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Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:28:44 PM EDT
[#1]
WELL....I have been able to pick up some useful info here....but I think I am going to have to take a class, figure out how to do it right, and cross my fingers my place doesnt get broken into before I figure out the right way to do it.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:29:17 PM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
[Please do tell.

The poster asked about a rifle for home defense.  You and some other folks offered him some well-intentioned but misguided advice about shotguns.  A couple of people who know what the hell they're talking about tried to steer him in the correct direction, and you showed up and started acting like an asshole.  

Yes, an M4 is better for home defense than a pistol or a shotgun, if it's properly set up.

Are we all clear now?


Yes, the poster did.....but merely suggesting a shotgun for home defense is a bad idea? No offense to the poster since this is an example that has nothing to do with him, but if he asked which samurai sword to use for home defense, wouldn't suggesting an alternative be appropriate?

However, I'm enjoying pants dropping and ruler grabbing....



The original poster was on the right track in planning on getting an AR for home defense.  He just needed some suggestions for configuration.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:29:50 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
QuietShootr, do you and 1776 have some ongoing pissing contest or do you just normally come across as an arrogant prick?



Yes.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:31:32 PM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
[Please do tell.

The poster asked about a rifle for home defense.  You and some other folks offered him some well-intentioned but misguided advice about shotguns.  A couple of people who know what the hell they're talking about tried to steer him in the correct direction, and you showed up and started acting like an asshole.  

Yes, an M4 is better for home defense than a pistol or a shotgun, if it's properly set up.

Are we all clear now?


Yes, the poster did.....but merely suggesting a shotgun for home defense is a bad idea? No offense to the poster since this is an example that has nothing to do with him, but if he asked which samurai sword to use for home defense, wouldn't suggesting an alternative be appropriate?

However, I'm enjoying pants dropping and ruler grabbing....



If a guy posted asking about the best motorcycle for commuting to school, would you find a suggestion that he buy a ten-speed bike a useful answer?

Edit: This water's cold....and deep, too.



Yeah, if he lived 5 blocks from school, the 10-speed would be the best. Right tool for the job.
He can spend $200 or $2000, either way, it's up to him....either way, with the proper training, he'll be able to defend himself.

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:32:19 PM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
QuietShootr, do you and 1776 have some ongoing pissing contest or do you just normally come across as an arrogant prick?



Yes.



Thanks for the clarification  
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:33:52 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
QuietShootr, do you and 1776 have some ongoing pissing contest or do you just normally come across as an arrogant prick?



Yes.



Thanks for the clarification  



I'm here to help.  Tip the busboys...
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:36:52 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
[Please do tell.

The poster asked about a rifle for home defense.  You and some other folks offered him some well-intentioned but misguided advice about shotguns.  A couple of people who know what the hell they're talking about tried to steer him in the correct direction, and you showed up and started acting like an asshole.  

Yes, an M4 is better for home defense than a pistol or a shotgun, if it's properly set up.

Are we all clear now?


Yes, the poster did.....but merely suggesting a shotgun for home defense is a bad idea? No offense to the poster since this is an example that has nothing to do with him, but if he asked which samurai sword to use for home defense, wouldn't suggesting an alternative be appropriate?

However, I'm enjoying pants dropping and ruler grabbing....



If a guy posted asking about the best motorcycle for commuting to school, would you find a suggestion that he buy a ten-speed bike a useful answer?





He stated VERY clearly that he thought a SHOTGUN was GOOD advice then he CLEARLY asked for recommedations on a SHOTGUN load (i.e 00buck). Some recomendations were made and then you strated dripping turds out of your mouth that you know it all and we must submit to your opinion.

What fucking part about that do you not understand? Why are you now trying to FORCE your "opinion" on everyone?

Let it go dude. You were an ass from the get go and you got called on it. Surely this cant be a first for you.

Anyway, please do carry on. I have said quite enough for you to think about. I hope you dont feel to bad and go kick the dog or beat your wife. Go have a beer in a dark corner in your basment and think about what was said.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:38:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:39:08 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
QuietShootr, do you and 1776 have some ongoing pissing contest or do you just normally come across as an arrogant prick?



Yes.





You're a prick or you have a previous beef with me? Maybe both?

Please elinghten me has to "our" situation if there is one.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:40:00 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:



Holy Moses QuietShootr...Go on ATKINS already!

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:40:42 PM EDT
[#11]
My recomendation is a 16 inch barrel, not an m4 style with a long brake. If you need a 16 inch barrel, it should be 16 inches of barrel.

Use either the short entry stock, or wait a few weeks and get one that telescopes.

for ammo 193, others recomended heavier ammo, but 30 rounds of 55gr fmj should give anyone a very bad day.

