Quoted: Ahhhh, but that's where you are wrong. Iran is indeed a spark away from revolution and have been for years. Much of the Iranian population likes the idea of Western culture but are held back by a Taliban type government. The situation in Iran has more in common with the Taliban than with Saddam or Iraq. You saw what happened among the people when we ignited the spark in A-Stan didn't you? That country was also very nationalistic. But they saw their government as a far bigger enemy than us and helped us fight.

First off.... again... have you ever talked to an Iranian. No. Secondly.... have you ever been to Iran. No. Third.... you are basing you certainty that Iranians are a spark away from revolution based on media reports that are widely biased to suit US option. Not even US "experts" agree on this... usually it is the type of garbage that only the neo-cons propagate.

Not very realistic. Iranians do not want another bloody revolution.... they want gradual political change through the system.... not a revolution. Even though these political changes have been resisted by the mullahs.... Iranians aren't willing to start killing each other to see change.

Quoted: Besides, Iran isn't a nation we are going to invade and occupy. If we hit them, it'll be airstrikes or quick incursions. It won't be done in the same manner as Iraq.

Exactly why there will not be a revolution.

Everything we are discussing here is based on assumption. Thankfully, we have people in charge who know all the details and who are at this moment putting all the details and a plan together. These are people with far more military knowledge than you or I could ever hope to have. That's good enough for me. We'll figure out a way to get the job done. The Israelis will figure out a way to get the job done. Why? Because we both always have.

That in the end is really all that matters.

Why is everyone thinking that Israel will use those bombs on Iran?  Looks like they would be but to better use in dropping them on Syrian bunkers that shelter Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists.

Quoted: Quoted: I love how people always refer to the statement that Iran is just a spark away from a revolution.... when they have never actually visited the country or talked to an actual Iranian. How would you know???

I worked for the Anglo Iranian Oil Company… been there… done that… Redam be da-hanet!

Andy

Iran is an Islamofacist state.   On more than one occasion, they have openly advocated the destruction of Israel and the United States.  They are the financial and weapons suppliers for Hezbolla in their attacks on Israel.  They currently have terror cells operating in Iraq.  They ARE the real enemy of the United States and the free world now.  Iraq is our surrogate in this war against Islamofacism.  They want to control the Middle East and export radical Islam to the world.  We have driven a stake through their plans with our successful invasion of Iraq.  They could handle a weakened Saddam.  They can't abide a strong American military advance base right next door...which is why they are pushing back so hard right now with all the terror attacks.  They FEAR us...and they will develop nukes if left alone.  We can't allow that.

Iran must NOT be permitted to gain access to a nuclear weapon.  If they acquire one, rest assured it will find its way to Tel Aviv or New York or Washington DC.

Quoted: Everything we are discussing here is based on assumption. Thankfully, we have people in charge who know all the details and who are at this moment putting all the details and a plan together. These are people with far more military knowledge than you or I could ever hope to have. That's good enough for me. We'll figure out a way to get the job done. The Israelis will figure out a way to get the job done. Why? Because we both always have. That in the end is really all that matters.

Yes... the same people who planned out Iraq so well... and who have such a great record on intelligence. You keep crossing your fingers.... I'm going to start building that fallout shelter I always wanted to build before Iran puts the finishing touches on the Shahab-5 they've got on the drawing board. But its good you're a positive thinker.

Quoted: Quoted: Ahhhh, but that's where you are wrong. Iran is indeed a spark away from revolution and have been for years. Much of the Iranian population likes the idea of Western culture but are held back by a Taliban type government. The situation in Iran has more in common with the Taliban than with Saddam or Iraq. You saw what happened among the people when we ignited the spark in A-Stan didn't you? That country was also very nationalistic. But they saw their government as a far bigger enemy than us and helped us fight. First off.... again... have you ever talked to an Iranian. No. Secondly.... have you ever been to Iran. No. Third.... you are basing you certainty that Iranians are a spark away from revolution based on media reports that are widely biased to suit US option. Not very realistic. Iranians do not want another bloody revolution.... they want gradual political change through the system.... not a revolution. Even though these political changes have been resisted by the mullahs.... Iranians aren't willing to start killing each other to see change. Ahhhh, but that's where you are wrong. Iran is indeed a spark away from revolution and have been for years. Much of the Iranian population likes the idea of Western culture but are held back by a Taliban type government. The situation in Iran has more in common with the Taliban than with Saddam or Iraq. You saw what happened among the people when we ignited the spark in A-Stan didn't you? That country was also very nationalistic. But they saw their government as a far bigger enemy than us and helped us fight. Quoted: Besides, Iran isn't a nation we are going to invade and occupy. If we hit them, it'll be airstrikes or quick incursions. It won't be done in the same manner as Iraq. Exactly why there will not be a revolution.

