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Posted: 6/21/2001 5:34:33 PM EDT
Or any of the other members who have been in a similar situation. A large temp firm employs my wife. She went on a one week unpaid vacation. The temp firm "mistakenly" paid her for the 40 hrs she did not work while on vacation. The funds were direct deposited into our savings account, and we were unaware of the deposit. My wife received a phone call from the temp agency informing her of the deposit. She checked the account, and sure enough, the deposit was made. We did not spend the money. During the phone call, the person from the temp agency spoke to my wife in a threatening manner. When my wife told them she did not submit a time card for the week in question, the person said, "Yes you did! And I have your signature to prove it!" Although explicit details of what the agency was prepared to do to retrieve the money was never spoken, it was implied by the persons abrupt manner of speech. My wife returned the money to the agency this afternoon, two days after the initial phone call from the agency. My wife requested a copy of the time card that allegedly she signed while on vacation 750 miles away. The card has her signature and the supervisor’s signature, but has obviously been faked. Someone at the agency used a copy of the previous weeks time card my wife submitted. That card claims 32 hrs worked over 4 days, 8hrs per day, with 3 days lined out. The faked card has had one of the lined out days whited out, and logged 8 hrs, the total hrs worked has been whited out and changed to 40 hrs total. BUT... the supervisor wrote the total number of hours worked longhand. The original card is written Thirty Two Hours-->32 and the faked card is written Thirty Two Hours-->40. It looks like a 1st grader forged the time card. I really could care less about this if it would have been an honest mistake, but someone at the agency has falsified two signatures, and submitted the forgery to collect money from the company that contracted for my wife’s services, and then tried to blame my wife for the forgery. What recourse do we have??? Thanks for any info provided!! Semper Fi
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 7:18:03 PM EDT
You don't have any damages (except being pissed off) so you don't have any recourse. But, the person who did this committed forgery, which is a felony. Call the cops. However, I doubt if they will do anything . . .
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 9:19:36 PM EDT
Your wife has suffered damages. Her reputation is now suspect. The real question is... were any of these falsehoods published (spoken or written) to a third party? If so, defamation. Call your local bar association and ask for PI lawyer.
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 10:05:38 PM EDT
I'd respectfully disagree with leadfly. You would still have to show *damages,* for instance, that someone wouldn't give your wife a job because they think she's a crook based on this timecard thing. She's then damaged ($$$) by missing out on a job. Being pissed off, or other people learning about this short of public ridicule doesn't amount to damages. PI guys work on a percentage and I'd bet none would touch this. Which doesn't help you much, DPeacher, but seein' as you asked . . .
Link Posted: 6/21/2001 10:21:25 PM EDT
I don't see any damages to your wife or you. I believe that is a fogrery, and is a crime, regarding the time card. Contact the supervisor, see what they know about this. Why did they get so huffy with your wife to start with?? It sounds like she would have just given the money back if they asked. Direct deposit, in most places nothing prevents someone who can deposit money into your account from also withdrawing money. There hjave been cases here of "over-payment" by employers who corrected the mistake be withdrawing monies far in excess of the dispute from the employees account. Is this a national temp agency? If it is your wife could complain to the regional manager, both for the way she was treated while on the phone, and for the forgery.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 5:23:51 AM EDT
Direct deposit, in most places nothing prevents someone who can deposit money into your account from also withdrawing money
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Actually, you can set it up with your bank to ensure money only goes in through direct deposit, and nothing out.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 6:00:17 AM EDT
Someone committed FORGERY, which in GA is punishable by a sentence of 1-10 years-FELONY. Hand writing samples can be taken and submitted to a crime lab to determine who this person is. Depending on who the forgerer is than you may or may not have a law suit against the company. ie: President of company.... It sounds like the forger received NO FUNDS and thus one must ask themselves why was this done in the first place? Did the supervisor make an honest mistake, forgetting your wife was on vacation--not likely since their signature was forgered or was someone attempting to harrass your wife? Who has been giving your wife problems prior to this situation? or was someone attempting to make more money for the company--the most likely senario. I have seen cases of over billing before by owners of companies--one sure sign of this will be if they do not wish to follow up on the matter any further... My 2 cents
