Our fearless leader just screwed over the Navy  to get a few votes. I saw on TV that he has ordered the Navy to stop using that Puerto Rico island for practice. And I bet he will expect the Navy to do everything he asks of them in  case of a military conflict and if anything happens he will just blame the Navy instead of accepting the blame himself, what a President he has been so far. He is giving in to the Democrats and helping California with it’s power problems at least only a little help and He even wants to continue normal trade relations with China. What a man, what a President. He better be 100 percent pro gun and not try to screw us like he just did to the Navy or else next election I vote Libertarian.

Sniper for Justice          

VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

No flame intended, but why is this a big deal?  (concerning the island only).

The need for live fire and bombing practice.
This area is used to hone skills for close support of ground forces. Another capitulation to commies who use the cloak of enviromental
activism.

Could it be the Navy has found a substitute?
If we are betrayed it won't be the first or last time.

A live fire range.  Thus my ignorance is once again, slightly diminished.

We used an Island in the Hawaii Island chain.  Don't ask me to spell it.  Live fire is the only way to know if the munitions used will actually work.  

Maybe Dubya will use part of that $240 billion military fund to buy a new one.  Yea, right.

I wonder how many of our people will die needlessly because of this.

Sniper for Justice          

VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

For those of you who don't know the truth about Vieques. Vieques and its people have been mistreated. The Navy used to also use Culebra, until they accidently blew up the island's resevoir. It isn't like only one person has been hurt or killed. This last person is just the most well publiscised. There were numerous accidents and deaths resulting from Navy activities in Vieques during the Vietnam War, when they used it to train Seals and Marines for fighting in the vietnam war. Seems to me that Vieques and Vietnam are pretty different. They claim that there is nowhere in the world that is the same as vieques. If so, why other than landing troops on viewues would we need to bomb vieques. Vieques is a small island with Naval bases on either side and a small town in the middle. There have been alot of accidents, some of which involved munitions harming or killing civilians. The Navy has plenty of bases, including one in Navarre, FL that they use for training. Just because these people don't live in continental america, do they not deserve everything americans do. After all Puerto Rico is part of America. How do you think people would react if the Navy told the people on the ends of Long Island to move, so that they could use it for bombing. These people had lived all over Vieques for almost 500 years or more if their ancestors were Tainos. The U.S. received Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Phillipines in the Spanish-American war. What did we do with the other two. The were given independence with a (Platt) Rule that allowed the U.S. to step if there was a problem. The U.S. used this rule twice in Cuba prior to Castro. Why was P.R. not treated the same way. I actually wish that we still controlled Cuba and the Phillipines and maybe this american wouldn't have got his head cut off. But, americans shouldn't be placed in a position where they could easily be killed. Depleted Uranium munitions weren't supposed to be used on Vieques, but still somehow found their way there. Now, the U.S. Citizens (All Puerto Ricans are U.S. Citizens) on Vieques have a 10 times higher rate of Gulf-War Syndrom like symptoms than they did before D.U. was used. The people of Vieques aren't wiling to leave because Vieques is so beautiful, and has great beaches, OH YEAH that was before the Navy arrived. I'm not a liberal, but Vieques shouldn't be sacrificed. Perhaps we could use Long Island or even California. No, but there would be an outrage over such an action. Let's buy Baja, Mexico and use that peninsula and the islands near it for bombing. The Mexicans would be more than glad to leave. Hell, they've been trying to get into California for years. Synopsis: We need a place where the people are willing to leave so no innocent lives are endangered. We can sell the Navy land for a premium and use that money to buy a new place to use. I would like to buy some of that land and have a summer place on Vieques. My dad is from Georgia and grew up on Vieques during the early days of Vietnam. Most americans don't realize what is really happening. Unfortunately, the likes of Al Sharpton somehow found their way into the issue and it immediately lost credibility. The liberals don't care, they are just trying to get Hispanic votes.

I was in the Marine Corp for four years and I know how important it is to train.  It's a damn shame that our President that says he is "helping the Military" just screwed the Military.

In my humble opinion this is one of those no win situations, if you lived there, you wouldnt want live ammo going off near you either.On the other hand, we do need places for our soldiers to get the best possible training. It was a tradegy that in Vietnam, the only training some of the other boys got with their "new" M16s was to go to the edges of the compounds and fire a "few" rounds out into the jungle. If the m16 had been tested properly the Ordnance Corps would have realized that stick ammunition and chrome plating the chambers was the way to go. Several lives(many probably) would have been saved.


But, be thankful, at least we didnt get stuck with Al Gore!!

