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Posted: 6/26/2001 11:47:30 AM EDT
What if a new product was developed that protected your lives and liberty, and was superior to guns? Would you be willing to give up the guns? Okay, go ahead and call me a wacko. Got it out of your system? Okay, read on. I got thinking about this recently, and I have to wonder how much our defense of the 2nd amendment has to do with actually preserving the constitution, and how much has to do with protecting our hobby (firearms). From a constitutional standpoint, guns are no more than a tool to keep our freedom. What if a better tool came along? Of course, if that happened, then the government wouldn't CARE about banning guns because they no longer would be a threat to them, but still...if a better tool came along with which to protect our lives and freedom, would you be willing to let guns be banned, or trade them in for an equal share of the new tool? Hmm...ultimately, liberty would win out over a hobby for me, but I sure would hate to see my babies go. I guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue...
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:52:54 AM EDT
A new product like??????Photon torpedoes.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:54:28 AM EDT
This product already exists: a cell phone with 911 on autodial.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:54:42 AM EDT
No, no, no. A gun from 300 years ago kills just a well, as one made yesterday.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:54:57 AM EDT
if i could shoot it sure ...but i guess i could because it would have to be a ranged weapon hence some kinda firearm..i dont see where we could go with this
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:58:19 AM EDT
What, phasers or something? If there was anything superior to guns, the government wouldn't let us have any, just like they wouldn't let satellite communications replace the hand-cranked printing presses protected under the 1st Amendment. Of course, the 1st Amendment specifically says "press," while the 2nd Amendment uses the broader term "arms," so who knows? Maybe the government will cut us gun toting rustics more slack than they have the liberal media types. P.S. Thanks for the glue!
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:03:20 PM EDT
*sniff* Faintest hint of junior apprentice troll in the air here....
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:03:39 PM EDT
The second amendment merely states our god given right and DUTY to self defense and defense of others. It does not grant us anything. No words on any piece of paper can do that. In order to accomplish this duty, we need weapons that are comparible to the weapons of our enemies. Today these are firearms as we know them. Who knows what it will be 100 years from now.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:05:03 PM EDT
Yes, mine are VERY important to ME.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:06:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io: This product already exists: a cell phone with 911 on autodial.
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Shirley, you jest. Hello, Police? I'm in a parking garage . . . no, I don't know the address but it someplace near the MCI Center. No, I don't know the address. . . Anyway, there's a group of men following me, making threats. No, I don't know the address. I'm afraid that they'll. . . Ahhhhhhhhh!
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:10:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2001 12:07:23 PM EDT by gus]
Originally Posted By Yaworski:
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io: This product already exists: a cell phone with 911 on autodial.
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Shirley, you jest. Hello, Police? I'm in a parking garage . . . no, I don't know the address but it someplace near the MCI Center. No, I don't know the address. . . Anyway, there's a group of men following me, making threats. No, I don't know the address. I'm afraid that they'll. . . Ahhhhhhhhh!
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LOL!!! Your first mistake was being anywhere near the MCI Center!! As for me, even if I get a really killer new ray gun, I still want my old guns.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:13:58 PM EDT
This product already exists: a cell phone with 911 on autodial. Riddle me this Batman. How does dialing 911 protect Liberty? Now imagine you are a rapist. What are you more afraid of your victim calling 911 you get caught goto jail for say 8 years OR a gun on your victims nightside table, round penetrates your skull splatering your braion the wall. you are now worm food.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:16:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jeff Stallard: I guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue........
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Yea, you did.......... DK [:D]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:19:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean: What, phasers or something? If there was anything superior to guns, the government wouldn't let us have any,...
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BINGO!
