I don't let my daughters go anywhere without me or my wife. They are 9 and 6.

One of my daughter's friends can basically go anywhere by herself (she's 9 too). Her parents drop her off at the movies, and pick her up a couple of hours later. That's why my kids can't go to the movies with her.

My kids don't go to the movies alone. If we're at K-mart and they want to go to the toy dept, one of us goes with them. They don't go to the playground alone. If I'm out with them and they need to go to the bathroom, I carry them into the men's room (eyes closed) and they use a stall, they don't go into the women's room alone. They don't play in the yard unless one of us is out there with them. They don't do sleepovers, and no one sleeps over at our house. They are walked to and from school every day, or watched the whole way (school is very close).

When I hear about a 10 year old boy abducted from a public swimming pool, or a 5 year old snatched from her front yard, I can't help being pissed at the parents. I mean, were they stupid, or lazy, or did they just not give enough of a damn about their kids to miss a WWF wrestling or Guiding Light episode?

Some people think we're overprotective.

I know there are some sick pieces of human garbage out there, and I refuse to let one of my kids be one of their toys.

Don't get me wrong, I tell my kids about the world and the way it is (and counteract the crap they're taught in school), I teach them to shoot (they can't get enough of that), and I teach them how and when to fight, but they are no match for a 180 pound sicko bent on evil deeds.

So, how much freedom do you give your kids? I don't give them much. I give them freedom of thought, but I heavily restrict their movement.

Maybe I'm fucked up. But I don't think so.

 

NO your being what's called a concerned parent.

My wife and I parent the same way with the exception that we do sleep overs after we get to know the parents. you are not overprotective.

HELL YES YOU ARE OVERPROTECTIVE!

Jesus man, THEY HAVE LIVES OF THEIR OWN!!!!!!! LET THEM LIVE THEM!

What are you doing to do when they get older, have boy friends?? Follow them everywhere?!?! What about when they experiment with sex? Drugs? Alcohol? You CAN'T hold there hands forever.


If you were a kid, would you want your parents following you everywhere?


If you don't give them more freedom, sooner or later, they WILL run off. I know I would.

As a parent this is one area I am a bit conflicted about.  On the one hand, I see all the news reports and feel like I need to keep my son in sight all the time.
But on the other hand, I remember when *I* was a kid...when I was 11-12, I would ride my bike all over town with one of my friends, having fun and out on my own...it is one of my fondest memories.
I also know from the statistics that crime was higher then than it is now.
And I don't want my son to wind up being an overprotected wimp. But I also want to protect him from the threats out there in the world and it would kill me if anything happened to him.
I don't really have an answer yet.

Thug, I am with you on this, brother. My wife and I were very protective of our daughter  when she was that age also. Dont worry, soon they will be old enough to fend for themselves(much too soon unfortunately). Best of luck, Dad!

Unfortunately we live in a world where their are some truly sick people. I have two girls 10 and 12. In this case one must be overprotective, I'd rather be overprotective than not do something that could prevent either of my daughters being harmed in any way.

I agree with you on principal but you're over doing it with the 9 year old.
Sleepovers after you know the parents, are one of the joys of childhood.
At 9, you can watch the door but your daughter should be allowed to go to the ladies room. She's too old to go into the men's room. I'd be careful how restrictive you are as they grow older. It could easily blow up in your face.
Independence can be a powerful and necessary gift to teach a girl. Do you want them to ALWAYS rely on someone, i.e. a man? Hopefully not... don't undermine their self-confidence as they grow older.
Perhaps you live in a big city... I think  you're on the verge of overprotective. Much better to see the concern however than just letting them run rampant.

Then again, perhaps you're just a control freak.
Sorry, I've just had wayyyy too much experience with that type.

Cap'n O,

I don't know if you're being serious or facetious, but I'll answer.

I know when I was their age, I was given a lot of freedom. I grew up without a dad. My mom gave me discipline, but allowed me a long leash.

I pulled a lot of screwed up shit in my time. A LOT.

But I also did some good things. Some very good things.

I kinda had to find my own way in the world.

I just want to keep my kids from doing all the screwed up shit I did.

And yes, the world is a much different place from when I was growing up.

As to them getting boyfriends, it ain't going to happen. They're going into a convent when they turn 12. Just kidding!

But seriously, any boy they want to date will talk to me before they go anywhere with him. We will have a serious discussion about morals, and ethics, and respect. And if I don't like the young man's answers, he'll go out alone.

And as for drugs and alcohol, I've done too much and too many for them to pull that kind of crap over on me.

