Cops raid wrong house - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Cops raid wrong house (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:25:33 PM EDT

[#1]

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Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?

Not if they failed to identify themselves as police officers, AND you killed all of them...if you left even one alive, he would testify under oath that they identified themselves as police officers, even if they had not, and you'd fry...so be sure to kill them all if you start shooting. Remember, the first JBT is very expensive, but all the rest are free...

.........so are you advocating the Killing of Police Officers here?

I don't know what he is saying, but the part about the officers lieing has happened enough to be a reasonable statement.

Look at Lubbock, TX. They had a man charged with murder and refused to budge one bit. Then the FBI stepped in.... turns out it was another cop who shot the cop, the accused never even touched a firearm. Had the FBI not gotten involved the man would most likely be on death row today.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:25:36 PM EDT

[#2]

I feel that there is NO EXCUSE for no-knock home invasions in 95% of the cases that they're utilized.

I mean, WHY NOT ARREST THE GUY WHEN HE'S GONE OUT TO PICK UP SOME GROCERIES, or to F* his girlfriend, or gone to the laundromat?

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:26:34 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
no knock warrants are just an invitation to disaster in general

people some times make mistakes, but come on, putting a frail old couple on their face?

being 54 makes you frail and old?

We only use no knock warrants when we have COROBORATED information that the suspects are armed. I could give a shit less if they are flushing their dope... that's not my problem.

I have been on SEVERAL raids where the suspects are in their mid 50's so that is not inconceivable.

I would venture to guess alot of the "wrong house raids" come as a result of the suspect not being home, or dealing out of a friends house etc.
I have also witnessed the incorect address being put on the warrant by the narcotics team. It was caught by us though PRIOR to ever leaving on the operation.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:26:58 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
TCSD1236, I've said it before time and again, I'f I can drop what I am doing at home, grab my jump bag, and either go directly to the scene or stop just long enough at the station to get the squad truck, and never in hundreds of responses go to the wrong door, despite many poorly or not marked, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A TEAM WHO HAS HAD PREP TIME TO GET IT WRONG. My response times average 6-7 minutes from dispatch to on scene, while this team had hours to assemple and prep at a minimum.

I guess expecting those paid to do a job to do it at least as well as the hillbilly volunteer fighter makes me a basher in your eyes, however.

And I will say it again: the manner and thoroughness in which YOUR area is marked is unique. You keep ignoring that.

True, but when there is time to prepare, you should be able to get it right in EVERY case. No matter where you are.

And for any agency to not push for better addressing is also negligent.... how much has your agency pushed for it or been willing to spend on it?

Oh, and its not how we are marked, that is still up to hoemowners, its just a logical numbering system. Most are based on some logical system if you atke the time to understand it. But actual markings here suck in many cases.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:29:03 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
OK stupid question time-------

If the drug dealer is so dangerous as to require a night time "tactical team" raid why in Gods name is bail only $28,000? All this drama and the dude bails for $2800??? wow...

"Smith said the man they were actually looking for was Jeremiah Taylor, 24, who was arrested and charged Friday night with possession of Ecstasy for resale. A separate warrant was taken for a raid of his home. Taylor was booked into the Montgomery County Jail with bail set at $28,000."

It required a "tactical team" because alot of cops like to dress up like a soldier and play Rambo. It amazes me to no end when I see video of a SWaT Team going after a suspect. They are bunched together behind someone with a ballistic shield, expecting the perp to conviniently stay in front of the shield. Anyone with any combat training would eat the whole squad for lunch.

You guys need some better tactics...

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:29:10 PM EDT

[#6]

Where in the original post does it say it was a "no knock warrant"?

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:32:58 PM EDT

[#7]

The city should be paying for damages, injuries, and emotional trama. And the officers involved to in rough handleing and misidentifing the house be fired.

