (Enland, Spain, Rome, Egypt...) We might as well kick ass while we're in charge. There is not another country in the World that we can't take at this moment. We can get the tobbaco Co's to sponsor some of this and run ads on the sides of our tanks! p.s. no women will fight in my world war. we will have warm chocolate chip cookies and cold beer while we are on leave. This post sponsored by Budweiser and Nestle's.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 2:26:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2001 2:28:20 AM EDT by skullworks]
Hey uglygun, it seems to me that you went off on the poor stupid twat for just posting that cartoon and saying "Yes... you're right... you have to wait a few days too." It was a bunch of americans that chimed in and criticized the US gunlaws. After your outburst he just defended his beliefs. (Let me just point out that although I too am from Sweden I do [b]NOT[/b], repeat [b]NOT[/b], agree with this jstar character.) Anyway, cut the guy some slack. I bet he's just some 19-year old draft dodger (yeah, we have the draft in Sweden; and yes, I served) who's soiling himself playing Delta Force on his computer. I'm not knocking Delta Force - I soil myself playing it too, but then I'll go to the range with my Bushmaster to get myself back on track. [heavy] Regarding the Second Amendment - "A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." I can see how you like to interpret the [i]keep and bear[/i] part as a guarantee to free ownership of arms. Unfortunately it's not that simple, as you very well know. What it does guarantee is the people's access to arms (or more implied - the people in the form of a well-regulated militia.) What this could mean (meaning "what the guys who wrote it [i]could[/i] have meant) is that each street should have a depot to keep arms in - for public use, not private. There is no reference to the individual in the Second Amendment, nor it is implied. Now, please keep in mind that I'm just stating the ambiguity of the Second Amendment, I'm not bashing it. When it comes to European gun laws you must remember that hunting and private ownership of hunting equipment (everything from snares to rifles) was regulated for more than 600 years. Hunting was a privilege of the royal and the noble, and anyone of a lower status who was caught with such equipment would be severely punished. The reason you have the Second Amendment is because it (and the rest of the constitution) was written right after you stomped the brits on their nuts. Just as every other nation who managed to free themselves from oppression the founding fathers of the U.S. wanted to make DAMN sure that it would not happen again. Therefore you have the first amendment guaranteeing freedom of speech so you can protest any wrongdoings, you have the second amendment guaranteeing the access to arms so you can protect yourself, the third amendment so that the government can't tell you that "Here's GI Joe, he will live with you for a year, and you have to feed him." The Fourth amendment prevents the government from unlawfully searching and seizing your property, whilst the Fifth through Ninth, plus the Elevent Amendment, protects your rights in a court of law. These guys didn't trust [b]ANY[/b] government! (And boy, were they right!)
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 2:27:14 AM EDT
Also, don't give Tuuka and the rest of the Finns a bad rap. After all, they managed to fight off the Russians pretty well during WWII. Also, regarding their gunlaws - if you say that you need a rifle for hunting then that's a valid reason (as it is in Sweden, though you have to go through a hunting safety & wildlife preservation course first.) And to top it all of - silencers/suppressors are permit free in Finland! And garandman, it's not fair listing morons from five different countries, then stating that the whole continent is fucked up. It's like saying that because one Canadian hockey player is a fuckup on the ice all americans suck at hockey. (I'm not a hockey fan, but it was the best I could do on short notice.) If you disagree please let me know, on the single condition that we refrain from generalizations and name calling. And that's [b]more[/b] than my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 3:40:08 AM EDT
skullworks, I wanted to clip the guys wings a bit, that is certainly true. I've been around that forum for a little over two years and listening to his biased opinion on more than one occasion finally pushed me to the point where I was fed up with it. Don't think that JStar is some 19 year old kid, he went on to list his birthdate and I accept it for what it is, he's older than I am and he likely has kids and a family. This is actually one of the more civil discussions about the issue, usually when they choose to go off on this type of discussion it's shortly after the most recent school shooting and then they really come off with a snooty attitude while throwing around just about nothing but insults directed soley at the firearms owning public. As for the Fins, I am glad for them that they stand a reasonable chance of obtaining the firearms they desire so long as they provide some sort of need. In this country I don't think it would work quite as smoothly though, I just see the whole "legitimate need" thing going over about as smoothly as when a person tries to go get an NFA sign off by their local head law enforcement official. Suddenly certain areas are permitting firearms ownership while others are not all based on the whim of a few police chiefs. I just think of what gun ownership within Ca. would be like if every time you wanted to purchase a firearm you had to goto the local police chief to ask his permission first. I think we can all imagine how well this would work in some areas, suddenly our right to own firearms is no longer so certain even if our criminal records are totally spotless and we lead a devine path. If he's gonna suggest something like that without knowing what it's like over here then I'm gonna try to help educate him just a little bit on the matter. I tried my best to keep my cool with those characters as long as possible but I'm at my rope's end. With regards to the 2nd Amendment, it's one area where I wish the framers had written a bit more clarity. But when you consider the state constitutions that had amendments drafted that are either similarly worded to that of the 2nd Amendment or even more strongly worded then it helps lend argument to what we've been saying all along. Then there are the written opinions of the framers where they openly supported the rights of the people to own firearms. Then there are other things within the constitution as well as various court cases upholding the 2nd Amendment, things that the typical european doesn't know about.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 4:18:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2001 4:17:15 AM EDT by skullworks]
Originally Posted By uglygun: skullworks, I wanted to clip the guys wings a bit, that is certainly true.