But I don't think they'll be trying to pull any kind of crap. They are just too good and smart to even try it. But I'll be watching, anyway.  

Not at all. My youngest is 13 and we still watch after her when she goes somewhere to a public bathroom. Most of the time my wife will wait on her. She doesn't go anywhere unless we know that an adult is with her. When my middle daughter went on her first date I was cleaning my Daewoo k2 when the young man came to pick her up. He has since married her and we are building him an AR15.(wonder if he'll do the same thing I did..LOL)  [sniper]

I think you're doing the right thing. The thing my dad always told me(and still does) was, "If I didn't care, you could go where ever you wanted, and do what you want. If I didn't care how you would grow up, you could go off by yourself like (insert name of child given free rein by their parents), and be like him". I'm 18, and he told me that all my childhood, most of the time when I wanted an unsupervised acitivity.

I was a little resentful at times, sure, I wanted to run around after dark in the neighborhood, but I could see the correlation, because he made sure to show me the diffrence for kids closely watched and cared for by their parents, and those who were not. Maybe this doesn't touch too much on the issue of watching them, but I 100% appreciate my dad's guiding philosphy of "we're different, because the norm of child raising is to neglect", and I'm thankful that he supervised and protected me through my childhood, and continues to do so now. Keep an eye on them, you won't regret it, IMNSHO. Don't lie about the world as it is, but shelter them from the evil they can't control. That's the balance.

Hopefully my dad, xanadu, will weigh in on this topic later, as the loving and sheltering father of quite a few kids, he's qualified to speak.

Juggernaut[%(]

I think it depends on the child. Some children are smart enough to take care of themselves and mature enough to make good decisions. You have to know your child.

alwaysrunning,

First, I must commend you on making your first post in a reasonable and sensible tone. Most people don't, and I'm pretty sure I didn't either. Man, I wish I could remember what my first post was. I'd probably feel like an idiot if anyone could re-post it.

But, I'm going to disagree with you.

No matter how well you THINK you know the parents or the kids, bad things can happen. They have, and they will. How many kids have been victimized by "trusted" friends or parents. One is one too many for me.

Now, I don't recall the details, but how about that girl who was murdered in the Vegas casino bathroom? I think she was at least 9, and would it have made a difference if her dad was standing outside the door? I bet he wouldn't have heard a thing.

As for independence, it can be taught without even leaving the house. Children should be given responsibilities very early in life, and learn the consequences of failing to fulfill those responsibilities. It doesn't even take a lot of imagination on the parents' part.

As for me being a control freak, I'm not. Ask any of the troops I've ever had. They'll tell you my leadership style is sometimes authoritarian, a good deal delegative, but mostly participative. They've told me as much, because I've asked them. Also, I can't be a control freak at home. Not with my wife.
[(:)]

Re-reading that, let me clarify something.



By that, I meant trusted friends of the kids, or THEIR trusted parents. Just thought I needed to clarify that.

littlemarine,

I've tried to make my kids smart enough and mature enough to take care of themselves. I think I've done a damn good job. But they just aren't physically strong enough to deal with a sick bastard who's my size or better. That's why I gotta be there.

Thug,

I commend the fact that you are so concerned about your kids, but like the police you can't be EVERYWHERE & ALL THE TIME! As children grow you have to allow them some freedom so that they will experience the world for themselves. This includes the pain that comes with experience. Hopefully it won't be a big pain. Just like you can't protect yourself from the drunk in the other car that is 1.5 seconds away from crossing the center line of the two-lane at 60 MPH. You can hope the airbags work but at a closing speed of over 100 MPH, airbags might not be enough....

If you train a dog, you have to let them off the leash sometime... [:\]

Thats true. I don't think a 9 year old could fight off a male adult however knowing how to get out of a situation using your brain is more important than how strong you are.

wrecktech,

My kids are young, and I think one of us can be there all the time right now.

As for the drunk in the other car, he better be driving something BIG, beacause I drive a 3 ton Suburban. I don't got a lot to worry about there.

Plus, I'm a very good driver. I drive slow on the driveway.

[(:)]

The sleepovers are just a bit too far, need to let them be trusted in that area. If you over protect them much past age 13, they will will will will will will Rebel on you!!!!!!!!! I will garuantee that!!!!!!! give them some pepper spray and tell them to keep it handy. Dropping off at the movies around age 12 should be fine. follow them in and out of the theatre. leave them there then! The longer you control them, the more they will rebel. If you controll them less around 12-13, and they do rebel against what you have taught them they will come back around by age 19-21, usually. Except for the sleep-over thing, right now you are doing a fine job. Raise them in a good bible-believing evangelical/baptist church. They will turn out great. The bible says " train up a child in the way that he(she) should go and when he is old he will not depart from it."
Just My Experience having gone throught the controlling not too long ago!
-Chuck
[sniper]
I can recommend some great books on parenting, I work in a bookstore, just give me an e-mail at
[email protected]

My baby girl is 19 now  and a junior in college....but Daddy is still there a little bit...she carries the Glock 17 I taught her to shoot. Woe unto the bad guys!!