If you cannot expect or trust for the police to be 100% sure during an operation like this then those involved do not belong on the force.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:34:09 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
OK stupid question time-------

If the drug dealer is so dangerous as to require a night time "tactical team" raid why in Gods name is bail only $28,000? All this drama and the dude bails for $2800??? wow...

Very easy; bail cannot be excessive. A 28K bail is pretty steep for most people and most charges. About the only time you'll see anything higher than that around here is a murder charge.

Damn!
I didn't realize the bail amounts were so lightweight. So what's the usual "show up to court" vs "I'm headin to Mexico" ratio? Do a lotta people skip?

Oh and a "+1" on having your address CLEARLY MARKED.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:35:47 PM EDT

[#9]

Why did they feel the 54 year old man was a threat? They new all along they were looking for a 24 year old. No excuses for putting the man down. Just poor judgement and training.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:36:34 PM EDT

[#10]

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Quoted:
The problem, tcsd1236, is that it's home invasion. Sure, cops can call it a "raid", but it's still home invasion.

Uh, no, it's not. But we will have to disagree.

Fair enough.

I should explain where I'm coming from. I've no criminal history beyond a couple speeding tickets a few years ago. If anyone kicks down the door and comes rushing into my house, I'm likely going for the gun. Do you understand why I'm scared of being the victim of a police "mistake"? I'd likely be killed in front of my wife and children for not having done anything wrong. So, essentially, for anyone to break into my house like that, it would have to be an invasion since I try to hard to obey the law. There'd be not excuse for police to do that.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:38:19 PM EDT

[#11]

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This apparently happens so often...

Less often than you have been lead to believe.

In is deceptive to lump all "wrong house" incidents into one catagory. There is a world of difference between actually going to an address other than listed on the warrant, as in this horrible case. Versus other "wrong house" raids when the cops went to the correct address, but the suspect wasnt home, only gets his mail there, just moved, was never there, ect. It's deceptive, at best, to lump them all into the same catagory, and creates the illusion that the cops regularly go to the wrong address.

I've never quite figured out why you seem to think that going to 1818 Main Street instead of 1819 Main Street (as listed in the warrant) is so much worse than kicking in the door at the address listed in the warrant only to find that it contains neither bad guys nor contraband. Misreading an address is ordinary human negligence. Swearing to probable cause when the suspect "only gets his mail there, just moved, was never there, ect." is a professional and possibly a moral failing - because if that's the case, the information is inadequate, stale, or unreliable.

"John Smith is a doper and he lives at this address" is not probable cause for a warrant; "John Smith is a doper and he lives at this address and there was dope there 2 weeks ago" is not probable cause for a warrant; "John Smith lives at this address, and this shithead doper I arrested last night says he bought dope from Smith at this address" is not probable cause for a warrant. If an officer has found a judge stupid or cynical to sign off on something like that, they are both guilty of significant wickedness. Locally, warrants are typically sought for significant amounts of dope, and usually within 24 to 48 hours of a controlled or undercover buy inside the premises. Unless somebody who is credible (or who, as in a controlled buy, gives independently corroborated information) has evidence of very recent possession of contraband in the premises, there is no excuse for even seeking a warrant.

A police officer who is misled by his investigation or by an informant about what is going in a house, with the result that he swears out a search warrant that leads to the police entering a house where no criminality is afoot, is incompetent.

"Well, gee, Father Murphy, the warrant says 1153 Oak Street, and that's this address. I guess maybe the beat officer would have known that it's the rectory at St. Swithin's and the dopers live on East Oak Street, but those are the breaks. It ain't my fault! Here, lemme tighten that tourniquet for you."

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:40:06 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
The city should be paying for damages, injuries, and emotional trama. And the officers involved to in rough handleing and misidentifing the house be fired.

If they city pays, I fully beliuve they should be able to, after they fire those responsible, seek a civil judgement against them for whatever they paid out. Otherwise, its the taxpayers taking the hit...make those responsible pay back the city/county/ whoever paid the judgement even if it takes em the next 20 years.

