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Posted: 6/16/2001 8:03:16 AM EDT
AR-15.com provides a valuable service to a certain segment of internet users just like any other business you have dealings with. Every business has operating costs that have to be met to "keep the doors open". AR-15.com is a business. Make no mistake about that. It meets all the requirements to qualify as a business. For us to look at it or treat it as anything less, in my humble opinion, is an insult to those who have so graciously given of their time and money for the past several years. Like a parent who has spoiled their child we have been spoiled by having this valuable business service provided free of charge to us. Now we are asking our "parent" for something that is beyond reason financially. (There are some out there who apparently don't understand that the well is not bottomless.) That even the most wealthy parent still has to draw the line somewhere. The information I have gleaned from this site about AR-15's, mags, ammo etc has been invaluable to me. Maybe I am the only one who has actually derived a benefit that I know has saved me a substantial amount of money. Example, when I bought my first AR, an impulse purchase, the dealer who sold it to me told me that USA mags were the best. They come with a life time guar. Sounded good to me so I bought three for $30.00 EACH! Then when I got home I looked on the net and found this site. (When I bought my first AR I didn't even know USGI mags were available.) Needless to say the next week I returned the USA mags and got a refund. (A savings of $90.00. That is 18 months dues.) So, Goat Boy, treat it like a real business and save yourself all the expense, time and criticism. If you find that too many people have been "spoiled" and are still expecting something for nothing then give me a call and we can have a beer and talk about what could have been.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 8:52:59 AM EDT
"AR-15.com provides a valuable service to a certain segment of internet users just like any other business" Does AR15.com generate taxable income? Does AR15.com have any paid employees? Does AR15.com have periodic OSHA inspections? Now, it does provide a service... Free of charge.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 9:01:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 9:06:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ARChoo: "AR-15.com provides a valuable service to a certain segment of internet users just like any other business" Does AR15.com generate taxable income? Does AR15.com have any paid employees? Does AR15.com have periodic OSHA inspections? Now, it does provide a service... Free of charge.
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True, and I agree with what Tangle has to say about the issue. As I've said since (almost) day one, this site deserves a membership fee! Still, there are two rules of a business - 1.) Give your customer options 2.) The demand ultimately sets the cost, not the supplier. My argument is over point 1.) I simply can't do a 1-time $60 payment...not gonna happen. I'm already eating generic food and drinking water and Koolaid as it is, living in a room with the thermostat at a static 82 degrees. I'm the Jew - I know how to skimp! [;)] I need AT LEAST monthly payment options, for a few months, until I can cough up $60 - remember, some of us aren't self-sufficient yet. Point 2.), while I [i]somewhat[/i] disagree with the membership fee price, I am not bitching about at all. The price is basically for additional features, and we've already leeched the site quite a bit as it is. Far be it for me to be a hypocrite about the issue. Jewbroni~
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 10:09:56 AM EDT
I'm not bitching about it either. In fact I think it more than commendable that the Advil's, Goatboy, anti et. al. have provided this site free of charge and should be thanked for that. But let's put it in perspective. There are a lot of other sites out there on the 'net that provide the service for free. The fact is that many....most of the membership would simply move to one of those other free sites. If you prefer to place it in a business point of view let's put it this way...... There are several gun shops in town where you can go to bullshit with your friends, get deals and find answers. One of them decised to start charging a cover charge. Are you going to still patronize that shop? Most people will not...especially when the others offer essentually the same thing. But before anyone goes off on this too much it is my understanding that the plan, if it is carried through, would not require everyone to pay to visit and post on the site. The members that do pay would simply receive more perks. That would mean, to me at least, it would be going to your same old gun shop but if you wanted to see the really neat stuff in the back room you would have to pay for it and leave the others sitting at front on a cracker barrel wondering what y'all were lookin' at. Personally I hope that if "they" do decide to do with that there will be plenty of members that will pony up the bucks to help out. But do not try to tell us that it is a business and we are getting what we pay for. We can get the same thing else where for free.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 10:32:00 AM EDT
Yeah, but the whole deal is....You DONT have to pay if you don't want to. Everything will still be the exact same as it is now. If you don't pay, not one thing will change. You will still be able to access and post to the same forums you can now. If you do decide to pay, then you will be allowed to host some of your pictures here, you will get deeper discounts from some of the retailers that advertise on this site and you will be allowed access to NEW member only forums that don't even exist yet. If you don't pay, then things will stay the same. If you do pay then you will have access to new forums and discounts that nobody has access to yet. Before some of yall start complaining and get everyone else in an uproar you need to read what GoatBoy has said, maybe two or three times, that way you at least know what you are complaining about and you can get your facts straight. Basically its perks for members and the same ole, same ole for those who decide not to contribute. Michael
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 10:33:45 AM EDT
I think all of you are missing the point. if I am wrong Goat Boy then correct me. THIS SITE IS NOT FREE. Someone has to pay to keep it going. To all of you who say you want to keep it as it is, I think Goat Boy is telling us that isn't an option. Unless of course one of you want to pay to keep it on the net. He is saying that it is not mandatory. (Very generous of him.) That if you do join you will receive extra benefits. Yes you can go to other sites, maybe some of you should, yes you can go to the local gun shop and bs with your buddies. Does the gun shop owner keep it open at his expense just so you can go there and bs, or is it open because he runs a business and makes a profit I can't believe how selfish some of you are sounding. "Keep it the way it is and let Goat Boy spend his money and time so I can have something for free or I'm going to take my toys and go home."