Thug...you`re doin` it right!  my wife & i were the same way, and there are no ill effects for it now...(both mine are over 21) actually, we`re probably closer now, and hell, i still like to know where they are, but they do have thier own lives....we had a suburban too....packed most of the teams to a LOT of ball games.....(daughter still plays softball).....keep it up!!!!!!

I've been following this thread and there have been many thoughtful replies.

I have no real advice other than be mindful of your children at all times, and teach them to be wary of inappropriate contact with strangers as well as acquaintances. BUT most of the horrid instances mentioned about kids killed, raped or worse, are anomalous. These unfortunate incidents are out of the ordinary and don't happen very much, indeed they are rare- just as school massacres and guys going postal are quite rare, yet, they still make the lead on news bulletins and the six o'clock news- Why? because fear sells papers and TV commercials, that's why.

I have three kids, the oldest of whom will be nine in a few weeks. I have tried as best as I could to world-proof him, since it is a fool's errand to try to child-proof the world, as our liberal statist gun grabbing colleagues would attempt to do. It doesn't mean that I don't watch out for him any more, nor that I let him wander everywhere, but... at some point, we have to let go, at least by degrees. (Easier said, than done...) I have to know where he is going and who he is with, and if there are any changes, he MUST OK it with me or face the consequences. And I DO check up on him, a lot.

With public restrooms, he goes in and out by himself, unless it is very crowded, then I go with him.

I also have another son who is 5, who goes into the public restrooms with me, and a 3 yr. old daughter, who is very independent, and likes to go into women's bathrooms by herself, if nobody else is around. (Doesn't happen very often, and I wait by the door and call in to see if she's OK.) It's a tough call sometimes- the oldest goes in by himself, but I still watch the door- and my watch- and he knows it.

But later on.....

When my daughter reaches dating age (16....) I will be cleaning the Armalite or some other such gun, on the dining room table, when he comes by, the only word I want to hear from him, as I let the charging handle slam forward (just checking the operation, natch...), when I ask him when he'll bring my daughter back, is: "Early" :^).....then I'll be a happy dad.

[b]heck yeah it would have made a difference.[/b]  how long does it take a 12 year old (i think that was her age) to go to the bathroom?  a lot less time than it took for her to get beaten and raped.  after a certain amount of time daddy would have gone in to see what was up, knowing it doesn't take THAT long to go to the bathroom.  at the least he would have called her name.

result:  one safe child, one dead perv/perp.

from your description, i think you're doing fine.  with a few minor exceptions.  the 9 year old should be using the ladies' bathroom.  it's not unheard of for girls just a year or two older to be starting puberty (if you catch my meaning) and she can't be using the guys bathroom.  not to mention, she's starting to feel like a little lady, and using daddy's bathroom is so uncool.  [;)]  and any gentlemen using the facilities may not be comfortable with such an older female child in there.  not that their comfort is the main point, but you know what i mean.

secondly, i can see not feeling great about letting her go over to another's house, but what is wrong with having her friends over at yours?  worse case scenario, friend(s) start exhibiting unacceptable behavior and you call the parents to have them pick up the kid(s).  it's still pretty much in your control.  sleepovers are big deals to 9 year old girls.

point being, they're both going to have to grow up some time.  gradually is the way to go, i guess.  little bit here, little bit there.  if you taught her well, she'll use it.  i did, despite temptations.  

Thug, I, and I think most others here, genuine admire you for your commitment and defense of your children.  There also seems to be a sentiment that the sleep overs are perhaps a bit of a stretch.  My daughter is 3 so I don't have the 'that age' experience, but I  have half sister of 9, so she talks to me much more than a daughter of 9, i would presume.  (i just hit 30 BTW ).  I can tell you my sister was brought up in the very fashion but is really pushing out for some room.  

The best thing you can teach your children is common sense.  With that they will follow you in understanding why you do these things.  They will appreciate you for it as long as they know it is not a controlling posture.

Personally, the sleep over will be needed.  Start by hosting it rather than sending them off.  You get to be the cool dad that way.  and I think the bathroom thing (at least for the 9er) is a stretch.  you are approaching prepubesence (sp?) and there are things you will not be (welcomed) there for.  Wait out side.  Watch who goes in and out and time it.  Or send them together.