In cases like this, its the team leader. In cases of bad info on who lives there, it whoever verified the info was good.

Untill it really hits people in the wallet this won't change.

If you cannot expect or trust for the police to be 100% sure during an operation like this then those involved do not belong on the force.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:41:57 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

''What justification can you give to kick a 54-year-old man who's down on the ground,'' Meeks said about Elliott, who is a Vietnam War veteran. ''All he saw was men in masks with rifles. He was terrified. Then to get knocked down and stomped. They picked him up like a suitcase. The Police Department said they acted in normal procedure, but that's not normal.

I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?

Your dead, you would be gunned down by the remaing officers, like it or not.

This is why I feel fucked some times.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:44:36 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?

Not if they failed to identify themselves as police officers, AND you killed all of them...if you left even one alive, he would testify under oath that they identified themselves as police officers, even if they had not, and you'd fry...so be sure to kill them all if you start shooting. Remember, the first JBT is very expensive, but all the rest are free...

.........so are you advocating the Killing of Police Officers here?

So, are you advocating the beating of old people here?

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:50:51 PM EDT

[#15]

Since when is 54 "elderly"?

since the night a 23 year old stormtrooper put a machinegun in his face while a 26 year old and 33 year old tossed his "arm in a sling" ass around the room because them young "officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,''"...

how about we get some young tough guys and let them play a little soccer...using you as the ball.

i guarandamntee you will feel "elderly" when you pick yourself up off the floor.

...Elliott, who is a Vietnam War veteran.

way to go...a fine way to treat a veteran.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:50:56 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

So, are you advocating the beating of old people here?

What the Fuck are you talking about?

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:51:17 PM EDT

[#17]

I grew up in Clarksville, graduated in 81 from Northwest High School. Back then it was a great little town. Over the years, when I came home from the Navy and visited my mother, I watched it deteriorate into a $hithole of gigantic porportions. The Army consolidated their troops at Ft. Campbell quadrupling the population. All industry left town and all that is left is service connected stuff with minimum wage jobs. Drugs, gangwars etc are starting to get real bad.
All that aside, when my 70 year old mom heard about the wrong house incident she said: "Pleeeeeze have the cops break down my door. I'd own their !@#$ department before their get their sorry asses back to the station. F!@#$ JPT %#@!*@#!$ incompetent @#$@#% donuts suckers."

I miss the old Clarksville, where you could leave the front dor open all day.

Fritz

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:55:02 PM EDT

[#18]

Yes, this is rare here too. I think Denver PD has only killed a few people in the last couple of years by raiding the wrong house.

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:55:20 PM EDT

[#19]

28k seems pretty cheap to me.... I've seen small claims writs nearly that large and child support bonds much larger

Posted: 9/16/2004 2:56:48 PM EDT

[#20]

so far I have not seen any officers here defending what this team did. they screwed up, and will have to deal with the aftermath whatever that might be.....

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:00:17 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
so far I have not seen any officers here defending what this team did. they screwed up, and will have to deal with the aftermath whatever that might be.....

Like I said, I will bet $100 that nobody gets fired for it. The taxpayers will be the ones dealing with the aftermath.

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:01:48 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Why did they feel the 54 year old man was a threat? They new all along they were looking for a 24 year old. No excuses for putting the man down. Just poor judgement and training.

Yes. Not only was it a failure to identify the correct location but a blatant failure to go by the discription.

How many 54 year olds look 24?

Frail? Arm in a sling and the other just had a liver transplant. Yes, frail.

They flat out screwed the pooch on this and deserve the consequences coming to them.

ETA: And I say the same thing whenever GIs drop the ball so no, this isn't a bash.