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 10:40:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2001 10:58:04 AM EDT by Matt_S]
Here's my take on it, I agree with Beer Slayer, I'd bet 75% of our membership would bail. If it were required to be a member, I would. This is if it were required. However, since it IS NOT REQUIRED, and all you do it get extra services, I think it is a really good idea. Goatboy and the Avila's have gone out of their way to give us a great sight, I am willing to help out, and will probably pay the 60 bucks for the extra services. I really think the voluntary route is the way to go. Nobody is being put out, or forced to do anything they don't want to, or have to give up anything they experience now.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 10:45:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tangle S: I think all of you are missing the point. if I am wrong Goat Boy then correct me. THIS SITE IS NOT FREE. Someone has to pay to keep it going. To all of you who say you want to keep it as it is, I think Goat Boy is telling us that isn't an option. Unless of course one of you want to pay to keep it on the net. He is saying that it is not mandatory. (Very generous of him.) That if you do join you will receive extra benefits. Yes you can go to other sites, maybe some of you should, yes you can go to the local gun shop and bs with your buddies. Does the gun shop owner keep it open at his expense just so you can go there and bs, or is it open because he runs a business and makes a profit I can't believe how selfish some of you are sounding. "Keep it the way it is and let Goat Boy spend his money and time so I can have something for free or I'm going to take my toys and go home."
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This is exactly correct. Ed and Goatboy have been keeping the site going for quite some time now spending money out of their own pockets to keep this site up. It is now getting to the point where it is costing them too much money with all of the new equipment, time they spend etc. It is only fair that they receive an influx of cash from somewhere to keep the site up, which Im sure some of us get more enjoyment out of than even they do. I plan on becoming a member when all of the details are ironed out and I feel that is only fair. I have been a member since 1997 and I have learned virtually everything I know about AR15s from this site. I have also purchased and sold numerous things through this site. If you don't feel like becomming a member and getting the extra perks, then don't. There are plenty of us who will. But don't sit around and complain because Ed and GoatBoy are tired of spending their own money for the enjoyment of 10,000 members who contribute virtually nothing to the costs of keeping this site running. I can't think of a more fair way for them to do it. If you contribute you get extra options that are not available to those who don't. While it still remains open to those who either can't afford or don't want to contribute for whatever reason. If you still cant understand that this site costs a lot of money every month just to be here I think you need to retake your high school economics class. Pay close attention during the discussions of TINSTAAFL. "There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" Michael
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 10:46:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ARChoo: Does AR15.com generate taxable income? Does AR15.com have any paid employees? Does AR15.com have periodic OSHA inspections? Now, it does provide a service... Free of charge.
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I can't believe that you wrote that. This is exactly what I am talking about. There is substantial expense without any income. When that happens a business goes out of business. This site is NOT BROUGHT TO YOU FREE OF CHARGE. What part of that don't people understand? What does OSHA have to do with anything. I have never had an OSHA inspector inspect my office. AR-15.com is not a construction site or a mfg plant.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 10:50:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Matt S: Here's my take on it, I agree with Beer Slayer, I'd bet 75% of our membership would bail. If it were required to be a member, I would.