BTW, who the fuck died and made you the resident Middle East and nuclear expert here anyway? You act as if you are some sort of fucking genius and we are all stupid. I have seen nothing from you that would indicate you are more intelligent or privy to more information than the rest of us. So stop acting like you are some sort of frigging expert. If you were, you wouldn't be hanging out here with us. LOL. Just give it up and conclude we disagree about what to do with Iran. None of us are experts anyway, so what the hell does it matter what we think? The big guys will have a plan. That's what really matters. You and I are just piss ants here to watch the show.

-CH

Quoted: Iran must NOT be permitted to gain access to a nuclear weapon.  If they acquire one, rest assured it will find its way to Tel Aviv or New York or Washington DC.

That is not true... Iran is not stupid... they know if a bomb went off in a US or Israel city and it could be provide or even assumed they supplied it.... they would be nuked. They are not suicidal. If they had nukes... they would be used as political leverage and as deterence only.

They are rational political actors.... not just Islamofisicts that don't understand how the world works.

Quoted: Quoted: Iran must NOT be permitted to gain access to a nuclear weapon.  If they acquire one, rest assured it will find its way to Tel Aviv or New York or Washington DC. That is not true... Iran is not stupid... .

And with that comment you prove conclusively you dont have a fucking clue! So, let me see, EVERYONE in the US and Isreali Intel, Military and Political arena is totally WRONG… but YOU are TOTALLY RIGHT! And EVERY MULLAH who advocates nuking Israel is lying because you said so…

I'LL SPELL IT OUT AGAIN SO YOU CAN READ IT BETTER! IF you (Iran) only have ONE bomb and your POTENTIAL ADVERSARY (Israel) has hundreds… you HAVE TO USE IT FIRST because if you don't IT IS A CERTAINTY that your adversary will try and take out your weapon. Mutally Assured Destruction only works when there is a balance of Terror not when one side has a 100% numerical advantage…

You seem to actually relish the idea of a Nuclear Armed Iran and accept it as a given… would you explain to us why this is so?

ANdy

No point in trying to debate with him Vito. He's an expert and we're just a bunch of dumb loons without a clue. I mean afterall, he knows more than the CIA, the MI5, KGB, FBI, ATF, PTA and PETA.

Quoted: BTW, who the fuck died and made you the resident Middle East and nuclear expert here anyway? You act as if you are some sort of fucking genius and we are all stupid. I have seen nothing from you that would indicate you are more intelligent or privy to more information than the rest of us. So stop acting like you are some sort of frigging expert. If you were, you wouldn't be hanging out here with us. LOL. Just give it up and conclude we disagree about what to do with Iran. None of us are experts anyway, so what the hell does it matter what we think? The big guys will have a plan. That's what really matters. You and I are just piss ants here to watch the show. H

LOL.... agreed. I didn't mean to imply I was smarter of better than anyone else. I just enjoy the whole acedemic debate thing.

It's only that political science was my major in college and that I wrote a 75 page thesis on the topic... it gives me a very large interest and strong opinion on the topic.

By no means did I mean to offend anyone. I just love to debate strategic planning and defense policy because it is what I'm interested in and have been so since college.

In no way did I mean to belittle anyone's opinions. Everyone is obviously free to believe whatever they want... and that why our nation is so great... others aren't so lucky.

I come here to hang out becuz I love guns.... period... and I enjoy talking about them with all ARFCOMers.

So... lets love guns... and shake hands.... because this was unwinnable argument from the start. No one can predict the future... and there are too many unknowns for anyone to have a true insight into what the reality is on the ground.

We'll just have to wait and see.

Hope everything is cool .... not trying to step on people's toes... just strongly opinionated.

Cheers

Quoted: No point in trying to debate with him Vito. He's an expert and we're just a bunch of dumb loons without a clue. I mean afterall, he knows more than the CIA, the MI5, KGB, FBI, ATF, PTA and PETA.

