Quoted: I am also not going to bother to debate it, because experience has demonstrated to me that logic and reason cannot overcome willful ignorance. Not WANTING to believe in something does not make it a lie - no matter how feverently someone might want it to be. If someone has really compelling personal reasons for not wanting to believe in something (whether it is evolution, the moon-landing, or an airliner hitting the pentagon) that's fine.  They can BELIEVE whatever they want. As Socrates (supposedly) said: "The only good is knowledge, and the only evil is ignorance"

Hear, hear!

The evidence supporting the theory of evolution can't be laid out concisely enough to fit on a chat page.  If you wish to learn about it, let me know and I can recommend some books that summarize the evidence.

Quoted: I've NEVER been able to understand why evolution and Christianity can't coexist happily.   There is simply too much evidence (proof really) that evolution exists and controls the development of species on earth.   There is also no way that the biblical story of creation can be true as written.   There is also no real explanation for any number phenomena on the earth and in the universe.   There is no denying, to me anyway, that it took something of immense power to create and to put us herre.   I belive that was God.  That he set in motion a PROCESS for things to occur as they have since the begninning of time.  The culmination of that process was man and his ability to reason and choose his own course.   Intelligent design, or whatever you call it, is my belief.

I think along the lines of you...  God could have just snapped his fingers and been done.  I actually think he is the one that invented evolution.

Apes don't evolve into humans.  You really don't understand evolution, do you?

Then how come we share 95% DNA and what animal did we evolve from??

As a Christian, I am more offended by people who would take the word of a book written by man, over The truth that they can see with their own two eyes.
You are free to believe whatever you want, but I believe that Christ lives in me and the world around us that took millions or even billions of years to evolve, is but a blink of the eye to Him.
Evolution and Christianity can co exist. God does nothing in the image of man, we endevor daly to be more like Him. So, God's six days are not my six days. And if you belive God to be infinent, how can you think that he lives on earth's time schedual yet he controls the enitre universe?

My example of how evolution can co exist with a belief in God?

Two cells, a sperm and an egg, EVOLVING into a human being. If there was no form of evolution, we would be born fully grown and developed. Or rather we would not be born at all. We would simply exist.

God's work: The evolution of man

Quoted: Would you people agree that the human race is getting taller?  Well we are.  Also, in so many generation we won't have little toes anymore.  What's up with that?

Because there are two types of evolution:

Macro evolution: one species evolves into another (i don't believe in this one)
Micro evolution: Small changes within a species due to diet, environment etc.. (yes obviously this happens)

Quoted: Quoted: Evolution is just the name that we have given to the work that God does. +1 I still don't see why people have so much trouble roconciling faith and science. Must be an ego thing.

Actually, I would argue that it's not the religious that have the problem, it's the non-religious that seem to take huge leaps of faith (ironic, isn't it?) in a desperate attempt to prove that everything came from nothing, life came from lifelessness, conciousness came from unconciusness, etc.

Someone have ABSOLUTE PROOF of evolution? Show it to me, and I'll believe it, simply because the facts are right there. However, there is NO evidence, only conjecture, to support Darwinism. NONE.

No evidence of any pre-biotic soup.
No evidence of transitional fossils.
No evidence of bottom-up evolution.

etc.

I reject Darwinism not because I am Christian, but rather because it is BAD SCIENCE. Give me another theory with factual  support, and I'll listen, and my faith won't be moved one iota.

Good luck...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If a human being just became, like creationism says happened  why does a human share 95%+ of its genes with apes?   If we evolved from apes, Why are there still apes?? Because we didn't evolve from apes.  Can you understand that concept?

And I ask again what animal did we evolve from??

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Would you people agree that the human race is getting taller?  Well we are.  Also, in so many generation we won't have little toes anymore.  What's up with that? Because there are two types of evolution: Macro evolution: one species evolves into another (i don't believe in this one) Micro evolution: Small changes within a species due to diet, environment etc.. (yes obviously this happens) So if you have micro evolution over say 300,000 years, what do you get?  hmm?