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:04:12 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
TCSD1236, I've said it before time and again, I'f I can drop what I am doing at home, grab my jump bag, and either go directly to the scene or stop just long enough at the station to get the squad truck, and never in hundreds of responses go to the wrong door, despite many poorly or not marked, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A TEAM WHO HAS HAD PREP TIME TO GET IT WRONG. My response times average 6-7 minutes from dispatch to on scene, while this team had hours to assemple and prep at a minimum.

I guess expecting those paid to do a job to do it at least as well as this hillbilly volunteer fighter makes me a basher in your eyes, however.

TCSD1236 says there is, and it's that the perp didn't have the house properly numbered. Now who should we believe, you, or the police?

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:06:21 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
.........so are you advocating the Killing of Police Officers here?

I don't think he is.

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:12:13 PM EDT

[#25]

What I see here:

A - The Police made a mistake.

B - The Police have admitted that they made a mistake

C- Lot's and lot's of Hatred of Police on this board

D- Only one person seems to have a problem with another Member ADVOCATING MURDER OF LEO...........Not the NRA I belong to

Staff over looking this COC violation

carry on with the lynching boys

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:14:43 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?

Not if they failed to identify themselves as police officers, AND you killed all of them...if you left even one alive, he would testify under oath that they identified themselves as police officers, even if they had not, and you'd fry...so be sure to kill them all if you start shooting. Remember, the first JBT is very expensive, but all the rest are free...

.........so are you advocating the Killing of Police Officers here?

I am advocating the killing of any fucker that barges into my house unnannounced...there is no legal reason why police would be raiding my house, so I would have to treat any masked assailants that came into my home as criminals, and act accordingly. They are more than welcome to walk into my "funnel of death"...BUH BYE!!!

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:17:55 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
It required a "tactical team" because alot of cops like to dress up like a soldier and play Rambo. It amazes me to no end when I see video of a SWaT Team going after a suspect. They are bunched together behind someone with a ballistic shield, expecting the perp to conviniently stay in front of the shield. Anyone with any combat training would eat the whole squad for lunch.

You guys need some better tactics...

FRONT TOWARD ENEMY...heh heh...bring it!

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:18:52 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
And I will say it again: the manner and thoroughness in which YOUR area is marked is unique. You keep ignoring that.

Quoted: True, but when there is time to prepare, you should be able to get it right in EVERY case. No matter where you are.

And for any agency to not push for better addressing is also negligent.... how much has your agency pushed for it or been willing to spend on it?

Oh, and its not how we are marked, that is still up to hoemowners, its just a logical numbering system. Most are based on some logical system if you atke the time to understand it. But actual markings here suck in many cases.

Locally, the practice is to identify the premises to be searched like this:

The premises to be searched is the apartment identified as 123B Main Street, Our town, Our County, Florida. The premises is the northernmost half of a duplex structure, white in color with green trim, located at the said address. The lot on which the premises is situated is surrounded by a wooden privacy fence, and the numerals "12" appear to the left of the entrance to the premises. To reach the premises, begin at the Our County Courthouse and proceed west on Washington Street approximately 2.5 miles to the intersection of Washington and Main Streets. Proceed north on Main Street to the said premises. The premises to be searched is situated on the west side of Main Street between Washington and Jefferson Streets, and is the northernmost portion of the duplex which is the 5th structure on the west side of Main Street counting north from the intersection of Main and Washington.

The purpose is twofold: if any of the descriptions is unique and accurate, the description will withstand scrutiny, even if the other descriptions including the address are wrong. It's also impossible to end up going the wrong door unless you're really trying or really stupid.

Competent law enforcement isn't impossible. It's just harder than making excuses.

edited for code - only once, I hope. OK, twice.

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:21:07 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

It required a "tactical team" because alot of cops like to dress up like a soldier and play Rambo. It amazes me to no end when I see video of a SWaT Team going after a suspect. They are bunched together behind someone with a ballistic shield, expecting the perp to conviniently stay in front of the shield. Anyone with any combat training would eat the whole squad for lunch.

