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Posted: 6/19/2001 5:37:43 AM EDT
....one heck of a gun collection. I was watching the History channel last night on the Holocaust, that was some SICK shit. After what they went through they should never allow themselves to be defenseless again. I could not believe how much they gave up without running or fighting back. At least put together a few guns and kill some German's. I would rather take a few with me.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:00:24 AM EDT
Yeah, unfortunately running wasn't an option for most Jews. With the world in the worst part of the Depression, most countries including the USA did not want even more refugees flooding into their boarders. Anti-semitism played a big part too. The only options left for the Jews was either fighting or subjugation. But how can you fight when your guns were either taken away or voluntarily surrendered. It's gun control's "finest" hour. 6 million+ Jews, another million or so gypsies and others with maybe about half of this number being able bodied males, would have made a formidable "militia" if they only had the means to defend themselves.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:04:09 AM EDT
Formidible indeed Sodie. MOLON LABE!!
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:08:53 AM EDT
You seem to know eveything. How do you know that there werent cases of people fighting back with shovels and 12G shoguns or whatever they had. The US people are fortunate to live thousands of miles away, you have time to make decisions. You guys only entered the WW2 AFTER your country was attacked. The Brits fought from 39 to 41 alone against overwhelming odds trying to defear them. What would have been the case if the USA would be situated where Poland is ?.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:18:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GeoffM24: ....one heck of a gun collection. I was watching the History channel last night on the Holocaust, that was some SICK shit. After what they went through they should never allow themselves to be defenseless again. I could not believe how much they gave up without running or fighting back. At least put together a few guns and kill some German's. I would rather take a few with me.
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[url]www.jpfo.org[/url]They remember. The Warsaw Ghetto is an excellent example of armed resistance, even though they were finally overpowered(burnt the place IIRC)- there was no disgrace of capture, torture and rape. This is one of my best reasons to own firearms- because I don't think it couldn't happen again. Geoff, BTW, should those collections of guns be pre- or post ban configured? Hmmm? Juggernaut[%(]
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:20:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tuukka: You seem to know everything. How do you know that there weren't cases of people fighting back with shovels and 12G shoguns or whatever they had. While I'm sure there was some minor resistance groups there were no well organized revolts. Chances are they did not have any 12 gauge shotguns or any guns since they had long been seized. The US people are fortunate to live thousands of miles away, you have time to make decisions. You guys only entered the WW2 AFTER your country was attacked. The Brits fought from 39 to 41 alone against overwhelming odds trying to defear them. What would have been the case if the USA would be situated where Poland is ?. Good question, I would guess we would have seen casualties similar to Russia, but not as bad. The Russian army was slow to mobilize against the unexpected German attack. The Germans had underestimated the might of mother Russia and the number of soldiers and tanks they had. Hitler even conceded that he had seriously underestimated the Russian forces. You also need to remember that the US had a much larger army and arsenal then any of the smaller European counties that were take over in days by the Germans.
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Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:22:23 AM EDT
The are definite advantages to pre ban when hunting humans.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:23:14 AM EDT
Geoff, but would have the forces been able to deploy quickly when attacked with the Blitzkrieg tactic.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:28:24 AM EDT
...or would we have been able to build such a massive force as we did? The Germans knew we would win, when they saw a new arms factory in CT producing weapons 30 days after breaking ground. What if the US was geographically where Poland was? I bet, with a neighbor like Germany, we wouldn't have allowed ourselves to become so weak.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:28:54 AM EDT
The problem with the Germans was they tried to bite off more then they could chew. When attacking a smaller country you could overwhelm it very quickly. The advantage of Countries like Russia and the US is it would be very difficult to set up supply lines to go deep into the country. You would see heavy causalities at the entry points though. The blitzkrieg suffered huge losses in the hard Russian winter as they got too far from home and it became harder for them to survive. You just can't be everywhere at once.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:35:31 AM EDT
...and that whole, "kill every jew in the world" thing probably wasn't such a good idea either.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:40:19 AM EDT
In response to Tuukka, we would have kicked some serious Nazi ass. We don't need to go to an armory, most of us can be ready to go in 30 minutes. As for England, see the ads in the NRA magazines from that time from the Brits begging for Americans to send any arms they could spare. And we commited plenty of $$, equipment, and even men (merchant marines) through the lend lease act. No flame intended, but Europe can kiss our collective ass. We save their shit twice in one century ( and we'll do it again!) and they shit on us.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:42:41 AM EDT
I am sure that you've heard of the Vietnam war and Afghanistan? These were tiny little backward countries that kicked the crap out of the worlds greatest superpowers. Yes, they took a large number of casualties but nowhere near 6 million. And in the end they won. It just shows you what a fighting spirit and a gun can do. Neither component is worth spit without the other.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 10:56:38 AM EDT
The only options left for the Jews was either fighting or subjugation
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The Jews as a whole took a third option...denial.
