Quoted: I disagree. We do not need a presence over there.  We need to leave and then close our borders.  After that we can withdraw from Nafta and the United Nations.  Then we can run our country as we see fit.

So just retreat from the world and hide in our shell?  Man you have no concept of war, offense is completely superior to defense because offense has the option of attacking at its on time and place of its choosing.  If we retreat from the world the Morlocks will just advance to our borders and then we will be fighting them here!hug.gif

Quoted: Quoted: Our President has offered a lot of reasons for going to Iraq.   Be honest with me here, doesn't it seem to you that he is hiding something?   He is. Here is what it is:   The real reason we went to Iraq is to gain a foothold in the Middle East.  To have a country we can use for a true staging area for other military operations. Saudi Arabia has far to many restrictions for us. It is vital that we have a place to stage operations for the security of our country and the world. Our President understands this, but can't say it publicly because there is such Arab PARANOIA about just such a thing that they would go COMPLETELY NUTS if he announced it publicly.   So he says everything else but the real reason.  He could help his election chances by saying the real reason, but he knows that would hurt our countries future. So he keeps talking about "Democracy for Iraq" and all the other stuff so as not to get the Arabs panties in a bunch. Once again, he puts principal and strategy ahead of his personal political gain. I like this man. I will vote for him. You should too. Zen "This is my rifle, there are many like it, but this one is mine" Excuse me, then what was Afghanistan ??? How many foot holds do we need. Aircraft carriers would have been better and a long term investment.

Tanks can't operate off of aircraft carriers...

A CVN isn't a good invasion base...

And bombing doesn't win wars, it just helps...

We need to be able to invade hostile nations at a moments notice, with the full combat power of the US Military, not just a bunch of 'extra' paratroopers...

Fight in NYC or Baghdad? Bush made the right choice. He split them in the middle.....

Quoted: Fight in NYC or Baghdad? Bush made the right choice. He split them in the middle.....

It always comes back to this -----------

and I can't argue against it.

Your right.

SQUEEZE IRAN.

CRC

Quoted: Read this briefing.  It pretty much covers all the bases.

Nice link.

sounds good to me

Quoted: Maybe getting away from the topic... If I'm highjacking... just toss me outta the plane But..... If the US has invaded another country in order to gain a presence in an area an was up front about it would... after a time... months... maybe years if the US remained in control of said area would they get to enjoy a version of the US constitution or is that only for the 50 states to enjoy? My reasoning is that if the US ever takes over Canada will I get to enjoy the 2nd ammendment or will I continue to suffer under the yoke of oppression I bear now? I'm not even making sense to myself..... Babble mode >off

I always thought that if Quebec left to form its own Frog-speaking nation-state, the Western provencies would join the US. Their EC votes would eliminate the Democrats as a viable political party.

Quoted: I disagree. We do not need a presence over there.  We need to leave and then close our borders.  After that we can withdraw from Nafta and the United Nations.  Then we can run our country as we see fit.

Yeah, and within 30 years we'll be a 3rd world country while China becomes first world country and rules 3/4 of the world

Quoted: More revisionist ignorance... While Versailles was a mistake (and IIRC, one we never ratified), WWI was not... WWII would have happened for us with or without Nazis, as we were attacked - if you remember - by JAPAN, who viewed us as an obstacle to their imperial dreams while we sat behind our borders with a smug concieted 'they wouldn't dare challenge us' attitude... Further, without the Nazis - reprehensible as they were - Stalin would have been the 'Enemy in Europe' as a counterpart to Japan. ...

Without WW1, there would have been no Soviet Union--the Bolsheviks would have remained a minor footnote in Russian history. They would be as well know as the Mensheviks are today.

And the fascists in Italy were another outgrowth of WW1.

Furthermore, it was American aide the prolonged WW1. Without American aide Germany would have won on the European battlefields, and England and Germany would have had to work out some sort of peace agreement.

WW1 was a significant mistake.

Wishful thinking my friend. We are becoming an import economy. However, what finances our imports and most of our domestic R&D is exports.

Unfortuantely, (I know ppl. will get pissed at me for saying this, but I'm pissed this is the case) we need them more than they need us.

Sales of our products, mainly high-tech intellectual property (they make the goods) are mainly overseas.

Most of our oil comes from foreign sources.

Almost all of our timber comes from foreign sources.

2/3 of our computer security systems are completely foreign (mainly Israeli).

We are lucky than most countries in that we have vast natural resources. The difficulty is that they are not vast enough for the long-term. We are dependent on others for their labor, resources, and in rare cases intellectuall property / brains.

We were much closer to being self-sufficient 100% in all these areas during the cold war when students saw engineering and medicine as "patriotic" but even then, most of our top researchers were foreigners.

Whether we like it or not, we have interests in these places in order to maintain our supply lines of all the above-mentioned needs.  Protecting those interests is the job of the State Department and the big stick (ie. military).

All countries / companies / individuals do this. At the end of the day there are no true friends in the interntational arena: everyone is just trying to protect their interests.

Quoted: I disagree. We do not need a presence over there.  We need to leave and then close our borders.  After that we can withdraw from Nafta and the United Nations.  Then we can run our country as we see fit.

Well, I see some have resorted to name calling to reinforce their view points.  I have fallen for this in the past and returned the favor.  Not this time.

If you disagree with me, fine.  This is an open debate forum after all.  I am entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to yours.

We can debate for years about the wars of the 20th century and their effects.  It would simply be an exercise in debate.  Nothing more.

As far as my isolationist views, I hold that opinion because we have tried for decades to right the wrongs of the world as we see them.  We have ignored our own poor to send billions in foreign aid to those who stand in line to spit on us.  In every instance where we have fought tyranny, we have been villanized by the world and our own media.  As we try to deal with the problems of the world, they become our problems and we are blamed for them.  Our best and brightest have bled and died all over the world for people who aren't fit to clean our toilets.  We have huge reserves of talent and energy which we need to focus on our own probelms.  I am not advocating a head in the sand attitude.  We can observe and engage in trade with other nations.  We do not need to meddle in their affairs.  

As far as China goes, I would like to point out that our economy is driven by wage earners.  There is nothing made anywhere in the world that cannot be made in China for a lot less.  Does that mean we should join with all the industrialized nations of the world and shut down all our factories?  Of course not.  We need jobs in this country and so do other nations.  If the trend of allowing all our jobs to flow out of the country continues, there won't be any demand for Chinese goods either because no one will have a job to pay for them.

While I can agree that taking out Saddam Hussein was a good idea for world peace, I disagree with a long term presence in the middle east. I don't know if Iraq will be the beginning of a new dawn in the region and frankly, I don't care.  Every person in that country isn't worth the life of one of our people.