Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You do need skill and to aim to hit stuff with a shotgun.BTW,I asked cause I have seen ZERO shotguns in Iraq. For what its worth, from my news photos thread today out of Najaf: us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040826/capt.mac10208261520.iraq_mac102.jpg does that shotgun have a stock? doesnt look like it. Anyone ever shoot one of those shotguns with no stock and just a pistol grip? seems like the recoil would be nasty.....

It's not any worse than full power .357 loads in a medium frame revolver.  You recognize it, but it's not painful.

Quoted: Quoted: Imagine you have your family gathered in your safe room and are sitting inside facing the only entry door with a weapon at the ready.     Imagine NOT having everyone in the safe room yet and having to engage. Worse yet, imagine the bad guy having gotten to one of your loved ones before you did.

::in my mind::
"SELECT SLUG  Bam! tango down.
I do need to get my wife to the hospital so she can have cortizone applied to her ears, but in this drill at 21 feet, (The longest shot in my house) I always put the one in the "T" box.

At all ranges in my house the pattern from my shotgut is roughly the size of a soft ball.
1 .45 vs 8 .38 impacts. I've been told that multiple impacts are better. OK. I empty the mag in my 590 in three seconds. We now have 72 .38 impacts.


::My opinion is worth exactly what you payed for it.::

um... are you telling me you actually fire your guns inside your house into the wall???

The pattern is the same outside as it is inside.

Quoted: Fedgunner, feel free to explain to me how 5-7 slugs has a significant advantage over 20-30 5.56mm.

It would be easier to explain to the jury...

I am in the process of acquiring a US made gas piston.  I want to get as far below as I can possible be as far as imported parts.

I might have a couple other parts that cold be US made if everything falls together correctly...

Quoted: What Lumpy and STLRN said. It's great for pissing off the trap and skeet crowd. hr

+1 i love doing that. 18'' barrel doesnt give much of a pattern though.

is the gas piston something thats commercially available or just a custom part you found?

Quoted: At all ranges in my house the pattern from my shotgut is roughly the size of a soft ball. 1 .45 vs 8 .38.33 impacts. I've been told that multiple impacts are better. OK. I empty the mag in my 590 in three seconds. We now have 72 .38.33 impacts. ::My opinion is worth exactly what you payed for it.:: Nothing

 

for those of you who may have missed it i carry a shotgun in iraq.   it works just find, it puts down the people i point it at. i realize it isnt a rifle, but its a hell of alot easier to shot from a moving truck and hit a guy in a moving car with it. i also have engaged guys in the wire from a guard tower with sucess.    for those of you who dont have any combat experience with a shotgun you may wanna think twice before you bad mouth it. i am surrounded by plenty of guys with m16s, distance targets get whacked by them, but anything under 100 meters i can grease no prollem, even if  both it and me are moving.

i dont know about the iraqis anywhere else, but where we are apparently the former regieme death squads used shotguns, so they are scared as hell of them, people try to get the hell away from me.

for anyone interested i carry a mossberg 500 with a cav arms sst-590 stock adapter, i love it, wouldnt trade it for anything.  the contracters go ape when they se eit and always wanna know where they can get one.

Let me be the first idiot here to say that if you got shot with a twelveguage slug the ammount of fire from your M-4 woukd be NADDA!!!

Maybe I/m all wrong here but do you see where this is going?

Bob

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fedgunner, feel free to explain to me how 5-7 slugs has a significant advantage over 20-30 5.56mm. It would be easier to explain to the jury... Give me a ONE case where that has played a roll in a convinction of someone claiming self-defence. I'll even give you a couple weeks to research that nugget of BS

I didn't say it would be a jury in a criminal case (though it could), but the criminals have families who could sue.

If I were a blood sucking lawyer I would find it EASIER to scare a jury with an AR15 than with an Rem 870. Not a sure thing, but easier.

I understand your point regarding the effectiveness of 5.56, but I'd like to survive what comes after the shooting too.

Quoted: So,there isnt really a place for shotguns besides 1.door breaching 2.pissing off the Fudds I suppose it does piss off trap shhoters when ypu bring a weapon like that to the range.

The only time I ever enjoyed shooting clays was when I took my 18" 870 with Knoxx Copstock and Surefire fore end to a skeet and trap club. I sure got a lot of dirty looks that day.

Quoted: I'm always amazed at how many people here DON'T use the Carbean for Home Defense, and opt for the Scattergun. What's the AR?  A toy for bump firing?

No shit.