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But its not required for anyone to be a member! So what the hell does this have to do with the discussion? Yall are going to cause people to bail just by talking about it because they will think that if they don't become a member they won't be able to post to or read the forums. Some people already believe this as evidenced by some of the posts here and on the thread at the top. I think a law should be passed requiring everyone with an internet connection to successfully pass a reading comprehension coures before being allowed to surf the web.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 10:57:48 AM EDT
Ponyboy, Your right, I edited my the original intent right out of my post, let me get back up there and fix that!
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 11:03:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By Matt S: Here's my take on it, I agree with Beer Slayer, I'd bet 75% of our membership would bail. If it were required to be a member, I would.
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But its not required for anyone to be a member! So what the hell does this have to do with the discussion? Yall are going to cause people to bail just by talking about it because they will think that if they don't become a member they won't be able to post to or read the forums. Some people already believe this as evidenced by some of the posts here and on the thread at the top. I think a law should be passed requiring everyone with an internet connection to successfully pass a reading comprehension coures before being allowed to surf the web.
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Pony Boy, how many different ways can we say that IT IS NOT MANDATORY. You are exactly correct. It has been my experience that a large number of people on the net do not read what is typed they read what they want to be there. They put their fingers in motion before putting their mind in gear. I don't think that some even bother putting it in gear, soulds like it is stuck in neurtal. All we are asking is that everyone take the time to read each thread carefully for understanding of what is being said. Then make a thoughtful logical well stated reply and there will no longer be any confusion.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 11:09:38 AM EDT
Thanks Matt...I think that at this point misinformation is the worst enemy. I completely understand why some people would not want to pay to become a member. Many people only visit this site occasionally, some rarely post and many just lurk. If I were one of these people I wouldn't contribute either, it wouldn't make sense to. However, I feel that I owe it because I visit this site almost everyday and usually several times a day. I learn a lot and I try to contribute when I think I can help someone out with my knowledge or my opinon. I would hate to see this site become less of what it is now because of the financial strains of the owners. I would like to see it grow and become better and better with more features for everyone to use, but of course this takes money. I just think this whole thing needs to be clarified by Ed or GoatBoy so that everyone understands exactly what is going on and that you aren't going to be impaired if you don't become a member. Again, I can't think of a more fair way to bring in the kind of income that they need right now without alienating people. Michael
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 11:22:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 11:32:55 AM EDT
I havent narrowed it down yet, But I dont like you Tangle S. You got a kind of a know it all attidude and a big mouth.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 11:37:48 AM EDT
I like what GoatBoy is offering. I also think it's time that he got some support, other than the many thanks. We are all indebted to this site! Can anyone claim, that they haven't learned something here, that didn't save them money down the road? I also like the fact that nothing changes for the user! Those that join and get a membership, will have some enhanced features.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 11:49:26 AM EDT
Thank you for your most thoughtful and informative contribution to this topic.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 12:03:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tangle S: The information I have gleaned from this site about AR-15's, mags, ammo etc has been invaluable to me. Maybe I am the only one who has actually derived a benefit that I know has saved me a substantial amount of money.
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You're not alone, I can't count all the benefits I've received either directly or in-directly from this site. The F/S forums have helped me immensely in 'growing' my collection by allowing me to buy, sell & trade with people I can recognize as reputable. I personally feel indebted to this site, that's why I will pay. It's no easier for me to pay than others here so if it requires me to work a few more deals or sell a mag or two than so be it.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 12:21:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2001 12:20:35 PM EDT by Righteous_Kill]
Originally Posted By Tangle S: The information I have gleaned from this site about AR-15's, mags, ammo etc has been invaluable to me. Maybe I am the only one who has actually derived a benefit that I know has saved me a substantial amount of money.
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One thing you are missing, it’s the members that provided you the information, not the board or it’s owners. The board simply supplies the means and not the way. I’ve given my time and energy freely to help others on this board, and will not pay for the privilege of doing so. Sure you can give “contributors” some special features not available to the rest of the non-payers. That’s what assault web does. But I’m not going to hang around giving free support as a second class member. RK
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 12:48:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 1:22:03 PM EDT
I GIVE UP, SURRENDER, THROW IN THE TOWEL. Apparently there are those out there who would rather argue than take time to try to see and understand what Goat Boy is doing. So let the anger, insults and name calling begin. We all know that is the only way to address something we don't understand.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 2:08:40 PM EDT
I understand that operation of anything costst money. I will only say that I could not afford dues, although it would be worth it. I'm disabled and on a fixed income, and I'm lucky to even have this computer. If our church didn't help out, we'd be sunk.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 3:03:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tangle S: I GIVE UP, SURRENDER, THROW IN THE TOWEL. Apparently there are those out there who would rather argue than take time to try to see and understand what Goat Boy is doing.
