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Posted: 6/11/2001 7:09:03 AM EDT
The whole natural resource conservation by way of powering-off terrosists effort today has got me thinking. I've read a bit of stuff about it, but still don't see how it was a federal murder of 87 or however many people there were. The reason the feds were there: unregistered MGs, I don't agree with the law and most of you all don't either, but if you break it you've got to expect something to happen. I don't agree with some of the drug laws, I broke one a few years back and spent a night in jail and paid a bigass fine for it, I accepted it and learned my lesson. It wasn't the cop's fault, it was mine. I violated a law that really has no reason or justification but it's still the law. Now the machine gunning of Koresh's daughter and others before the standoff, was out and out MURDER just like ruby ridge. But here's where I'm confused, How is it the government is responsible for the deaths in the fire? [b]Regardless[/b] of whether or not they lit it or if the davidians lit it themselves [i](it's been beaten to death we may never know and not what I'm psting this to discuss)[/i] the fact is they had FIFTY-ONE DAYS to come out. I see sitting around for twelve-hundred hours after being told to come out as suicide. I may be way off base so please try to correct me if I'm wrong. I posted this thread not to start an argument but to learn, so help me out you just might make a believer out of me.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:25:11 AM EDT
I watched the whole thing live when I lived in Texas, and one thing I noticed was that the ATF fired first, and then while watching them shoot at the building from behind the autos parked out front you didn't see any dirt being kicked up by any return fire nor were the windows of the autos they were behind being hit. I would go on with a long dissertation, but I think this should be something to think about. In the state of Texas, If the police shoot first you are allowed to use an appropriate of amount force to prevent you own murder.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:37:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ar10er: ...one thing I noticed was that the ATF fired first, and then while watching them shoot at the building from behind the autos parked out front you didn't see any dirt being kicked up by any return fire nor were the windows of the autos they were behind being hit.
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I realize this, they wanted to kill people and they succeeded a few times, but the fate of the rest of them I believe was in their own hands. In the "calm" after the initial raid they could have walked out at any time and lived productive lives with the majority of them probably not being charged with anything. If they were prevented from walking out by Koresh himself, then still most of the blame would lie on them for aligning themselves with a cat like that in the first place.
...In the state of Texas, If the police shoot first you are allowed to use an appropriate of amount force to prevent you own murder.
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Interesting. We all know [i]morally[/i] that if a cop is trying to kill you for no reason that returning fire in self-defense is just. But very interesting that TX goes a step ahead to protect you legally.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:42:35 AM EDT
About them comming out, I think we would have to be in their position, becuse if the police fired first would you realy think you could walk out and nothing would happen?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:43:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:49:27 AM EDT
You should purchase the videos about Waco. I've seen the first two, the second was a lot better than the first. I haven't seen the third yet (FLIR tape) but would like to . The videos are truly disturbing. No, let me rephrase that, the videos show the disturbing actions taken by the government.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:50:27 AM EDT
The reason the feds were there: unregistered MGs
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I am not a Waco expert like some here, but my question is "What unregistered MGs?" After the raid, I did not see the government trotting out a bunch of burned up guns. I could be wrong, but I think one of the members had an FFL, and the guns they had may have been legal. Why did the Feds "raid" them in the first place? It is my understanding that the local sherrif could have knocked on the front door, and they would have let him in. Did they really need an extreme show of force? I agree, they should have given it up after the first day and many lives would have been saved. They could have hired Johnny Cochran, and sued the government for violating their rights. With the big settlement, they could be living large. Unfortunately, if the government did not find any guns, they probably would have planted some.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:55:27 AM EDT
I have heard that Delta force was there. Any body else hear this? I find that it's disturbing that "our" government would commit murder for a MG voilation. Or in the case of Ruby ridge, a sawed off shotgun (that many say was a setup). I'm not defending those who break the law, just stating that a certain amount of force would be justified for a certain offence. Why didnt the govt just use their collective head, and wait until someone (Koresh, or Randy Weaver) to go to town for milk or smokes?? 20/20 hindsight I guess. Just my .02 Eric PS as an unrelated note, I think it was liddy that said "Headshots! They cant wear body armor on their heads!"[;D] [%(]
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 7:58:15 AM EDT
I am somewhat with you on this. Koresh (sp) is a foul individual, and yes he did violate the law. By violating the law, he could expect some type of consequence. If they had waited him out, by negotiation or just pure paitence, he would have just been another nut job shown on COPS. This is where I condemn the government. Rather than doing this, they assaulted the position. They then pissed and moaned that they took casualties. They hit a group that was known to have MGs and had end of the world type beliefs, and were suprised at the outcome. From here it only got worse as they lost tons of credibility and had to try and restore it. They even had armor present at the end. I'm not talking armored cars either, but tracked offensive vehicles. It was the worst case of contempt of cop that the world has ever seen! I see it just like the game my brother used to play with me. He would swing his arms violently and walk toward me and say, you know I'm coming, so if you get hit, it's YOUR fault.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:00:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mejames:
The reason the feds were there: unregistered MGs
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I am not a Waco expert like some here, but my question is "What unregistered MGs?" After the raid, I did not see the government trotting out a bunch of burned up guns. I could be wrong, but I think one of the members had an FFL, and the guns they had may have been legal. Why did the Feds "raid" them in the first place? It is my understanding that the local sherrif could have knocked on the front door, and they would have let him in. Did they really need an extreme show of force? I agree, they should have given it up after the first day and many lives would have been saved. They could have hired Johnny Cochran, and sued the government for violating their rights. With the big settlement, they could be living large. Unfortunately, if the government did not find any guns, they probably would have planted some.