The same animal, maybe taller or smaller, less hair etc... but not an new species.

Quoted: God's work: The evolution of man

Awesome picture, if that's not a tail, what is it?

I went to bible camp once. It was one of the most hateful places I have ever been to. I don't take kindly to people telling me what to do, especially if the "punishment" is eternal damnation.

Seen from an outsider's eyes, that bible camp could have been construed as a terrorist camp for kids.

Some of you make the Religion of Peace sound downright tolerant.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Evolution is just the name that we have given to the work that God does. +1 I still don't see why people have so much trouble roconciling faith and science. Must be an ego thing. Actually, I would argue that it's not the religious that have the problem, it's the non-religious that seem to take huge leaps of faith (ironic, isn't it?) in a desperate attempt to prove that everything came from nothing, life came from lifelessness, conciousness came from unconciusness, etc. Someone have ABSOLUTE PROOF of evolution? Show it to me, and I'll believe it, simply because the facts are right there. However, there is NO evidence, only conjecture, to support Darwinism. NONE. No evidence of any pre-biotic soup. No evidence of transitional fossils. No evidence of bottom-up evolution. etc. I reject Darwinism not because I am Christian, but rather because it is BAD SCIENCE. Give me another theory with factual  support, and I'll listen, and my faith won't be moved one iota. Good luck...

That's the problem with the creationism -v- darwinism argument. The creationists don't understand the language.
If the evidence you suggested were to be discovered it would go a long way to PROVING Darwins THEORY which may lead to it becoming Darwins LAW of evolution. But, the theory persists because no one has yet been able to present evidence to thouroughly dispute it.
I DON'T BELIEVE in Darwin, I THINK, with my God given intellect, that it's a good idea. Which is why it remains a theory and has not been discarded.

IT'S ONLY A LIE IF YOU CAN PROVE IT, and there's a Nobel prize in it for you if you can.

Popcorn Ready!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If a human being just became, like creationism says happened  why does a human share 95%+ of its genes with apes?   If we evolved from apes, Why are there still apes?? Because we didn't evolve from apes.  Can you understand that concept? And I ask again what animal did we evolve from?? That animal doesn't exist anymore.

That's conveniant, some animal that no one knows about that doesn't exist anymore. But It must have existed because evolution is true! Here is a perfect illustration of evolutionists. They start out with the assumption that evolution is true and then try to explain it.

Are you just acting dumb or are you really that logically challenged?

I always know I'm winning an argument when the other side resorts to personal attacks

I disagree with your statement.

The scientific theory of evolution says nothing about god or the salvation of man through a saviour.

The evolutionist who tries to use evolution to argue against god or Jesus is misusing the theory.  He's as foolish as someone trying to use the bible to disprove evolution.

Evolution only picks up from the point of the first lifeform(s) on earth.  It says nothing about how they got on earth, which would seem to leave the door wide open for god to come in.  

also, evolution doesn't look for "the next great advancement" of the species.   I think you've seen The X-men too much.  One theory is that when we started using our brains to do the heavy work via tools instead of our bodies, we caused a major slowdown in evolution.  We change our environment so our bodies don't need to change to cope with changing conditions.  

i'm not really interested in arguing the points but would be glad to clarify the above

There is no God.

Just curious:

Why can't we simply agree to disagree?  Soon enough each and every one of us will be dead, and then we'll KNOW who's right, won't we?  Until then, all we can do is argue.

Quoted: Quoted: That's conveniant, some animal that no one knows about that doesn't exist anymore. But It must have existed because evolution is true! Here is a perfect illustration of evolutionists. They start out with the assumption that evolution is true and then try to explain it. Does the Dodo bird still exist? Why no, it doesn't. Your great great great grandparents don't exist anymore, so therefore you must not exist. Right?