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:22:29 PM EDT
I really think it is the first right against an oppresive goverment. Some believe the press is, but I think a goverment that grants citizens the right to own firearms is one that also believes in a free press. I have noticed in both Canada & Great Britain recently cases where the press was not allowed to report on certain court cases until they were decided. A country that will take your guns will take other freedoms.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:22:38 PM EDT
Yes, my rifles are VERY important to me! For two reasons: Self defence... I have never been attacked - but the security of knowing they are there is worth ALOT more than what I paid for them. And dont mention cell phones - that is an absolutely ridiculous solution Pepper spray and tasers have a very limited range, by the time the attacker is that close you are REALLY in trouble Second... FUN!!! Shooting is the funnest thing there is, I don't know why I love it so much, but I do. I'd be really P.O.ed if I was not allowed to do it any longer.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:26:48 PM EDT
To reiterate what several have said here: The Second Amendment is a guarantee that the government won't infringe on the people's right to keep and bear [i]arms[/i]. Right now, that means [i]firearms[/i] and other "terrible implements" that are suitable for defense of self, family, community, and country. Regardless of the march of technology, firearms will remain suitable for this purpose for a [i]long[/i] time to come. The question is, therefore, moot. However, you'll note that the people's right to keep and bear fully-automatic weapons is heavily infringed by both state and federal laws at the current time. Should some bright scientist come up with a [i]Star Trek[/i] phaser, you can bet Uncle Sugar will prohibit Joe and Jane Average from having one since it won't have a [i]sporting purpose[/i]. Again, the point is moot. In answer to your question - regardless of advancing technology, no I will not be willing to let guns be banned. [sniper]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 12:31:04 PM EDT
No matter what new technologies are developed they will eventually be banned for the sake of "the children".
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:36:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 2:01:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jeff Stallard: What if a new product was developed that protected your lives and liberty, and was superior to guns? Would you be willing to give up the guns?
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If our liberty was protected, then their would be no restrictions to owning guns.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 2:10:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 2:33:51 PM EDT
________________________________________________ Originally posted by: fanof1911s In order to accomplish this duty, we need weapons that are comparible to the weapons of our enemies. Today these are firearms as we know them. Who knows what it will be 100 years from now. ________________________________________________ Good point, i bet people from hundreds of years ago never imagined that we would have weapons like the firearms that we have today. Fine, they probabely had spears and bows and arrows and swords, and at the time they were probabely considered to be THE weapon, though now those are pretty much obsolete when it comes to warfare. I really do wonder what they will come up with next.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 3:03:59 PM EDT
Yes because I still don't trust any governmental body and would want to have a means of fighting back if it ever came to that. You can be sure they will have guns. Second. So what? If I want to own a gun, why is it anyone's business.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 3:07:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jeff Stallard: Okay, go ahead and call me a wacko. I guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue...
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Wacko! Yup you did. [red]Evil-Beagles[/red][dracula]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 3:14:22 PM EDT
Second... FUN!!! Shooting is the funnest thing there is, I don't know why I love it so much, but I do. I'd be really P.O.ed if I was not allowed to do it any longer. [/quote] AMEN
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 3:25:08 PM EDT
1. The Bill of Rights does not mention firearms anywhere. The term is “Arms”. Weapons. When better small arms are developed they will also be “Arms”. Just because the AR and the AK exist, does not mean that the rights enumerated in the Second do not cover Colt Model Ps, Brown Bess muskets, or a sharp rock. 2. Shooting is about the most fun you can have with your clothes on. In public.[:D]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 4:56:08 PM EDT
For a first post something smells more than glue sgtar15
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 6:18:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2001 6:16:53 PM EDT by HKocher]
Dude, you guys seriously need to get with the 21st Century and get rid of your unreliable, ineffective, outdated firearms. There is a much more effective means of self defense that is currently in use in many of the world's hotspots, as seen on T.V. But keep in mind, this is cutting edge technology, but it won't last long. Get yours before the ban!!! [img]http://i.eimg.com/img/feeds/r/mideast/20010626/jer01d_full..jpg[/img] So easy, even the kids will love it! Man, I'd hate to be on the other end of that stone! [img]http://i.eimg.com/img/feeds/r/mideast/20010528/heb02d_full.jpg[/img] Look how terrified the M16 wielding soldiers are, when faced with a couple of stone-throwing children. [img]http://i.eimg.com/img/feeds/ap/mideast/truce/under/20010622/jrl104_full.jpg[/img] Combines with a sling for long range 'sniper' or counter-sniper work. [img]http://i.eimg.com/img/feeds/ap/sweden/eu/summit/20010615/lon111_full.jpg[/img] Watch out buddy! Those are armor piercing stones!
