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Posted: 9/22/2004 7:40:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Here's what a lot of people miss when talking about pistol caliber subguns. The main strength is zero recoil, minimal flash and noise. For VIP stuff, ESPECIALLY INDOORS, you don't want a loud ass 5.56 going off. You want a gun that recoils like a BB gun and doesn't bust your eardrums. This lets you rapidly engage multiple targets or successive follow up shots. If you are in the field, then 9mm has definite weaknesses and that is where the 5.56 becomes preferrable. These are all just tools, smart operators pick the best one for the job at hand. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 7:44:13 PM EDT
[#2]
I have recently been thinking about this. Rather than pay for a transferable MP5, I think I'm just going to get an AR15 SBR and a 11.5 upper, maybe one in 5.56 and one in 9mm. With a collapsible stock, it should be quite concealable.
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Posted: 9/22/2004 7:47:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Pick yer' tool!!!!!     
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Posted: 9/22/2004 7:51:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Guys,
Brouhaha is right on. 5.56mm ammo from an 8" barrel = .22Mag performance. And the P90 is slightly worse, but the absolute WORST performer is the HK MP7. The 4.6mm round performs WORSE than round nose .22LR! Okay, so all of the above DO manage to penetrate soft body armor, yes, but their wound potential is TINY. The only reason they are at all effective is because they can be used in full-auto to spray 5-to-10-round bursts into a bad guy. And don't think that's going to be easy with the HK "MP53," though it is doable with the P90 and MP7. And the XM8's standard barrel is 12.3", and yes, performance with current M855 will be absolutely abysmal in that barrel. Even worse will be the ~8" "CQB" version. But soldiers love short guns (their KEWL!), and very few know *anything* about terminal ballistic performance, so it may well happen. At least with a short-barreled 6.8 SPC, you could still have good performance, as the 6.8 is still fragmenting past 100m from a 12" barrel. Anyway, an MP5K, using good hollowpoint ammo such as Ranger-T or GoldDots, has a significant performance advantage over any of the above weapons, INCLUDING shooting through barriers. The ONLY drawback is that they can't penetrate soft armor of Level II or above. -Troy |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 7:59:14 PM EDT
[#5]
 
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:01:43 PM EDT
[#6]
So you would agree that a 10.5" 9mm would be superior to a 10.5" or less 5.56, then? |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:10:19 PM EDT
[#7]
.223 super-short barrel rifle vs. 9mm SMG....
Why not a Colt 10mm carbine? 10mm is freakin' powerful. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:11:19 PM EDT
[#8]
because they don't make one? |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:19:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Troy abd Steyr Aug are right on. With the right ammo 9mm is preferable to a 8inched barreled 5.56. The noise difference between a 16 and 20 inch barrel is huge. Imagine if you cut that down to 8. The unburned power is going to get the shooter like a flash bang. Disorientate the shooter and has his team. We wont even get into the poor ballistic performance from a 8 inch barrel.
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:24:25 PM EDT
[#10]
Colt doesn't. I think some other brand does. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:30:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Olympic does. Colt would if someone ordered enough of them.
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:39:56 PM EDT
[#12]
A 10.5" 5.56mm (which wasn't the subject above; we were talking about ~8" barrels), with a 1:7-twist barrel and shooting Mk262 ammo, will have a fragmentation range of about 25-30m and can penetrate vests, so that does have some use, but those are specific requirements, and other ammo in that gun cannot duplicate that performance. An 8" 5.56mm isn't going to have any usable fragmentation distance with ANY ammo, so unless you are certain that the bad guys are wearing armor, a 9mm carbine (barrel length between 5"-12") is going to be a far better performer. -Troy |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:42:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Ok, I'm not a big fan of .223 as an all around do everything cartridge. As a matter of fact in this situation if I wanted a rifle caliber Id go with something like 7.62x39. Its not speed dependant, penetrates good and leaves a good size hole. But heres my question. Off the shelf .223 is horrible out of a 12" or shorter barrel since its loaded for 18"+, what would be the process for loading it with faster burning powder? I think you could do a lot more with the added case capacity, better ballistics capability, tried and true rifle platform, etc. I dont see why it cant be done, but havent seen it done yet. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 9:11:58 PM EDT
[#14]
About using the MP5 to protect Kofi Annan... hmmm... let me think... is protecting a member of the UN who repeatedly criticizes the U.S. and then asks for our aid a high priority for me??