Good question, I would guess we would have seen casualties similar to Russia, but not as bad. The Russian army was slow to mobilize against the unexpected German attack. The Germans had underestimated the might of mother Russia and the number of soldiers and tanks they had. Hitler even conceded that he had seriously underestimated the Russian forces.
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The thing that Hilter screwed up was 1.starting too late in the season. 2.Deciding to take control of southern section of Russia instead of pushing on to Moscow with Army Groupe Centre. 3.When the Russians started their counteroffensives, Hitler forbade retreating from areas that held no significant value thus wasting valuable troops. The only problem the massive Russian army caused the Wermacht in the early opennings of Barbassoa was the amount of prisoners they captured. By November with their encirclements, the Germans had captured 3.1 million prisoners destroying 30 divisions in the process.
The blitzkrieg suffered huge losses in the hard Russian winter as they got too far from home and it became harder for them to survive.
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While that is technically true the real reason for the eventual failure of the blitzkreig was that the Russians found a way to defeat it. By laying out an outter defense to get the Germans to commit to an area of attack, the more heavily armed secondary defense would meet the incoming blitzkreig as it came through the opening. Thus the quick action needed for the blitz failed to happen. A good story to read about Jews not giving up is to read about the breakout from Treblinka.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:04:13 AM EDT
I am sure that you've heard of the Vietnam war and Afghanistan? These were tiny little backward countries that kicked the crap out of the worlds greatest superpowers. Yes, they took a large number of casualties but nowhere near 6 million. And in the end they won. It just shows you what a fighting spirit and a gun can do. Neither component is worth spit without the other
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That comparisson does not really apply to the Jews of WW2. You are comparing a foreign country trying to set its will against the population. A good comparisson would be say during the Iran crisis, the U.S. decided to disarm all Iranians. Do you think during this patriotic outpouring for our boys held hostage in Tehran that we would have cared if a few Iranians had their guns taken away...of course not. Same thing with the Japanese during WW2. They could not even keep radios. In WW2 the Germans, Poles, Ukranians as a group cared little for the Jews and were glad to see them gone. If the population as a whole does not care for some minority...that minority is screwed.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:04:45 AM EDT
Gunmonkey, sure you would have kicked ass with a 03 Springfield against Panzer IVs and Ju-87 Stukas, sure you would have.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:09:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:10:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2001 11:11:10 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
Hey striker, do your job. axe the cartoon. Makes us look bad. (Thanks)
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:14:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:17:11 AM EDT
Post by tuuka -
You guys only entered the WW2 AFTER your country was attacked. The Brits fought from 39 to 41 alone against overwhelming odds trying to defear them. What would have been the case if the USA would be situated where Poland is ?.
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Did you want the US to enter the War BEFORE their Country was attacked? From 1939 to 1941, the United States was the arsenal of democracy, supplying just about everything that Churchill requested of them. Remember Lend-Lease? Remember the 50 destroyers that were lent to Britain to shore uptheir coastal defenses? Remember the NRA's collection of weapons for the British Home Guard. Only Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and Hirohito did anything wrong. Let's not forget that they were the enemy. Eric The(NeverAgain)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:31:39 AM EDT
The Jews in Nazi Germany should have petitioned for assistance from the humanitarian UN.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:34:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:37:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:38:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2001 11:55:23 AM EDT by Striker]
[blue]Your move![/blue]
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 12:01:36 PM EDT
Hitler was an idiot. Had he not wanted total military control all of Europe would be speaking German.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 12:04:08 PM EDT
if you look at the israelis today, many probably do have quite a collection. when you're talking about poland during the 30's its an entirely different situation. were jews even allowed to own guns during that time?? they weren't even allowed to own farmland in many cases which is why most had to find city employment. but what if through the black market they had collected guns? if the polish government, local law enforcement, and the press ever caught wind that the jews were stockpiling weapons it would only fuel the existing polish antisemitism and paraniod conspiracy theories. can you imagine the headlines? "jews stockpile weapons to overthrow polish government". there probably would have been a confrontation with the polish police and jews would have died trying to keep their guns as opposed to using them against the future german invaders. and in the end even if they had plenty of garden variety bolt action rifles, would it really have saved them against panzers, rockets, flamethrowers, and MGs? the germans had been training and brainwashing select groups of "soldiers" to kill civilians for years, developing the latest and greatest small arms and tanks, and fine tuning tactics. hitler would have spared no expense to put down jewish uprisings. either way, the jews of eastern europe were screwed. the only thing they could have done to escape harm would be not being there in the first place. many tried to flee before things got that bad, but boatloads of refugees were turned away by antijewish politicians in the us and canada.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:56:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tuukka: Gunmonkey, sure you would have kicked ass with a 03 Springfield against Panzer IVs and Ju-87 Stukas, sure you would have.