You guys need some better tactics...

Maybe they feel they have to overcompensate to prove they are as tough and brave as thier neighbors a couple of miles up 41A.

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:21:18 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
What I see here:

A - The Police made a mistake.

B - The Police have admitted that they made a mistake

C- Lot's and lot's of Hatred of Police on this board

D- Only one person seems to have a problem with another Member ADVOCATING MURDER OF LEO...........Not the NRA I belong to

Staff over looking this COC violation

carry on with the lynching boys

Lots of hatred of official incompetence and arrogance. The poster didn't advocate killing cops. He answered a question and did it pretty accuratley, explaining what happens if you open fire on unidentified masked intruders and find out later that they call themselves a "squad" or "team" rather than a "gang."

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:24:17 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Lots of hatred of official incompetence and arrogance. The poster didn't advocate killing cops. He answered a question and did it pretty accuratley, explaining what happens if you open fire on unidentified masked intruders and find out later that they call themselves a "squad" or "team" rather than a "gang."

Seems to me he was advocating the killing of armed intruders barging into his home with guns at the ready, for no good reason. What would the LEOs on teh board do if somebody busted into thier house in the middle of the night waving guns around, shouting POLICE?

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:26:56 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Then to get knocked down and stomped. They picked him up like a suitcase. The Police Department said they acted in normal procedure, but that's not normal.''

Uh, yes it IS normal. I wonder how many people realize this is SOP in a raid, to go on and put the smackdown on all occupants to gain control? The sheep are tuly ignorant.

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:28:46 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Lots of hatred of official incompetence and arrogance. The poster didn't advocate killing cops. He answered a question and did it pretty accuratley, explaining what happens if you open fire on unidentified masked intruders and find out later that they call themselves a "squad" or "team" rather than a "gang."

Seems to me he was advocating the killing of armed intruders barging into his home with guns at the ready, for no good reason. What would the LEOs on teh board do if somebody busted into thier house in the middle of the night waving guns around, shouting POLICE?

Not if they failed to identify themselves as police officers, AND you killed all of them...if you left even one alive, he would testify under oath that they identified themselves as police officers, even if they had not, and you'd fry...so be sure to kill them all if you start shooting. Remember, the first JBT is very expensive, but all the rest are free...

yeah right

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:29:26 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
And I will say it again: the manner and thoroughness in which YOUR area is marked is unique. You keep ignoring that.

Quoted: True, but when there is time to prepare, you should be able to get it right in EVERY case. No matter where you are.

And for any agency to not push for better addressing is also negligent.... how much has your agency pushed for it or been willing to spend on it?

Oh, and its not how we are marked, that is still up to hoemowners, its just a logical numbering system. Most are based on some logical system if you atke the time to understand it. But actual markings here suck in many cases.

Locally, the practice is to identify the premises to be searched like this:

The premises to be searched is the apartment identified as 123B Main Street, Our town, Our County, Florida. The premises is the northernmost half of a duplex structure, white in color with green trim, located at the said address. The lot on which the premises is situated is surrounded by a wooden privacy fence, and the numerals "12" appear to the left of the entrance to the premises. To reach the premises, begin at the Our County Courthouse and proceed west on Washington Street approximately 2.5 miles to the intersection of Washington and Main Streets. Proceed north on Main Street to the said premises. The premises to be searched is situated on the west side of Main Street between Washington and Jefferson Streets, and is the northernmost portion of the duplex which is the 5th structure on the west side of Main Street counting north from the intersection of Main and Washington.

The purpose is twofold: if any of the descriptions is unique and accurate, the description will withstand scrutiny, even if the other descriptions including the address are wrong. It's also impossible to end up going the wrong door unless you're really trying or really stupid.

Competent law enforcement isn't impossible. It's just harder than making excuses.

edited for code - only once, I hope

Refreshing, and apparently rare common sense. And thanks for my new sig line!

