IRS rulings are not law, merely statements of policy.

eta: anyone who believes that organized prayer for a person's success on behalf of a 501(c)(3) violates the tax code, I'd like to see citations to authority. I don't see how the fact that the person is running for public office changes that but, once again, I'll be receptive to any authority that is cited.

Churchs make the decision to register with the IRS and are stuck with the restriction on not getting involved in politics, instead of being dishonest and calling it "praying for candidate X to win but we aren't involved in politics  we are just praying" they could admit what they are doing, give up their tax exempt status, pay taxes and have their parishioners lose the right to deduct their contributions to the church on their taxes. If they stick to keeping the lights on in the church and feeding the homeless then they won't run into problems, though like I said, I doubt that kind of activity would really bring the IRS down on them, worldnetdaily isn't exactly long on fact checking before publishing something.

I see your point.

Are you then implying that just because a church "prays for a canidate to win", or comes right out and endorses them, that they are in fact a "business" or should I say a "for profit" organization? (not necessarily going by what the IRS says)

Your first post I replied to seemed to indicate you were bitter that they had tax exempt status and compared it to your business. Perhaps I didn't follow what you were trying to get at.

::edit::

After re-reading, I realized it wasn't you who was the "bitter" one, but an unquoted person further up who you were sort of agreeing with. (or disagreeing with a disagreer of the "bitter" one... )

If none of that applies to you, just disregard.

I probably should have addressed this to that person, altho a few of my points actually were spurred by your comparing a church to a business.

Quoted: O Church property during officially church events I have no problem with this.  There is a fine line between a church praying for someone and a church endorsing someone and then leading the congregation in prayer for that person. SGatr15

I totally agree. I think this excerpt is taken a little out of context and even if it's not, I believe they are trying to prevent an actual rally taking place and using a church as the venue instead of just praying for a Bush victory.

It seems to me that religious and political freedom are two of the bedrock concepts this country was founded upon.  

Those two ideas are inextricably interlinked, as social policy involves making moral choices that affect and sanction public conduct.  Moral choices that traditionally have had a religious center.  

This fairly recent concept that religion and politics should never touch each other is absurd and flies in the face of what the founders of this country intended , as well as what our history of over the last 200 years has been in practice.  

If, for example, a candidate supports partial birth abortion, and your church has as a tenet that the procedure is a mortal sin, then why precisely is it wrong for that church to state to its members that voting for that candidate would violate the tenets?  

The attempt to divorce religion from public discourse is simply radial left-wing/govermentalism at its worst.  

The Communists sought to remove religion from public life and replace government as the new opiate of the masses.  

It seems to be working here too.  

Quoted: I'd love to pay less in taxes but I hope I'm not bitter--yet-well maybe a little I think "praying for X to win" is certainly straying into poltical speach, but I'm not convinced that politics can be divorced from churchs. I guess it depends on what you think the role of a church in a community is, is it just to provide a roof and a minister for Sunday, or is it supposed to try to change the community for the better? Running a soup kitchen for the poor is okay, but advocating for your county to increase medicaid (care? I can't remember which) benefits for the same poor wouldn't be? You can pray "for the end of abortion" but not protest in support of a law restricting abortion? What if a neo-nazi runs for county sheriff, does the local rabbi put his synagogue's tax status at risk if he speaks out against the candidate at services or even has a meeting trying to stop his election at the synagogue's facitlities? Got me.

You are making excellent points. This IRS ruling IS the camel's nose. How does this law apply if a minister or rabbi or preist tells his congregation to vote FOR their state's proposed ban on homosexual marriage? How does this apply if the minister just says that homosexual marriage is wrong, during an election cycle where gay marriage is an issue?

Don't forget that in Canada they have passed hate crimes legislation that prevents people, even in churches, from saying negative things about homosexuality. I don't want any government interference into what is said inside a church.

And let's be realistic here, the Federal Government is using tax exempt status to strong arm churches into dilutting their messages.

How does this law apply

I just want to reiterate that IRS rulings do not, by themselves, constitute law, they are merely policy statements unless adopted as law by regulation, statute or judicial decision

Quoted: I think I am going to go to church this Sun and pray for Bush to win..

Already beat you to it!

Quoted: I'd love to pay less in taxes but I hope I'm not bitter--yet-well maybe a little I think "praying for X to win" is certainly straying into poltical speach, but I'm not convinced that politics can be divorced from churchs. I guess it depends on what you think the role of a church in a community is, is it just to provide a roof and a minister for Sunday, or is it supposed to try to change the community for the better? Running a soup kitchen for the poor is okay, but advocating for your county to increase medicaid (care? I can't remember which) benefits for the same poor wouldn't be? You can pray "for the end of abortion" but not protest in support of a law restricting abortion? What if a neo-nazi runs for county sheriff, does the local rabbi put his synagogue's tax status at risk if he speaks out against the candidate at services or even has a meeting trying to stop his election at the synagogue's facitlities? Got me.

You make the point I make. Churches are NOT required to sit back and say or do nothing even remotely political. They have the freedom to speak as they want on the issues they want to speak on. Because their nature is not primarily political, they are still tax exempt. When they sign up to be tax exempt, they are NOT signing away their right to be socially relevant or involved.