All in all, my hat is off to you.  I do as much growing as my daughter does.  Amazes me more people aren't as you and I in raising their children.

Cheers!
Zazou

95thFoot, very good post.

However, I don't believe in "anomalous" instances, or "unfortunate instances out of the ordinary".

I wouldn't "clean" my guns in front of one of my daughter's prospective suitors. If my words and demeanor couldn't drive the point home, then the threat of force wouldn't go much further. Trust me. I can be a scary guy when I need to be.

I don't believe in "It can't happen to me".

I believe in " It CAN happen to me, and if I'm around long enough, it probably will, and when it does, someoneone's going to get a BIG fucking surprise!"

This is the city. Indianapolis, Indiana. I work here... I carry a gun.

Da, da da , da...

da, da da da, daaaaaaa..........

By ripping off Dragnet, I don't mean for any of you to infer that I'm a cop. I just carry a gun.

Oh no! Not the birdie boiler!

Yes, I was/am serious.

OK man, you will make your daughters boy friends talk to you first? Hmm.. that's gonna go over well with a 13/14 year old... especially with a 16 or 17 year old.

Have fun having your kids hating you/hanging with wrong crowd/drinking/doing drugs/having whoever the hell they want as a boy friend.

Because it WILL happen if you don't come to reality, and LOOSEN THE LEASH!


If someone told me who I could or could not date, you know what I'd say?      F*** YOU!


People have to have there own minds, be themselves, and experiment. If you "try" and stop that, you'll regret it.



Captain Obvious


EDIT: I also thought I should point out this:



Your kids need to find their own way too. Can't Hold there hand for ever. They need to screw up too. That's how they learn.

I would have never guessed Cap'n O. was such a free spirit.  Cap'n do you have any kids or are you still one yourself?

I agree with this i have a 14 year old thats horny has hell i have to watch her like a hawk
to make shure she does nothing stupid like having sex, getting knocked up at 14 and having a Kid maybe that's alright with some of you but
iam NOT going to let this happen! has forthe 5 year old she does not stay or go with anyone without my knowledge i take her to the bathroom myself earlyer and let her use the stall's know
she's a little older and i let her use the womans restroom but i stand right there at the door if she come's out i will know about it.
GovThug: you have my vote, and blessing's 100% you love your kids that much to protect them, this make's you a good man.

No, I do not have any kids yet, and haha.

I do however know for a fact that if my parents would have/did that to me, that is what I would do. That IS what everyone would do, eventually.

Good point- esp. here in MA, where it could backfire, if the kid runs home and tells lib-dad and lib-mom that I "pointed" a "machine gun" at him... BUT the sight of his date's dad cleaning an AR will serve as a very good Rorschach test for anybody coming in my door who thinks he is going to lay his hands on my daughter. (If he thinks that, he has another thing coming....)

Likely my daughter will have filled him in on what kind of guy I am, and maybe Junior will turn out to have a healthy interest in guns. Well- I can only hope he reacts the kind of way I like to see- or else.





I don't think it can't ever happen to me or mine either, but unlike Indiana, Massachusetts has a wacky, capricious, corrupt system of discretionary CCW based upon the say-so of the local PD chief- in my town, I can own a pistol and shoot it, but not use it to defend my life or a family member's, unless I am at home or at a range. But in the next town over, the CLEO hands out CCWs (LTC-A ALP) like party favors- go figure! So, I try to deal with the situation as it now lies, and am trying to work up from there.

Maybe I should move to the next town over, but with my luck, by the time we do that, the current chief will retire and be replaced by an authoritarian gun grabber, as we have here in the town I live in now...

Nah, you are a normal parent.

GovtThug,

I'm beginning to find you a bit frightening. You say you're going to "keep" your daughters from making your mistakes.

Wow.

You seem to be trying to raise "perfect" people. Stepford children??
Good luck!!!
Everyone in this world needs to learn to think for themselves and make their own mistakes and find their own way. It's called developing a "personality". Becoming who they are, not who you want them to be.

How on earth will they be able to function in the world without daddy's protection?
I don't think you're doing them any favors.
You're on the right track, however, in my opinion you're going overboard. Dangerously so.

I can't help but wonder what you'd do if one of them ever made a serious mistake... do you think they'd come talk to you, confide in you, ask for your help? I'm guessing not. Most likely you won't know anything about what they are doing or even worse, who they really are.