BTW I have that setup, with the telescoping stock next to my bed as I type this.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:43:41 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
WELL....I have been able to pick up some useful info here....but I think I am going to have to take a class, figure out how to do it right, and cross my fingers my place doesnt get broken into before I figure out the right way to do it.




Whatever you do anything is better than nothing. Use whatever you have handy until you decide on something for sure.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:44:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:45:21 PM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:
My recomendation is a 16 inch barrel, not an m4 style with a long brake. If you need a 16 inch barrel, it should be 16 inches of barrel.

Use either the short entry stock, or wait a few weeks and get one that telescopes.

for ammo 193, others recomended heavier ammo, but 30 rounds of 55gr fmj should give anyone a very bad day.

BTW I have that setup, with the telescoping stock next to my bed as I type this.



I disagree, for home defense you don't need the extra velocity of the additional barrel.  Any range for home defense will be well within fragmentation range.  Better to have a 14.5" M4 barrel and a flash suppressor to protect the muzzle and maintain good night vision.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:47:33 PM EDT
[#15]
AR, Shotgun,AR, Shotgun.......

How about a third option for home defense............


Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:48:26 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My recomendation is a 16 inch barrel, not an m4 style with a long brake. If you need a 16 inch barrel, it should be 16 inches of barrel.

Use either the short entry stock, or wait a few weeks and get one that telescopes.

for ammo 193, others recomended heavier ammo, but 30 rounds of 55gr fmj should give anyone a very bad day.

BTW I have that setup, with the telescoping stock next to my bed as I type this.



I disagree, for home defense you don't need the extra velocity of the additional barrel.  Any range for home defense will be well within fragmentation range.  Better to have a 14.5" M4 barrel and a flash suppressor to protect the muzzle and maintain good night vision.





Thanks!  Now I have a good reason to get an M4gery.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:49:23 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My recomendation is a 16 inch barrel, not an m4 style with a long brake. If you need a 16 inch barrel, it should be 16 inches of barrel.

Use either the short entry stock, or wait a few weeks and get one that telescopes.

for ammo 193, others recomended heavier ammo, but 30 rounds of 55gr fmj should give anyone a very bad day.

BTW I have that setup, with the telescoping stock next to my bed as I type this.



I disagree, for home defense you don't need the extra velocity of the additional barrel.  Any range for home defense will be well within fragmentation range.  Better to have a 14.5" M4 barrel and a flash suppressor to protect the muzzle and maintain good night vision.



...or a 10.5" and a can.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:53:59 PM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For Home defense, you don't want an AR.  Go for a Rem 870, extended mag tube, add a Surefire forend and top it with a set of ghost rings.
www.mkgamers.com/bhd/images/remington870shotgun.gif

Shit, you can just stick with this...
www.kyimports.com/Thumbs/remington870police.JPG

Sweet, simple, reliable and cheap right out of the box.

Overall, a shotgun is ideal since you don't really need to real aim at close range, just get it in their direction. With tactical loads you wouldn't need to worry about penetrating several walls and your background, and everyone or anyone who makes "a living" by B&E will know that distinctive metallic sound when you chamber a shell.



You are responsible for everything you put downrange. You better aim everything you shoot.




Nevermind the 4 rules.




For the record, the comment included emphasis on really. I'm well aware of the basics and don't believe I should be crucified for a misplacing an emodicon for further emphasis on the sarcasim.

"Overall, a shotgun is ideal since you don't really need to real aim at close range, just get it in their direction. "

Better?

I'll take your response because it's my error for not being clearer.....but I don't believe it's fair to jump on someone without further asking about background, unless it's in a humourous way. Rest assured I know the four rules and appreciate your reminder....  
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 9:06:22 PM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
My recomendation is a 16 inch barrel, not an m4 style with a long brake. If you need a 16 inch barrel, it should be 16 inches of barrel.

Use either the short entry stock, or wait a few weeks and get one that telescopes.

for ammo 193, others recomended heavier ammo, but 30 rounds of 55gr fmj should give anyone a very bad day.

BTW I have that setup, with the telescoping stock next to my bed as I type this.



I disagree, for home defense you don't need the extra velocity of the additional barrel.  Any range for home defense will be well within fragmentation range.  Better to have a 14.5" M4 barrel and a flash suppressor to protect the muzzle and maintain good night vision.



...or a 10.5" and a can.



Yeah, if you want to go the NFA route.  I was thinking more of a "quick and easy" rifle.  10.5" w/ a can is two NFA tax stamps.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 9:21:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Like I've said before, be the first badass on your block to get a 1" barrel with a 15" flash suppressor.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 9:24:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Wow, I didn't know that "The AR15.com Ammo-Oracle" was the be all end all of ballistics information.  

