Israel spies on the US incessantly.  If you see a JCC in a large city, the smart man would put his money on there being at least one person in the employee of the Israeli government working there.  There are also consulates in several cities, and their people will and do approach anyone who has any ties whatsoever to Israel or Judaism in an attempt to recruit them.  They are successful more often than not because of the pro-Israel feeling in the US and the strong Jewish sense of community.

This is in no way a good thing, because the only places Israeli interests tend to agree with US interests is in the Middle East and sometimes Europe.  They will sell any military hardware or information they think they can get away with selling to anyone who doesn't pose a direct threat to them, be that North Korea, China, or any third world dump in Southern Africa or South America.

The Neutral Observer says this with no intended malice towards the Israeli people, but as a patrioitic American.  Remember where you are from and don't trust the Israeli government to do anything other than act in their own interest.  They are purely out for themselves in strategic matters.

Quoted: Israel spies on the US incessantly.  If you see a JCC in a large city, the smart man would put his money on there being at least one person in the employee of the Israeli government working there.  There are also consulates in several cities, and their people will and do approach anyone who has any ties whatsoever to Israel or Judaism in an attempt to recruit them.  They are successful more often than not because of the pro-Israel feeling in the US and the strong Jewish sense of community. This is in no way a good thing, because the only places Israeli interests tend to agree with US interests is in the Middle East and sometimes Europe.  They will sell any military hardware or information they think they can get away with selling to anyone who doesn't pose a direct threat to them, be that North Korea, China, or any third world dump in Southern Africa or South America. The Neutral Observer says this with no intended malice towards the Israeli people, but as a patrioitic American.  Remember where you are from and don't trust the Israeli government to do anything other than act in their own interest.  They are purely out for themselves in strategic matters.

Methinks the neutral observer is not as neutral as he may think.  

"They will sell any military hardware or information they think they can get away with selling to anyone who doesn't pose a direct threat to them, be that North Korea, China, or any third world dump in Southern Africa or South America." - bullshit - they go through US for any such sales - we must approve them all - tis a condition of our support.

I've said this before - but we give Egypt more foreign aid and direct military support than we have ever given Israel.  Egypt is one of the main supporters of the intefidah.  Just who should be questioning whose friendship?

shamayim -

First lemme say its GOOD to hear from you. I posted as thread a while back to ask where you went. Hadn't seen you in a LOOOONG while.

Then lemme say I'll reply to your post later. Lots to do, lots to do....

Countries do not have friends, they have "mutual interests."
Hopefully, we're spying on them.

Quoted: Quoted: Nothing to worry about here… It's been reported here that he was passing US information about IRAN back to Israel…… "FBI probes Israeli spy at Pentagon claim 5.00PM, Sat Aug 28 2004 The FBI is investigating a Pentagon analyst suspected of being an Israeli spy, US government sources said. The analyst is suspected of passing secret documents about Iran to the Jewish state. The officials said the analyst was connected to Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's office and is suspected of passing the documents to Israel via the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the powerful pro-Israel lobby in Washington." This could be a good thing if Israel is looking for strategic data… say for a strike on Irans nuclear facilities? ANdy NO. Its a bad thing.  Israel has been influencing the US to do their fighting.  Brilliant on their end.  No Israeli blood spilled in Iraq, the guy who paid suicide bombers is gone and they get free oil.  Absolutely Brilliant!  Their next target is Iran. Has anyone here ever wondered why IRAQ was at the top of the list instead of NORTH KOREA?  Lets not forget that North Korea continually threatenes to rain down missles on New York.  They already have the missles to attack Japan and South Korea.  And they are boasting that they have a nuke.  YET THEY WERE NOT HIGH ENOUGH ON THE LIST.  ????? WTF!!!!  Thats because they were NO threat to Israel.   Israel has been running US policy for a while.  Traditional Republicans, like myself, are even staying clear of the NEOCONS.

Ok, new guy...

This has only been up for discussion since the war sterted...

North Korea is a secular communist dictatorship, that - right now, anyway - doesn't pose a threat we can't  contain with a naval blockade & missile defense... They are, quite frankly, a threat better left 'contained' for now... Further, North Korea actually has a functional military, and the 'situation' over there is not conductive to an invasion. Look at a map of the 2 Koreas, measure the distance from the DMZ to Seoul, and look up the range of 155mm artillery. Get the picture?