Too true, were just stoopid… however I have given him the NSA's number so he can fill them in on what they don't know and were the Adminstration are going wrong…

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Iran must NOT be permitted to gain access to a nuclear weapon.  If they acquire one, rest assured it will find its way to Tel Aviv or New York or Washington DC. That is not true... Iran is not stupid... . And with that comment you prove conclusively you dont have a fucking clue! So, let me see, EVERYONE in the US and Isreali Intel, Military and Political arena is totally WRONG… but YOU are TOTALLY RIGHT! And EVERY MULLAH who advocates nuking Israel is lying because you said so… I'LL SPELL IT OUT AGAIN SO YOU CAN READ IT BETTER! IF you (Iran) only have ONE bomb and your POTENTIAL ADVERSARY (Israel) has hundreds… you HAVE TO USE IT FIRST because if you don't IT IS A CERTAINTY that your adversary will try and take out your weapon. Mutally Assured Destruction only works when there is a balance of Terror not when one side has a 100% numerical advantage… You seem to actually relish the idea of a Nuclear Armed Iran and accept it as a given… would you explain to us why this is so? ANdy

If you can take out Israel with one nuke... and Iran is able to make a small number... let's say 10... mission accomplished.  MAD is accomplished. You are right... use or lose gives them an incentive to lauch first... but only if they think Israel plans to launch an attack on them.... only if they believe Israel will initiate a pre-emptive strike.

The politicians and Israel aren't worried about  Iran getting a nuke because they are really afraid Iran will use it... they don't want Iran to get the political leverage a nuclear capability would afford. Iran could then increase its support to HAMAS and other terrorist groups without fear of much reprisal. This is why they don't want Iran to have nukes. The chance Iran would start a nuclear war... is extremely remote. If you want to argue the % of possibility... or that even any possibility is too much.... I agree.... but still.... it isn't the primary reason.

Secondly... the fact that Iran openly says it wants to destroy israel is just rhetoric... what do you expect them to say.... Israel please don't use your military superiority to beat us up???

Don't know what you are thinking on that one.

Lastly... I don't relish the idea of them going nuclear.... I am simply telling you what I believe will happen. the fact that I'm approaching this from an objective... non-emotional view.... making me non-bias in anyone's favor.... does not make me an agent of the mullahs... nor sympthetic to them. I love my country and please don't insinuate differently in the future. I take offense to such accusations.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Iran must NOT be permitted to gain access to a nuclear weapon.  If they acquire one, rest assured it will find its way to Tel Aviv or New York or Washington DC. You are right... use or lose gives them an incentive to lauch first... but only if they think Israel plans to launch an attack on them.... only if they believe Israel will initiate a pre-emptive strike.

Israels policy has always been pre-emptive strike in this type of  situation… think Osirak

Andy

Then Israel and Iran may both end up glowing in the dark for the next 10,000 years. That kinda of policy is going to make things very dangerous in the future. Cuz I don't see Iran being stopped beofre they break the nuclear threshold, IMHO.

When I said Iran would launch nukes only if they thought Israeli was going to engage if a pre-emptive strike... I meant a nuclear pre-emptive strike, not a conventional strike.

And when Israel launched that non-nuclear pre-emptive strike on Iraq... Iraq wasn't a nuclear power... Israel would probably be a little more prudent in this type of senario... you would hope at least.

Quoted: And when Israel launched that non-nuclear pre-emptive strike on Iraq... Iraq wasn't a nuclear power... Israel would probably be a little more prudent in this type of senario... you would hope at least.

The Jews nearly became extinct in WWII, they, as a matter of Government Policy since 1947, don't intend to ever be put in that situation again… speak to some Israelis and you will find that if they are 'going down' they want to take the rest of the Middle East with them…

ANdy

Well... I'm glad I don't live in the Middle East then cuz it could be a little smoggy for the next 10,000 years if some crazy shit goes down.

BTW... like I stated before.... if Iran was nuked.... and their oil became radioactive.... and fallout spread to other neighboring oil producing countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia... Oil would shoot up to around $200 dollars a barrel. We would be fucked.

Shit happens…

ANdy

Look... I get it. You guys are pro-Israel. Really... I get it. I was just trying to introduce a opinion that was not based on loyalty to any one group or nation.... only what I believe to be the reality as it exists today. Nothing wrong with taking Israel's side.... it just leads to impassioned emotional arguments when you do choose sides. I was trying to be objective. My bad... I didn't know that wasn't allowed here. Pro-Israeli crack the mullahs over the head statements only I guess.hinking.gif

Radioactivity is over rated… Hiroshima ans Nagasaki were thriving cities again within a few years of been treated to 'instant sunshine'… It ain't the end of the world being nuked…

ANdy

Quoted: Radioactivity is over rated… Hiroshima ans Nagasaki were thriving cities again within a few years of been treated to 'instant sunshine'… It ain't the end of the world being nuked… ANdy

First off... they were nuked with weapons with yeidls of 12 to 20 kt. Israel has thermonuclear weapons... which means in the hundreds of kilo-tons of destruction with just one bomb. Much different situation. Hello!!!

