Quoted: All I know, is almost every conflict in the history of mankind has had a religious under tone. Until that stops, I'm not playing.

Incorrect, almost every conflict in the history of mankind is about cultural clashes.  

People who say that "religion is the cause of all wars" is ingorant of history.

Do you think the Crusades would have happened if Jerasulem wasn't at the center of the Silk Trade Route?  Of course not.  The reason why the Europeans got really upset at the Muslims was because the Muslims was hindering the flow of goods from the far east to Europe.  Spices could be sold for over 500% of what they were worth in Europe.  

The same could be said for almost all wars.  It's usually economic factors that start wars, or the balances of power.  Find me the religious causes in WWI and WWII, which killed more people than any wars started because of "religion"

Quoted: You know what I find irritating, more than anything else about religion? People who say, "my religion is the only one." Not the only true one, the only one. Yeah, right. All those other people just get together for coffee, cookies, and an intellectual discussion on the works of Wittgenstein. No, there are hundreds of religions. You can think that yours is the only true one. That's just part of your dogma. You can think anything you want. But if you think that your religion is the only one in existence, you're a twit.

Obviously they all can't be right,  I agree with that much of this.   But, (there's always a but ) if there is one right religion (and I hate that word, I'm not religious, but I am devoutly Christain... though I digress) then the others aren't right.  

Basic logic here right.

So to say that, you have to be 100% certain none of them are 100% right.    How could anyone say that about anything he isn't a complete subject matter expert in?

I've believed in God since I was a child.   I didn't obey his tuggings on my heart untill a few years ago.   But I can tell you I talk with Him in prayer.  He listens and acts in my life.   Even when I only had faith, yet was in rebellion.  

I can't prove it to anyone.   You can't put God to the test.  

But isn't it amazing how many Christians will tell you how they talk to Him, he listens and acts?  And usually His answers are Yes, No, or Wait... but when he answers it turns out to be the very best thing for them.

Try reading the Case for Christ if you want to see another Agnostic perspective... that got turned by the facts that are out there into a Christian perspective.

But heres one fact that really clenches the argument for me.   Hundreds of people were put to death by the Romans and Jews for saying the saw the risen Christ.   They were offered to be let free if they just denied it, and admitted they made it all up.   Yet there is not one who has been recorded as doing so.  Everyone died.   Why would they die for a lie?  

EDIT TO ADD:  A lie that they knew was a lie!  I wouldn't would you?

Quoted:

WWAS?

The question of "religion" must always come down to a couple of central questions:

Is there a God?
If there is a God, what is His nature?

It is utterly impossible for any man, no matter how powerful his intellect, to answer either question by himself. When humanity can explain the boundaries of the universe and all phenomena within that universe, then perhaps they will be ready to begin commenting on those questions out of their own mind.

What I find utterly amazing is that people who live maybe 70 or 80 years who cannot even explain what goes on inside their own bodies (and we cannot, as medical science is more art than science...) can feel so confident to judge things that are so far beyond them as to dwarf their existence into nothingness.

So for people to look around and pronounce that there is no God, or that what God there is is either too weak or too disinterested to care about what we do or hold us to account for it seems to be the hieght of arrogance.

It is like having a chimp lecture Einstein on a unified field theory, and that analogy is being mighty generous to us and mighty insulting on God. (God is much greater than Einstein, you know...)

Despite all the intellectual arguements, a few facts remain.

Mankind is an UTTERLY DEPENDENT FORM OF LIFE. We need air to live, water to live, food to live. We cannot even make our own heart beat. We are born through no say of our own, live our lives dependent upon higher powers to keep us alive, and then usually we die through no say so of our own either. Yet somehow in between all of that we come up with the idea that somehow we are intelligent and enlightened and better than those of the past, and are genuinely free from any accountability outside of ourselves for our existence.

The very nature of our existence screams against our blind outlook. People wander around today thinking themselves masters of their own little universe, but they still are subject to storms, loss, theft, and ultimately death.

It reminds me of the village fool wearing a paper hat and proclaiming himself king. No one with any sense will listen to that.

When a man on this earth can explain to perfection the boundaries and nature of our universe and of our existence, and can master the forces we now see as more powerful than man, and when he can master even death itself....

