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Posted: 6/26/2001 12:10:33 PM EDT
I was gonna hold onto this as my no. 25 "member" post, but it looks as though this is on our minds. it's been on mine for a while. I got to thinking about this recently in regard to hi-cap magazines and 'assault' weapons, but it has gone far beyond that now. aren't LEOs, in fact, civilians? LEOs are, as I understand it, citizens sworn to 'uphold the law' or 'serve and protect' but are really (should be) accountable to the same laws as the rest of us. Are they some alter-social class where they have special laws that apply to them. And if you think so, why? This isn't some quick 'they protect us' answer. i really want to know Here is what i have come up with. Thoughts? 1) LEOs are civilians with rights, unlike the military which has it's own laws The mil. laws are much more "strict" but you enter into that knowingly, you suspend some of your rights when you enlist. Military law and civil laws are different. Am I wrong? 2) A LEO should be as accountable, if not more so, to civil law because it is what they are supposed to be upholding? No? 3) The LEO should not have any means of force (weapons) that surpasses my own as they are just a civilian constablery. (don't use the military/civilian gun difference...that is a whole other debate). Do you think otherwise; if so, why? There is more, i am sure. But let's try to establish this. Is a LEO >/ = to a civilian? Zaz
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:13:25 PM EDT
The dictionary says no, they are not. Of course, I also have a dictionary that says the Second Amendment no longer has any meaning, so do with that what you will.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:18:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2001 12:15:54 PM EDT by Imbroglio]
They are most definitely not civilians. Just ask a cop the definition of the word and police/law enforcement won't be in it.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:20:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:21:44 PM EDT
All citizens are civilains except the military. Cops don't have to obey all laws because some laws specifically exempt them. Speeding for instance doesn't apply to cops in a lot of instances. How's a cop to chase down a speeder if he can't speed to catch up to him? Do you want a cop to drive the speed limit all the way across town to take a guy in who's raping your mother or something? Most states exempt the police officer from the speeding laws while in the performance of his duties.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:24:29 PM EDT
Merriam Webster's Collegiate, Tenth Edition: ci-vil-ian 1. specialist in Roman law or modern civil law 2. one not on active duty in a military, POLICE, or fire-fighting force. (emphasis mine)
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:28:14 PM EDT
I work for a federal L.E. agency. Let me assure you that LEOs on all levels; local, state and federal ARE indeed civilians! BTW "civilian" is not a insult or a dirty word. If you are not CURRENTLY on active duty in the U.S. military then, my friend, you are a civilian. I agree LEOs should be held accountable for their actions. Using the authority of a badge and a gun should not be viewed as a perk but as an obligation to hold yourself to a higher standard. The Gestopoesque tactics we have seen in recent years (Ruby Ridge, Waco, Elian Gonzalez, etc.)are an insult to all those who have sacrificed to give us the freedom too many of us take for granted.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:31:22 PM EDT
Yes, anyone outside the military is a civilian, regardless of their employer.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:31:34 PM EDT
1). Yes they are civilians. Yes they have rights, but fewer than most other citizens (although not as bad as the miltary). -Police officers do not have 1st Amendment rights. Except in the case of political speech related to a labor organization, a department can curtail your speech. -Officers do not have 2nd Amendment rights. The agency can and does regulate what you can carry and use, even off duty or in your own home, even if the officer obtains a normal concealed weapons license in their state. -Officers do not have 4th Amendment rights, either. Internal Affairs can make a warrantless search of your person, vehicle or house, without probable cause. -Officers do not have 5th Amendment rights; they can be forced to talk to investigators, they can be forced make incriminating statements about themselves and can be forced to take polygraph exams. They have no right to counsel during these interrogations. Who will fight for my rights? 2). Yes we should be held accountable. We even have special laws. Most states have offenses (wiretapping, civil rights, official misconduct) that can only be comitted by an officer, but do not apply to non-LE citizens. When officers are not prosecuted for other criminal acts, this is wrong. This does happen, but I think you will find that law enforcment officers disagree with it; when a law enforcement officer commits a crime, it makes all of us look bad, and we want to see them punished even more than everyone else. A lot of non-prosecutions probably result from political collusion between DAs and agencies; agencies don't want prosecutions because of civil liability-DAs go along because an elected DA is a political animal. This isn't right, its politics. Yes they are treated differently. They have policies and procdures which they are held accountable for. 3).This may be splitting hairs, but officers do not have weapons that the public does not, but law enforcement agencies do, and the agency can authorize the use or issue those weapons. For that matter, it is all stuff that is available to the public, as well, in most states. Law enforcement just pays the actual price, while civilians, unfortunately, pay the inflated post MG-ban price. I wish it were not that way, because it also puts personally owned MGs out of the price range of most LEOs, and we are mostly shooters and like such things.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:48:28 PM EDT
I'm just curious but what does it matter? I'm still trying to figure out the difference between a citizen and civilian.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:55:40 PM EDT
I don't know if AN LEO is a civilian or not and I don't see what it matters.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:01:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:11:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By zazou: aren't LEOs, in fact, civilians?
