And on this, we agree completely!

Like I've said before, if (when?[V]) "They" come for our guns, me, and most of the cops I know will be on the same side of the sandbags as you, and will hand you another magazine when you run dry!!![:D]

P3[pyro][(:)]

I don't know about were all of you live, but here the bars have pretty much been in the same location for years. I think if it is just to check for drunk drivers,outside the bars are a good place to start not out on some road 10 miles away.
I think in my opinion they are just fishing expeditions and nothing more.[smoke]

So Boland, if you were a cop in Nazi Germany and it was the law that all Jews had to report to the camps, would that make it right for you to turn them in?  What if you were a cop in the South in the 1860s and it was the rule of law that escaped slaves had to be caught and taken back to their masters? Would you do it?
Laws are made by flawed men, and many times flawed men produce flawed laws.  Blind obedience to the law is called slavery.

Me, I am just a deputy sheriff (read Constutional Officer, I am directly empowered by the chief law enforcement officer of my county, and he is an elected official) I happen to have served my country for 7 years in the US Army in combat arms. I have served my county, state, and nation for another 18 years in my capacity as a deputy sheriff. I am currently a sergeant, and run the patrol section of a district. I have worked CID, ran the Civil and Fugitive Apprehension Division, and was the XO of narcotics.
Have I ever "hassled" anyone? Yep, burglars, drug dealers, murdurers, and rapists. Those who feel that stopping drunk drivers is a violation of thier rights, need to go to the scene of a crash where a drunk driver has killed an entire family. They need to hold a 9 month old baby in thier arms, and watch her die. They need to smell the unique smell of brain, or burnt human flesh. The sights are not what get you, it's the smell that will remain with you all of your life.
And to the argument that marijuana dosen't kill, the first homicide I ever worked on was the killing of a father and son by rival marijuana growers. The boy had been shot 23 times with a Mini-14, and triple tapped to the head by a Beretta .380. The father had been only shot 12 times, blowing an arm off.
While eridacting marijuana, I have been shot at, boobie trapped with fishing line and treble hooks, and punji sticks.
As to constutionality, if the Supreme Court says it is, it is. You, and I may not like the erosion of individual rights, but short of overthrowing the goverment, you can only do like I do. Vote! I have cast my ballot from the East German border, from the desert, and from home. Instead of just whining, I get involved with campaigns of canidates who think as I do. And if you don't like how I feel, tough shit! It is a free country, and just like you, I have a right to my feelings and to express them.

This is an examination of the ethical stance behind Boland's "the law is the law and you have to obey the law" statement.  Care to take a crack at anwering the questions?

StG44, the marijuana didn't kill, the war on drugs killed. If marijuana were legalized, there wouldn't be rival drug gangs shooting at each other and the cops.

Maybe you should buy a course in basic writing.  English is still the primary language in Canada, right? Or are you a Quebecois?
Whichever, your post was very nearly incoherent.
If I can parse something out of it, you are trying to basically say "Well, that's different!"
And you're missing the point.  The point isn't if the situation is different, it is what MAKES it different. You stated that people should obey the law because it's the law. That is unethical and stupid.
There are reasons to obey the law, but "because it's the law" is not one of them. Anyone that thinks it is has very little in the way of ethics and has not thought out their ethical or philosophical stance very thoroughly.

I'M on the planet where the war on drugs has sucked down BILLIONS of dollars and caused hundreds of thousands of casualties in the last twenty years without significantly slowing down the demand for illegal drugs. I'M on the planet where the war on drugs has been responsible for the erosion of our constitutional rights. I'M on the planet where the American FDA forbids the testin of marijuana for medical use "because it's eeevil."  That's my planet. What's yous?

The problem lies with us...where are we assigning the blame? Are we pissed off at the people enforcing laws we deem unconstitutional or intrusive? Of course. We should blame the MORONS who pass the stupid laws. But hell, most people can't even name their reps or senators, much less write them. That would require actually doing something about the problem...but noooo we would rather spend time bitching about the cops that enforce the laws. It is so easy to slam people based on their profession rather than their individual character (read MLK), especially when one is wrapped comfortably in the anonymity of this forum. Cops are human like the rest of us...some good, some horrible. Judge the man, not the badge.