THEN I will be willing to listen to what man has to say about eternal things.

This is, of course, impossible. Mankind by his very nature is a LIMITED BEING. So listening to tiny little beings who are nothing more than mere whisps in the cosmic scheme of things speak so boldly about how well they have mastered the questions of existence rings hollow.

What I know about the eternal was not something I just sat down and figured out. I only know what I know because it was revealed to me BY the Eternal One. Even so, I cannot even begin to explain His vastness.  (If I have 3 percent sight in a colony of blind men, then I see better than anyone else there. But I still do not see perfectly.)

Anyone who claims to have everything figured out is either an ignorant arrogant fool or a person who has never seriously considered any of these questions.

I do not know all the answers. I know Who is The Answer, and that is answer enough.

I think much of ORGANIZED religion is about $$$. I know my wifes church talks as much about cash flow and membership as Jesus.

I think George Carlin said it best " GOD is the Number 1 cause of Death " Sorry, just had to throw this one in when ever religion is discussed.

Quoted: Well, I see evidence everywhere I look.

Could you provide me with a specific example???

Quoted: Quoted: Well, I see evidence everywhere I look. Could you provide me with a specific example???

I think he uses it as away to explain the unexplainable. Like matter and space in general- "where does it come from? I dont know- so some mysical device must have put it there."  Which is making  a deduction without knowing any facts.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, I see evidence everywhere I look. Could you provide me with a specific example??? I think he uses it as away to explain the unexplainable. Like matter and space in general- "where does it come from? I dont know- so some mysical device must have put it there."  Which is making  a deduction without knowing any facts.

I'll do better than that

Ever heard of Irreducible Complexity? Its a scientific theory created by non-christian scientists.   These guys were studing micro organisms and found that the way they work can't be explained in eveloutionary steps...  

For instance, one microbe has a tail that propels it.  That tail has a molecular electric motor, and a molectular universal joint to bend the tail to produce both forward and rear thrust.   With out each componet of the motor the microbe would only have a non functional bump... which is a waste of energy and it would die off...  no eveloution to the functional mode.

This brough forth the fact that it couldn't have evolved...  so they said, logically, if it couldn't have evolved, where did it come from.   So they came up with the ID theory... Intellegent Design.  They believed something they didn't understand had to design this stuff!

What is hillarious is that there finds were instantly branded as HERESY!  Thats right, these 'non religous' scientist were branded "HERETICS" by the more 'established' non-religious scientist.

I think eveloution has become a foundation of new religion of sorts... but I digress.

ID says that there is a flaw with Darwins theory of evelotion...   Darwin can easily account for small changes in species... for instance there is a famine.. so all birds with short beaks who can't reach into deep crevaces to get seeds die... leaving the long beaked birds to live and breed... if this happens fairly often, you end up with an entire gene pool dominated by long beak genes... the problem is this NARROWS the gene pool it doesn't add variety!

Every where these guys looked they found the same thing...   for instance there is a complex method of decoding DNA and using the info to acutally build the protiens that make up your body... if any one componet is missing or miss built in the mechanism, your body don't make the parts the cell needs and dies...   this change doesn't create new stuff... it kills its self off.

Now its true that this opened the eyes of many, and they searched for truth... they read Darwins theory themselves... you know what is says...

I paraphrase, but the end of it basically says that if through scientific findings one can find that through natural selection, the variety of genes dimishes, his theory is no longer valid.   DARWIN WROTE THAT HIMSELF.

Some of those scientists came to realize that their had to be a "creator" and that he was way beyond what they could concieve...  some of them became Christians, well after publishing their findings.   They have been practically 'Excommunicated" from the scientific community!   Does this sound like science or religion!  