Originally Posted By DPeacher: Or any of the other members who have been in a similar situation. A large temp firm employs my wife. She went on a one week unpaid vacation. The temp firm "mistakenly" paid her for the 40 hrs she did not work while on vacation. The funds were direct deposited into our savings account, and we were unaware of the deposit. My wife received a phone call from the temp agency informing her of the deposit. She checked the account, and sure enough, the deposit was made. We did not spend the money. During the phone call, the person from the temp agency spoke to my wife in a threatening manner. When my wife told them she did not submit a time card for the week in question, the person said, "Yes you did! And I have your signature to prove it!" Although explicit details of what the agency was prepared to do to retrieve the money was never spoken, it was implied by the persons abrupt manner of speech. My wife returned the money to the agency this afternoon, two days after the initial phone call from the agency. My wife requested a copy of the time card that allegedly she signed while on vacation 750 miles away. The card has her signature and the supervisor’s signature, but has obviously been faked. Someone at the agency used a copy of the previous weeks time card my wife submitted. That card claims 32 hrs worked over 4 days, 8hrs per day, with 3 days lined out. The faked card has had one of the lined out days whited out, and logged 8 hrs, the total hrs worked has been whited out and changed to 40 hrs total. BUT... the supervisor wrote the total number of hours worked longhand. The original card is written Thirty Two Hours-->32 and the faked card is written Thirty Two Hours-->40. It looks like a 1st grader forged the time card. I really could care less about this if it would have been an honest mistake, but someone at the agency has falsified two signatures, and submitted the forgery to collect money from the company that contracted for my wife’s services, and then tried to blame my wife for the forgery. What recourse do we have??? Thanks for any info provided!! Semper Fi
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Link Posted: 6/22/2001 9:40:23 AM EDT
You NEED damages to have a viable action. A crime was committed, but your wife was NOT damaged in any way. She did not lose her job or any income. Her reputation appears intact as she was not fired/demoted/ or anything. You must be able to prove damages to prevail.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 10:12:27 AM EDT
Stop practicing outside your state, everyone. In my state, we have the big three. 1. saying a woman is a slut. 2. saying someone sucks at their profession. 3. saying someone is a criminal or did a criminal act. The big three get you past the whole 'proven damages thing' in this state. You need to call a decent PI lawyer in your state, and find out what the law is. There is a chance you can file, and if the card is as bad as you say it is, they may settle. Make sure your lawyer sends a 'we may sue' letter, referncing the card as evidence, if your state has the right vanishing evidence rule. That helps a whole lot when the card disappears before discovery in this state.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 10:32:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2001 10:31:02 AM EDT by slefelar]
I don't understand the motive of an employer to forge a time card for a temp. That would only result in the employer getting charged for time not worked. No benefit to the employer that I can see. Of course the temp agency would have a motive to do so, becuase they get paid a heafty cut on top of what the employee makes for all hours worked. But why would they alter the time card and then get upset at your wife? Strange. I agree with happy shooter that if you were able to demonstrate that the temp agency informed the employer or anyone else that your wife engaged in fraud, misconduct, etc., she would have a valid defamation claim. Damages are assumed in cases like this, and frankly, I would pursue it (not for the money, but for the principle). I do not agree with Happy Shooter with regard to his advice to get a PI lawyer. Most PI lawyers I know would not know a defamantion action if it bit them in the butt and are focused on more physical and emotional type injuries. I would recommend a general practice type of attorney. Not one of the ambulance chasers on the back of the phone book.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 12:05:40 PM EDT
Happyshooter I still disagree. My state also has slander/libel per se, as do most, I suspect. It also has a common interest privelege, ie statements made without malice to someone with an identical interest are not actionable. This applies to coworkers, and is very broad in my state. Add to this the good faith basis for the statements, there WAS a forgery re the time card, the only question was WHO committed the forgery. Clearly the worker would be a suspect to any reasonable employer. After the investigation, she was not fired or harmed in any way, further supporting its actions as based in good faith. Also, who else heard this slander? Anyone? Slander must be published to be actionable. Since she didn't get fired/demoted or ANYTHING, at this point it seems that nobody else heard it. Which brings up the swearing contest. Rest assured the speaker will NOT tell the story the same way as DPeacher's wife. Who will the jury believe? This is a BS case and only an ambulance chaser would try to make a mountain out of this molehill. Punitive damages awards in cases where there are zero actual damages are either very small or reversed on appeal. I PRACTICE business law, including employment law, EVERY FRIGGING DAY. I'd welcome defending a company against this case. It sucks as a plaintiff's case. Oh, one more thing, if you do hit for moneyt, it better be a big payday, because anybody who thinks they can beat their employer in a lawsuit and stay employed afterwards should talk to a few former workers who took the same path. Also, generally speaking, conservatives and libertarians, as MOST (but certainly not all) gunowners are, usually don't look at every perceived slight as a potential lottery ticket, not to say that you did, DPEACHER, as I feel your question is weel posed. It is those who urge contacting a lawyer, now that you have your advice, that I address this observation to.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 12:51:40 PM EDT
I don't see much of a difference between an ambulance chaser and a big firm corporate lawyer. At least the PI lawyer is trying to take money our of your front pocket and not your back one. Hey Citgrad, how much does your firm charge its clients for a page of copying?