Seems to me ballistics is a subject that has been hotly debated ever since firearms were invented.

I can think of some highly respected experts who would have a lot to say if they were told that an AR is better for home defense than a shotgun.

Ever heard of Jeff Cooper?  The one who invented those 4 rules?  He hates the black rifle.  Ah yes, opinions are like assholes...



 
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 9:44:42 PM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:
AR, Shotgun,AR, Shotgun.......

How about a third option for home defense............


www.giftsforpets.ca/images/breedofthemonth/german_shepard.jpg




 but do you think the fangs on that German Shepard will overpenetrate?  
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 9:46:23 PM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:
Jesucristo, the Misinformation Squad is really out in force tonight.

Disregard all that shit you read above if you actually want to know what to do.  Buckshot overpenetrates more than 5.56.

Aimpoint, SureFire forearm rail mounted light, and 77gr TAP or Mk262.  



The Ammo Oracle says 9mm and 00 buck.  He suggested #4 buck.  

If you think a .24, 20.6 grain pellet at 1225 fps is going to penetrate like a .22, 62 grain bullet at 3050 fps, I have some news for you...

How deadly is buckshot at 100 yards?  How deadly is .223 at 100 yards?  If your going to start shooting .223 in your neighborhood, you better not send any rounds astray.  

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:09:34 PM EDT
[#24]
Why worry about overpenetration? Just use Terminator-X in your tactical room clearing device.

CW
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:14:01 PM EDT
[#25]
Just a moment... where in NY are you moving to, if you don't mind my asking? If its New York City, the choice of AR15 design is simple. NONE! Both NYC and Albany have AWBs that ban both name brand, copycats and High capacity magazines. Having lived in that hellhole ten years ago, I still remember going to the city council meeting where they enacted the ban despite the objections of thousands of city gun owners. Then six months later getting a letter from .gov kindly demanding I surrender or dispose of my Colt A2 else I get a 3 AM knock on the door... please reconsider moving here if either of those cities are your destination. You should also consider the type of neighborhood you're moving to. Good or bad area? House or apartment? Brick or wood frame? Attached or detached houses? Plot size? Proximity to area ranges( NYC and Albany have none within city limits unless LEO)? There are board members who can debrief you on all of the above.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:02:59 AM EDT
[#26]
Alright

1) QS is right... A 5.56mm weapon is a better choice than a shotgun for home defense...

2) As for AR config, 16" bbl, and whatever stock fits you best... Don't get the 'entry' or short tele-stock just for size, get the one that you feel most comfortable with in terms of cheek weld/etc...

This is not Hollywood here, hip shooting doesn't work, so you WILL need to aim your weapon (use the sights), and if the stock is too short, this becomes a PITA...

Get an A2 style rifle, iron sights are a must-have... If you want an optic, carry-handle mount it...

The rest has all been said...
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:06:43 AM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Jesucristo, the Misinformation Squad is really out in force tonight.

Disregard all that shit you read above if you actually want to know what to do.  Buckshot overpenetrates more than 5.56.

Aimpoint, SureFire forearm rail mounted light, and 77gr TAP or Mk262.  



The Ammo Oracle says 9mm and 00 buck.  He suggested #4 buck.  

If you think a .24, 20.6 grain pellet at 1225 fps is going to penetrate like a .22, 62 grain bullet at 3050 fps, I have some news for you...

How deadly is buckshot at 100 yards?  How deadly is .223 at 100 yards?  If your going to start shooting .223 in your neighborhood, you better not send any rounds astray.  




The point is that .223 AFTER PASSING THRU WALLS is less deadly than buckshot...

Why?

Because it doesn't hold it's velocity well enough to fragment IF it makes it thru the wall - it may well fragment from wall impact...

As for #4, #4 doesn't penetrate people well enough to be a reliable defense round...

This is the 'issue' with defensive shotguns: rounds that are OP safe aren't capable of enough penetration for use on human targets. Rounds that are good defensive loads (00 buck, 000 buck) are OP monsters....
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:12:25 AM EDT
[#28]

Quoted:
Jesucristo, the Misinformation Squad is really out in force tonight.




Ain't it the truth.  Sheesh.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:17:06 AM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Tactical loads? Any Recommendations? .00 Buck?



I load mine with the first two 00-buck and the rest with slugs.



Yeah, that'll solve his overpenetration concerns...




Who says I am worried about over penetration?

Get off the high horse dude. Any HD firearm shot in my house is not going to get out other than a window.
Where is your your .223 now jackass?


BTW  where does he mention anything about overpenetration cooncerns?