New King James - II Peter 2/1 .......false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who brought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2/4.......For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgement.......  while doing it your way - good luck.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, I see evidence everywhere I look. Could you provide me with a specific example??? I think he uses it as away to explain the unexplainable. Like matter and space in general- "where does it come from? I dont know- so some mysical device must have put it there."  Which is making  a deduction without knowing any facts. I'll do better than that Ever heard of Irreducible Complexity? Its a scientific theory created by non-christian scientists.   These guys were studing micro organisms and found that the way they work can't be explained in eveloutionary steps...   For instance, one microbe has a tail that propels it.  That tail has a molecular electric motor, and a molectular universal joint to bend the tail to produce both forward and rear thrust.   With out each componet of the motor the microbe would only have a non functional bump... which is a waste of energy and it would die off...  no eveloution to the functional mode. This brough forth the fact that it couldn't have evolved...  so they said, logically, if it couldn't have evolved, where did it come from.   So they came up with the ID theory... Intellegent Design.  They believed something they didn't understand had to design this stuff! What is hillarious is that there finds were instantly branded as HERESY!  Thats right, these 'non religous' scientist were branded "HERETICS" by the more 'established' non-religious scientist. I think eveloution has become a foundation of new religion of sorts... but I digress. ID says that there is a flaw with Darwins theory of evelotion...   Darwin can easily account for small changes in species... for instance there is a famine.. so all birds with short beaks who can't reach into deep crevaces to get seeds die... leaving the long beaked birds to live and breed... if this happens fairly often, you end up with an entire gene pool dominated by long beak genes... the problem is this NARROWS the gene pool it doesn't add variety! Every where these guys looked they found the same thing...   for instance there is a complex method of decoding DNA and using the info to acutally build the protiens that make up your body... if any one componet is missing or miss built in the mechanism, your body don't make the parts the cell needs and dies...   this change doesn't create new stuff... it kills its self off. Now its true that this opened the eyes of many, and they searched for truth... they read Darwins theory themselves... you know what is says... I paraphrase, but the end of it basically says that if through scientific findings one can find that through natural selection, the variety of genes dimishes, his theory is no longer valid.   DARWIN WROTE THAT HIMSELF. Some of those scientists came to realize that their had to be a "creator" and that he was way beyond what they could concieve...  some of them became Christians, well after publishing their findings.   They have been practically 'Excommunicated" from the scientific community!   Does this sound like science or religion!

Thats hardly a reason to start worshiping any God, also was thier theory ever proven as a fact?

Quoted: Thats hardly a reason to start worshiping any God, also was thier theory ever proven as a fact?

First of all, as I stated may posts prior, God won't be proved.  You can't put God to the test.   But there are logical reasons to believe.   I just gave you one.

The problem of Irreducible complexity, and the only logical answer: Intellegent Design shook evolution theorists... you shoud research this stuff yourself...   it really has parralles to dogmatics that wrapped up the church in Rome about the earth being round and the  sun  not revolving around us.

If the proponents of ID are shunned and excommunicated... how would one expect their theory to be legitimized, much less accepted (which is probalby more of what you mean by 'proven')

Prove the theory of Evolution....

Prove your parents loved you...

You really can't.   There may be evidence to support it, but it really can't be 'proved'  

Edit to add:  You can't explain to me how that motor that propels the microbe 'evolved'  Its useless if one of its many complex parts are missing...  so how did it get there?  

There is lots of this in evolution.    Evolution explains nicely why we've got snow shoe rabits here and jack rabits there, but it doesn't explain why they got eyes that work...  an eye without a retna is not something that will help you in any way...

Quoted: New King James - II Peter 2/1 .......false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who brought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2/4.......For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgement.......  while doing it your way - good luck.

That is a very beautifully written anti-escape clause. The bible didnt magically fall from heaven. It was written by men, men in power, they wrote these things as a control measure to ensure that members of the church were life long members- they didnt want thier members following some other religion

here is a hypothetical senerio: a man in Antarctica was discovered untouched by religion, or and other culture at all. He is ignorant to the rest of the world- including your religions and beliefs in God. Is he doomed to hell?