If I could raise my kids again, I'd do a few things different. One thing I wouldn't change is the way I've taught them to think/stand up for themselves, and let them experience life as it really is. They are now very capable teenagers that know right from wrong, have the ability to make decisions and they know even if it's the wrong choice, they can always talk to me. They are free to be themselves and are people I genuinely like to be around as do many others. And guess what... they went to sleepovers!

Life is full of really hard knocks. You won't always be there. Fact of life.

Best of luck.

Here's my 9 YO.  He wants to know what your daughter is doing Saturday night!

[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=127634&a=12866627&p=48165621[/img]

Just kidding!  He is too busy making straight A's(accellerated Math Magnet program), and he's in the middle of district 5  LLB 9-10 Allstar tournament!  No time for dating!  3 hits tonight and 2 sacrifice bunts in a double header, threw a guy out at home from center field, tagged a guy out trying to steal third, and scored 4 runs in two games.  He pitches tomorrow at noon. Dating?  I don't think so!  [8D]

If your daughter can throw a curve ball he'll follow her anywhere, though!

GovtThug, I agree with you, with one exception:  9 years old is too old to be using the mens room.  As others have suggested, let her use the ladies room.  If she's not out in a reasonable amount of time, check on her.  My 7 yr old daughter uses the ladies room unattended.  My four year old boy does not use public restrooms unattended, mainly because he's four years old and would probably try to eat the "urinal candy".  

After two years, I will allow my kids to got to the nieghbor's houses to play, but only because after two years I feel comfortable with my neighbors.  I have family members and in-laws that I won't let my kids stay with.  

You can't be too careful.  I can tell you from first hand experience that there are some sick, twisted people out there.

If your kids were teenagers and you were still doing the same thing, then I would say you are over-protective.  I think what you are doing is just being a good parent.  If people don't like it, they can get bent.  

GovtThug:

You're not protective enough.  The kids don't know.  When their 9yr old friend vanishes understand(you will).

Teach them to yell-- "You're not my momy/daddy"
Teach them to kick and scream.
Teach them to throw table salt from the little plastic bags you give them.
Teach them E&E and passwords/codes.
Teach them where to go to get help and how to ask for it.
Teach them how not to be trapped.

Play Hide and seek, but with a life saving slant.

Tell them how much you love them and how important they are to you.

I'm in the same boat. 9 year old daughter... Just recently and with great hesitation I have let her go the park by herself. Even though the park is within sight of our house.

It's a fine balance we fathers have to make. If we put them in a bubble all thier lives, they'll be clawing to get out. If we cast off completely, too early, we're negligent. So you're right to be concerned. Loosen up little by little. Always be open to communication and watch for any changes.

You're doing the right thing by just expressing your concern. We have the right to be concerned but the little one has the right to strech her wings a wee bit. I have two windows facing the park. One has 7X50 binocs and the other is my Bushnell spotting scope. I'm not being overprotective but you're damn sure going to see me protecting what's mine. Good luck Dad

You are on target.

I have 8 children and a wonderful wife.  We homeschool, always have (Juggernaut graduated HS at 16 and is a 4.0 college student).

We teach them everything that they need to know at an age appropriate time.  However since we home school, the kids are not subjected to peer pressure of any sort, and it makes for raising beautiful young women and men.  They aren't naieve, interact well with adults on an adult level and none of them have "come home from school" and said the following
"I want a tatoo"
"I want to get my (name your body part here) pierced."
"I'm pregnant"
"I smoked (cigaretts, pot etc.)"

You get the message.  You're doing great.

Strong parents that are un-compromising in their beliefs and consistent in their parenting efforts raise extrordinary children.

Andrew Putnam

Hey Jug, we leave for the Gun show at 9!
Xanadu

GThug - you are a wise man.  Your children are your jewels.  Would you leave you most prized possession on your curb for someone to come steal?  As per your concern about abductions - you are on the money. I have been told by a Satanist (on of the top ones at the time - when he came in to get his computer fixed) that Omaha has 4 Satanic Churches in it - and this was over 10 years ago.  If Omaha, Nebraska has this many - imagine how many big cities have!  The top excorsist in the US - Malachi Martin (who recently passed away and whom I named my son after) in an interview said that these "Churches" sacrifice children - and must do so at least once a year.  You do the math yourself - it aint safe to leave your children alone.  Period.  I live in a small town away from the city - in a nearby town strangers from Omaha where photographing children and offering them rides.   I hope they realize that Iowa has concelled carry and that our county has the highest population of CCW holders - they may find out the hard way (pity that would be).  Keep em safe.  Home school would also be a good bet. (We do).