And the answer is: *DING* *DING* *DING* *DING* HELL NO!! |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 9:13:35 PM EDT
[#15]
I never thought I would agree with that, so before I started typing I took a calculater, and pencil/paper and hammerd it out. Then I looked into the arcives of my battered brain, and found several lesson learned the HARD WAY. Refecting on those mistake, if I had the aboved mentionedknowledge, things woud have went alot better And I DO agree with you 100%. You learn something new as long as your looking. Wealth of knowledge here, one would be foolish not to listen to the pros. thank! Me learned sumpin.  Eddited to say Kerry is a booger eater, and there needs to be an add. Who wants a commie booger eater?  |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 9:53:02 PM EDT
[#16]
You gotta remember what the P90 and HK MP7 were designed for. Ballistically they are as weak as you say but if you had a busload of hostages being held by terrorists in body armor they would be the guns to use. Again they are just tools. You can't say a screwdriver sucks because it won't drive nails. Pick the right tool for the right job. We had problems in Somalia with the SS109 round going through basically naked Somalians. Doesn't mean the round sucks, just means .55 grain would have worked better. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 10:39:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Oh, believe me, I know. They were designed based on a US military request, based on specs that really didn't allow for the gun to have acceptable terminal ballistics. As is often the case, folks in the military want the impossible and know very little about ammo performance. They wanted a body-armor-piercing round that had very little recoil and very high mag capacities. They got it. 
In that specific instance, I might well select the P90, yes. The very cramped quarters and the body armor on the Tangos wouldn't leave me a whole lot of choice. You are absolutely correct that it is a tool that has a use. The issue is that it is a SPECIALTY tool with a very narrow niche, and most folks don't seem to realize that, and seem to be recommending it for much broader use. As you said, the right tool for the right job. An AR is kind of like a socket set with a bunch of common attachments, whereas the P90 is kind of like a 12.5mm security Torx wrench. When you need it, it's the only tool that will do the job, but it rightly spends most of the time rolling around in the toolbox, gathering dust. 
Well, what it *really* meant is that M855 and short barrels are a terrible combination, and this theme applies to nearly any bullet that needs much higher velocities in order to perform. -Troy |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 10:50:14 PM EDT
[#18]
i would go w/ the pdw or sd3 if it were indoors
all around, i'll try out the new p-90 overall, i'll go w/ a m4 |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 11:39:42 PM EDT
[#19]
From the HK web site...does anybody know if this is true?
"What appears upon first look to be a weapon design to compete with the FN series P90 in 5.7mm x 28, the PDW promises to be a huge improvement on that system." Though no one could fault the engineers at Fabrique Nationale for their vision, the P90 has one reported serious flaw." "If you drop a partially loaded magazine, or the gun with a partially loaded magazine, rounds will go flying, get disoriented in the magazine and seriously jam the mechanism." |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 11:51:31 PM EDT
[#20]
It depends.
Do your weapons have to be concealed? If so, the MP5K PDW is the answer. That said, it's a pistol round. If you can go overt, then the M4 is the way to go. Rifle ballistics in a relatively small and light package that's short enough to be as maneuverable as the MP5. A 10.5" upper like the offering from LMT makes it even more so. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 12:45:48 AM EDT
[#21]
Good thread this and learned a lot……
So in a nutshell would I be right in saying… If the potential Bad Guys are just lightly armed 'locals' who are unlikely to have body armor… the 9mm MP5k is the best weapon for the job. If however, you think the Bad Guys may have a clue and will be wearing body armour get a .223 SBR like the MP53 or Colt commando… Andy |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 12:50:57 AM EDT
[#22]
Has anyone seen insurgents in armor? I haven't, but I would like to know if any are armored.
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Posted: 9/23/2004 6:08:56 AM EDT
[#23]
There are some 9mm rounds that penetrate armor much better than other 9mm rounds. I can think of one HP loading that reputably will defeat vests that easily defeat other 9mm rounds. If you have a full auto 9mm a multiple round burst striking the same area of the vest is very likely to overwhelm it. Not to mention MP-5's are accurate and quick, so failure drill....................... |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 6:34:37 AM EDT
[#24]
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the MP5/10? I know they are no longer made, but I always liked the idea of a 10mm subgun, especially if it could handle real 10mm loads....Just a thought.