Secondly.... getting nuked isn't that big of a deal.... or if it ain't the end of the world as you say... then I'm sure then Israel won't mind getting nuked right??? Why would Israel be worried about getting nuked if it "ain't the end of the world".

That was an outrageous comment. I can't believe you said that.I suggest you go talk to the survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki  bombs and see if it was a big deal getting nuked with much inferior nuclear weapons.  Over 100,000 were killed. Many more would die today in a nuclear exchange due to the increased power of the weapons.

Quoted: Well... I'm glad I don't live in the Middle East then cuz it could be a little smoggy for the next 10,000 years if some crazy shit goes down. BTW... like I stated before.... if Iran was nuked.... and their oil became radioactive.... and fallout spread to other neighboring oil producing countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia... Oil would shoot up to around $200 dollars a barrel. We would be fucked.

Its at over $50 now... what do you think will happen if the middle east has a mushroom cloud hovering over it.

You're  

Quoted: Quoted: Radioactivity is over rated… Hiroshima ans Nagasaki were thriving cities again within a few years of been treated to 'instant sunshine'… It ain't the end of the world being nuked… ANdy First off... they were nuclear with weapons with yeidls of 12 to 20 kt. Israel has thermonuclear weapons... which means in the hundreds of kilo-tons of destruction with just one bomb. Much different situation. Hello!!! Secondly.... getting nuked isn't that big of a deal.... or if it ain't the end of the world as you say... then I'm sure then Israel won't mind getting nuked right??? Why would Israel be worried about getting nuked if it "ain't the end of the world". That was an outrageous comment. I can't believe you said that. I suggest you go talk to the survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki  bombs and see if it was a big deal getting nuclear with much inferior nuclear weapons.  Over 100,000 were killed. Many more would die today in a nuclear exchange due to the increased power of the weapons.

Firstly… Israel is believed to have around 200 Tactical Nukes and around 10 Thermonuclear weapons… FACT a 500Kt Bomb does not do 40 times more damage than a 12Kt device… read the manuals…or ask Eodtech2000 for info

It's not an outrageous comment and I did say it…

The Japanese got what they deserved… don't something you can't finish and don't start a war with the biggest dog in the fight!

Andy

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I love how people always refer to the statement that Iran is just a spark away from a revolution.... when they have never actually visited the country or talked to an actual Iranian. How would you know??? I worked for the Anglo Iranian Oil Company… been there… done that… Redam be da-hanet! Andy

Which most likely means you haven't talked to an Iranian inside Iran since the days of the shah....  which means that you haen't been there since 1979 most likely... which would mean you know nothing about how today's Iranian thinks.

For you aspiring warhawks, a few facts about Iran:

Did you know that Persia is one of the oldest civilizations in the world? And that Persia was once one of the largest empires the world had ever seen?

Did you know that, even though Persia has lost battles, it has never been conquered even once in over 3,000 years?

Did you know that Iran has more than three times the population of Iraq, and 63% of that population is under 31 years old? Did you also know that, geographically speaking, Iran is four times larger than Iraq?

Did you know that Iran's economy was twelve times the size of Iraq's, as of 2003?

Did you also know that, although no one is sure of the total casualties during the Iran-Iraq war of 1979 to 1988, estimates range from 800,000 to 1 million dead, at least 2 million wounded, and more than 80,000 taken prisoner? That there were approximately 2.5 million who became refugees and whose cities were destroyed? That the financial cost is estimated at a minimum of $200 billion? And even though, according to some estimates, Iran lost about one million soldiers, it was still not defeated?

What I found outrageous is that you stated that getting nuked was no big deal. And that is outrageous. That many people dying is a big deal.... whether you take a side or not. There are innocent people on both sides of a nuclear war, and many people that didn't deserve to die would in such an exchange.

Quoted: Its at over $50 now... what do you think will happen if the middle east has a mushroom cloud hovering over it. You're

Your assumption that the oil will become radioactive pure bunk!  Only a nuke deposited deep down in a quite a few wells can cause severe contamination of the Iranian supply. The wells aren't targets for nukes. Fallout is not a major concern for oil and unless we used Castle Bravo sized ground bursts, most of the fallout will be local.