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 6:31:12 PM EDT
Just had to be the one: Arnie: "Phase-pulse plasma rifle in a 40 Watt Range." Gun dealer: "Hey, just what you see..."
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 6:51:52 PM EDT
What is the smell of gunpowder and gun oil??...............FREEDOM, FREEDOM!!!! I just won't/can't live without it!
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 6:54:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2001 6:53:57 PM EDT by BigGuns]
Originally Posted By HKocher: Dude, you guys seriously need to get with the 21st Century and get rid of your unreliable, ineffective, outdated firearms. [img]http://i.eimg.com/img/feeds/r/mideast/20010528/heb02d_full.jpg[/img] Look how terrified the M16 wielding soldiers are, when faced with a couple of stone-throwing children.
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I would trade all of my weapons to have the power to be totally invisible at will! [8D]
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 1:21:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jeff Stallard: What if a new product was developed that protected your lives and liberty, and was superior to guns? Would you be willing to give up the guns? Okay, go ahead and call me a wacko. Got it out of your system? Okay, read on. I got thinking about this recently, and I have to wonder how much our defense of the 2nd amendment has to do with actually preserving the constitution, and how much has to do with protecting our hobby (firearms). From a constitutional standpoint, guns are no more than a tool to keep our freedom. What if a better tool came along? Of course, if that happened, then the government wouldn't CARE about banning guns because they no longer would be a threat to them, but still...if a better tool came along with which to protect our lives and freedom, would you be willing to let guns be banned, or trade them in for an equal share of the new tool? Hmm...ultimately, liberty would win out over a hobby for me, but I sure would hate to see my babies go. I guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue...
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You are kidding, right? "Those who would surrender security for freedom,deserve nether". You are a very confused individual. May I suggest something stronger than glue. Having a hobby is great, but maybe you should do some reserch regarding the inportance of firearms used in the cause for freedom. using your logic, the russians shouldn't have been concerned about the mujuhideen in Afghanistan durring thier failed adventure in '79. After all, "what threat could a bunch of undisciplined,backwards ass,dirt farmers be to such a strong military machine such of that of mother Russia?". Well, I suppose the british asked that same question of the colonies back in 1775. So you see..Guns transend mere importance. They,and the will of free men are the gatekeepers of freedom.[sniper]
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 1:24:17 AM EDT
I'll take: - 1 Ohio Class submarine fully loaded with ICBM's and crew.
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 7:00:30 AM EDT
You are kidding, right? "Those who would surrender security for freedom,deserve nether". ...Having a hobby is great, but maybe you should do some reserch regarding the inportance of firearms used in the cause for freedom. So you see..Guns transend mere importance. They,and the will of free men are the gatekeepers of freedom.
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If guns are the gatekeepers of freedom, does that mean that no one was free BEFORE guns were invented? This is my whole point! People used to defend liberty with stones, then swords, then guns, and then...what? What will be the next tooth of liberty? Guns have pretty much prgressed as much as they can, so what will be the next leap in liberty-protecting technology? More importantly, however, will our love of guns allow us to ACCEPT this new class of arms, or will be give up that extra protection and instead stick with our outdated, but loved, guns? Yes, this is a purely academic discussion. Guns will be around for longer than we will. But still...it's interesting to think about. For those of you who are saying I'm a troll...to what end? What am I trying to accomplish? I also find it ironic that those accusing me are hiding behind pseudonyms while I am using my real name. Yeah, yeah, go ahead and lay into me; I think probably 98% of people here don't use their real name.
Link Posted: 6/27/2001 7:10:23 AM EDT
For those of you who are saying I'm a troll...to what end? What am I trying to accomplish? I also find it ironic that those accusing me are hiding behind pseudonyms while I am using my real name. Yeah, yeah, go ahead and lay into me; I think probably 98% of people here don't use their real name.