Like anything else, they have their place... My choice for maritime use. Great for "vehicle stops" loaded buck - buck - buck - ferret - slug!

I look at the shotgun as weapon more effective than the handgun to be used at handgun ranges. I prefer mine light, short and with the recoil-reducing Knoxx Copstock it can be used effectively with only the pistol grip for CQB.

#1 buckshot rounds are the most effective load and I feel that slugs rob the shotty of its strong point, multiple projectiles.

A shotgun with slugs is a poor substitute for a rifle.

What kind of threat are you guys expecting that requires 30 rounds to handle? I prefer the shotgun, because of the destructive power that it carries in the house. The intimidation factor isn't there because I keep it loaded, so the only audible noise is the safty coming off and the Surefire coming on. I like buckshot, or even birdshot, because of the damage it causes, and the wound it creates. If I shoot someone in my house, I want him dead fast. The shotgun helps with this goal as it creates a large wound, presumably causing more bleeding and organ damage.

Here are some photos of a most excellent combat shotgun.

Argonaut Arms Web Site - look at their gallery, too

Scroll down about half way to see Brobeebiter's gun

I use my turkey slayer Mossberg 835 ulti-mag

I stand by my assertion, I have heard of shotguns being used in after action reports.

Oddly they seem to be the preferred weapon of the officer corps, who are saddled with the m9  and its unreliable mag problems... It makes far more sense to relieve the Sargeants of thier breeching shotguns and use them in urban combat then use the berettas.

I am a rifleman to the core, but it is a 12 gauge that is at the ready at home and work.

I recently spent some time training a guy whose NG unit is being activated and sent  to Iraq.  It is going to be his job to train fellow soldiers how to shoot, with a shotgun in particular.  Apparently, shotguns are getting a lot of use in convoy defense.

He showed up on the range with ZERO experience with shotguns.  In two hours of range time, he left relatively competent, with a huge increase in confidence.  He was mowing down pepper poppers like no one's business.  One of the excellent things about the shotgun is that someone can be made relatively combat effective, with a comparatively small amount of training, expecially compared to a pistol or carbine.

Don't get me wrong, I love my AR and various handguns and spend about an equal amount of time shooting them all.  However, if I ever had serious "social work" to do, and its inside of slug or buckshot range, I'll go with the shotgun every time.  As a civvie, if the bad guy isn't within shotgun slug range (100 yards on the outside), it would probably be difficult to prove in an Ohio court that the shooting was justified.  I keep both my M590 and my AR loaded around the house, but I can't think of too many "home defense scenarios" where I'd go for the AR first.  The AR would be more of a "siege defense" weapon.

I've never been in a gunfight, but I have shot a few deer in my day.  Last year, I shot one at about 15 yards with a slug.  The tissue damage was just devastating.  I've also shot various critters with .223.  It would take 3 or 4 hits with a .223 (especially ball ammo) to do the kind of damage that a 12 ga. slug, or load of #1 buckshot will do.

It may just be me, but when it comes to putting effective hits on targets at CQB ranges, I'm much faster with a shotgun than with a handgun or carbine.  When I'm really in the groove, I can clear 5 bowling pins off of a table (25 feet, standard bowling pin set table) in about 3-4 seconds, with a pump M590.  That's timed, in a match, not just an estimate.  I can't even come close to that with an AR or handgun.  

Hopefully this will shed some light on the subject:

The Shotgun
(from "The Role of the Five", Jeff Cooper)

The shotgun, which originated as a fowling piece, has come into increasing poularity in law-enforcement circles in recent decades.  When police in America find themselves embattled they invariably go for the shotgun, if one is available.  This is only reasonable, since the combat shotgun is measurably more powerful than the police pistol and easier to use.  (Curiously, it is regarded as unacceptably brutal in Europe.)

To be used most efficiently the shotgun requires certain technical and training factors that are not widely understood.  Those who criticize the shotgun for lack of range and lack of precision are talking about the wrong sort of shotgun, used in untrained hands.  The shotgun is capable of astonishing precision at the very short ranges at which it is often used, since the shot charge does not begin to open up inside five or six paces, at which distance it can be used like a rifle.  Furthermore, skilled shotgunners generally prefer to use the single-projectile, which turns the shotgun into a very powerful short range rifle.  To those who insist that the advantage of the shotgun is its dispersed pattern it should be pointed out that in order to achieve a solid stop on a human adversary the pattern must be centered, and a centered charge of shot is no more, or less, effective than a centered single projectile.