And then who is going to work in the oil fields, tending to the wells... YOU??? Feel free to die of radiation sickness.

And how the hell do you know that such a senario you hightlight will not occur???

Because we don't have to nuke the fields, if we want to "nuke" the fields, we use Enhanced Energy Warhead aka Neutron bomb high in the area, no fallout but lots of stinking corpes.

Only a handful of Iranian facilities MIGHT need the aid of a "dial a yield" nuclear penetrator.  Anything on the surface doesn't really need to be nuked unless we really insist on making a statement for which a airburst B83 at full yield will disintergrate anything around it.

Start from the basis that a nuclear armed Iran is a very bad thing....anything that you do to prevent it up to and including the atom bombing of  the holy cities is acceptable.  Don't want to get destroyed?  Stop your hostilites towards the west.  Otherwise live or in this case die with the consequences.

Quoted: For you aspiring warhawks, a few facts about Iran: Did you know that Persia is one of the oldest civilizations in the world? And that Persia was once one of the largest empires the world had ever seen? Did you know that, even though Persia has lost battles, it has never been conquered even once in over 3,000 years? Did you know that Iran has more than three times the population of Iraq, and 63% of that population is under 31 years old? Did you also know that, geographically speaking, Iran is four times larger than Iraq? Did you know that Iran's economy was twelve times the size of Iraq's, as of 2003? Did you also know that, although no one is sure of the total casualties during the Iran-Iraq war of 1979 to 1988, estimates range from 800,000 to 1 million dead, at least 2 million wounded, and more than 80,000 taken prisoner? That there were approximately 2.5 million who became refugees and whose cities were destroyed? That the financial cost is estimated at a minimum of $200 billion? And even though, according to some estimates, Iran lost about one million soldiers, it was still not defeated?

I don't get it...
What are you trying to say?
Why is any of what you said important?

Quoted: Quoted: For you aspiring warhawks, a few facts about Iran: Did you know that Persia is one of the oldest civilizations in the world? And that Persia was once one of the largest empires the world had ever seen? Did you know that, even though Persia has lost battles, it has never been conquered even once in over 3,000 years? Did you know that Iran has more than three times the population of Iraq, and 63% of that population is under 31 years old? Did you also know that, geographically speaking, Iran is four times larger than Iraq? Did you know that Iran's economy was twelve times the size of Iraq's, as of 2003? Did you also know that, although no one is sure of the total casualties during the Iran-Iraq war of 1979 to 1988, estimates range from 800,000 to 1 million dead, at least 2 million wounded, and more than 80,000 taken prisoner? That there were approximately 2.5 million who became refugees and whose cities were destroyed? That the financial cost is estimated at a minimum of $200 billion? And even though, according to some estimates, Iran lost about one million soldiers, it was still not defeated? I don't get it... What are you trying to say? Why is any of what you said important?

The Japanese WERE like that once!

Google is a wonderful thing!!!!

Actually, Alexander the Great Conquered Persia in 330 B.C.
The Ephthalites conquered Persia in 483 A.D.
Conquered by the Arabs in 637 A.D.
The Turks took over in 1050 A.D.
The Mongols take over in the early 13th Century.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I love how people always refer to the statement that Iran is just a spark away from a revolution.... when they have never actually visited the country or talked to an actual Iranian. How would you know??? I worked for the Anglo Iranian Oil Company… been there… done that… Redam be da-hanet! Andy Which most likely means you haven't talked to an Iranian inside Iran since the days of the shah....  which means that you haen't been there since 1979 most likely... which would mean you know nothing about how today's Iranian thinks.

Actually, having lived with and worked for them directly and indirectly for 5 years I'll bet I have a much better understanding of them than you…… I was still sailing into the Gulf till the mid 80's, just the company names changed, the Iranians are very pragmatic at times.

Andy

This has been an enlightening and sobering thread. Perhaps an option we have that hasn't been mentioned is an EMP weapon.  I know we have researched them heavily and I would figure we have some operational(or maybe I'm seated in the way out there machine). If we do have EMP weapons why not just turn off the power, no juice means no way to make nukes. Of course this all is dependant on whether such a system exists and how effective it is. Add it to the things that make you go hmmmm? file.