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They knew that David K. jogged outside of the compound almost every day, they could have arrested him at anytime. There were experts that offered to x-ray the firearms for free but the gov. would not let them. No I think this is more than just a raid gone wrong.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:05:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch: I am somewhat with you on this. Koresh (sp) is a foul individual, and yes he did violate the law. By violating the law, he could expect some type of consequence. If they had waited him out, by negotiation or just pure paitence, he would have just been another nut job shown on COPS. This is where I condemn the government. Rather than doing this, they assaulted the position. They then pissed and moaned that they took casualties. They hit a group that was known to have MGs and had end of the world type beliefs, and were suprised at the outcome. From here it only got worse as they lost tons of credibility and had to try and restore it. They even had armor present at the end. I'm not talking armored cars either, but tracked offensive vehicles. It was the worst case of contempt of cop that the world has ever seen! I see it just like the game my brother used to play with me. He would swing his arms violently and walk toward me and say, you know I'm coming, so if you get hit, it's YOUR fault.
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Did you know the law that they accused him of violating was a tax law? Do you really think the gov. should go around raiding and killing tax violators?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:11:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:19:07 AM EDT
The ATF did a no knock warrent from the reviews the feds did not say come out with you hands up or surrender; has soon has koresh open the door with NO WEAPON OF ANY KIND he was immediatly fired at. only time the Dividians were firing at ANYONE was the first entery team that was involved. to make things short here thae GOV was jast has bad has what McVeigh did only McVeigh got the death penalty but Janet Reno, Clinton, Lon H. walks free still has there jobs and there life's [b]NOW THATS WRONG!"[/b].
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:24:04 AM EDT
So just because they were given a chance to surrender, that justifies killing them when they fail to come out? The Davidians were convinced the Government was there to kill them. Davidians that did come out were subject to arrest and jail, even though they weren't suspects. The children that came out were abused in the eyes of the Davidians. They were pumped full of candy and allowed to run wild. The Davidian children had been on a strict diet and were well behaved. One Davidian that tried to sneak into the "compound" was executed in a nearby field. You can see pictures of the so-called concrete vault where the women and children hide while being gassed to death. There is a large hole in the top and the rebar is bent inward - clear indication that the government placed a shaped charge on the roof and slagged everyone inside. There are burned bodies of children bent backward so severely their backs are broken - indication of severe muscle spasms caused by cyanide poisoning (produced by the burning of the gas). The USGI manual on the gas they used specifically stated that it was for outdoor use only, that it was highly flammable and toxic indoors. The Government pumped 8 hours worth of gas into the "compound" in less than 1 hour. Gas levels were probably toxic in many areas. The Government knew the Davidians were using kerosene lanterns, since the gov had cut off the power. Hence, they knew the place would burn. There is a recording where the FBI laughs and warns the davidians that "they had better have good fire insurance". This happened a couple days before the fire. The FBI didn't have any fire equipment on hand and held up the firefighting equipment for over 15 minutes. There's more. Get the videos, read the books. The Government needed to stomp the life out of these people to show their Supremcy.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 8:54:26 AM EDT
I would suggest that you get a copies of these videos. Then you will have enough information, besides from the controlled media, to form an opinion. "Waco: The Rules of Engagement"- nominated for the 1998 Academy Award for "Best Documentary" [url]www.waco93.com/[/url] "Waco: A New Revelation" [url]www.waco-anewrevelation.com/[/url] "The FLIR Project". [url]www.flirproject.com/index3.html[/url] THESE ARE NOT, I REPEAT ARE NOT Linda Thompson videos that the naysayers enjoy so much using to dismiss all Waco documentaries.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:03:18 AM EDT
Was it necessary to use TANKS against civilians? As we speak Janet Reno is working on a mini tactical A-BOMB, you know just a pint sized one for when the G-men need to take out a harded civilian installation like that cardboard box of a Branch Dividian compound. She plans it to be a shoulder fired, recoil-less weapon.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:04:20 AM EDT
erickm, you should have never opened this can of worms. [b]W[/b]e [b]A[/b]int [b]C[/b]oming [b]O[/b]ut
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:11:31 AM EDT
erickm ...be careful i asked this same question about a month ago and got blamed as a libral instigator on ar15.com....careful....