The combat shotgun must be equiped with a proper set of sights.  Without sights its reach is about 35 paces, whereas with a good set of sights and a good single projectile it can add 100 paces to that distance.

Training with the combat shotgun need not be elaborate, but it must be complete.  It is unfortunate that very few of the people who are issued shotguns for combat duty, both in the law enforcement and the military establishments, have anything resembling proper training in the use of the weapon.

The shotgun comes into its own after dark, when ranges are short and speed and power are paramount.  A shotgun delivers a terminal blow - which cannot always be said of a pistol, a machine pistol, or a carbine.  For this reason the magazine capacity of the shotgun is not a particularly important consideration.  A man who cannot handle a personal confrontation with two or three charges of buckshot probably cannot handle it with anything.

I was interested to find that the single-barrel, nonrepeating shotgun is very popular for guard forces in Latin America.  A gateguard armed with one load of #00 buckshot must be taken seriously by intruders.  If, on the other hand, he is killed or robbed, or if he defects, the enemy has not gained as much as might otherwise be the case.

The shotgun can never match the pistol as a defensive arm, since you must go and get it.  Neither can it match the rifle, since it cannot reach.  On the other hand it has great usefulness in situations where the user is not quite sure of the situation, such as entering a confused bickering in which there probably will be no shooting, but may call for it if things go wrong.  Thus it is attractive for police entry into questionable buildings.  Its drawback of large and bulky ammunition is not serious since it is hardly ever intended for sustained combat operations.

Probably its ease of use remains the most conspicuous asset of the smoothbore.  Most men can be trained to use the shotgun effectively in less time and with a smaller expenditure of ammunition that with any other smallarm.

Well, don't know what kind of experience you folks have with dead people shot with shotguns, but here's one for you.

We had a suicide where a dude shot himself in the chest (obviously point blank range) with a 12 ga slug.

It penetrated all the way through the chest cavity and only failed to get thru the skin on his back.  Nice, big, round, 12 ga lump in the middle of his back.

We all understand (I hope) that the job of the .223 round is to fragment upon entering soft tissue.  A person will typically bleed out, unless there is serious traumatic injury, enough to cause shock, or a hit to the CNS to cause instant lights out.

I've never shot a person with either, but I have shot several deer with a variety of weapons.

The only deer I have seen "dropped" (in my limited experience, I am not a life long hunter like some of you may be) are the one I shot with a 12 ga slug, and one shot with a .300 Weatherby Mag.

I don't wanna carry a .300 Wby for home defense!!!!

 I too am a shotty fan and I believe it has a place in the combat tool box.  Would I equip everyone  with one, of course not, but like everything it's combined arms that make us efficent. As has been mentioned before the shotgun rules in CQB in tight areas and is awesome for vehicular counter-ambush. Remember that you have other guys to take care of the long distance stuff.

Quoted: Well, don't know what kind of experience you folks have with dead people shot with shotguns, but here's one for you. We had a suicide where a dude shot himself in the chest (obviously point blank range) with a 12 ga slug. It penetrated all the way through the chest cavity and only failed to get thru the skin on his back.  Nice, big, round, 12 ga lump in the middle of his back. We all understand (I hope) that the job of the .223 round is to fragment upon entering soft tissue.  A person will typically bleed out, unless there is serious traumatic injury, enough to cause shock, or a hit to the CNS to cause instant lights out. I've never shot a person with either, but I have shot several deer with a variety of weapons. The only deer I have seen "dropped" (in my limited experience, I am not a life long hunter like some of you may be) are the one I shot with a 12 ga slug, and one shot with a .300 Weatherby Mag. I don't wanna carry a .300 Wby for home defense!!!!

While it would seem that using “field case” examples of actual shootings would provide clear study… there is a dichotomy to these statistics. People are an enigma and quite often their reaction to a shooting is based - to a large part - on what they believe the outcome of a shooting should be: Perhaps everyone has heard or knows of examples of shooting victims surviving surely fatal injuries for many hours or days after the event, while other cases have people dropping over dead from what should have been little more than an unpleasant flesh wound.

That said, I have (fortunately) been close to very few shootings, fatal or otherwise -- but can think of a few examples where the recipient was dead as fried chicken before he hit the ground, DRT as they say.

One involved a single 10MM Auto round under the raised left arm in a shootout… off like a light. Another, oddly enough, was a single 12Ga slug to the back of the head, ‘nough said.