Quoted: Actually, having lived with and worked for them directly and indirectly for 5 years I'll bet I have a much better understanding of them than you…… I was still sailing into the Gulf till the mid 80's, just the company names changed, the Iranians are very pragmatic at times. Andy

I really really bet you don't. If you knew me personally... you would really feel stupid having made this comment.... but I feel no need to elaborate for you.

Quoted: This has been an enlightening and sobering thread. Perhaps an option we have that hasn't been mentioned is an EMP weapon.  I know we have researched them heavily and I would figure we have some operational(or maybe I'm seated in the way out there machine). If we do have EMP weapons why not just turn off the power, no juice means no way to make nukes. Of course this all is dependant on whether such a system exists and how effective it is. Add it to the things that make you go hmmmm? file.hr

Well I'm glad someone appreciates differing points of view....

As for EMP weapons.... its an interesting idea.... a centerfuge facility requires some serious juice.... but I think Iran could rig up enough generators, making for a mobile power supply, to run a small number of machines (say 100) to enrich uranium. After that, they just need a light bulb to see what they are doing to put the bomb together; although... they might need some computers to do computer simulations for their bomb designs... again... I think mobile generators could could suffice.

What do you think???  

Quoted: Quoted: I really really bet you don't. If you knew me personally... you would really feel stupid having made this comment.... but I feel no need to elaborate for you.

Your they expert sport! I'll let you get on now and save the world…

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I really really bet you don't. If you knew me personally... you would really feel stupid having made this comment.... but I feel no need to elaborate for you. Your they expert sport! I'll let you get on now and save the world…

Good then I can stop wasting my time with someone who doesn't think before he types. How can you possibly assume you know more about them then me when you know nothing about me?

From my limited knowledge of EMP's(think popular mechanic's), the EMP bomb was pretty devestating. It not only knocked out power but literally fried circuits and wiring, in effect it was massive surge overload. Hooking up generators would take even longer because you would have to use all new cables and equipment. Again this is all specualtion I'm just of the mentality there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Quoted: For you aspiring warhawks, a few facts about Iran: Did you know that Persia is one of the oldest civilizations in the world? And that Persia was once one of the largest empires the world had ever seen? Did you know that, even though Persia has lost battles, it has never been conquered even once in over 3,000 years? Did you know that Iran has more than three times the population of Iraq, and 63% of that population is under 31 years old? Did you also know that, geographically speaking, Iran is four times larger than Iraq? Did you know that Iran's economy was twelve times the size of Iraq's, as of 2003? Did you also know that, although no one is sure of the total casualties during the Iran-Iraq war of 1979 to 1988, estimates range from 800,000 to 1 million dead, at least 2 million wounded, and more than 80,000 taken prisoner? That there were approximately 2.5 million who became refugees and whose cities were destroyed? That the financial cost is estimated at a minimum of $200 billion? And even though, according to some estimates, Iran lost about one million soldiers, it was still not defeated?

Dija know I don't give a rats ass?

This coming from someone who doesn't want involved in ANY world affairs?  

Quoted: From my limited knowledge of EMP's(think popular mechanic's), the EMP bomb was pretty devestating. It not only knocked out power but literally fried circuits and wiring, in effect it was massive surge overload. Hooking up generators would take even longer because you would have to use all new cables and equipment. Again this is all specualtion I'm just of the mentality there is more than one way to skin a cat.

EMP is great against solid state electronics but most diesel and gas Gens could be made to run without virtually any solid state electronics.  A cheap 2000 lb GPS guided munition or hellfire off a UAV works much better at making sure it never runs again.  Running a one or bunch of Generators with Electronic Emission sensing aircraft flying in your airspace will make you standout like Illumination flare in the night.  Might as well post a sign, "Drop bomb here".

I don't know how sensitive those senors are... but if you are in a cave complex in the mountains.... or a bunkered facility under ground... how will these electronic emmisions be sensed through 10's of ft of earth or solid rock, reinforced additionally with concrete????