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Thats not the problem. The problem is (with me anyway) you think you are the only one who understands it, and feel the need to post it informing us of our lack of understanding.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 3:52:37 PM EDT
If only you people could see the time and effort that goes into this site. Every time the server went down, Edward drove to the server location to get it back online. Not because members paid and deserve value for their money. The time and effort Goatboy spent on redesigning the forum engine and the plans on the board for further expansion of AR15.com. You people are witnessing the coming of age of an already great internet site. Think about what you're taking for granted. If paying 50 bucks a year helps keeping this website alive and kicking, I'd be more than willing to do so. Hell my monthly ammo budgets exceeds that three fold. Regards Kuiper
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 4:27:40 PM EDT
Hey, I have some great ideas for premium services that are workable and that people would actually pay for so the discussion boards could remain a free service. No one bothered to e-mail me though. If the powers that be are still interested, please contact me...
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 4:41:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: ...so the discussion boards could remain a free service.
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[b]The discussion boards WILL remain free under what he has proposed![/b]
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 5:11:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kevin@AR15com_1&2:
Originally Posted By trickshot: ...so the discussion boards could remain a free service.
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[b]The discussion boards WILL remain free under what he has proposed![/b]
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Thick Headed? Try an A&W Root Beer. Has anybody address my question about how much this site costs per month? My 'guess' is about $2000-$2500, but I could be well undershot. Goatboy? Jewbroni~
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 5:56:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2001 6:00:09 PM EDT by RipMeyer]
Originally Posted By Kevin@AR15com_1&2:
Originally Posted By trickshot: ...so the discussion boards could remain a free service.
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[b]The discussion boards WILL remain free under what he has proposed![/b]
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NOT true. Reread what you think you read. 3) MEMBER ONLY GENERAL DISCUSSION - [b]A new Member Only GD will be created[/b] (Moderator Free!!! I hope!) So that members can have a place to fall back for private discussions free from Trolls and trouble. (The same quality rules will apply!) - If there is a need for [b]further Forums, they will be created as well.[/b] This gives the impression that if you dont pay up you may miss out on some info. GD or otherwise.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 6:14:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 6:20:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 6:44:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer: NOT true. Reread what you think you read. 3) MEMBER ONLY GENERAL DISCUSSION - [b]A new Member Only GD will be created[/b] (Moderator Free!!! I hope!) So that members can have a place to fall back for private discussions free from Trolls and trouble. (The same quality rules will apply!) [/b] This gives the impression that if you dont pay up you may miss out on some info. GD or otherwise.
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I personally don't give a **** about any 'members only GD area', this GD area gives me enough of a headache already! From what I've seen nobody is gonna go hideaway, everybody loves to stir it up with as many people as possible. I don't see what's so wrong about helping the Avila's out and keeping the site alive for [b]EVERYONE!![/b] Everything is such a conspiracy anymore!
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 7:59:32 PM EDT
No good deed goes unpunished.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 10:56:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kevin@AR15com_1&2:
Originally Posted By RipMeyer: NOT true. Reread what you think you read. 3) MEMBER ONLY GENERAL DISCUSSION - [b]A new Member Only GD will be created[/b] (Moderator Free!!! I hope!) So that members can have a place to fall back for private discussions free from Trolls and trouble. (The same quality rules will apply!) [/b] This gives the impression that if you dont pay up you may miss out on some info. GD or otherwise.
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I personally don't give a **** about any 'members only GD area', this GD area gives me enough of a headache already! From what I've seen nobody is gonna go hideaway, everybody loves to stir it up with as many people as possible. I don't see what's so wrong about helping the Avila's out and keeping the site alive for [b]EVERYONE!![/b] Everything is such a conspiracy anymore!
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Relax Francis I was simply pointing out what some others feel. I dont have a problem supporting the site.(except $60 a year is a bit much to a tightwad like me)
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