Yes, the Dodo is extinct But there is plenty of  evidence that they existed. And human reproduction is a well documented fact therefore I can safely assume I had great great great grandparents. But evolution is not a proven fact (hence the name Evolutionary Theory) Therefore I cannot assume there is some yet undiscovered animal I evolved from.

Threads like this REALLY make me worry about some of you.  Really.

You go on and on about how you just have to believe in creationism, yet get divorced, go to strip clubs, drink, smoke, lie, cheat steal.....
Yeah, I don't believe in creationism and that's going to put me deeper into hell than you?

I gues this is yet another example of the religious right wrong taking the easy road.

SO YOU DON'T THINK MAN CAME FROM APES DO YOU?




I only put this in here because trying to discuss someting like this on the internet is a waste of time.

Quoted: SO YOU DON'T THINK MAN CAME FROM APES DO YOU? www.hollywoodjesus.com/movie/planet_apes/02.jpg I only put this in here because trying to discuss someting like this on the internet is a waste of time.

CRAP! I for got about Planet of the Apes! I take everything back, evolution is true

If evolution is based on pragmatism and necessity then why do male humans and apes have nipples?

+1 CJ

Quoted: "So you can understand why I hate the lie of evolution...  " Actually, no, I can't.

+1

can't believe in both, eh?

Quoted: If evolution is based on pragmatism and necessity then why do male humans and apes have nipples?

Hey, some guys have boobs

Quoted: If evolution is based on pragmatism and necessity then why do male humans and apes have nipples?

Because primary sexual organ development is dependent on hormones produced in the embryo during gestation.  One set of hormones produces a penis and testes, another set of hormones produces a clitoris and ovaries.  The nipples are not part of that hormonal development, they're developed even if the hormonal mechanism of primary sexual characteristics completely fails.  

Given the right (or wrong) hormones during development, a "male" can develop functional breasts.

No kidding.

Better living through chemicals.

Quoted: Quoted: Its a proven fact animals evolve. Humans are animals. Yes, they do. No sensible individual argues that. But they DO NOT MACRO evolve - from apes into humans. But again, the details of evoution aren't really the point.

apes didn't evolve into humans.   At some point in the past a genetic ancestor of both apes and humans walked the earth.  Call us cousins :p

Quoted: If evolution is based on pragmatism and necessity then why do male humans and apes have nipples?

Human males can produce milk.

Quoted: Evolution is just the name that we have given to the work that God does.

+1  

I'm not a believer but that seems a much better viewpoint to take.   Most people I know who are religious view science as strengthening their faith.

for those who don't get it read my sig....

Quoted: Quoted: Apes don't evolve into humans.  You really don't understand evolution, do you? Then how come we share 95% DNA and what animal did we evolve from?? We have a common ancestor but we didn't evolve from apes.  Understand?

Don't we also share a lot of DNA with bananas and worms? Are we related to bananas and worms?

Quoted: If evolution is based on pragmatism and necessity then why do male humans and apes have nipples?

Vestigial, why do you have an apendix.

And just for the record im going to give the simplest explination of evolution and how it works, to educate those that think its untrue.
EVOLUTION IS NOT
Boy1:"Oh shit, i need some flipper, i better go grow some."

EVOLUTION IS
Boy1:"hahahaha, look at flipper boy, taht freak. Im going swimming."
Flipper boy:"shut up"
Boy1:"OH SHIT IM DROWNDING, HELP ME FLIPPER BOY!!!!!"
Flipper boy dosent save him, and never drowneds casue he has flippers.

evolution is an ongoing natural selection. its like making a copy of a copy of a copy times a million, eventually it looks ENTIRELY diffrent. But if you still keep making copies of the older copies (like apes still reporducing), they look closer to the original.

Quoted: [Steven Wright]If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?[/Steven Wright]

Quoted: Evolution is the truth.   Get over it. CJ

Evolution is mathmatically as close  to impossible as you can get. It doesn't hold up to any logical scrutiny. and  everytime someone points out a flaw in evolution, evolutionists change the rules.

for example: why can't we see examples of animals evolving in nature?