What kind of God is yours? I thought he loved all of his creatures? Why would he send me to hell if I am a good man- I dont lie, cheat, or steal. I actually am a poster child for morality. I am as good if not better a man than any of yours priests. Just one thing is different about me, I dont know if a god exists? So your god is going to doom me to hell just because I am not aware of that he may exist? I dont know about you- but that god sounds like an asshole and not a god who loves all of his creatures, he most certainly isnt fair. Or did a man write that passage....New King James - II Peter 2/1, actually it has been re-written several times. How can you be certain that it is correct and not simply something that a man has added to gods word- perverting it for their use. Oh and BTW the bible has been perverted several times over- simply look at the Dead Sea Scrolls for a comparison- they dont add up.

the idea that religion serves any god is a bold faced lie

religion was invented by humans to control humans through the blunting of critical thinking skills, it simply serves no other practical purpose


juts my 2 cents

Think of religion as a logical blackhole,  once you have it you can't get rid of it as it warps and twists all incoming information around a singular unbending "truth"

Quoted: Think of religion as a logical blackhole,  once you have it you can't get rid of it as it warps and twists all incoming information around a singular unbending "truth"

Not sure what you mean by religion... if you mean faith in God... I disagree...  

If you mean faith in an organization of men, then I'm inclined to agree.

Quoted: I think I read those same lines in a little red covered book and have to admit that Stalins Gulags and pograms as well as Pol Pots plastic bags were a bit more effective than the little red book. Tj

LOL, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I thought it was a crutch for the weak minded?

You go to church every Sunday but don't believe in God?  Man, you are more screwed up than John Kerry!

DNA killed the "theory" of evolution.

Quoted: Quoted: New King James - II Peter 2/1 .......false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who brought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2/4.......For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgement.......  while doing it your way - good luck. That is a very beautifully written anti-escape clause. The bible didnt magically fall from heaven. It was written by men, men in power, they wrote these things as a control measure to ensure that members of the church were life long members- they didnt want thier members following some other religion here is a hypothetical senerio: a man in Antarctica was discovered untouched by religion, or and other culture at all. He is ignorant to the rest of the world- including your religions and beliefs in God. Is he doomed to hell? What kind of God is yours? I thought he loved all of his creatures? Why would he send me to hell if I am a good man- I dont lie, cheat, or steal. I actually am a poster child for morality. I am as good if not better a man than any of yours priests. Just one thing is different about me, I dont know if a god exists? So your god is going to doom me to hell just because I am not aware of that he may exist? I dont know about you- but that god sounds like an asshole and not a god who loves all of his creatures, he most certainly isnt fair. Or did a man write that passage....New King James - II Peter 2/1, actually it has been re-written several times. How can you be certain that it is correct and not simply something that a man has added to gods word- perverting it for their use. Oh and BTW the bible has been perverted several times over- simply look at the Dead Sea Scrolls for a comparison- they dont add up.

I have stated in past posts how we can be sure that the scriptures we read today are the same as the ones that formed the foundation of the faith in the early Christian church. You should do some historical research sometime about how the Bible came to be. That means more than listening to critics, it means searching out the original greek and Hebrew manuscripts (which Strong's Concordance lets you do quite easily) and reading the writings of the early church fathers. If in so doing you see a different Jesus than the one preached in the Bible, you are just seeing things altogether.

The central question of man's existence is not whether or not he is a "good" person. Your goodness matched with God's is like comparing a paper boat and an aircraft carrier, and that's being mighty generous to you and mighty stingy to God.

No human being is in any position to look up at the God who made them and declare Him unjust and unfair.

Quoted: An Agnostic idealism, for clear heads not dazzled by the thought of a church or a holy book.

Dazzled?  You are assuming that everyone who follows a defined, structured, objective faith is under some sort of mind control and incapable of independent thought?  Please, give some of us a little more credit.

Please read and let me know what you think.

OK.

I do expect plenty of hate from people who dont agree, but please keep it civilized.

No hate from this corner.  Too often people try to paint those who have differing opinions as "hateful", as in that ubiquitous, yet meaningless term "homophobic."

Also If any of this makes sense to you, leave a reply or an IM.

Even if it doesn't make sense to me.  

LOL, when will religions ever catch up to me, never I hope.

And you think we're arrogant?

Am I the only one who can see there is no light in the darkness of religion?

If by religion you mean religious systems created and run by men, I'd tend to agree.  I am a Christian, and the difference is a real, vital relationship with Jesus of Nazareth, rather than a system of rituals and navel contemplation.

How many people died throughout the ages under the guise "my religion is better than yours?" or book interpretations or simply "my book says that your religion is wrong" Suprise!...Its all marketing folks!

This assumes that all belief systems are equal, and are equally wrong.  Consider for a moment, if you can, that there may be absolute, objective spirtitual Truth out there.  Wouldn't that be worth seeking?