Finally, on night in what was supposed to be a “contained” environment, a .25 Auto was produced and fired quickly into my friends back, the actor got off 2 rounds prior to being removed from the equation (later, it was learned the gun jammed on the 3rd round). One of the two quarter inch slugs made it about a whole inch before striking the scapula and stopping barely even deformed… The other, however, made it about 5 inches through tissue and muscle, the bulk of that muscle being his left ventricle. I am sure that he lived for the short few seconds that made up the following melee, but had crossed the bar well before anyone could get to him to try to help.

But, to chime in again, I am somewhat a fan of the Gauge… certainly have never felt under armed with one.

I have a Mossberg 590 modified with an AR adapter, an ACE Socom stock, a set of MMC Ghost Ring night sights, and a Surefire M70 forend (hence my call name).

I also have a Bushy Dissipator and an Eagle arms 20" A2, both modded as I think is necessary.  As far as aim at CQB type distances (25 yds) I prefer the Mossy simply because I'm spot on, center mass (Mr paper bandit) and I can get off 9 rounds much faster than I can with either AR.

Plus I get a two for one when the wad hits the bad guy also!

Long story short; in the house or CQB I'll take the Mossy.  Anything longer requires the ARs.

M590man

I am an AR fan...
I am a Shotgun fan...
I am a pisol fan...

Like all of them for what they are and their use. My feelings on if they are still suited for combat...

I belive no single weapon is suited for combat.

MT

Quoted: I suppose it does piss off trap shhoters when ypu bring a weapon like that to the range.

It does. They all laughed at me when I brought my 18.5" 870 to the trap range. They all shut up when I outshot most of them.

Quoted: Quoted: I suppose it does piss off trap shhoters when ypu bring a weapon like that to the range. It does. They all laughed at me when I brought my 18.5" 870 to the trap range. They all shut up when I outshot most of them.

Shotguns pretty much work the same, If you pay $10,000 for one you have a $10,000 shot shooter. Where you shooting with a skeet choke?

Quoted: It would be easier to explain to the jury...

If I hear this one more time, I may vomit.

Well, one limitation of any longarm, shotguns included, is the difficulty in wielding them in extremely tight quarters (think hallway).  It becomes more difficult to maneuver with a long firearm.

Another thing, if the bad guy gets too close and gets his hands on the gun, he will likely strip it from you.  You are holding the grip and the forearm.  The bad guy gets the butt stock and the muzzle.  As we all know, the one who gets the ends wins (in other words, you lose because he has greater leverage).

One final limitation of a shotgun, reloads are fairly slow.  This can be deadly.  Leaving one in the chamber while reloading can be dangerous (not leaving one in the chamber can also be dangerous).

In super tight quarters (aka, hand-to-hand combat) a pistol reigns supreme.

In a defensive seige, a shotgun would be a good tool.  Hide, take cover (or at least concealment), cover the entrances with the shotgun.

Just a thought.

Quoted:

I find your post to be thoughtful, but I'm gonna disagree with ya.

It is my belief that all the situations you describe are legit, however, can be easily overcome with sufficient training.

Well, one limitation of any longarm, shotguns included, is the difficulty in wielding them in extremely tight quarters (think hallway).  It becomes more difficult to maneuver with a long firearm. Yeah, simple matter of physics there, unless someone comes up witha collapsable barrell.   Although a properly deployed pistol will be as far out as a shouldered scattergun (talkin 18" or 20" size) Another thing, if the bad guy gets too close and gets his hands on the gun, he will likely strip it from you.  You are holding the grip and the forearm.  The bad guy gets the butt stock and the muzzle.  As we all know, the one who gets the ends wins (in other words, you lose because he has greater leverage). No, there is a technique called the "J Stroke".  If you have any LEO friends, they can show you.  Nothing is 100%, but this is like 95%.  Also, SIZE MATTERS One final limitation of a shotgun, reloads are fairly slow.  This can be deadly.  Leaving one in the chamber while reloading can be dangerous (not leaving one in the chamber can also be dangerous). Again, I feel this is a function of training.  Also, some folks are faster at manual tasks than others.  One advantage a shotgun has, is you can load it as you go, staying "full" if you need to (and are able to...) In super tight quarters (aka, hand-to-hand combat) a pistol reigns supreme. Negative.  This is how most cops get shot, and usually with their own gun!! In a defensive seige, a shotgun would be a good tool.  Hide, take cover (or at least concealment), cover the entrances with the shotgun. Just a thought.

Quoted: Shotguns pretty much work the same, If you pay $10,000 for one you have a $10,000 shot shooter. Where you shooting with a skeet choke?

No chokes. Vang Comp barrel

Did a alarm response at work this afternoon, one guess as to what I did that with.