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It depends on which dictionary you use. Unfortunately many here let their emotions cloud their reading comprehesion.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:32:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Celt: Merriam Webster's Collegiate, Tenth Edition: ci-vil-ian 1. specialist in Roman law or modern civil law 2. one not on active duty in a military, POLICE, or fire-fighting force. (emphasis mine)
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Webster's is wrong. I am a Citizen. I am a Civilian. I am also a Police Officer, Paramedic, and Firefighter. (ParaPyroPig - get it? [:)]) P3[pyro][^]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:49:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRY G: I don't know if AN LEO is a civilian or not and I don't see what it matters.
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Well i think it does. They are armed better than us, don't seem to have anyone watching over them as they do us ( no, not in a paranoid way). I find it really amazing... some of the apathy here. It'slike only one or two things matter to some people. (larry i am not saying YOU are apathetic. just a subsequent observation)
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:56:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2001 2:20:43 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 2:08:15 PM EDT
We are but we are held to a higher standard. If you get a DWI you don't lose your job, I do. I am allowed to use one level of force above you. If I drive past an accident or crime and say nothing,am seen and identified I am in trouble. As for our rights as a general rule I can be ordered to give a statement with no right to be silent or an attorney (Garrity rights). But only in administrative matters. My contract does give me those rights above my Garrity rights. In NJ I can ride any NJ Transit for free, on or off duty. But i have the right to stand out in the rain to help you in an accident, On or off duty. I have the right to catch a bullet by some asshole that hates cops even though I never did anything to him. Except interfere with holding up a Store.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 2:53:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jadams951: I'm still trying to figure out the difference between a citizen and civilian.
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An illegal immigrant is a civilian but not a citizen. Here is a Cop to english translation cheat sheet: 1. "Good guys" - Cops. 2. "Bad guys" - Crooks. 3. "Suspect" - suspect. 4. "Victim" - victim. 5. "Witness" - witness. 6. "civilian" - none of the above^ aka uninvolved third party. You see it's just a word we use when nothing else really fits. Its easier to say "civilian" than say "uninvolved third party".
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 3:09:25 PM EDT
The Wind makes good points, I agree with most of what he said. Onto another matter. I am a civilian who works in law enforcement. I was a shooter, gun collector, and 2nd amendment supporter way before I was a cop. In 10 years none of that has changed.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 3:18:55 PM EDT
If you are not subject to the [b]UCMJ[/b] then you are a civilian. Period!! No if and`s or but`s.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 8:26:38 PM EDT
Only military members are not civies.Period
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 8:37:18 PM EDT
I am subject to the [b]UCMJ[/b] - not civilian. We refer city and county LEO's as civilian law enforcement. The blue line that is marked "US GOVERNMENT PROPERTY" is where civilian LE ends.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 8:41:28 PM EDT
Now what about the LEO's who work on military bases? I'm not sure if I'm 100% correct on this but I thought I saw their sleeve badge marked "US GOVERNMENT POLICE".
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 8:53:28 PM EDT
Quit stirring up trouble or someone may throw you back into the birdie boiler! [:)]
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 5:44:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 7_62___for_me: I am subject to the [b]UCMJ[/b] - not civilian..
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Unlikely
We refer city and county LEO's as civilian law enforcement. The blue line that is marked "US GOVERNMENT PROPERTY" is where civilian LE ends.
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Still civillian, NON military
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 5:47:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 7_62___for_me: Now what about the LEO's who work on military bases? I'm not sure if I'm 100% correct on this but I thought I saw their sleeve badge marked "US GOVERNMENT POLICE".
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Nevertheless still civilian. Non military Why do you people have a hard time with this? Is it you wanna be a military member but cant?
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 5:56:47 AM EDT
They have become an UN-authorized standing army, armed with implements of war, the implements the militia should be armed with as a deterrent to would be tyrants, but the militia has been taboooo in the Amerika of today! TYRANNY REIGNS SUPREME!
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 3:00:43 PM EDT
From AR15fan:
An illegal immigrant is a civilian but not a citizen. Here is a Cop to english translation cheat sheet: 1. "Good guys" - Cops. 2. "Bad guys" - Crooks. 3. "Suspect" - suspect. 4. "Victim" - victim. 5. "Witness" - witness. 6. "civilian" - none of the above^ aka uninvolved third party. You see it's just a word we use when nothing else really fits. Its easier to say "civilian" than say "uninvolved third party".
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That's it exactly, but there's more to it then that. I've heard many different groups use the word to identify others not of thier group. I've heard EMTs, Doctors, Search and Rescue people, pilots (civillian airline pilots), and firefighters use it. Each have thier own definition. It is a word which simply means that others are out there not held to the same standard as they and who play by different rules. The military definition is the easiest to understand and most widely accepted. It also is the reason this debate rages and no one can ever truely be happy with the definition: "Non civilian" - us "civillian" - them The very nature of the word is exclusive, yet it is human nature to want to belong. People feel slighted when a word is bandied about so freely which excludes them. I can't think of any way to fix it, it just is. But that's not even the real problem here. It doesn't really matter which group's definition of the word you go by, it's the guys who get all emotional over it and think someone is putting them down by calling them a civillian (the guilty on both sides are in all the groups I mentioned above) who keep harping on this. It seems these guys are usually trying for some form of elitism. They seem to think that the civilians are those of lessor stature then they. This has no place because there is one other thing that is pretty universal no matter which group you identify with - civillians are that mass of humanity which the "non-civillians" are there to take care of. The ones who the "non-civillians" serve. Just my 2 cents pitched on the carcass of the dead horse...
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