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 2:07:41 PM EDT
Kikomax We DON'T charge out clients for copying, genius, but even if we did, you see KINKOS handing out copies for free? Why should a law firm? Is that how you think a building full of people making $200 an hour makes money, by overcharging for copies? I'm not a "big firm corporate lawyer," whatever that is. I practice in a small firm defending large corporations against lawsuits by people who claim sex harassment, wrongful termination, slander, discrimination, etc. I don't get your "pocket" dig, but maybe I'm slow. I charge my client for my time spent working for them. It took a lot of time and money to get my law degree, more time to pass the bar, and, in the scheme of things, not a lot of people have such qualifications and abilities, let alone a specialty in the area my client requires. It always amazes me that when a guy charges $2000 to custom paint a Harley, or $2000 to build up a PSG1 clone, people say it's expensive, but worth it. Attorneys, however, are shysters, rip off artists. Cause I don't pick up anything heavy, so my job must be easy? If a corporation gets sued in my state, it MUST HAVE a lawyer to represent it. The companies I work for set my rates, I don't. Nobody but the company that hires me pays my bills. They only pay me to work on cases where they have been sued and must respond. So I'm trying to take money out of somebody's back pocket? Is it expensive? Ask them, they've never balked at my bills. Maybe they're happy that I blow about 80% of the cases out before trial with a dispositive motion. As to ambulance chasers, I don't mean plaintiff's lawyers in general, I mean attorneys who will sue for nuisance value cases to get "go away" money from companies/individuals they think will pay. Legalized extortion, if you will. If you can't see the difference, oh well.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 2:32:37 PM EDT
Hey...you blow out 80% on summary as an employment defense lawyer? Dude, I'll hire you to come out here and do my work for me and still make a profit. Anyway, less sucessful defense firms may advise their client to settle when the case survives summary (disposition in this state) because it appears to be per se. All it would take was one comment from the temp place to the contract employer claiming she was the guilty one, and I think she has a good chance to survive it. As for people not suing... It is all we have left in this country to get back at folks. No one says they are sorry. You can't get into a fist fight. You can't kill em in a gunfight. The only way to fight and make someone in authority pay the least attention to how you were wronged is to sue. About 90% of our labor cases total BS--workers who did real wrong things and got fired for it and still get their jobs back 90% of the time. 75% of our employment civil rights cases are also total BS. So what? Folks have to have someone to cry to besides themselves...oh, and their employer. An employer who usually dosen't care in the least, or knows for certain what they are doing is wrong but are trying it anyway taking a gamble that the employee is too stupid or weak minded to sue.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 2:46:19 PM EDT
Doubt you could pay my salary and "still make a profit." As for your between the lines dig at my claimed success rate, screw you. Better yet, find an ex employee of one of my clients and take your best shot. BTW, so 90% of "your" labor cases are BS, 75% of "your" employment civil rights cases are "BS" yet it is doubtful to you that I'm successful in blowing such crap out the back doors of the courthouse? If you're a defense attorney, you should be MSJing most of those at a high success rate. If you're a plaintiff's attorney, "mercenary" is a kind description of somebody going forward with a case you know to be BS. So spare me the rah rah rally round the flag BULLSHIT about the downtrodden, OK. There's NOTHING honorable about going forward with a case that has NO MERIT. I've heard it before and it was BS that time, too.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 2:52:44 PM EDT
You people should be offering your services pro bono to a fellow gun owner.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 6:08:39 PM EDT
okay.. Its about 10 friday night, and I have assumed standard lawyer drink mode (aka had a few) 1. Ya, I was a little harsh, sorry. Good for you is you clear that many out. You deserve the pay, then. 2. If you blow out 80%, you the man! 3. You all don't got too much labor out there, the employer man always lose in arbitration, no matter what. 4. legal BS and real life BS is two totally different things. legal BS is you got fired, and your can't make prima facie cause you aint black enough, or you the only tribal member fired that year, real life BS is you got fired for stealing, but you are prefered status. 5. for all the real life BS cases out there, the court system is still the only recourse for folks. I was in our little tax court today out here (kind of a semi court deal) and for once we were on the petitioners side, cause he is well to do. The judge wanted to know why we were going the formal route, and I told him our guy wanted due process and justice. Everything got quiet. Everyone remembered what the system is supposed to be for. The court is for a person who was wronged to be heard. If the case is legally BS that don't mean its wrong, it could just mean the wronged guy needs a forum to fight. The black guy suing may be suing under a legal theory that he got fired cause he's black, but the real life it may just be that the employer fired him cause he wanted to screw some employees. That don't make the suit wrong, it makes the law stupid.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 6:17:46 PM EDT