Best to all shooters!!

cc48510
Reciting the propaganda of those that don’t want the US to train its forces on Vieques really isn't necessary.  A few days ago Edward James Almos (SP?) was talking about all the health problems the people that live there have.  It was kind of funny that the people in Lawton, OK that live closer to the impact area, where a lot more of offending munitions are used more often don't have the same health concerns.

The fact is that the East Coasts CVBGs and MEUs no longer get a chance to train prior to deploying to real world hotspot, which can cost Marine, Sailors and as was seen in the recent "accidental" bombing of Airman and Soldiers.  By the way that CVBG wasn't allowed to do their work ups prior to deployment and is believed to be one the contributing factors to the accident

Stealth

I know the island you are talking about I can't spell the name either. It's something like Kahoalavi.  They don't use it now.  It fact they are in the process of removing UXO from the island so it can be returned to the locals. The work is being done by Parson/UXB at an estimated cost of tens of millions of dollars.

As long as we start with the left end of Long Island, there'd be no objection from this writer....

(snip)

Sacrifice California, and the liberal suburbs of Boston (Newton, Brookline, Chestnut Hill, Wellesley, Winchester, Needham, etc.....)- please!

Jim Beam- Your post brought back some great memories. I was a hospital corpsman stationed with the 3rd Marines @ Kaneohe Bay and one of my periodic duties was to accompany a naval gunfire control team and some Marines to that island in Hawaii. I know how to say it,but can't spell it, it's something like Koholawe. It was great having a whole island to ourselves. In between directing the gunfire from ships off shore we BBQ'd, played cards, hunted the many wild goats inhabiting the island, swam.......man, if only I knew how good I had it. Now I've got a real job[:(]. I'm not surprised to hear we gave it back to the Hawaiians, they said it was a historic burial ground and were really pissed (this was '79-81) and wanted us out. I know there was a lot of little grave markers scattered around the island so I guess it was true. I wonder what the Pacific fleet does now?

Hopple

Sounds like a lot of fun.  I haven't been to the island but I worked on a proposal for work for the UXO removal that parsons/uxb won. I was looking forward to spending several years in Hawaii.  The work was hard to scope since we had to be accompanied by Hawaiians and we couldn't move any objects or create benchmarks.

My twin brother was a Corpsman in a Marine Reserve unit 1988 to 1994.

Ahhhhhhh Kaneohe Bay.  Good surfing.  I was stationed there for my sentance.  Bless the Corpmen, for they had to deal with us.

[8P]

Didn't anyone hear the remainder of the report?

Bush signed off on permission to use the San Andreas Fault line in California as the new bombing range.  

Hope the members here to the west of it have good PFD's.

AFARR

Is there a way of calling the cops on him?

That's what the U.N. is for.

well on the west coast the navy and marines use san clemente island its just south of catalina.

I live in south oc and you can see the bombing range with my telescope on a clear day.

Kahoolawe

Ahhhhhhh! Thank you.  I was too lazy to pick up the atlas or type in the search.

Kahoolawe, good goat hunting there.

[8P]

Let the Navy practice on Washington D.C.

Washington D.C., Good pig hunting there.

The real reason he stopped the bombing is that there is a 2% chance that there is oil on beneath that island.
If they need to bomb an island why can't they use NJ?

Did you all hear Fat Albert Sharpton is on a hunger strike while he's in jail down there?

I'm gonna be pissed if he comes out looking like Martin Lawrence (god I hate him, but he was the first real skinny black guy I thought of) if I can't lose this comparatively small 15lb spare tire I've been carrying around for the last year.

You can do it AL! turn that can't into a CAN DO!

There is lots of land & open water that can be used for a bombing range. No need to bomb a small inhabited Island.

Nuke the whole island-then they cant say it is 'beautyfull'

They can practice bomb NY, LA chicago, and Miami

While in the Marines I spent 2 weeks training with live weapons on Vieques.  It was a joint operation with British, Brazilian, French and Dutch Marines.  

The island was perfect for amphibious landings and jungle warfare.  

This was back in '77' and even then the military was at odds with the civilians.  There was a standing order for no personnel to be out after dark unless in a group of at least 2.  You were also supposed to carry axe handles if not side arms.  The reason was that the civilian "cowboys" were assaulting Marines at every opportunity.  We even had some snipers take shots at us while I was there.  

I agree with Kalifornia... start somewhere around LA.[rocket]

First of all, Voodoo, those snipers are not the mainstream people of Vieques and Puerto Rico. They are members of a violent group that is seeking full independence for Puerto Rico. They are considered extremists even by the people of Vieques and Puerto Rico.