Of course, if you refuse to consider such a thing this discussion is moot.

When will man realize that they cannot fight what they do not know?

This assumes that we cannot know anything.  Sounds like a rather rather hopeless and pointless philosophy to me.

Man fears the unknown so he puts up a set of rules(even if they are wrong) a set of rules so that they have aim in life. Most people I know are scared, scared of living, scared of death, it doesnt matter, they are simply scared- and religion or a belief in a God is a tempting comfort - an explaination for all, how to live- and how to die.

You are correct that man-made rules are fruitless.

Within the reality of Christianity (see below) there is release from fear.  Granted, most do not walk it out completely, but it is there.

You don’t know what is at the end.

Ah, the difference is that after dying and being buried, Jesus came back and fellowshipped with his disciples and hundreds of other people.  He showed us what awaits and that death is a door we step through.  He demonstrated this as an assurance to those who would believe in Him.

So making up a cryptic story, or following someone else’s crafted religion isn’t going to help you, its only going to lead you down their road of false hopes for their bidding- hopes that you are doing right by God, and in that is where death and hatred lies- in Gods of fancy.

I did not make up my faith, and actually only came to it after a critical analysis.

There is no God that you should worship, until proven otherwise; and not by hear-say, but cold hard evidence is proven to exist, nothing should rely on faith except for a mans foolish hope.

But would you honestly consider evidence presented to you?  Could you bear the possibility that you were wrong?  If you are honestly seeking and your mind is open, try "More Than A Carpenter" and "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell.  Examine the evidence and then make up your mind.

I would rather die a man free of any God than trick myself into believing anything just so I can feel good and cozy on my death bed, I respect myself more than that. Some say that "no man dies godless" because they all pray to a god on their death bed, and that may be true, however have you ever given the thought that maybe that the last true test of ones self is not giving in to the temptation of submission to something(God), but maybe you pass the test if you die with your integrity of not bowing before a Lord,

Rebellion.

...not giving in to the temptation of a comfortable God and heaven.

My God comforts, but He is not necessarily "comfortable."  He is righteous and holy, and following Him is not always the easy path.  

Maybe religious beliefs are the lure, and resisting the lure to the end will open yourself to the mutual respect of____....I cant speculate on "what", that is part of the test.

Maybe it's because of my early morning caffeine deficit, but I read this a couple times and it doesn't make much sense.

Good luck in your search, if you are indeed searching.

Quoted: That is a very beautifully written anti-escape clause. The bible didnt magically fall from heaven. It was written by men, men in power,

Wrong again.  The writers were, for the most part, powerless in their society.  Get your facts straight, please.

...they wrote these things as a control measure to ensure that members of the church were life long members- they didnt want thier members following some other religion

That is one possible belief.  The other is that God Supernaturally, Superintended their efforts to produce a prefect record of His Word.

The second one is my belief.  I can't "prove" it.  It is a matter of faith.  Same as your belief.

here is a hypothetical senerio: a man in Antarctica was discovered untouched by religion, or and other culture at all. He is ignorant to the rest of the world- including your religions and beliefs in God. Is he doomed to hell?

Here is the big problem.

You don't need to be worried about that fellow.

Because you haven't been "in Antarctica was discovered untouched by religion".  You have all the advantages of being in a society where the Truth of God's love for you and His supplying of your salvation through Jesus Christ is common knowledge.

Quit wasting you time worrying about Anartica-Man, and worry about gaspain.

Because gaspain does know about Jesus.  And you will be held responsible for what you do with Him.

What kind of God is yours?

He is a Wonderful Savior that died in my place.  He was, and is, sinless and without spot or blemish, yet He died a horrible death to pay for my (and your) sins.

What a Wonderful Lord!  I praise His Holy Name.

I can hardly wait to see Him face to face.

Quoted: here is a hypothetical senerio: a man in Antarctica was discovered untouched by religion, or and other culture at all. He is ignorant to the rest of the world- including your religions and beliefs in God. Is he doomed to hell? Actually I ask this one to clergy alot myself except I add he is good at heart etc.   I find an honest answer of "I don't know." or "Who am I to say what God can or won't do." to be refreshing. On the otherhand, the "He'll burn for sure." I find a major turnoff for I have yet to meet the man who has a direct pipeline to God and to my limited knowledge hasn't been one for over 2,000 years.  We can talk about what the scriptures say and most likely but absolute certainty is a tad too vain for my taste. Tj BTW, nice logic Painless and good try.