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:14:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:26:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By burn: erickm ...be careful i asked this same question about a month ago and got blamed as a libral instigator on ar15.com....careful....
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It's just the name you use!! LOL
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funny its my legal middle name go figure my parents were hippies [:)]
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:32:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:38:45 AM EDT
Next time maybe G-men need to call in air support a-la-Vietman. Wouldn't hurt to add in some ground support a-la 1-5-5 Howitzer? After all the Dividians were making MACHINE GUNS. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 9:56:27 AM EDT
I read that the way the gov got the SF to train the BATF (I think it's Posse Comitatus Act?) was by saying they had proof there was a meth lab in the compound. Anyone else hear this? Has anyone else heard about evidence of this "lab" being found in the debris?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:00:02 AM EDT
What was Waco???? It was a good illustration of what happens when military personnel and tactics are used to handle civil and criminal matters. And it illustrates why this VERY type of thing is PROHIBITED in the US Constitution
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:28:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By alphajaguars: I read that the way the gov got the SF to train the BATF (I think it's Posse Comitatus Act?) was by saying they had proof there was a meth lab in the compound. Anyone else hear this? Has anyone else heard about evidence of this "lab" being found in the debris?
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SOP for the ATF to make up false allegations to get what they want, much like when they told a judge that Randy Weaver was part of a group of bank robbers. There was a meth lab at Mount Carmel being run by a couple of members at the when Koresh became head of the church. They were kicked out and law enforcement was notified. This happened YEARS before the ATF decided to assault the Davidians. If the ATF was so concerned of a drug lab, why wasn't the DEA on site? More importantly why were they throwing flashbangs into a building where there would be numerous volatile meth manufacturing chemicals being stored?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:39:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ctrmass: I have heard that Delta force was there. Any body else hear this?
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3 individuals from SOCOM were there. They were support personnel, not operators... technicians. News flash: not everyone in the D is a shooter. The military didn't even want to be there to even offer advice. Military = policy enforcement, not law enforcement. As for training, there is no SF training group at Fort Hood. There is a (small) MOUT facility. But, military personnel were NOT used in an operational capacity. As for all those tapes. Bull. There were no Abrams tanks there. M2 IFVs (minus chaingun) and M748 CVE (civil engineer vehicles). Nobody ever wants death in tactical operations. There were mistakes made by all. I think everyone involved wishes they would have done things differently. But whoever thinks the government is into killing for the sake of some black-bag agenda to come take your guns is just living in paraniod fantasy land. -SARguy
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:45:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SARguy: As for all those tapes. Bull. There were no Abrams tanks there. M2 IFVs (minus chaingun) and M748 CVE (civil engineer vehicles). -SARguy
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Please explain what is bull about the tapes.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 10:52:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2001 3:33:39 PM EDT by Boland]
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 11:36:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Boland: Stop blaming the Army - all the eqipment was TXNG and the pers.