Quoted: For you aspiring warhawks, a few facts about Iran: Did you know that Persia is one of the oldest civilizations in the world? No shit? Unless they stop their aggressive behavior toward us, they might also have the distinct honor of being the first civilization turned to glass by nukes too. And that Persia was once one of the largest empires the world had ever seen? Key word here is WAS. Did you know that, even though Persia has lost battles, it has never been conquered even once in over 3,000 years? Who said anything about conquering anyone? We're simply talking about turning their nuke plant into dust. Besides, we haven't ever tried to conquer them, yet. They've never faced an enemy like the US, when it comes to full-scale all-out warfare. Did you know that Iran has more than three times the population of Iraq, and 63% of that population is under 31 years old?   Gee, perhaps that's because they are a shithole third world nation with a life expectancy of 35 years? Did you also know that, geographically speaking, Iran is four times larger than Iraq? Ummmm, what's this have to do with anything? Some well placed bombs could care less how large the country is. There's a difference between taking out a facility and taking over an entire nation. You just don't seem to get that. Did you know that Iran's economy was twelve times the size of Iraq's, as of 2003? And in 24 hours we could turn their economy to shit if we chose. Did you also know that, although no one is sure of the total casualties during the Iran-Iraq war of 1979 to 1988, estimates range from 800,000 to 1 million dead, at least 2 million wounded, and more than 80,000 taken prisoner? That there were approximately 2.5 million who became refugees and whose cities were destroyed? That the financial cost is estimated at a minimum of $200 billion? And even though, according to some estimates, Iran lost about one million soldiers, it was still not defeated?   Did you know that we aren't Iraq?

Jesus H. Christ. And some people wonder why a libertarian presidential candidate can't get 1/2 of 1 % of the vote?

5k Free Smart bombs to Isreal ? Looks like China's getting some smart bomb technology very soon !

Quoted: 5k Free Smart bombs to Isreal ? Looks like China's getting some smart bomb technology very soon !

They already got it, we gave it to them personally at their embassy in Yugoslavia.

Who cares about the facilities anyways? Let's hit the leaders who want to use the bombs.

It's the same argument we make about guns all the time. The criminal is what's important, the weapon is irrelevant. Well, the Iranian Mullahs who want to destroy Israel and the US are the important part. As long as they're still there, they'll do it eventually. We can drop all the bombs we want on all the nuclear weapons plants we want, at best it'll just delay them and piss them off more. That may be satisfying, but it won't solve anything. The only way to stop them permanently is to get the Mullahs.

I believe that the US understands this now, based on how we handled Iraq. The WMDs themselves are irrelevant, Saddam was the problem. You can send in all the inspectors you want and bomb things all day long, but as long as Saddam remains in power, you're just playing an endless game of whack-a-mole. If you want to end the problem of Iraqi WMDs permanently and efficiently, you have to get Saddam, or at least get him out of power. The failure to figure out what actually happened to the WMDs just underscores this.

Take that Sarin shell we found, for example. It was apparently manufactured in Iraq, but we never knew about them. Keep in mind that if it was manufactured in Iraq, nobody makes just one, with the huge cost of tooling up to make them. There have to be more of them, and lots of other things somewhere. We didn't find it during 10 years of inspections and occasional bombings, but we took care of the problem in 30 days by taking over Iraq.

So in summary, you can inspect, spy, and bomb all you want, but nothing will change as long as the Mullahs are still in charge.

Quoted: Who cares about the facilities anyways? Let's hit the leaders who want to use the bombs. It's the same argument we make about guns all the time. The criminal is what's important, the weapon is irrelevant. Well, the Iranian Mullahs who want to destroy Israel and the US are the important part. As long as they're still there, they'll do it eventually. We can drop all the bombs we want on all the nuclear weapons plants we want, at best it'll just delay them and piss them off more. That may be satisfying, but it won't solve anything. The only way to stop them permanently is to get the Mullahs. I believe that the US understands this now, based on how we handled Iraq. The WMDs themselves are irrelevant, Saddam was the problem. You can send in all the inspectors you want and bomb things all day long, but as long as Saddam remains in power, you're just playing an endless game of whack-a-mole. If you want to end the problem of Iraqi WMDs permanently and efficiently, you have to get Saddam, or at least get him out of power. The failure to figure out what actually happened to the WMDs just underscores this. Take that Sarin shell we found, for example. It was apparently manufactured in Iraq, but we never knew about them. Keep in mind that if it was manufactured in Iraq, nobody makes just one, with the huge cost of tooling up to make them. There have to be more of them, and lots of other things somewhere. We didn't find it during 10 years of inspections and occasional bombings, but we took care of the problem in 30 days by taking over Iraq. So in summary, you can inspect, spy, and bomb all you want, but nothing will change as long as the Mullahs are still in charge.

+1.... this is what I have been trying to get people to understand this whole thread. Once they have the feedstock and know how.... you can drop all the bombs in the world... and they will still end up making them.... won't change anything.... possibly delay things at best.

