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Posted: 6/19/2001 5:06:03 PM EDT
OK, I know this has been gone through before, so humor me. I'd like to get into a preban lower, and Olympic lowers are usually fairly cheap. But since their records were destroyed by fire, is there anyway to really verify that it was shipped as a complete rifle or configured into a preban before 94? And what about the old stop sign lowers? Where any of those shipped as stripped lowers? And what is the real possibility that someone would have bought a lower reciever back then and assembled it into a post ban configuration? I mean once again, theoreticly someone at the factory could have put an upper on a receiver before it left the factory, making it assembled before the ban. So what are we talking about here? I've even had an ATF agent tell over the phone that if the owner of a preban lower put a postban upper on it and then sold it to you, you couldn't put another preban upper on it. Is there anyway find a firearms history? Sorry about all the ramblings here, but am just curious as to your opinions on this.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 5:19:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By seamusmcoi: I've even had an ATF agent tell over the phone that if the owner of a preban lower put a postban upper on it and then sold it to you, you couldn't put another preban upper on it.
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that ATF agent doesnt know his laws once a grandfathered AW always a grandfathered AW
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 5:24:36 PM EDT
Look here.. [url]http://www.olyarms.com/serialnumbers.html[/url] Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 5:44:41 PM EDT
I call the ATF, and they said that in the absence of a factory letter, a signed statement from a dealer or previous owner that the rifle was fully assembled or part of a kit prior to the ban is considered legal evidence of pre-ban status. The agent said that such a document "would keep you reasonably safe." Notice I said 'evidence', not 'proof'. Only a factory letter is truly proof. Let's say that in a worse case scenario, that they trace the rifle anyway (very unlikely unless they're really fishing for something about you) and it turns out to be post-ban. You could show that document and say that you bought the rifle in good faith. They could then go after whoever wrote the document for perjury.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 5:55:52 PM EDT
Miss Cleo? [:D]
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 5:59:50 PM EDT
OK, is there some way to tell if any of the parts, such as tele-stock, are Olympic? The reason I ask this is that somebody I know has an Olympic lower that he says came to him with an Olymic pistol caliber upper and an Olympic collapsible stock. But once again, I guess somebody could have easily bought a stripped lower before ban, and assembled all that after the ban. Also on Olympics website, correct me if I'm wrong, but it states that the SGN receivers were only shipped as stripped lowers. And that they were cast. Two questions here. Do cast lowers suck? Once again, what's the chances somebody back then bought a lower and assembled it into a post ban configuration?
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 6:10:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2001 6:09:47 PM EDT by gus]
Uh Oh... here we go again... "There's no such thing as a new pre-ban lower" "The second ammendment doesn't specify what kind of stock the gun has" "It's up to the owner to prove status" "It's up to the ATF to prove status" "They will kick your door in and kill you with their MP5's if you get caught with an illiget pre-ban" "They will never prosecute you for possesing one unless they really want to hang you for something else" I'm sure I left some out. I think if the receiver in question was manufactured WAY before the ban (like late 1980's or earlier), they would have a hell of a time convincing a judge or a jury that it didn't become a rifle until after the ban. There are so many factors left up to the interpretation of the court that I doubt even ATF really knows the status of every lower they investigate (if any). By the same token, they can probably railroad you to prison if they want anyway, guilty or not. IT'S A BAD LAW TO THE WORST DEGREE! WE'RE ALREADY TAKING OUR CHANCES EVEN IF WE OBEY IT. Anyone seen Catch 22?
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 7:02:13 PM EDT
Correct me if I am wrong but, the SGW stop sign marked lowers were all preban and all forged. The "SGW" serial numbered lowers are post ban and cast. For instance, I have a SGW stop sign lower that is serial numbered "TBOR****" and is one of the remanufactured Berillyium Copper lowers. It is now forged aluminum and was originally shipped with an A1 upper receiver in 1991. It is pre-ban by date, only shipped (according to Olympic) coupled to an A1 upper receiver but there is no way to prove that it was manufactured as a complete rifle in the three years that it would have had to sit not even in the general vicinity of a parts kit. (If it was near its own parts kit, even unassembled, it would be considered a pre-ban. That right there shows how stupid this whole thing is.) All in all, who cares. There are holes big enough to drive a truck through on this issue and the BATF doesn't want to touch it because they know how screwed up the present ruling is, and they won't fix it by declaring the only legal and logical thing. They should statethat from now on if the lower itself was manufactured before the ban it is pre-ban. If it wasn't, its post. I am STILL waiting for someone to post a verifiable reference of a person convicted for a pre-ban configuration on a so called unverified pre-ban lower receiver.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 7:06:39 PM EDT
Thanks for the clear up on the stop sign lowers. And that's a good question. Has anybody been convicted of this?
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 7:20:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 7:37:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gus: Uh Oh... here we go again... "There's no such thing as a new pre-ban lower"
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Actually, there is such a thing. The Oly TBOR 1791 to TBOR 1991 SN lowers were made special to celebrate the Bill of rights. They were made with some kind of alloy that did not work out. That was in 1991. After the ban they realized they had them in possesion a whole bunch of Pre ban recievers. They destroyed them and remade them as standard forged lowers with the same range of numbers. Thus, a new pre ban [:)] Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 8:43:14 PM EDT
What you need to do is post this question over on the Oly board and email Tom Spithaour directly with the serial number. I have heard that there ARE some stop sign lowers that are post-bans. My rule of thumb: If the serial number shows that it was made at least 2 years (longer is better) before the ban then I would buy it. No one can prove in what condition it left Oly or in what condition it was sold. I would "think" that there are enough people out there who probably changed the configuration of the AR15's at least once during the time they owned it. I would stay away from anything made oh say Sept 1994, unless the seller had the original Oly build sheet and the original dated reciept from where it was bought. Check out the legal section, ask Troy. Wow, 11 posts and not one "Oly sucks" amongst them. [X]
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 8:50:27 PM EDT
Do you have a time machine? Tom Spitanhour -that's cute
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 8:52:59 PM EDT
Seriously ask Stokes - STOKES!!!!! WHERE YOU AT? - goto his forum.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:04:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By electricalspark: For instance, I have a SGW stop sign lower that is serial numbered "TBOR****" and is one of the remanufactured Berillyium Copper lowers.
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I also have a TBOR!
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 9:56:49 AM EDT
I own a brand new preban, made in 2000. I shipped Oly my preban 1991 lower. They destroyed it and "repaired" it by stamping the preban serial number/model on a new forged lower. Simple!
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 8:39:48 PM EDT
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