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:36:08 PM EDT

[#35]

Ooops. Is our face red.

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:38:24 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:According to Smith, the police tactical team received information that a drug dealer lived at 343B Old Trenton Road, but they ended up going to the house next door that only had the letter ''B'' on the outside — which turned out to be 341B.

Gee they could have went to 345 and backed up one house or went to 339 and went two houses down. What if find strange, is you have a whole gang of people and no one says wait a minute we're going to the wrong house.

Posted: 9/16/2004 3:49:26 PM EDT

[#37]

Actually I have at three points in my life delivered pizzas for pay, including in the city where this nonsense took place, it is not that hard to find an address, and if you are not absolutely sure about an address you don't walk up and start kicking doors, you get on a phone and call somebody who knows the area. they did have somebody familiar with the target home didn't they?

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:03:46 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Um.. no comment, lest I raise the ire of the board JBTs, who will then initiate a traffic stop, arrest me for 'obstruction' after Tasering me into a stupor, impound my car, 'find' contraband in their 'inventory search' and get sentenced to life in prison.

Edited to add: Oh, and shoot my dogs just because they can.

You got it wrong, they shoot dogs for fun, They stick broom handles up your ass because they can.

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:03:59 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Lots of hatred of official incompetence and arrogance. The poster didn't advocate killing cops. He answered a question and did it pretty accuratley, explaining what happens if you open fire on unidentified masked intruders and find out later that they call themselves a "squad" or "team" rather than a "gang."

Seems to me he was advocating the killing of armed intruders barging into his home with guns at the ready, for no good reason. What would the LEOs on teh board do if somebody busted into thier house in the middle of the night waving guns around, shouting POLICE?

Not if they failed to identify themselves as police officers, AND you killed all of them...if you left even one alive, he would testify under oath that they identified themselves as police officers, even if they had not, and you'd fry...so be sure to kill them all if you start shooting. Remember, the first JBT is very expensive, but all the rest are free...

yeah right

They could only give you & act out the death penalty once. Any other charges and convictions would be irrevelent.

Anyhoot, The question at hand this message was related to asked what kinda trouble someone would be in if they killed a cop/cops in the event of a wrong house raid.

I've done nothing wrong. But if some masked armed men kick in my door the place will become a shooting gallery. If they were cops, well that's tough, they paid a price for thier mistake. Wanna try and convict, go ahead. They illegally entered the wrong home, in masked and armed. Sheep would sit and pray they are real cops. Sheep end up on the dinner table.

There have been a few incidents over the last few years of home invaders posing as cops, wearing the SWAT shirts, Tac vests and all. One in TX not to long ago where the people in the home were murdered by these invaders.

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:13:15 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
I mean, WHY NOT ARREST THE GUY WHEN HE'S GONE OUT TO PICK UP SOME GROCERIES, or to F* his girlfriend, or gone to the laundromat?

At some point you have to go inside to collect the evidence.

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:16:10 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Quoted:

So, are you advocating the beating of old people here?

What the Fuck are you talking about?

The question whilst rhetorical, it's quite clear in reply to your question.

So, in light of your latest question, what the fuck is your answer?

EDITED TO ADD: In reference to:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?

Not if they failed to identify themselves as police officers, AND you killed all of them...if you left even one alive, he would testify under oath that they identified themselves as police officers, even if they had not, and you'd fry...so be sure to kill them all if you start shooting. Remember, the first JBT is very expensive, but all the rest are free...

And YOU SAID:

.........so are you advocating the Killing of Police Officers here?

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:16:20 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This apparently happens so often...

Less often than you have been lead to believe.

In is deceptive to lump all "wrong house" incidents into one catagory. There is a world of difference between actually going to an address other than listed on the warrant, as in this horrible case. Versus other "wrong house" raids when the cops went to the correct address, but the suspect wasnt home, only gets his mail there, just moved, was never there, ect. It's deceptive, at best, to lump them all into the same catagory, and creates the illusion that the cops regularly go to the wrong address.