Second, Cleatus, I agree fully on Chicago and New York. When bombing Miami try to hit Coral Gables, man I hate those liberal assholes. Everytime a Republican or Cuban protests, they show up and hold a counter protest supporting the Clinton/Gore Administration. While your at it Overtown and Liberty City. Basically just try not to hit Little Havana, the Cubans are on our side since Elian. Everything else is fair game. How about Broward and Palm Beach also. Removing these 3 counties would eliminate 3 million Democrats. There are about 7 million Democrats along Kalifornia's coastline. Bomb them too. I've got an idea how to send Kalifornia lots of power fast. Will 10 megatons do. Nuke they Commie Bastards. It'll probably be the most energy the state has had in years.

After reading this thread, all I can say is THANK GOD that the Soviets enever discovered that Vieques is THE key to our Navy and Marine Corp and that without it those branches of our Armed Forces would be rendered ineffective and completely impotent. I'm sure that an appropriate substitute will not be able to be found for them to practice their respective crafts. I hear the Huns are already massing at the borders.

Boomer
No it will not render either service impotent, but it will make them less capable (the lack of that training was cited as one of the contributing factors to the mishap in Kuwait a few months ago where several American and an Australian where killed in live fire bomb incident).  I am pretty sure if you where in one of the East Coast MEU (SOC)s or a pilot in CVBG, you would want that extra amount of training opportunity prior to deploying over seas where someone may be attempting to kill you.  But as I see most that are against the training there are in little risk of going in harms way in the near future.

Hey CC and voodoo,
 As for the cowboys out there, they are still harrassing the shit out of us (this was back only a few years ago).  As part of a USMC AAV (amphibious assault vehicle) platoon (1833), we were initially training with blanks for the M2 .50 cal-among other things.
The cowboys would screw with us nearly every night, until the a few Marines discovered that a .50 cal cleaning rod can be propelled like a steel missile from a blank round's blast!  Oh, the look of surprise on their faces as they ran away like scared little bitches!

I don't understand what the big deal is.  Other than to be assholes, why keep a range on an inhabited island where the residents don't want it?   There are plenty of uninhabited islands around, use one of them.

The reason that it ever went this far is that PR is not a state and has no Congressman fighting for them.

Yaworski
The big deal is that it has been used for the last 50 years as a range and military base. One that since there is tons of UXO on will probably never be occupable again.  Since you suggested us moving to another island.  Isn't it incumbent on you to name one off the East coast of the US that allows combined arms operations and is not too far away from the US (not an easy task is it?).
Since most of those who don't want us there are activists (I would hazard to guess if you know the answer already if ask most of them like Almos and Sharpton about the right of people to keep guns).  I would guess this is the only thing you agree with them on.

Again I stand by my assertion that all those that complain are those who may not suffer or die because of the lack of training.  I really wish you would write the widows of those service members killed a few months ago and explain how it is no big deal and the predeployment training is not necessary.

Yaw

I thought PR has given a chance recently to vote on becoming a state.  If I remember correctly they voted not to become a state. STLRN has a good point, it will take cost hundreds of millions of dollars to remove the UXO on that island.  If they start using a new site they will be creating a new mess to clean-up.

Hey, that's not a hunger strike Sharpton's on.
He's eating soup.
Why do we care? If he were really on a hunger strike - water only - he'd be dead by the time he got out. I think the world record is somewhere around 60 days by a member of the IRA and Al's in there for 90.

cc48510
    I never meant that the entire population of Vieques was sniping/harassing the Marines.  Only those known as "cowboys".  And even then only the cowboys that were on the base illegally.  ( You can easily tell the diffence because the legals don't run away or shoot at you when you happen upon them. )

dissipator556,
    After several VERY close and potentially deadly encounters with the "cowboys", I removed my BFA and kept a separate mag loaded with the real stuff.  Fortunately for all involved there were no further incidents.  

For quite a few years people lynched blacks, now we don't.  Things change.  



They volunteered.

Is that important?  



Not if they find a place where no one lives and no, it isn't incumbent on me to find such a place.  If I tell you that you shouldn't park in my neighbor's spot, it isn't my job to find you a new place to park.

Was it Bush or Clinton. It sounds from the article that Clinton left Bush in a bad position.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/06/15/vieques.rumsfeld/index.html

I have read that we've been bombing this island for 60 years! Its not something new. If there are too many friendlies in the area, isn't that the PR governments fault for letting that many people that close?!?
I agree that if there is another site, then move, but i feel that the burden of responsibility goes to the PR govt.
These bunch of liberal crybabies want to be our 51st state? Don't think so!