IRAQ, on the other hand, is part of a grand strategy to solve the 'terror problem' by re-shaping the political landscape of the middle east. They were picked because (A) Saddam is the biggest 'bad-apple' of the dictators in the region (not in terms of terror support, but in terms of being an absolute monster), (B) their military was degraded by 10yrs of sanctions, and (C) we allready had the political/legal justification for war due to his failure to abide by the 1991 armistice.

Logically, IRAQ would get hit first, with the objective of destabilizing a long list of pro-terror regimes (Syria, IRAN, and so on...).

Further, ISRAEL is - above all else - as good of an ally as we're gonna find. The only country more on our side is well, Britain - which you'd expect, blood is thicker than water, even 228-some years removed - and the Izzys one signature strength is spying.  We spy on them, they spy on us, and it's quite easy to connect that we might 'let' them have some information here & there, and vice versa...

Think about it, what western-ish country has the most experience spying on Arabs?

Quoted: Methinks the neutral observer is not as neutral as he may think.   "They will sell any military hardware or information they think they can get away with selling to anyone who doesn't pose a direct threat to them, be that North Korea, China, or any third world dump in Southern Africa or South America." - bullshit - they go through US for any such sales - we must approve them all - tis a condition of our support. I've said this before - but we give Egypt more foreign aid and direct military support than we have ever given Israel.  Egypt is one of the main supporters of the intefidah.  Just who should be questioning whose friendship?

The Neutral Observer is pro-Israel as they come, but The Neutral Observer is an American.  Now if you ask about The Neutral Observer's opinion of arms sales to Egypt, then you will find He agrees it's a mistake.

Ahem.  This is just the stuff they got caught doing.  They will and do sell AMERICA'S military secrets and hardware to everyone they can.

1998:

www.fas.org/news/china/1998/980528-prc2.htm

1999:

www.cnn.com/US/9911/11/us.israel.china/

2000:

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/chinasales.html

2002:

216.26.163.62/2002/ea_china_12_09.html

2003:

www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/1948/documentid/1971/history/3,2360,1947,1948,1971

www.nti.org/db/china/imisr.htm

www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2003/01/04/189683

2004:

www.russiajournal.com/news/cnews-article.shtml?nd=44212

www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1079844508820

Question the validity of some of the sources if you wish, but at least two of them are straight from the mouths of the Israelis.  The Neutral Observer can post at least 20 more different instances of this type of thing if you require it.

Quoted: Quoted: Methinks the neutral observer is not as neutral as he may think.   "They will sell any military hardware or information they think they can get away with selling to anyone who doesn't pose a direct threat to them, be that North Korea, China, or any third world dump in Southern Africa or South America." - bullshit - they go through US for any such sales - we must approve them all - tis a condition of our support. I've said this before - but we give Egypt more foreign aid and direct military support than we have ever given Israel.  Egypt is one of the main supporters of the intefidah.  Just who should be questioning whose friendship? The Neutral Observer is pro-Israel as they come, but The Neutral Observer is an American.  Now if you ask about The Neutral Observer's opinion of arms sales to Egypt, then you will find He agrees it's a mistake. Ahem.  This is just the stuff they got caught doing.  They will and do sell AMERICA'S military secrets and hardware to everyone they can. 1998: www.fas.org/news/china/1998/980528-prc2.htm 1999: www.cnn.com/US/9911/11/us.israel.china/ 2000: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/chinasales.html 2002: 216.26.163.62/2002/ea_china_12_09.html 2003: www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/1948/documentid/1971/history/3,2360,1947,1948,1971 www.nti.org/db/china/imisr.htm www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2003/01/04/189683 2004: www.russiajournal.com/news/cnews-article.shtml?nd=44212 www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1079844508820 Question the validity of some of the sources if you wish, but at least two of them are straight from the mouths of the Israelis.  The Neutral Observer can post at least 20 more different instances of this type of thing if you require it.

I doubt any of those sales happen without a nod - however "unofficial" - from us.  Still, if it does happen it just goes to show that we all operate in our own best interests - but that doesn't mean we can't be allies.  Heck, Clinton approved more damaging sales from the US to China than the stuff from your links.  Also, most of the Bush administration deals seem to be about internal security and anti-terrorism stuff.