Quoted: I hate to jump into a topic that is BOTH religious AND political, but the snippet above kinda says alot about churches. I think they have the "necessities" mixed up. Nothin wrong with inviting a True Pastor over for lunch and dinner, and having him live by candelight.  If it is his True Calling, he will be provided for.  The "necessities" are in red.

??????????????????????????

Why in blue hell does this issue always come up? Does God require Pastors and their families to live in abject poverty? THE SCRIPTURES TEACH THAT A PASTOR IS RIGHT IN TAKING A SALARY FROM THE CHURCH:

" 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3My defense to those who examine me is this: 4Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 6Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working? 7Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock?
8Do I say these things as a mere man? Or does not the law say the same also? 9For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain."[1] Is it oxen God is concerned about? 10Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things? 12If others are partakers of this right over you, are we not even more? "

1st Corinthians 9

It is BIBLICAL and it is RIGHT for a Pastor to take wages from the church.

Why is it that everyone else on earth gets paid and can afford to live, but somehow pastors are supposed to be absolutely destitute?

Crimony.

Quoted: Quoted: I hate to jump into a topic that is BOTH religious AND political, but the snippet above kinda says alot about churches. I think they have the "necessities" mixed up. Nothin wrong with inviting a True Pastor over for lunch and dinner, and having him live by candelight.  If it is his True Calling, he will be provided for.  The "necessities" are in red. ?????????????????????????? Why in blue hell does this issue always come up? Does God require Pastors and their families to live in abject poverty? THE SCRIPTURES TEACH THAT A PASTOR IS RIGHT IN TAKING A SALARY FROM THE CHURCH: " 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3My defense to those who examine me is this: 4Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 6Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working? 7Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock? 8Do I say these things as a mere man? Or does not the law say the same also? 9For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain."[1] Is it oxen God is concerned about? 10Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things? 12If others are partakers of this right over you, are we not even more? " 1st Corinthians 9 It is BIBLICAL and it is RIGHT for a Pastor to take wages from the church. Why is it that everyone else on earth gets paid and can afford to live, but somehow pastors are supposed to be absolutely destitute? Crimony.

I think Brasspile was just trying to point out the way things should be prioritized by the church, not condemn pastors to a life of poverty.....

Quoted: I think Brasspile was just trying to point out the way things should be prioritized by the church, not condemn pastors to a life of poverty.....

I hope so.

But most of the time when I have confronted comments like that it has usually been that preachers shouldn't get paid.

Quoted: Quoted: ..... A GOOD church will invest most of the income it receives furthering its purpose... spreading the gospel, supporting those who are needy, providing a place of worship, etc. On top of the necessities like salaries and utilities. .... I hate to jump into a topic that is BOTH religious AND political, but the snippet above kinda says alot about churches. I think they have the "necessities" mixed up. Nothin wrong with inviting a True Pastor over for lunch and dinner, and having him live by candelight.  If it is his True Calling, he will be provided for.  The "necessities" are in red.

A workman is worthy of his wage. No flames BP I understood your post.

Some Pastors do have their priorities mixed up. Thankfully my Pastor does not.

www.bethel-temple.org/template/template/welcome.html

Quoted: There is a time and place for everything. Church isn't the place for politics.

I gotta say Amen to that!  I don't think the Dems or Repubs should be doing it.  But the Dems sure do every election....so it was only a matter of time until the GOP followed suit.!

Quoted: I attended a church where the pastor and his family were living in an extremely nice house, 2 cars, fairly spendy vacations, yet not all the pews had bibles in them. I think it is fine to pay them for their work and such, but I also think "The Necessities" are bibles for those who cannot afford them, (or at least one available in church if you want to follow along), and a church with functioning light bulbs and sound so that the speaker can be heard (I'm kinda deaf, another church provided a wireless headset to listen with, this one didn't).   I don't think the pastors should live in poverty or anything of the "extreme", sorry if it came off sounding that way.  They deserve a decent standard of living, but I think there is a bit of "overspending" done when what I FEEL are "the necessities" aren't covered. Hope this clears things up a bit.

In most of that, I agree with you. There are some pastors who are expert at spending money. My grandfather, for instance, served as pastor for a church for over 20 years. He dilligently improved the church and managed money to the point that when he retired from it there were hundreds of thousands of dollars saved for purposes like building maintenece, benevolence, family life center, etc.

The pastor who followed him sold the parsonage, (which wasn't huge, but was a nice place in good shape) and managed to go from having a balance sheet in the + six figures to having the church in debt in just a few short years.

I have seen pastors kill churches by being spendthrifts. (Fiscal responsibility does not seem to be taught in many seminaries these days...)

So I can sympathize with those who have had such a person make unwise spending decisions.

My contention is that most pastors in my denomination, and indeed a large percentage in just about any Protestant/Evangelical denomination actually have to work a secular job to allow them to continue in the ministry. It isn't all about money for the faithful many.

"Oh Lord....show me who to smite ....and they shall be smooted!"
 - Homer Simpson



(Not sure that was verbatim, but you get the gist.  You have to love the Simpsons!)