You simpletons going on about how there's no where else to train, please go do a little research. FedGov.Com owns land all over the globe (look at Nevada!). There are plenty of places to train. Vieques was, as somebody said, a lose-lose proposition.

I hate to sound like I'm even mildly agreeing with that dickhead nazi Sharpton, but if the people getting fucked over on Vieques were white citizens of say, North Carolina, you sure as shit bet we wouldn't be having this much argument over it!

Yaworski
I guess that means you wouldn't write their next of kin and tell them that because they volunteered they were expendable. I'm sorry that they where willing to walk that line and defend this country.  I guess they don't have a right to the best chance of surviving, just because they volunteered.  I guess anyone who volunteers, life is not worth it if someone is even inconvenienced.

I urge go down and join the military, go on a MEU (SOC) and be told you cannot be adequately trained, I can guarantee you when you life may depend on it your BS attitude would change.

I tell you what I live less distance away from one of the most heavily used impact areas in the world, it can be noisy but the noise is only an inconvenience for those that are new to the area.  Those that have lived here for any time don't care.  Since most of the protesters aren't from Vieques.  They are not even being inconvenienced, they are making a political statement.  One that would leave this country weaker.  

maelcum
Have you ever heard of Camp Lejeune or Fort Bragg they are in North Carolina, I have personally fired or control thousands of the types of round in question at both location.  At Lejeune a few years ago the civilians attempted to get the GSR tank range shut down because it was too loud.  It is still in use, I guess the hypothesis about effect on white NCer doesn't work now does it.  It also cost too much to ship troops all around the country for a lot of the training in question.  The units in question are on the East coast.  East Coast Marine units only go 29 Palms, CA for CAX 4 times a year.  It is a huge expense, the army also has limited funds to ship forces to Fort Irwin, CA for training.  Not to mention all the lost time in getting gear out there.  It is much easier, cost effective and less time consuming to go to PR and train than go across the nation to the desert and train.  Additionally, it is pretty hard to get a Naval Gun Fire platform, i.e., a ship, into the desert for a NGF shoot.  Since Vieques is closed east coast unit cannot do NGF shoots.  England offered an island off Scotland for it, but you get into the same problem, it takes a long time to get there.

Something all you not in the military need to know.  Even in many of our military installations, we are limited today on the amount and type of training we can do.  Environmentalist wackos have made the military limit its training, also there is a big push in some places, southern CA, by land developers and local politicians for us to give up our bases in order for them to develop beach front property.  

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/06/15/vieques.rumsfeld/index.html

Rumsfeld blames Clinton administration for loss of Vieques
June 15, 2001 Posted: 2:08 PM EDT (1808 GMT)

By Jamie McIntyre
CNN Military Affairs Correspondent

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In an interview with CNN on Friday, Defense Secretary
Donald Rumsfeld blamed the Clinton administration for the loss of the U.S.
Navy bombing range on the Puerto Rican island of Vieques and promised to
find a replacement.

Donald Rumsfeld said the decision on Vieques was essentially made
when President Clinton agreed to submit the issue to referendum
"I can assure you that we are going to find ways, one way or another, to
see that the men and women who go to the Gulf have the same kind of
training that we are giving the men and women who go out in the Pacific
for their deployments -- we simply must do that," Rumsfeld told CNN.
Rumsfeld said the decision to give up use of the bombing range in May of
2003 was essentially made when President Clinton agreed to submit the
issue to referendum.
"The prior administration made an agreement with the government of Puerto
Rico that there would be a referendum, and that they would leave the
Vieques training range in 2003 if they lost the referendum. That's the
arrangement that was made, and we have to live with that."
Bush administration officials have cited several polls that indicate
sentiment among the more than 6,000 registered voters on Vieques running
strongly against allowing the Navy to stay.
But the Navy argues that with a good public relations campaign they have
chance of winning and preserving the right to conduct live-fire exercises
on the island's uninhabited east end.
Rumsfeld acknowledged that unless Congress changes the current law, the
referendum would go forward. He said conservative Republicans had
legitimate concerns about giving up the training facility, which has been
used by the U.S. Navy for more than 50 years.
But Rumsfeld said he supports the decision to leave Vieques, even though
he wasn't directly involved in making it.
"Deputy Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and the Secretary of the Navy have made a
decision. And I think that there's no question but that they have balanced
this properly, and that we'll have to find ways over the coming period of
two, three, four years to find ways that we can see that we get the
training that's needed in other ways. And we're aggressively looking for
ways to do that," Rumsfeld said.


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