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So? What do you have to be afraid of? Some angry member tracking you down and destroying your computer in a fit of murderous anti-troll rage? Yeah, right..... Some ppl on this board(well, at least me) use pseudonyms to preven the ATF from keeping a list of "angry gun owners" to use when TSHTF. Also most ppl avoid giving out their real name online for numerous security reasons unrelated to tinfoil hat wearing. And anyway, back to the topic - 2nd amendment refers to arms. a "Phase-pulse plasma rifle in a 40 Watt Range" would fit within the definition of small arms. As did rocks and spears before the age of gunpowder.
Link Posted: 6/28/2001 2:09:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By geek4guns:
For those of you who are saying I'm a troll...to what end? What am I trying to accomplish? I also find it ironic that those accusing me are hiding behind pseudonyms while I am using my real name. Yeah, yeah, go ahead and lay into me; I think probably 98% of people here don't use their real name.
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So? What do you have to be afraid of? Some angry member tracking you down and destroying your computer in a fit of murderous anti-troll rage? Yeah, right..... Some ppl on this board(well, at least me) use pseudonyms to preven the ATF from keeping a list of "angry gun owners" to use when TSHTF. Also most ppl avoid giving out their real name online for numerous security reasons unrelated to tinfoil hat wearing. And anyway, back to the topic - 2nd amendment refers to arms. a "Phase-pulse plasma rifle in a 40 Watt Range" would fit within the definition of small arms. As did rocks and spears before the age of gunpowder.
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Yep........What geek4guns said!!
Link Posted: 6/28/2001 3:54:34 AM EDT
Sure, I will trade in my AR for one of those phaser that Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock used to shoot at a human target to disintegrate him into a zillion of atoms.
Link Posted: 6/28/2001 4:23:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/28/2001 4:21:17 AM EDT by Norm_G]
The 911 on autodial was posted by poor, womenzless Imbroglio. Remember that when reading it. More importantly, I think we flashed right past the most important comment made in this whole thread:
Originally Posted By MrP: If our liberty was protected, then their would be no restrictions to owning guns.
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Thank you, MrP. Norm
Link Posted: 6/28/2001 4:33:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/28/2001 4:31:34 AM EDT by MOD]
Jeff: Which bridge did you come out from under? Seriously though, is your right of free speech or any of the others for that matter that important?
Link Posted: 6/28/2001 4:37:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MrP: If our liberty was protected, then their would be no restrictions to owning guns.
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I'm going to agree with MrP and Norm G. This is the only answer that need be given.
Link Posted: 6/28/2001 4:51:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MOD: Jeff: Which bridge did you come out from under? Seriously though, is your right of free speech or any of the others for that matter that important?
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When did I ever say our rights weren't important?! I'm just speculating on the next-generation "liberty teeth" and whether we'll be able to accept it or not. If that makes me a troll...well then...troll me up. On a less controversial note, I hope to see you all at Bulletfest 2001 this weekend. Feel free to bring your phasers and plasma rifles. ;-)
Link Posted: 6/28/2001 6:21:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jeff Stallard: If guns are the gatekeepers of freedom, does that mean that no one was free BEFORE guns were invented? This is my whole point! People used to defend liberty with stones, then swords, then guns, and then...what? What will be the next tooth of liberty? Guns have pretty much prgressed (sic) as much as they can, so what will be the next leap in liberty-protecting technology?
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The difference between firearms and rocks or swords (or bow & arrow for that matter) is that one person with a repeating firearm and the rudimentary skills needed to use it can successfully oppose a superior number. The same is not true of someone hurling rocks. To use a sword effectively takes years of training, and superior numbers will still overwhelm. To use a bow effectively also takes years of training. However, using a firearm from cover does not. If all the guns disappeared by magic tomorrow we'd return to a time when large powerful men with swords were in charge. I believe when this last occurred it was called "the Dark Ages" - with reason. Finally, your point on the march of technology is valid, and you point out accurately that the technology of hurling a small metal projectile at high velocity from a hand-held device has about reached its zenith. No one is doing research into alternate technology personal weapons other than various governments. Don't hold your breath expecting said governments to let their citizens possess such weaponry. In case you hadn't noticed, there's quite a bit of effort going into [b]removing[/b] firearms technology from citizens now. Expecting the citizens to get [i]more advanced[/i] technology seems naïve at best.[sniper]
Link Posted: 6/28/2001 4:58:06 PM EDT
phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range :)
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