New Theory:

theory is that once a species achieves sufficient intelligence to manipulate its environment adequately, it then effectively freezes the evolutionary process for any contenders to the throne of dominant intelligent species.

so I guess I won't "get Over It".

If I see some hard proof that evolution exists (other than were here, so it exists) I'll be the first one in line fo my "I'm an Evolutionists" t-shirt.

Also I'm not a hard core creationist (not in the traditional sense)  So how do I think we came into being? I have no Idea.

Quoted: Quoted: [Steven Wright]If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?[/Steven Wright]

Because evolution dosent dictate taht they must disappear just becasue we evolved. And those species that where inbetween could not adapt to some new conditions taht we and the apes did adapt to.

Quoted: 3: I like how smug some non believers become when we discuss Bible issues. There are some very intelligent people that believe in God. Einstein believed in God (read that in the new Discover issue on him). Hawking believes in God ("A Brief History of Time").

umm yes if your god is the god of Spinoza.  God is a word that has no real meaning unless you specifically define it.  Einstein did define his concept of god and it had nothing to do with the Christian god.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." [From a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954. It is included in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, published by Princeton University Press.

If this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him? [Albert Einstein, Out of My Later Years (New York: Philosophical Library, 1950), p. 27.]

During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution, human fantasy created gods in man's own image who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate influence, the phenomenal world... The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a sublimation of that old conception of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes... In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vase power in the hands of priests. [Albert Einstein, reported in Science, Philosophy and Religion: A Symposium, edited by L. Bryson and L. Finkelstein. Quoted in: 2000 Years of Disbelief. by James Haught]

"Thus I came...to a deep religiosity, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of 12. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached a conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true....Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience...an attitude which has never left me." [The Quotable Einstein]

Hawkings views on religion are well known,   His wife is religius (protestant, not sure which denomination) but he is not.

What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary. [Stephen W. Hawking, Der Spiegel, 1989]

One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics. [Stephen Hawking, Black Holes & Baby Universes]

also his rap songs make it clear that his not a believer MC HAWKING My favorite is "Fuck the creationists"

*FOR THE OBTUSE, THAT LAST PART WAS A JOKE*

uhhh, it's a different belief than you have. get over it.

Quoted: Never seen a fundamental contradiction between Christianity and the Theory of Evolution. Evolution deals with the physical, Christianity with the spiritual. God set up the rules to this universe, and I don't see how evolution violates those rules. No offense, but I think that people overly concerned on the alleged contradiction between evolution and Christianity are wasting their time. YMMV.

Some one give this man a medal.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Evolution is just the name that we have given to the work that God does. +1 I still don't see why people have so much trouble roconciling faith and science. Must be an ego thing. Actually, I would argue that it's not the religious that have the problem, it's the non-religious that seem to take huge leaps of faith (ironic, isn't it?) in a desperate attempt to prove that everything came from nothing, life came from lifelessness, conciousness came from unconciusness, etc. Someone have ABSOLUTE PROOF of evolution? Show it to me, and I'll believe it, simply because the facts are right there. However, there is NO evidence, only conjecture, to support Darwinism. NONE. No evidence of any pre-biotic soup. No evidence of transitional fossils. No evidence of bottom-up evolution. etc. I reject Darwinism not because I am Christian, but rather because it is BAD SCIENCE. Give me another theory with factual  support, and I'll listen, and my faith won't be moved one iota. Good luck...

umm bullshit, you reject it only because of your religious bias.

http://www.talkorigins.org/www.talkorigins.org/ has a ton of info you can read that addresses any questions you could have on evolution.  It even addresses your pre-biotic soup, although thats the theory of abiogenesis NOT the theory of evolution.

Btw I keep seeing the USNA 91 and wonder how you did 4 years at the Naval Academy where they most certainly teach evolution as science.    Were you a poli-sci major or something?