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Many of us feel that we may have to fight our own gov't. over issues of freedom. Our AR15s will be equally ineffective against todays armored vehicles, but we're not gonna lay down and take it. Germany knew enough to try to keep us busy by trying to encite Mexico against us.( to Mexicos credit they didn't take the bait). My point is that , yes, as an armed society we can deploy at a minutes notice (honored tradtion, dontcha know!?) We may be overrun, but we would make any invading force work and pay for it. How about this, if the US were attacked by say, the Russian Republic of Backwardia, would Europe come to our aid? We have commited troops to Europe many times. All we are asking for is a little respect, for our role in the past and our continuing role as worldcop. Granted, our view is skewed by our own lame media, but we see Europeans as gutless, ingrates. That may be ignorance on our part, and welcome any education you can provide us on the subject. We are a proud bunch here, but we can see different views if they are ponted out to us.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 4:51:05 AM EDT
Tuukka, Tuukka, Tuukka, Please lets get real. Of course we would not attack any armored vehicle directly. Did EVERY German drive a tank? Nope. The VAST majority were on foot and you know it.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 4:57:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DBrewer842: Sorry to let you know, but the UN was formed after WW2. The attempt for form "The League of Nations" after WW1 was a failure. However "The World Court" was in existence at the time. .
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Actually, Eisenhour SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED the UN in his letter to the troops for teh D-Day invasion. Ike was cool, but I don't beleive he could foretell teh future.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 5:31:40 AM EDT
Good Points Slip. A lot has to do with the upbringing of a people. Eastern European people did not play Cowboys and Indians, Cops and Robbers. We had a mindset in this country that made good fighters. My Great uncle was a Finnish Ski soldier, he fought. But in the ghetto, there were tradesman and merchants. They weren't ready to fight. As jews we stress education, you can take education with you when you flee in the middle of the night. Fighting back was not in the mind of most, if you suffer from centuries of genocide, you find it is easier to to flee and start over than fight. Remember that the Jews were being persecuted by the government. It is hard to fight the government. As an American my mindset is different than Europeans. I know what a chocholate torte is and how to strip down a 1911. Many of the Europeans are sheep now, that is the problem. And the Dems and their henchmen are trying to give us the same mindset. In NJ kids get suspended from school for playing cops and robbers during recess.....see anything coming?
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 6:05:48 AM EDT
Hitler was smart enough to use the u.s. "keep out" policy to his advantage.....and for some unknown stupid reason (hindsight) we believed him......things would have certainly been different if the allies would have taken active part in what was happening when it started.....instead, we let the japanese do it for us.....
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 6:31:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 6:34:54 AM EDT
We need to realize that in the beginning that many Americans supported Hitler. Henery Ford loved him, even wrote an anti semitic booklet and put it in the glove box of his cars. If the King of England hand't gotten the hots for a divorced American woman and abdicated, he was a strong supporter of Hitler. Where would England have been? By the way the English Crown are Germans.....Royals like to stay in their own circles.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 6:44:53 AM EDT
By the way the English Crown are Germans.....Royals like to stay in their own circles.
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Like the way in 1917 'Battenberg' got changed to 'Mountbatten.' Way to go Louis! Eric The(Saxe-Coburg-Gotha)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 7:08:56 AM EDT
Eric the Hun... My wife's relatives still live in Coburg! I visited last summer...She is a blonde, blue eyed beauty.... mean and stubborn too!!! Tukka... what was that you asked about the Americans...only entered the war after being attacked... what was the noble history of Finland at the time... started the war as Nazi allies, fought the Russians for a very short bit (and did well), then sued for peace and sat out the bitterest fighting, even selling out their allies, the Germans, during the post Stalingrad envelopment, to avoid the fight... We Americans are certainly guilty of the "casting rocks from glass houses".. we were ill prepared to fight the German war machine and they spanked us pretty good early in the war... but let's be careful how we cast dispersions, lest we expose our flank....