This argument is like the gun control issue. Do we address the actual problem: people killing people? Or, do we focus on one of the tools...the guns? This is the same thing, Stupid, freedom-hating politicians trampling the Constitution (the actual problem) or the law enforcement officers (the tool they use)

I hope I made sense...If you are not part of the solution...you ARE the problem.

The war on drugs had nothing to do with it. It was two brothers who snuffed out a rival growing operation, shooting an innoncent bystanter in the process. We have had 5 people shot execution style over drugs in thier own home over drugs, men, women, and children. Not to count the numerous drive by's, and individual murders.    
I know the current War on Drugs is not working. The prohibition of alcohol didn't work, and just created far more problems than it ever stopped. The war on drugs is much the same. But is legalization the right answer? Legal alcohol kills over 1/2 million americans every year, and another 20,000 or so by DUI drivers. Not nearly as many as cocaine, heroin, or meth. Hell we just got over a major drug problem, Oxycotin. It is a legal, prescribed pain medication. We had a doctor who would write you a script if you had a hangnail. We had home invasions, armed robberies, ass whippings, burglaries all over a "legal" drug.
I don't have the answers, like so many on this board. I do however, see the results of "legal" drugs such as alcohol, tobacco, and prescription drugs on a daily basis. Me, I am just like the Dutch boy with his finger in the dike, trying to hold back the flood of crime. Do I expect you to love me? Nope, never was trying to run a popularity contest. Respect me? Hopefully, grudgingly. I am a hard ass when needed, but always, to the best of my ability, FAIR and IMPARTIAL.  

Screw cops. I have absolutely no use for them. I'll police myself, thank you.

As for them doing a dangerous job. Screw that too. No one twisted their arm to take the nice starting salary, gobs of overtime, great benefits, excellent retirement in 20 years, and the get of of jail (and tickets) free card called a badge.

I do sympathize with their widows and orphans when one doesn't come home, but I have sympathy for all widows and orphans.

When cops start policing their own, like they police me, I'll pray for them.

I want to see thousands of cops condemn the actions of one of their own, when some citizen gets shot up in his bed, by some punk cop with an itchy trigger finger, serving an illegal and unconstitutional no-knock warrant. Then I might believe cops to be more than immature spoiled brats with guns and badges on a power trip.

As long as all of you keep defending each other to the bitter end, I will remain convinced that myself and my family are far better off without any of you.

A major part of the problem would become a non problem if the so called "good" cops would publicly condemn the actions of the bad ones. We didn't see a few thousand cops screaming for the badges of the bad ones that fired 41 shots at an unarmed man in NYC, did we? No, we saw an outpouring of support for what, to any decent human being, is obviously a case of "kill that mo fo!"

When they grow the balls to police themselves, I'll accept their policing me. Until then, screw em.

"Dorothy, wake up!"

Trollbait.

PTTTTTTHTHTHTHTHTBBBBTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smells of elderberries.

Seriously, man, thanks for a good laugh. I'm ROTFLMAOTIP[puke]

P3[pyro][NI]

A person like myself is probably far likelier to meet my demise at the hand of LE than at the hands of criminals, so what do I need a cop for?

I support the 2nd amendment. I am very outspoken and critical of left wing politicians. I push the limits of the 1st amendment, by advocating gun ownership as a means of defending oneself and family against out of control government. I live in a state with a "turn in your neighbor" law that says if the police think I am a threat to myself or other, they can take away my guns. I live in a rural part of the state, where violent crime doesn't exist. And I have lots of guns.

If I have a worry in the world, it is that I will one day be forced, by the police, to decide between living as a slave or dying free.

NOTHING I have seen of late tells me that the police will not do everything in their power to help the latter become a reality.

I'll say it again. When the police, as a group, begin publicly condemning unconstitutional laws and actions, and crimes commited by their peers, my mind may begin to change.