I've never quite figured out why you seem to think that going to 1818 Main Street instead of 1819 Main Street (as listed in the warrant) is so much worse than kicking in the door at the address listed in the warrant only to find that it contains neither bad guys nor contraband.

One is a mistake by a cop, the other is incopetance by a judge. Both are wrong, but it's not fair to blaim the cop serving the warrant that the judge never should have approved. For all the screaming about get a warrant, you guys scream just as loud when the judge issues one.

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:16:59 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

They could only give you & act out the death penalty once. Any other charges and convictions would be irrevelent.

Anyhoot, The question at hand this message was related to asked what kinda trouble someone would be in if they killed a cop/cops in the event of a wrong house raid.

I've done nothing wrong. But if some masked armed men kick in my door the place will become a shooting gallery. If they were cops, well that's tough, they paid a price for thier mistake. Wanna try and convict, go ahead. They illegally entered the wrong home, in masked and armed. Sheep would sit and pray they are real cops. Sheep end up on the dinner table.

There have been a few incidents over the last few years of home invaders posing as cops, wearing the SWAT shirts, Tac vests and all. One in TX not to long ago where the people in the home were murdered by these invaders.

Synister1 GETS IT!!!

Better to be tried by twelve than carried to my grave by six...

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:21:32 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:

They could only give you & act out the death penalty once. Any other charges and convictions would be irrevelent.

Anyhoot, The question at hand this message was related to asked what kinda trouble someone would be in if they killed a cop/cops in the event of a wrong house raid.

I've done nothing wrong. But if some masked armed men kick in my door the place will become a shooting gallery. If they were cops, well that's tough, they paid a price for thier mistake. Wanna try and convict, go ahead. They illegally entered the wrong home, in masked and armed. Sheep would sit and pray they are real cops. Sheep end up on the dinner table.

There have been a few incidents over the last few years of home invaders posing as cops, wearing the SWAT shirts, Tac vests and all. One in TX not to long ago where the people in the home were murdered by these invaders.

Synister1 GETS IT!!!

Better to be tried by twelve than carried to my grave by six...

+1

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:24:17 PM EDT

[#45]

The big problem as I see it for us is that some of us do occasionally worry about home invasions, so we keep a firearm handy for just such an occasion.

For most of us here at ARFCOM, when someone comes roaring in, if they don't make it on the first try and we can get to our gun, a major battle just might ensue. Since there are usually LOTS more JBTs than Joe Sixpacks on the premises, guess who is almost certainly going downtown in a body bag? A JBT might too...but in truth the odds are really against it since they are all very heavily armed and armored up and they are READY whereas we are not either.

About ten years ago, a man got wasted in Malibu, CA by the local sheriff under the same circumstances when he did shoot back. IIRC, there might have been a jurisdiction issue too...my memory isn't what it once was...

The warrant said the guy had dope in the house. Apparently, he did not. From the stories coming from the cop PAOs, you'd have thought the guy was a real sleazeball and deserved to die. Maybe he was...I don't know but he was dead anyway, his family was trashed and his missus got very rich after it was all sorted out. The warrant turned out to be bogus because the lawdogs believed the wrong snitch. When the coppers took down his place, he grabbed his pistol and engaged the threat...and quickly died for his trouble. His shots had no effect...their's did. IIRC, his missus said they never said a word about being LEOs as they kicked down the doors.

I realize that cops need to be able to do quick, unannounced entries...and I realize the dangers that the cops face every time this shit happens...but this is just wrong.

BTW...Clarksville is a nice town and I really like the treatment my missus and son received from the local JBTs. All kidding aside...they were super to them during a very difficult episode in January 2000 while I was in Australia on a consulting job and unable to assist. Hope these guys weren't the ones who helped us.