Thanks, TJ.

And FYI, we are in agreement (again).

My honest answer to the question is:  I don't know.  But I serve a wonderfully fair and generous Savior.  I suspect He will be gracious with those that "never heard".

Quoted: Quoted: No, I am not an Atheist. I believe that there may or may not be a god, I choose neither until proven otherwise. I reread your post, and yes, you are an athiest. An agnostic is someone who either says "I don't know if God exists", or someone who says "I believe in God, but I don't think it is possible for man to know him." You basically have the Marxist view of religion, that it is "the opiate of the masses". This is a distinctly athiestic point of view.

umm no he's the classic definition of an agnostic

No gods, no masters. Religion is for the subversion of the masses.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No, I am not an Atheist. I believe that there may or may not be a god, I choose neither until proven otherwise. I reread your post, and yes, you are an athiest. An agnostic is someone who either says "I don't know if God exists", or someone who says "I believe in God, but I don't think it is possible for man to know him." You basically have the Marxist view of religion, that it is "the opiate of the masses". This is a distinctly athiestic point of view. look, I dont deny the existence of God or gods. I am skeptical about the existence of God. I am not an athiest. I am scientific and require a proof of existance and a proof of non-existance. An Athiest is someone who denies the existence of God. For further understanding dictionary.com You are anti-religion, anti-faith, and say that you require scientific proof to God's existance, therefore you think that there is no God. To say otherwise would be to contridict yourself. There is no need to try to fool yourself or others. Quoting the dictionary is a very very weak argument.

lol  can you read?

He's saying he's in the undecided category.  How hard is it to understand?

Quoted: My honest answer to the question is:  I don't know.  But I serve a wonderfully fair and generous Savior.  I suspect He will be gracious with those that "never heard".

Op, what about people like myself, whom have 'never heard'?

Quoted: Quoted: All I know, is almost every conflict in the history of mankind has had a religious under tone. Until that stops, I'm not playing. Incorrect, almost every conflict in the history of mankind is about cultural clashes.   People who say that "religion is the cause of all wars" is ingorant of history. Do you think the Crusades would have happened if Jerasulem wasn't at the center of the Silk Trade Route?  Of course not.  The reason why the Europeans got really upset at the Muslims was because the Muslims was hindering the flow of goods from the far east to Europe.  Spices could be sold for over 500% of what they were worth in Europe.

+1 and the same is true today.

The "War with Islam" some on this board love to talk about is more a war with a culture with tribal values.  It wouldn't matter if they were Christian or Hindu, people will always find a way to use religion to justify a cultural hatred.  

Quoted: DNA killed the "theory" of evolution.

hahahahhaah

www.talkorigins.org/

hahahahahahahhahahha

*wipes a tear*

good one man

Quoted: No gods, no masters. Religion is for the subversion of the masses.

Thank you Karl Marx....

Quoted: Quoted: My honest answer to the question is:  I don't know.  But I serve a wonderfully fair and generous Savior.  I suspect He will be gracious with those that "never heard". Op, what about people like myself, whom have 'never heard'?

If you have read this thread, you have heard. Thy blood is on thy own head...

So to speak.

Quoted: I am an agnostic, but I am very PRO religion. I think religion gives people something to believe in and people need something to believe in. Religion brings out the best in people, for I have seen it. Even if there isnt a god, which i highly suspect is the truth, religion is very useful. It gives people a morality compass. It gives people hope. Hell I go to church every sunday because it reassures me that mankind has more to it than savages killing innocent children. God Bless Religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said, ...wasting much more explanation is not required.  Good will and the Golden Rule.....plenty of compass there...

Quoted: Quoted: My honest answer to the question is:  I don't know.  But I serve a wonderfully fair and generous Savior.  I suspect He will be gracious with those that "never heard". Op, what about people like myself, whom have 'never heard'?

hielo, my friend, you always ask the best questions.