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You obviously aren't familiar with the Supreme Court ruling in Peprich v. Dept. of Defense.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 11:41:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 11:46:32 AM EDT
Did you even look up the Supreme Court ruling??? The court ruled that the National Guard IS part of the U.S. Army and under Federal control as it recieves it's funding AND equipment from the Federal government.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 12:00:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 12:01:40 PM EDT
You know Patty Hearst didn't 'go over' to her SLA kidnappers until she saw the television coverage of the house in Los Angeles that the FBI 'accidentally' burned down by firing the same frigging type of tear gas grenades they lobbed into the Mt. Carmel CHURCH. As she sat there watching the TV, still under guard by her kidnappers, she realized 'Hey, the FBI thinks [b]I'm[/b] being held hostage in that house. WTF are they doing burning it to the ground?' Good question, Patty! Why are they burning down the house? Just another 'hostage' rescued by the FBI vaunted Hostage Re[u]screw[/u] Team! Eric The Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 12:22:07 PM EDT
Unlike most "conspiracy theories," most of what the "conspiracy theorists" claim happened at Waco seems very likely, and is supported by a whole lot of evidence and even LEOs. Sometimes you wonder how long it'll be before HRT raids some Texas Rangers "compound" - there's quite a few well armed dudes with "anti-government" attitudes in the Texas DPS. (Thank God) But aside from all that, just think about it. If you've ever seen the list of weapons the ATF claims were in the Waco compound, the blatant lying is self-evident. If the Branch Davidians had been half as well-armed and willing to fight as was claimed, every single ATF agent would have been killed or seriously injured during the assault. As an aside, what is with the SWAT members on this board, it's like they're afraid that all this civilian scrutiny is going to end their free ride playing with neat toys and beating up drug dealers. From a PR POV you'd be much further ahead to criticise things like Waco and Ruby Ridge as the cock-ups they are, rather than defending them. You wonder why police officers are getting such a negative image?!
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 12:49:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SARguy: Nobody ever wants death in tactical operations. There were mistakes made by all. I think everyone involved wishes they would have done things differently. But whoever thinks the government is into killing for the sake of some black-bag agenda to come take your guns is just living in paraniod fantasy land. -SARguy
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Sounds like you live in some sort of candy ass, fairy tale la la land. Wake up, buddy. The ATF was trying to show how tough, efficient, and effective they thought they were and get some good press to help justify their budget. Or do you really believe that news crews just coincidentally happened to be in some remote part of Texas? Like I said, wake up, buddy.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 1:55:48 PM EDT
The Army National Guard (ARNG), along with the U.S. Army Reserve (USAR), is a reserve component of the U.S. Army; hence, the "U.S. Army" nametape on their uniforms. The U.S. Army's 49th Armored Division (TXARNG) has one of the highest Unit Readiness (UR) rating of units in the reserve. The "Abrahms tank" used in Waco was a Combat Engineer Vehicle (CEV) which is essentially a snub-nosed M60 MBT with blade and boom. If the government really intended to destroy the compound, squash-head rounds would have been fired from the CEV than simply pushing CS gas with the boom. Finally how does anyone know who the unit commander is for "Delta Force," an organization not officially acknowledged to exist with no published TO&E.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:20:21 PM EDT
I think the mood and tenor of the government operation was highlighted by what the minister that tried to get Koresh's mother in to see him overheard. After denying the request, the minister overheard the agent in charge saying "I sure hope Koresh has made his peace with God". This leads me to believe that the final raid was revenge for killing the ATF agents during the initial raid.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:27:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bush Hamster: Finally how does anyone know who the unit commander is for "Delta Force," an organization not officially acknowledged to exist with no published TO&E.
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Great points all around Bush Hamster. The Commander of CAG is not classified and is published (most recently in Army Times). SARguy
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:48:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SARguy: As for all those tapes. Bull.
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What is bull about "those tapes"?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 2:55:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bush Hamster: The "Abrahms tank" used in Waco was a Combat Engineer Vehicle (CEV) which is essentially a snub-nosed M60 MBT with blade and boom.
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Exactly. Now, would it have made you feel any better to have a CEV crash through the wall of your home than say, an M60A3 or an M1A1 MBT? Golly gee willickers, I didn't think so.
If the government really intended to destroy the compound, squash-head rounds would have been fired from the CEV than simply pushing CS gas with the boom.
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Yeah, I'm sure we all know how well that would have played on television. Even the government must use some small degree of subtelty and deception in achieving it's goals, no? And I guess having fire trucks on hand when dealing with violently breaching a timber structure in high winds would have just been too much ask, wouldn't it have?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 3:40:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 3:46:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boland: [b] My point is simply that if regular army units had been used they would likely have been better prepared. As for the TxNG max'ing their readiness - no bearing on an internal security op. Waco was an unfortunate lessons learned - [/b]
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Maybe that is the case in Canada, but the the U.S. the use of any Army personnel in domestic law enforcement operations is a VIOLATION of the Posse Commitatus Act of 1878.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 3:58:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boland:
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: No use letting facts get in the way of a good rant. This guy is an apologist for all things governmental.