The P90 has a very specific spectrum in which it is useful, but beyond that I wouldn't trust it. The best answer is to have a mix of weapons on a protection team designed to handle whatever comes. But in VIP protection the main issue will be what you can get away with carrying. In lots of places, you can't "appear" to be heavliy armed. Thus whatever you can reliably conceal will get carried regardless of terminal ballistics. The main goal of a team is to get the principal out of the area ASAP. While they are concerned with ballistic efficiency, the main focus is having the ability to lay down enough firepower to break through an ambush. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 6:52:29 AM EDT
[#25]
My vote goes to the Russian-made SR-3 Vikhr loaded with SP-6 AP ammo. The 9mm round creates a decent permanent wound cavity, the round is designed to reliably penetrate body armor, and the overall length of the weapon with the stock folded is only 14" OAL, the same size as an MP5K. Attach a compact suppressor, redesign the charging handle, magazine release and sighting system, integrate a bolt hold-open device, and IMHO, the Vikhr would make a most superior PSD firearm.
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Posted: 9/23/2004 7:13:16 AM EDT
[#26]
It fires 9x39mm ammunition…  That's going to leave a mark! .  Andy |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 7:13:21 AM EDT
[#27]
As usual no argument here. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 7:16:42 AM EDT
[#28]
I think HK was on target with their MP545 prototype. It had all the features of the MP540 and MP510 such as the bolt hold open, etc. Sadly they decided to innovate a new firearm the UMP which in many ways was a step backwards. Had they fully developed the MP545 and the MP545K-PDW I think they would have achieved a new standard for others to follow. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 7:19:20 AM EDT
[#29]
Specifically you want the MP5K PDW. For .223 I don't think you want a SBR, you probably want M4s. The only time those super shorties make sense is in examples like the DOE guns where the tight confines of a nuclear facility require them. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 7:28:34 AM EDT
[#30]
That's what I want! And besides, the way those AP rounds penetrate, you could take out 3-4 people with one round! 
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Posted: 9/23/2004 7:45:30 AM EDT
[#31]
No, If conceiled carry was the issue I would carry the new FN PDW in 5.7 cal., If not I would carry a real short barreled M16 (12 inch or so), The reason is that most of the real bad guys today wear body armor & the Pistol caliber MP5 will not cut it.
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Posted: 9/23/2004 8:01:55 AM EDT
[#32]
I think you will find that the DOE guns were/are 9mm. I don't get the short-barreled rifle trend at all. An M1 Carbine or a Thompson would do better for typical bodyguard distances than a short-barreled AR or HK53. Some people just think 9x19 is terrible. Multiple hits on center mass are most often fatal though. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 8:14:23 AM EDT
[#33]
Yep. That's what I would use. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 8:15:43 AM EDT
[#34]
9" |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 8:54:49 AM EDT
[#35]
 G36K… mmmm? |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 9:16:40 AM EDT
[#36]
Whats wrong with a nice 10" AR?
They work now, and even at its worst at that short length a 5.56 is going to do way more damage than a 9mm-even M855 would probably be useful but if not use M193 or Mk262 or buy commercial JSP like Federal or Winchester 64gr. I think the people who carry the HKs in Iraq are either just trying to be different so they are not identified with Americans or they got exceptional deals from HK on the price. Carrying .223 means you have to worry a little less on the intel of your threats being spot on. Whether its because they show up with armor or decide to ambush you along the one open field on your route... |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 9:16:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Yeah, what he said. They should protect Annan with Super Soakers loaded with pig urine!
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Posted: 9/23/2004 9:18:06 AM EDT
[#38]
SSK industries offered virtually the same thing with the .300 and .338 Whispers There have been no takers on our side. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 10:12:01 AM EDT
[#39]
A 10" AR with Mk262 *would* do the job, but as Steyr and others have pointed out, you must also think about things like muzzle blast, flash, and recoil/full-auto controlability. Again, this is in a specific scenario such as a crowded bus full of hostages and a few Tangos. If you're talking about CQB in a war zone, where you don't have the political issues of civilian hostages and TV coverage, then, absolutely, you're better off with the 10" AR w/Mk262 (though I'd recommend 11.5" minimum). -Troy |
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