I know, that you know, what you mean by "never heard".

But while you have "never believed", you have surely "heard".

For one thing, I've personally told you many times in these threads.  If you choose not to believe, that is your decision.

But you know the following (once again, for my conscience):

1.  All men are sinners and are deserving of spiritual death.

2.  We cannot pay the penality for our sins.  We are unable.

3.  Jesus died in our place and offers us salvation, great and free.

4.  Eternal life is ours, as a gift, if we accept Jesus as our Savior, confess our sins, and place all our faith in Him.

There are a lot of smaller issues, but those are the big ones.

Quoted: www.violently-happy.net/musings/pix/revackbar.jpg

I guess we can all agree on Ackbar.

Quoted: Funny stuff, "I won't believe in God until he reviels himself to me." Hilarious ultimate statement of self importance that of the billions on this planet you should be the one God reviels himself to.  Sorry you aren't that special and just like you shouldn't have to prove who you are neither should God.

 But is that concept not what Christianity espouses?  To have a personal relationship with Jesus?  Would that not also indicate a similar level of self importance.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My honest answer to the question is:  I don't know.  But I serve a wonderfully fair and generous Savior.  I suspect He will be gracious with those that "never heard". Op, what about people like myself, whom have 'never heard'? hielo, my friend, you always ask the best questions. I know, that you know, what you mean by "never heard". But while you have "never believed", you have surely "heard". For one thing, I've personally told you many times in these threads.  If you choose not to believe, that is your decision. But you know the following (once again, for my conscience): 1.  All men are sinners and are deserving of spiritual death. 2.  We cannot pay the penality for our sins.  We are unable. 3.  Jesus died in our place and offers us salvation, great and free. 4.  Eternal life is ours, as a gift, if we accept Jesus as our Savior, confess our sins, and place all our faith in Him. There are a lot of smaller issues, but those are the big ones.

Sorry OP, but that doesn't clear it up for me.  You have 'heard', something has spoken to you and you have decided that you have 'heard'.  You know of my own personal belief structure, and to me I have 'heard' that.  I have never 'heard' the thing that has moved you to where you are.  Does that make my position any clearer?

Quoted: Quoted: Funny stuff, "I won't believe in God until he reviels himself to me." Hilarious ultimate statement of self importance that of the billions on this planet you should be the one God reviels himself to.  Sorry you aren't that special and just like you shouldn't have to prove who you are neither should God.    But is that concept not what Christianity espouses?  To have a personal relationship with Jesus?  Would that not also indicate a similar level of self importance.

You have to humble yourself to have a personal relationship with Jesus,  "The least amoung you shall be the greatest"...   The first shall be last, the last first....   read the gospels its puts it forward very clearly.

So no, Christianity does not espouse that.   It repeats over and over that we are not worthy, but God loves us, even the non-believer.   We are saved by our faith and God's Grace (grace is un warrented mercy).   No faith, no salvation.   Know faith, Know salvation.  

Its not being better or earning anything so that a believer can be loved more...

Quoted: Quoted: DNA killed the "theory" of evolution. hahahahhaah www.talkorigins.org/ hahahahahahahhahahha *wipes a tear* good one man

FYI Talkorigins seems to me to be slanted pro-evolution from reading their FAQ.   If you are wise you'll look indepth at both sides and find the truth...  

Here is a list of stuff swayed my way...
www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/TeachingResources.htm#Evolution%20Controversy  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My honest answer to the question is:  I don't know.  But I serve a wonderfully fair and generous Savior.  I suspect He will be gracious with those that "never heard". Op, what about people like myself, whom have 'never heard'? hielo, my friend, you always ask the best questions. I know, that you know, what you mean by "never heard". But while you have "never believed", you have surely "heard". For one thing, I've personally told you many times in these threads.  If you choose not to believe, that is your decision. But you know the following (once again, for my conscience): 1.  All men are sinners and are deserving of spiritual death. 2.  We cannot pay the penality for our sins.  We are unable. 3.  Jesus died in our place and offers us salvation, great and free. 4.  Eternal life is ours, as a gift, if we accept Jesus as our Savior, confess our sins, and place all our faith in Him. There are a lot of smaller issues, but those are the big ones. Sorry OP, but that doesn't clear it up for me.  You have 'heard', something has spoken to you and you have decided that you have 'heard'.  You know of my own personal belief structure, and to me I have 'heard' that.  I have never 'heard' the thing that has moved you to where you are.  Does that make my position any clearer?