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:24:24 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I've never quite figured out why you seem to think that going to 1818 Main Street instead of 1819 Main Street (as listed in the warrant) is so much worse than kicking in the door at the address listed in the warrant only to find that it contains neither bad guys nor contraband.

One is a mistake by a cop, the other is incopetance by a judge. Both are wrong, but it's not fair to blaim the cop serving the warrant that the judge never should have approved. For all the screaming about get a warrant, you guys scream just as loud when the judge issues one.

So, finish your thought. Who is the affiant? Who signs under oath saying "Your affiant has reason to believe that . . . . The reasons for believing are as follows . . . .?" It's a cop. Are you saying that when a policeman presents inadequate evidence, but claims under oath that it is probable cause, it is the judge's fault for giving him the benefit of the doubt, or, as the case may be, falling for the officer's deception or incompetence? You mean that when this happens, the judge errs because he is insufficiently suspicious of the police officer who signs the affidavit? I'll agree with you that no judge should sign a warrant with inadequate PC (duh), but neither should an officer present such a request - whether it's done out of pure incompetence or done deliberately in the expectation that "good faith" will cover his shortcomings. You seem to be saying that if the cop gets away with sloppiness or dishonesty, it's the judge's fault he wasn't caught!

The fact is that, at least in conservative communities, judges do assume that cops are competent and honest, and will issue a warrant on request. I've seen judges sign warrants without reading them, or while rolling their eyes after reading them. Neither excuses an ill-informed or bad faith request by the police.

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:31:14 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

So, are you advocating the beating of old people here?

What the Fuck are you talking about?

The question whilst rhetorical, it's quite clear in reply to your question.

So, in light of your latest question, what the fuck is your answer?

EDITED TO ADD: In reference to:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?

Not if they failed to identify themselves as police officers, AND you killed all of them...if you left even one alive, he would testify under oath that they identified themselves as police officers, even if they had not, and you'd fry...so be sure to kill them all if you start shooting. Remember, the first JBT is very expensive, but all the rest are free...

And YOU SAID:

.........so are you advocating the Killing of Police Officers here?

Please post the part where I advocated the beating of Old People, hell please post where ANYONE advocated the beating of old people........ That's what I was talking about when I asked you WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:35:38 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Please post the part where I advocated the beating of Old People, hell please post where ANYONE advocated the beating of old people........ That's what I was talking about when I asked you WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

The poster's point was that he advocated killing policemen to the same extent you advocated beating old people. I guess you figured out how it feels.

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:37:11 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

So, are you advocating the beating of old people here?

What the Fuck are you talking about?

The question whilst rhetorical, it's quite clear in reply to your question.

So, in light of your latest question, what the fuck is your answer?

EDITED TO ADD: In reference to:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?

Not if they failed to identify themselves as police officers, AND you killed all of them...if you left even one alive, he would testify under oath that they identified themselves as police officers, even if they had not, and you'd fry...so be sure to kill them all if you start shooting. Remember, the first JBT is very expensive, but all the rest are free...

And YOU SAID:

.........so are you advocating the Killing of Police Officers here?

Please post the part where I advocated the beating of Old People, hell please post where ANYONE advocated the beating of old people........ That's what I was talking about when I asked you WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

I never said you ADVOCATED beating old people, you ASKED someone if they advocated the killing of police officers (which was silly, the guy mentioned that the first cop you shoot is the be all, end all of your life, subsequent killings are a moot point, in for a penny, in for a pound) I simply asked you an equally silly question, which was "So, do you advocate the beating of old people here"?

Posted: 9/16/2004 4:37:59 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Please post the part where I advocated the beating of Old People, hell please post where ANYONE advocated the beating of old people........ That's what I was talking about when I asked you WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

The poster's point was that he advocated killing policemen to the same extent you advocated beating old people. I guess you figured out how it feels.

Give THIS man a cigar!!!!!!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Cops raid wrong house (Page 2 of 3)

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