Quoted: I doubt any of those sales happen without a nod - however "unofficial" - from us.  Still, if it does happen it just goes to show that we all operate in our own best interests - but that doesn't mean we can't be allies.  Heck, Clinton approved more damaging sales from the US to China than the stuff from your links.  Also, most of the Bush administration deals seem to be about internal security and anti-terrorism stuff.

Allies maybe, but they still spy on the US and they operate in their best interests, which might not always coincide with the US' best interests.  Therein lies the problem, since most of the people on this board are Americans.  No one should excuse or condone an allied nation's actions when they are contrary to the interests of their own country.  That kind of thinking is what turns people in the first place.

Quoted: Allies maybe, but they still spy on the US and they operate in their best interests, which might not always coincide with the US' best interests.  Therein lies the problem, since most of the people on this board are Americans. No one should excuse or condone an allied nation's actions when they are contrary to the interests of their own country.  .

That's what I'm talking about.

Supposedly Americans HAPPY about their nation being spied on. WTFreak???

I don't care if its fricken Barney the Purpole Dinosaur spying on us.

As an American, I'm AGAINST it.

Quoted: Allies maybe, but they still spy on the US and they operate in their best interests, which might not always coincide with the US' best interests.  Therein lies the problem, since most of the people on this board are Americans. No one should excuse or condone an allied nation's actions when they are contrary to the interests of their own country.  .

That's what I'm talking about.

Supposedly Americans HAPPY about their nation being spied on. WTFreak???

I don't care if its fricken Barney the Purpole Dinosaur spying on us.

As an American, I'm AGAINST it.

Quoted: Quoted: Allies maybe, but they still spy on the US and they operate in their best interests, which might not always coincide with the US' best interests.  Therein lies the problem, since most of the people on this board are Americans. No one should excuse or condone an allied nation's actions when they are contrary to the interests of their own country.  . That's what I'm talking about. Supposedly Americans HAPPY about their nation being spied on. WTFreak??? I don't care if its fricken Barney the Purpole Dinosaur spying on us. As an American, I'm AGAINST it.

Who was happy?

Quoted: Who was happy?

Let;s not play word games.

People here were excusing the alleged spying as if it was normal and expected.

They practiclly applauded it.

But I'm NOT gonna get into a battle of semantics with you.

Lame, man.

Quoted: Quoted: Allies maybe, but they still spy on the US and they operate in their best interests, which might not always coincide with the US' best interests.  Therein lies the problem, since most of the people on this board are Americans. No one should excuse or condone an allied nation's actions when they are contrary to the interests of their own country.  . That's what I'm talking about. Supposedly Americans HAPPY about their nation being spied on. WTFreak??? I don't care if its fricken Barney the Purpole Dinosaur spying on us. As an American, I'm AGAINST it.

The choice of the word "happy" aside...

The Neutral Observer and garandman actually publically agree on something?  Dear God, what next...

Quoted: YOU ALL GOT OWNED BY ETH.

ETH ALWAYS wins arguments by sheer volume of words. Life is too short to endure his verbosity.

Quoted: Quoted: YOU ALL GOT OWNED BY ETH. ETH ALWAYS wins arguments by sheer volume of words. Life is too short to endure his verbosity.

Funny stuff.

If you do have a spare half-hour to wade through one of his posts however, you will find they are well-reasoned and logical, and often enlightening.

Quoted: The choice of the word "happy" aside...

They refuse to condemn Israel spying on us. And I know people here well enuf to know there is a certain satisfaction for Israel putting on over on the US. They don't have to SAY they are happy about it for me to know they are happy about it.

The Neutral Observer and garandman actually publically agree on something?  Dear God, what next...

You'll need to speak up more, cuz if we disagree, I don't remember it.  

Quoted: If you do have a spare half-hour to wade through one of his posts however, you will find they are well-reasoned and logical, and often enlightening.

Less is more.

I more highly regard the ability to convey a cogent, solid argument with concision and brevity.

Its a shame to hide good wisdom behind a billion words.

Quoted: Less is more. I more highly regard the ability to convey a cogent, solid argument with concision and brevity. Its a shame to hide good wisdom behind a billion words.

You must learn to appreciate language for the sake of language, and the artistry that goes into linguistic construction.  ETH definately takes it a few levels above many here.