You sound like a reasonable man. What we are complaining about is not the pulling over of someone suspected of driving drunk such as swerving or whatever means you use to determine this. What we do not like are those blanket "safety stops" or DUI checks. This is a blanket operation in the hopes of catching someone doing something wrong. If I am not mistaken, your car is an extension of your "personal space" and applicable laws should apply. These stops are just taking us one step closer to LEOs being able to come to our houses to "check if there is anything going on" in the name of public safety. For the LEOs who do NOT understand this, you are the ones we are worried about.

Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

Show me ONE cop who thought that 41 shots in that poor schmuck in NYC was a crime. Why did the NYPD union not condemn their actions? Because when push comes to shove, they will all ALWAYS stick together.

No, I'm not a lunatic. In fact, I am being a bit of a caricature of myself today, after reading Imbroglio's thread on the 4 deputies that found it necessary to shoot up some kid's dog, while serving a warant at the wrong house.

I'm waiting for the cop lovers to say that was a clean kill. "The dog barked. He had to be put down. We're the police. We can't have a dog bark at us, dontcha know?"

I forgot to add that I don't do drugs, don't drink and drive, don't steal, and have a small circle of law abiding, and morally upright friends.

If expecting that living in America should mean living in a free country is mentally imbalanced, then I guess I am. [:)]

I am not sure all LEOs understand what kind of damage things like BVs experiance have on peoples opinions. I would bet that almost everyone he comes in contact with that he is friends with in the next week or so will hear all about this. Remember, one oh shit whipes out 3 atta boys.

Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

Seems like leo types tend to think that if a citizen stands up for their rights or makes an issue of govt infringing on these rights, they are looked at as some kind of tin foil hat, militia, anarchist !!!
Why is that ??
Leo's dont like being labeled as jack booted thugs or paramilitary gung ho types.
Unfortunatly, leo's have the power, where citizens dont. Do you really expect us to accept that you will police your own ??
Think about how many things would have been covered up if not for people watching.
We are not wackos just because we beleive in our constitution and bill of rights and choose to stand up for our rights when we see fit.
I asked this earlier with no response, so here goes again...what happened to protect and serve ?
always remember who you work for. we dont want anarchy just the rights guaranteed to us by our forefathers.

Critter, the Nigerian, illegial alien in New York was not shot 41 times. He was shot at 41 times and hit 19 as I recall. No it was not right, or good. But the victim was partially to blame. The officers were looking for a rape suspect, he matched the description. When challenged, in a dark build entryway, he instead of obeying commands, yanked his wallet out in what was percived to be a threatning manner. They had a milli-second to react to what they perceived to be a threat. The following spray, and pray was wrong. It was a tragedy that an innoncent-illegial alien was killed. But the number of rounds used does not excessive use of force make. Handgun bullets are not a magic weapon. NYPD at one time used USA 115gr ball ammo. You are taught that you engage a threat until that threat ceases. If I have to use deadly force again, and I hope I don't, I'll use every round in the pistol, the 250 spare rounds in the car, the AR, and 8 mags, and then run over the bastard if that is what it takes.
As to the gentleman who turned from the roadblock and had his pistol damaged. Did he file a complaint? Any one of my men who did some BS like that would be in front of I.A. and most likely given weeks off, made to pay for the pistol damage, and possibly fired.
You all cry about the unfriendly press when someone shoots up a school with legal firearms, how it paints us all in a bad light. But when one or two cops screw the pooch, we all are at fault no matter how honorably we do our jobs. I do my job honorably, legally, morally, and ethically. How about you? No, I am not perfect, and I am willing to admit to my mistakes. I also learn from them, so as to not repeat them. Some of you seem to want the anarchy of most African countries. Personally, I'll accept the rule of law, and understand it is made by man who is liable to mistakes. I will try to identify the mistakes, and correct them. Not just whine about them.
And if anyone out there can come up with a way for everyone to have all the personal freedoms completely unhindered by law, and not have people violating the personal freedoms of others, please let me know.  

Thanks Beekeeper, but I'll stick to the "Redneck Riveria". Hell, it was us in the real part of Florida that kept Al Gore out of office. We can't spare hetro/conservatives with all the Damn Yankees moving in!  