Sure, I offer my services pro bono happyshootero for the good of happyshooter pay the hourly fee, you get the service. Do you ask a gunsmith for free repairs because you a gun owner? Do I ask any of the computer guys on here to fix me up a free system cause I shoot? I do okay, not as good as CITADELGRAD87, but my firm dosen't have his success rate and we aint in CA. I busted booty for 7 years and three months to get here (undergrad, law, and the bar). so did CITADELGRAD87 I deserve my fee. When it is time to do real pro bono, I check with the firm to see what charity needs some help. I helped the united way this year, next it will be someone else. (note--the county that I helped does not have the anti boy scout policy, I checked before I agreed to serve) One of the partners at my firm has the local NRA and clubs already handled. 10 hours of his time is worth thousands. What else do you want him to give gun owners? Buzz wearing off-heading for gray goose now--
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 7:09:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: 10 hours of his time is worth thousands.
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Ahh....... 10 hours of anyone's is not worth thousands; I don't give a shit who you are, especially a [s]liar[/s] lawyer.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 7:33:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chairborne Ranger: You don't have any damages (except being pissed off) so you don't have any recourse. But, the person who did this committed forgery, which is a felony. Call the cops. [b]However, I doubt if they will do anything . . .[/b]
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That is no lie. when ever they do anything but harass me because i speed 31 in a 30 or wow! i had tires slashed and whitnesses seen it done agh we cannot do anything! F*** that. iam done ranting.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 8:00:27 PM EDT
Happyshooter, HAPPYFRIDAY! Westcoast here, so I'm about 3 hours behind you, but I'll do my best to keep up. Truce? You're right, I don't do much (ANY) labor arbitration, and you're right, I've only seen 1 where the poor worker lost. But tell you what, I get'em AFTER the arb, when ol' wronged worker decides he's bulletproof and starts taking 3 hour lunches because he won at arbitration. Those are the ones that are like shooting fish in a barrel. Seems like we do agree that we work hard and that US getting $hit for making a living when that guy who just gave me an estimate to paint my house has a bigger place in a better neighborhood doesn't make sense to us. How come there are no plumber jokes? Talk about bend over! Ever ask your dentist for a freebie because you hang out together? I had dinner with my dentist and our wives last weekend, guess what, I get my teeth cleaned, he sends a bill, and I pay it. Lots of my clients are doctors (med mal is also a specialty). Guess what, they call me to talk law, they get a bill. I call them to ask a medical question, I get a bill. 1GUNRUNNER--I agree it seems like a lot, but that's what the big legal guns get. If you get your butt in a wringer, you had better hire the best money can buy.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 8:38:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87: 1GUNRUNNER--I agree it seems like a lot, but that's what the big legal guns get. If you get your butt in a wringer, you had better hire the best money can buy.
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And what's wrong with that picture?
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 9:39:03 PM EDT
Okie Dokie, let's run a bit with that logic. You're GONNA get in a gunfight. What gun do you carry? A cheap one? Jennings, Bryco? If I went through your weapons, I bet there's not a lot of "cheap" stuff. Sig, maybe? But they're SO EXPENSIVE. Wah! Pay to play. HKp7M8? Whoa, those BASTARDS want so much money! Need optics to bet your life on? Leup Mk4? OMYGOSH! They're overpriced? No, just expensive. Want a luxury car? Pay for a Yugo, drive a Yugo. Want caddy/lexus/Mercedes/you name it??? Then shut up and PAY FOR IT. When's that last time you had major repairs done to a vehicle? Did you pick the cheapest guy, or the guy that you trust to do it right? Why is it that lawyers being expensive raises your hackles but other stuff that's just expensive gets a pass? You want to go with a bargain basement lawyer when you need one, you'll get what you pay for, like anything else. Me, I know I'm good. I bet Happyshooter's a handful in a deposition. Don't look to either one of us to work cheap out of some "fairness" philosophy that only applies to lawyers. I'f I'm wrong, I'll starve. Guess what, I've been eating fine for 11 years now. But if you're wrong, well, see what the "cheap" lawyer can work out for you.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 10:25:25 PM EDT
Shit what was I thinking Cit. It's all perfectly clear to me now. Lawyers = good. Sorry I blew up, I don't know what came over me.