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[b] My point is simply that if regular army units had been used they would likely have been better prepared. As for the TxNG max'ing their readiness - no bearing on an internal security op. Waco was an unfortunate lessons learned - [/b]
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And that lesson would be, do not invite the media?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 3:58:32 PM EDT
Boomer, 1. I was only clarifying which vehicle was used in the compound. The heavily armored CEV was an appropriate platform to deploy the CS gas. No one wants an armored vehicle smashing into their building, but I can only surmise on the task-force commander's decision on using the CEV. Given the fact that the defending force was firing .50 cal weapons (which could pierce the APCs that were on-site), the only suitable vehicle apparently available to protect driver from small arms fire and to safely deliver the CS gas was the CEV. 2. You argue that the government was only trying to be subtle in destroying the compound. How are you so sure that the government intended to set the fire? Has it ever dawned on you that perhaps the FBI task-force commander and his staff were ate-up? Perhaps they did not foresee/plan for a fire engulfing the compound. It is amazing that your deep distrust in our government makes you see conspiracies in areas where there [i]might[/i] not be any.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 4:03:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 4:13:08 PM EDT
Many of you do not seem to belive that the gov. can keep a secret, so there is no conspiracy. Well how many remember the syphilis experiments in Miss.? Or many of our combat aircraft that only come to light sometimes decades after their first flight? Just because you are paranoid does not mean that someone is not watching you.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 4:14:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: You know Patty Hearst didn't 'go over' to her SLA kidnappers until she saw the television coverage of the house in Los Angeles that the FBI 'accidentally' burned down by firing the same frigging type of tear gas grenades they lobbed into the Mt. Carmel CHURCH. As she sat there watching the TV, still under guard by her kidnappers, she realized 'Hey, the FBI thinks [b]I'm[/b] being held hostage in that house. WTF are they doing burning it to the ground?' Good question, Patty! Why are they burning down the house? Just another 'hostage' rescued by the FBI vaunted Hostage Re[u]screw[/u] Team! Eric The Hun[>]:)]
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LAPD
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 4:16:15 PM EDT
If they didn't want to burn the compound to the ground, then what did they hold up the fire trucks? If they had nothing to hide why did they bulldoze a crime scene? If they didn't fire first where are the steel front doors that would prove so? There is too much in question to say that the government did nothing wrong, and too much evidence that it tried to hide it. They had the compound staked out for months and could have stopped Koresh in town the day before the raid. I think the ATF just wanted to show some muscle to discourage militia's from forming (you know what kind of trouble they cause[;)]) Then in the end it was the FBI that burned them out not the ATF, and I think the FBI was a little embarrassed that this relatively small group of people kept them at bay for 51 days. By the way who was the HRT rescueing anyway?
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 5:24:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Slave 1: If they didn't want to burn the compound to the ground, then what did they hold up the fire trucks? By the way who was the HRT rescueing anyway?
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Waco FD's nearest station is more than 15 miles away. SOP for FD's in extreme hazmat scenarios (possible explosives...i.e. lots of ammo) is to stand off until it is safer. You can't do any good if you lose your crew. HRT's mission does not only include domestic terrorism and hostage rescue. It includes serving as a full-time tactical unit, and they are extreme professionals. If I were held hostage, I'd want them coming through the windows to the rescue. The problem is when you mix politics with tactical operations. Imbroglio - I've not seen any of the tapes, but I've seen the "promo" images showing M1 MBT's (I know the difference between a CVE and MBT)which were just not there. If someone has to blantantly lie to try and get attention, you automatically ruin your credibility with me. -SARguy
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 5:25:18 PM EDT
Vernon Wayne Howell was a certified whacko. His followers were just as whacked. All they had to do was walk out and surrender. Just because someone follows a different religion or dosen't "act" like the rest of "us" is no reason to kill them. Janet Reno is just as guilty of murder as that pile of (dead) shit McVeigh was.
Link Posted: 6/11/2001 5:42:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ClearFire: Vernon Wayne Howell was a certified whacko. His followers were just as whacked. All they had to do was walk out and surrender. Just because someone follows a different religion or dosen't "act" like the rest of "us" is no reason to kill them. Janet Reno is just as guilty of murder as that pile of (dead) shit McVeigh was.
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Two questions: A. Did you personally know David Koresh? Or are you just basing you assertion on what you were spoon fed by the media? B. Exactly how eager would you have been to walk out of your home after having been assaulted by dozens of black clad men firing automatic weapons at you? I can't say as I blame them for not trusting the same people who were attempting to and finally succeeded at killing them.
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