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Yeah, I can understand that. Unfortunately your energy is wasted on people like him. Actually most people who haven't submerged themselves in another country's history and culture will have a hard time understanding what's going on.
I've been around that forum for a little over two years and listening to his biased opinion on more than one occasion finally pushed me to the point where I was fed up with it.
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Yeah this is such a multi-fasceted issue that it's hard to see the whole picture no matter where you are. The guy is in Sweden, where we have a certain history when it comes to arms, what little he sees of the US side of the problem he gets from the media (including movies and US cop shows.) But at the same time it's equally hard to see the benefits of his point of view (if there are any) if your sitting over here trying to fight for what you believe in.
Don't think that JStar is some 19 year old kid, he went on to list his birthdate and I accept it for what it is, he's older than I am and he likely has kids and a family.
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How old is he? (Yeah, I'm too lazy to go back and check.) For the record I'm 27.
This is actually one of the more civil discussions about the issue, usually when they choose to go off on this type of discussion it's shortly after the most recent school shooting and then they really come off with a snooty attitude while throwing around just about nothing but insults directed soley at the firearms owning public.
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Sorry to hear that, but it's probably the same shit you get over here I reckon.
As for the Fins, I am glad for them that they stand a reasonable chance of obtaining the firearms they desire so long as they provide some sort of need.
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Pretty much the same as the background checks they have over here, but with some limitations on storage and what is allowed. (I doubt ARs are allowed over there.)
In this country I don't think it would work quite as smoothly though, I just see the whole "legitimate need" thing going over about as smoothly as when a person tries to go get an NFA sign off by their local head law enforcement official. Suddenly certain areas are permitting firearms ownership while others are not all based on the whim of a few police chiefs. I just think of what gun ownership within Ca. would be like if every time you wanted to purchase a firearm you had to goto the local police chief to ask his permission first. I think we can all imagine how well this would work in some areas, suddenly our right to own firearms is no longer so certain even if our criminal records are totally spotless and we lead a devine path.
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You are correct, it would never fly over here. That's the thing, here in the US you are moving from not being regulated to becoming regulated. In Sweden and Finland we've gone from being regulated to being less regulated (and now unfortunately becoming more regulated again.) Also it is not up to the individual police chief to regulate who gets one or who does not. There are national regulations and they do background checks. Of course, here in the US you have different federal, state, county and city regulations, and that makes it hard to enforce in a "nationally fair way." (cont)
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 4:19:23 AM EDT
(Continued from above)
If he's gonna suggest something like that without knowing what it's like over here then I'm gonna try to help educate him just a little bit on the matter. I tried my best to keep my cool with those characters as long as possible but I'm at my rope's end.
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I hear you. From the looks of it there was some cultural interference though. To a Swede it sounded as you came out guns blazing. The funny thing is that he might be a member of the Swedish national guard, which means that he's been issued a full auto HK G3 or a CG kpist m45 - otherwise known over here as the "Swedish K" SMG. There are no restriction on how to store your issue weapon other than that it's kept disassembled into 2 parts at different locations in your home. Pretty sweet deal huh? And if he is, how about them double standards, you should ask him! I just passed you some good AP ammo! [uzi]
With regards to the 2nd Amendment, it's one area where I wish the framers had written a bit more clarity. But when you consider the state constitutions that had amendments drafted that are either similarly worded to that of the 2nd Amendment or even more strongly worded then it helps lend argument to what we've been saying all along. Then there are the written opinions of the framers where they openly supported the rights of the people to own firearms. Then there are other things within the constitution as well as various court cases upholding the 2nd Amendment, things that the typical european doesn't know about.
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Actually I think they (the founding fathers)were quite clever. Buy not being too specific they countered for the fact that things might look different in the future, as well as allowing for some regulation of firearms (limiting convicted felons from ownership, stuff like that.) Instead of saying something like "Each free citizen of these United States are entitled to own one muscet, two flintlocks and unlimited number of swords." which would be outdated by todays technology, they phrased it in an intentionally fuzzy way. Or what do you think? Anyway, I hope I'm somewhat rectifying the good Swedish name in this forum.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 10:34:57 AM EDT
It seems to me that a very real part of thereason that many Europeans have a problem with the American attitude toward guns, and many other things in life, is the difference in perception about where the power comes from. In the vast majority of European countries power is seen as coming downward, from the government to the people. In the USA, power is upward; from the people to the government. Here, we the people have historically decided what the government should be and what it should do. In Europe, given most of their histories of royal rule, power was always decided by the ruler(s), who granted rights to the commoners based on their standing in society. You can still see an example of this in France, where it's not too hard for a monied or propertied person to get a gun, but don't let a dockworker try it. Even tho royalty has either been abolished or made ceremonial only today, that attitude, that the "ruler" decides, is still the cultural norm. That's why I'm damn glad that at My father's parents came here from France, and my mother's from Lithuania, and made my a free born AMERICAN.
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