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 10:27:33 PM EDT
If you want revenge you can do this. Get all the facts you can about what was done, enough that you can prove that they actually did this to your wife, enough to absolutely prove to a court would be best. Then you go on the net and post what happened and don’t forget to name names. Do this on every pertinent site and newsgroup you can find. Mention that you are doing this as a warning to any one who is considering either working for or using this Temp Service. You can also put up flyers about what this person and company did. Just make sure you just tell the absolute truth and don’t add anything that you can not prove. As long as you only tell the truth and can prove that you have, the company can’t do anything to you. They can sue you but will not be able to win, since the fact that you only told the truth is defense enough to win against a charge of slander or libel. You will then have a malicious prosecution suit that you can bring against them at least I think you will, plus they will probably settle it all out of court in the first place, just to shut you up. Just be absolutely sure that you can prove everything you posted on line and said or you are in trouble. The truth shall set you free. Revenge is Sweet Sniper for Justice VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)
Link Posted: 6/22/2001 10:36:46 PM EDT
Hey Citgrad, where's MY pat on the back? I am a bottom feeding parasite too, dammit!!!
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 3:40:21 AM EDT
Howdy... the quality liquor really does the job, again, no hangover. CITADELGRAD87--we are go for truce. Do you guys have any workers comp stuff? We have two guys that only do that. You want to talk about bogus stuff. Wow.... 1Gunrunner--I am glad you have realized how good the legal system and its people are. Just so you know, 10 hours of a small town lawyer's time (the kind of guy who hangs a shingle out from an old house on main street and has one secretary) is worth $1000 or more. The same time from a mid to high level partner at a good firm is worth $2-3000. If the guy is in a very special or currently in demand field, try more like 4k.
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 7:27:47 AM EDT
1GUNRUNNER-- Wow. I've had an epiphany! LAWYERS=BAD. Vary bad. That's your frigging point? Try this one on for size: GUNS=BAD. Sound familiar?
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 1:50:38 PM EDT
I would really like to thank all of those who have taken the time to reply to my question. CitadelGrad87, Chairborne Ranger, NO-AR-:(, DocSwat, Happyshooter, slefelar, thanks for the words of advice. You folks didn’t have to provide any response at all. You worked hard to get where you are now in your profession, and you provided fair and honest opinion without sending a bill. Thank you so much! To those that chose to ridicule the lawyers among us, you should remember there are shitbags in every profession, including yours and mine. I went out on the web and located the Texas criminal code and studied its definition of forgery, and I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone at the temp agency committed a forgery in order to defraud this client of money. I would also bet this is a fairly regular occurrence at this branch office, and needs to be investigated. Also, we went to arbitration with the temp agency in a dispute over unemployment compensation two months ago. The ruling was in our favor even though the branch supervisor lied repeatedly under oath. So, it is also possible, although unlikely, that my wife may have been set up to take a fall. My wife was released from the client because the contract was completed, and after this issue was brought to our attention. When my wife went to the office to return the overpayment, she received a copy of the forged time card, and a receipt, before she would surrender the funds. My wife told the office supervisor she was going to take the copy and show it to the client supervisor. At that point, the office supervisor told her she was not allowed to return to the client because she was no longer employed there. It seems to me the office supervisor does not want the client to see the forged time card. I wonder why??? I am going to take this to a lawyer. A felony has been committed and needs to be reported to the authorities. I am not seeking any damages, only justice. Justice needs to prevail. Once again, thank you for your time and advice, and if you have anymore words of wisdom, I'm all ears! Semper Fi
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 3:44:46 PM EDT
DPeacher You, sir, are an honest man. I hope whoever did this pays the price. Good luck, and keep copious note of ALL events, including conversations. If this thing blows up and your wife loses her job over this, it will come in handy. At that point, you have a good suit. Again, good luck, sir.
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