Man...I've never seen so much anti-LEO hype. Like any other profession there are good and bad. The newspapers and national media outlets do not make money by sharing good news only the bad. That applies when dealing with LEO stories. They hype the bad stuff cause it sells. Sure, bad things happen sometimes with LEO but the same happens with Drs, lawyers, politicians, truck drivers, carpenters, etc. Point is a few problems should not translate into a hatred for LEO. They have probably the toughest job in society dealing with all the losers out there. My hat is off to anyone who manages to protect and serve to the best of their abilities. I do not enjoy the thought of a lawless society where I need to be constantly vigilant for "bad guys" trying to harm me or my family. Thank God for LEO.
Seems like those that bitch the loudest about LEO are those that have a hard time following the law. I guess rather than taking resposibility for your own screw-ups you somehow blame the cop who busted you...that is not a way of thinking that will get you very far in life.  Not looking for flame mail but expect it will come. Had to express my opinion.

Just an observation. Even the Gestopo knocked before taking the Jews to the gas chamber.

I remember when cops were supposed to keep the peace which isn't necessarily the same as enforcing the law.  Now, a police officer's job is to enforce the law.

The police have become the standing army that our founders feared.  Cops, like soldiers, obey orders and don't bother to question them.  If Captain Blowme says, "kick in that door and look for drugs,"  Patrolman Buttsuck isn't going to say, "Captain, we ain't got a warrant."

When I was a kid growning up in Pittsburgh, cops were your friends.  They'd stop and chat with you.  They'd help you.  They were accessible.

When I moved to Monkey County, Maryland, I had a rude awakening.  I arrived in Monkey County on a rainy night and promptly got lost.  I found a cop and asked him for directions.  His response was, "what do I look like, an information bureau?"

Cops are not accessible to the public.  The cop that will stop and talk to a citizen is the rarity.  Most cruise around in the cars and don't want to deal with the people that pay their salaries.  Hell, if you say hello to a cop around here, you are lucky if you get a response.

Cops revel in their ability to break the law with impunity.  How many off duty cops do you see violating the speed laws?  Hell, how many on duty cops violate traffic laws?

Cops use their powers to harrass people that they have a personal conflict with.

I now prefer to keep cops as far away as possible.

No offense adtech but I don't understand the statement. I'm not suggesting we as citizens should not be vigilant of efforts to degrade or erode our rights....if Washington politicos attempt to do so we should vote the bastards out. My point is that cops/LEO of all types have a damn tough job. They do the crappy jobs you and I don't want to do dealing with the lowest common denominator in our society. They have my complete gratitude.
Having said that, those LEO that abuse their position(which are few but highly publicized) should be held accountable and dealt with according to the law. Again, every profession has "bad apples"....that is a given. I just don't understand the "us vs. them" mentality unless of course, a person has a penchant for criminal behavior that subjects them to the penalties we, as a society, impose....for those folks I say too f'ing bad. You do the crime, you do the time. Ask Robert Blake aka Berretta...he is about to find out...    

Well, I guess that you just don't understand, then. The "us vs. them" mentality grows directly in proportion to the increase in legislation criminalizing a seemingly endless array of activities. Perhaps you will only understand when the day arrives, assumming that it hasn't already, that we ALL could be found in violation of some law or regulation. Does that thought comfort you?

**FOR THE LAST GODDAM TIME, IT'S "P3"!!!!!!!!**[BD]

Thanx for the compliment & the understanding. There are more of us out there than you'ld think. Most of us, really...

I was born in Chicago in '67 & raised in Libertyville until '85.

- Dude, I ESCAPED the PRI!!!

P3[pyro][^]

Oh how mature.  I think I know what the problem is.  But I'd have to x-ray your skull to be sure.

-SARguy

actually it was in referance to no-knock warrents. Also Anyone forcibly enters my home will be shot. period. If they enter the wrong house and don't yell police before I shoot tough doggy doodoo

No, it had everything to do with it. No war on drugs, no profit margin. No profit margin, no violence.

And the fact that enough people (not a majority usually) has been conned into believing a law is constitutional and just to force congress to pass it doesn't mean I have to follow it.  Sorry, Boland, I don't believe in blind obedience to the law.  Not going to change my mind and only experience can change yours.