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 7:58:46 AM EDT
medicjim. I CANT BELIEVE THE BULLSHIT YOU ARE SPEAKING. Try TO READ your history books. Germany was far far away when we FOUGHT against the Russkies in the Winter War in 1939(ring a bell). We fought WITH the Germans, that is true. You call a war lasting from 1941 to 1944 a "short bit". We "sued" for peace and sat out the bitterest fighting, again an assumption made by a person who doesnt know what he is ramgling about. We made the peace treaty in late 1944 and WERE ORDERED TO FIGHT OFF THE GERMANS FROM FINLAND, we did not betray them. We were still fighting the Germans in Lappland when war in Europe had ended. Try checking your facts before making false claims medicjim. And the point i made earlier about the US being in the same place as Poland is that the speed of the German attack would have caught the forces pants down and it would have taken some time to recover and hit back, that´s all.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 9:53:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2001 10:03:30 AM EDT by medicjim]
Tukko Hmmmm..bullshit eh? Winter War? I didn't even mention that tactics course the Finns taught the Russians...It's not part of my reply. Is an opponent "good" when they can mow down wave after wave of poorly trained and armed "human wave" attacks. Running across snow covered fields makes one heck of a target. RE WW2 in Finland June 25, 1941 - Soviets bomb Finnish towns (I wonder why) June 29th, four days later...the Finns/Germans launch an offensive along Finn border..how did they mobilize and get the Germans there so fast? Dec 8, 1941 (the day after Pearl Harbor and 5 months since the beginning of your "war")...Marshal Mannerheim and President Ryti order the cessation of offensive ops and establish defensive positions.... Jan 18, 1943 -The siege of Leningrad ends. Finnish inaction has contributed to loss/capture of huge German forces...it's clear to the Finns that their ally, Germany, isn't gonna win in their neck of the woods.. overtures for peace are made.. Sept 1943 - Hitler issues a general order threatening to take Aland and Suursaari if the Finns go public with a plan for a separate peace. The TRUTH is that the Finns really stopped major fighting right after the US entered the war...wonder why? lost from June 25 through Dec 29th, 1941 - 25475 killed or missing (not wounded). Losses on Jan 1, 1944 are 38144, including the wounded! How much fighting really happened after Dec 29, 1941? You made the statement that the Finns were ordered to fight off the Germans and did not betray them...doesn't the fact that the betrayal happened in 1943 and the order to fight Germany in 1944 seem to take the wind out of your defense. The fighting with the Germans in Lapland seems more like saving face than throwing off an occupying army.. Germany was withdrawing as fast as they could, it just wasn't fast enough for the Finns, who needed to save face, so they attacked a beaten ally. just my perspective.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 12:01:54 PM EDT
Medicjim, try making those statements to Finnish vets who fought bitterly and against a much larger force, that they "stopped" fighting in 1941, yeah right. The Germans mined and burned large portions of Lappland, there went the last sympathy for many Finns toward them. The Allied Comission(mainly the Russian part) told the Finnish high command to fight the Germans off of Finnish territory. The peace in 1944 came in the nick of time, recent studies indicate that we would have been in the shit if the war progressed longer. What was important, was the saving of the independence at the time.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 12:22:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DBrewer842: Sorry to let you know, but the UN was formed after WW2.
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That is no excuse.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 12:28:53 PM EDT
medicjim knows his history.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 12:34:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2001 12:51:27 PM EDT by medicjim]
Tukka, I don't really feel the need to irritate any Finnish WW2 veterans... That really doesn't change the facts I presented...if you would like to dispute those, please do... In re-reading the whole thread, I realized I may have mis-directed a bit too much of my zeal at you alone... I guess the bottom line is that every one of our countries has something to be ashamed of... Let's just keep it all in perspective... Finland was caught in the middle during WW2 and fought to exist.... in doing so, they made some poor decisions. The Germans and the Russians made many, many more bad decision...so, in retrospect, you guys did pretty well for your 'neighborhood'.... Note - I have a feeling that any army foolish enough to invade a land filled with American citizens..no matter where it was located...would recieve a very cool welcome. There is something about this "land of the free, home of the brave" that makes us more than willing to kill to keep it... Heck.. one state's motto is "live free or die". Do you want to be an invader in a place like that? I sure as heck don't. It would make Chechnya look like a picnic.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 12:45:56 PM EDT
Medicjim, you seem to know a hell of a lot more about us, than a average US person. Our government made some bad choices, like many at that time. They chose a less evil choice by accepting aid from Germany and fighting beside them, but the other option would have been to deny the German aid and linger on by her self agains the Soviet army.
Link Posted: 6/20/2001 12:56:30 PM EDT
The classic NO WIN situation. I understand.
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