As always, you ask hard questions.

You are entirely correct.  The Gospel is freely given to all men.  But some do not "hear".  Often when the Bible says "hear", it means (in the original Greek) "hears with an intention of doing something as a result".

That is your position, as I understand it.  

But Jesus spoke of those like you.

Mark 4:12   That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Jesus says they will hear, but not understand.

He later stated why they do not "hear".

Matthew 13:15   For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

I hesitate to sound critical of you, my friend, but maybe it is that your  "heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed".

Open your heart, open your ears, and open your eyes.  Jesus is calling you.  He loves you and wants to teach you of His great love, and save you.

I am, as always, praying for you.

Most wars are not fought for religion. They are fought because the Have-Nots want what the Haves have. Religion is simply the excuse for the leadership.

Look at Islam, for Pete's sake!

Religion has NEVER killed anyone.

Guns have never killed anyone.

UNTIL you get this FIRST GRADE logic straight in your mind, yer nothin but a pathetic sheeple.

I know you have this logic straight in your mind - you just like using this "religion killed millions" tripe to try to excuse yourself from what you KNOW is the truth.

I am neither a prophet or a seer - your self-deception is as old as time. Something a FIRST GRADER would recognize.

Quoted: Quoted: My honest answer to the question is:  I don't know.  But I serve a wonderfully fair and generous Savior.  I suspect He will be gracious with those that "never heard". Op, what about people like myself, whom have 'never heard'?

I don't think that anyone has ever "heard".  They have heard words, certainly.  "God is love", "Jesus died for you", "Jesus loves the little childred", etc.  We can say as many words as we want, and it won't get us any closer to Him.  We have to take that step outselves.  I do not think anyone alive today truly knows God.  They have little glimpses, little pieces, a few ideas, but no one has even close to the whole picture.  We might as well learn all there is to know about the entire universe.  No one can do that.  If we do not truly know him, and ESPECIALLY if whatever church you go to teaches the wrong god, then how can He hold us responsible if we reject Him?  We are rejecting our mental image of God, not God Himself.

Religion causes more problems than it solves.  If people actually followed the morality set out by religion, it would be great... but no one does.  People kill each other over religion, and that's the main problem with it.  All you have to do is look at the world today, all the fighting and unrest is largely over religious differences.  This is the way it has always been.  How many billions of people have died in wars over religion?  

Although, if there was no religion, people would probably find something else to fight over.

Quoted: Religion causes more problems than it solves.  .

Religion DOES NOT "cause" problems. Any more than guns do.

When will you people get it????

PEOPLE are the problem. The kind of PEOPLE who blame guns and religion for the evils of  the human heart.

Although, if there was no religion, people would probably find something else to fight over.

Learn it, know it, live it.

Quoted: here is a hypothetical senerio: a man in Antarctica was discovered untouched by religion, or and other culture at all. He is ignorant to the rest of the world- including your religions and beliefs in God. Is he doomed to hell? Actually I ask this one to clergy alot myself except I add he is good at heart etc.   I find an honest answer of "I don't know." or "Who am I to say what God can or won't do." to be refreshing. On the otherhand, the "He'll burn for sure." I find a major turnoff for I have yet to meet the man who has a direct pipeline to God and to my limited knowledge hasn't been one for over 2,000 years.  We can talk about what the scriptures say and most likely but absolute certainty is a tad too vain for my taste. Tj BTW, nice logic Painless and good try.

I asked a couple guys about this at a church I started going to.  I'll hit on one theory they told me.  Remember that thousands of years ago, there was no Bible.  There was nothing to tell us to worship God.  Rather it was meant to be "self evident" (where have we seen that before ?)  That is, look at the earth, at matter.  How can matter come from non-matter, as in the Big bang theory?  What are we composed of?  Atoms? Protons, Neutrons, Quarks?  We are made up of energy- where does that energy come from?  It is self evident that God exists.  People with knowledge of Him are held to higher standards than those who don't.