The sad part is though... even if you do change the regime... the next one might still want nukes too.... have to start from scratch all over again.

Quoted: Who cares about the facilities anyways? Let's hit the leaders who want to use the bombs. It's the same argument we make about guns all the time. The criminal is what's important, the weapon is irrelevant. Well, the Iranian Mullahs who want to destroy Israel and the US are the important part. As long as they're still there, they'll do it eventually. We can drop all the bombs we want on all the nuclear weapons plants we want, at best it'll just delay them and piss them off more. That may be satisfying, but it won't solve anything. The only way to stop them permanently is to get the Mullahs. I believe that the US understands this now, based on how we handled Iraq. The WMDs themselves are irrelevant, Saddam was the problem. You can send in all the inspectors you want and bomb things all day long, but as long as Saddam remains in power, you're just playing an endless game of whack-a-mole. If you want to end the problem of Iraqi WMDs permanently and efficiently, you have to get Saddam, or at least get him out of power. The failure to figure out what actually happened to the WMDs just underscores this. Take that Sarin shell we found, for example. It was apparently manufactured in Iraq, but we never knew about them. Keep in mind that if it was manufactured in Iraq, nobody makes just one, with the huge cost of tooling up to make them. There have to be more of them, and lots of other things somewhere. We didn't find it during 10 years of inspections and occasional bombings, but we took care of the problem in 30 days by taking over Iraq. So in summary, you can inspect, spy, and bomb all you want, but nothing will change as long as the Mullahs are still in charge.

+1

Let me guess he has a CNWD and is trying to not come out and say it.  Bet he's Iranian too.  You know what a Persian is,? an Iranian too embarassed or afraid to admit it.  Bet he's gonna tell us he has family there, then some kind of whine about how they don't like the mullahs, or how they can't get out.  Boo f'g hoo

Iran is not stupid.  WRONG Iran is stupid.  If they weren't they would have chucked the Mullahs a few years ago once they realized what road they were being led down.  They are flaunting the UN at a time when a lot of nations are challenging the UN's manhood.  Telling the UN to get stuffed.  We are going to build nukes whether or not you like it.  Iraq told the UN to stuff it for years and we stomped them finally, Sudan has been telling them to stuff it for years, and now Iran is not only telling them to stuff it, they're flaunting it.  Big mistake,  Iran is being run by Shias, do most Moslems particularly care for Shias?  not really.  How about the local Arabs?  they don't like Shias and they especially don't like Persians.  In other words if the UN get it's dander up, who is liable to stand up for them in the UN, not many.  What happens if after all the hooforah in the UN over not having weapons, somebody comes along and messes up the facilities that they denied having and now are flaunting. Will the UN be upset, not bloody likely, but even if they are Who Cares.? What are they going to do sanction Israel?  Sanction the US?  bfd.


Their Military is decrepit, they have few modern systems and a limited ability to maintain.  They don't fly enough hours and their AD C3 is marginal.  The religious oversight is worse that the Commie Political oversight on the Soviet Union military.  Nobody dares trust anybody, and who's really in charge, the "real" generals or the mullahs.  That's a recipe for military disaster.  Unless things have changed significantly since I was "privileged" to instruct Iranian military students and have Iranians in several college classes, they  have neither the integrity or the smarts to not try to cheat on everything and to learn at least some of the military skills needed to stay alive a little longer.

Maybe they did loose a million soldiers against Iraq.  Maybe two million.  What does that tell you, they have or at least had a million ignorant grunts willing to be sacrificed for some shia dream of virgins and immortality, and they still lost.  If you don't like the term LOST use DIDN'T WIN.  Against Iraq.

Funny thing about underground facilities, all you really got to do is bust the entrances and exits, cut off the water and food supplies, etc.  You don't have to break the bank vault, just tweak the door so it won't open.

63% of the population is under 31.  That's nice, how many of them are just "dying" to be martyrs?  And how many want to chuck the Mullahs?  Once the Mullah chuckers get close to a reasonable percentage of the popuaation then you get a revolution, or at least that's what the Persians I know say.  then again they ARE here.  Will it be a bloody revolution.  The do-gooders , peace-niks, liberals, are sure it will be.  Unfortunately nobody told the Mullahs, they would have no problems sending the whole population to Allah for virgins or judgement.  That's another reason why Iran is so dangerous, you have a ruling group that has no religious against killing the enemy or sending their own side to paradise, in many ways a war is a personal win-win for them even if they lose.