Now for some Good Olde Tyme Arfcom slang...

Good
For
You.

I suggest you refer to Forest's words of wisdom above, and close your cockholster.  You might learn something.



Its good to see someone give up when they know they dont have a leg to stand on. I can understand you being new to the world of firearms and all but let the grown ups get on with this disscussion and go to your room.





Junior, the only thing you're doing is making yourself look like a bigger ass...and I wasn't even sure you could do that.  Run along, now.



What exactly are you trying to prove? Shotguns and handguns are not good for home defense and an AR15 is sooooo much better? Where are you trying to hijack this thread to?

Please do tell.



The poster asked about a rifle for home defense.  You and some other folks offered him some well-intentioned but misguided advice about shotguns.  A couple of people who know what the hell they're talking about tried to steer him in the correct direction, and you showed up and started acting like an asshole.  

Yes, an M4 is better for home defense than a pistol or a shotgun, if it's properly set up.

Are we all clear now?



No you are the one who charged in here like superman and ripped your shirt off to expose the "S" on your chest. Go back and read your posts and tell me thats not how you came off. Thats when I took offence.
Go ahead and re-read it.

See? you came off like a know it all fuck jerk. The readers and posters in this thread deserve an apology from you. Be a man and step up.

I will go first.

Sorry for calling you out on your know it all attitude.



After reading all this, I would have to say that 1776 is the know-it-all jerk.  You are the one who should issue the apology.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:22:55 AM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
[Please do tell.

The poster asked about a rifle for home defense.  You and some other folks offered him some well-intentioned but misguided advice about shotguns.  A couple of people who know what the hell they're talking about tried to steer him in the correct direction, and you showed up and started acting like an asshole.  

Yes, an M4 is better for home defense than a pistol or a shotgun, if it's properly set up.

Are we all clear now?


Yes, the poster did.....but merely suggesting a shotgun for home defense is a bad idea? No offense to the poster since this is an example that has nothing to do with him, but if he asked which samurai sword to use for home defense, wouldn't suggesting an alternative be appropriate?

However, I'm enjoying pants dropping and ruler grabbing....



If a guy posted asking about the best motorcycle for commuting to school, would you find a suggestion that he buy a ten-speed bike a useful answer?





He stated VERY clearly that he thought a SHOTGUN was GOOD advice then he CLEARLY asked for recommedations on a SHOTGUN load (i.e 00buck). Some recomendations were made and then you strated dripping turds out of your mouth that you know it all and we must submit to your opinion.

What fucking part about that do you not understand? Why are you now trying to FORCE your "opinion" on everyone?

Let it go dude. You were an ass from the get go and you got called on it. Surely this cant be a first for you.

Anyway, please do carry on. I have said quite enough for you to think about. I hope you dont feel to bad and go kick the dog or beat your wife. Go have a beer in a dark corner in your basment and think about what was said.



He CLEARLY did not ask a damn thing about a shotgun until all the misinformation started flowing.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:28:51 AM EDT
[#31]
BINGO BINGO BINGO  We have a winnah here.  Jor_El made it past all the breast beaters, egomaniacs to finally ask the right questions or at least heading the right direction.

The original questioner made it clear he wanted something to cover the gap from arrival to registering the pistols, etc.  To me, and whadda I know I'm in CA, but that seems to imply NYC.

In any case, first where and what kind of house???,  you can't give the right or more correct answer (although as you can see you can beatoff for your own and one others enjoyment)  An apartment in NYC? or a house out in the suburbs with close neighbors or a house with not so close neighbors.  A dog might well be the best first line, although keeping a dog in the city is not nice for the dog.

He may not want to buy a whiz bang AR variant with a few more thousands in accessories to keep it in the closet.

Now as some of you might remember I also do Cowboy Shooting and I don't advertise just too much what arms I have or where they are, but if you see I'm on this sight you might want to assume that I have 45s, shotguns and maybe even a black rifle or two ensconced in the Danby Abode.

And I am by no means an expert  in this and don't pass myself off as one (on this subject), but iffn I was to venture a suggestion it might be to consider somethign in the line of a 16" barrel lever rifle in  44Mag or 45 Colt.  200-300 grains of a soft lead slug traveling from 800-1200 fps is going to make the target awful sick and sore, mgiht even discourage him/her up to the point they just ups and dies on yah.

Plus , you don't have all the penetration problems, some but not all.

The final and more correct answer is "IT DEPENDS", why not find out enough data to make a learned  suggestion.  but losing a $200 Big 5 Winchester or Marlin to an evidence locker is far less traumatic than losing $2k of black rifle.  And to mollify some of the nervous nellies,  what would sound better to a jury, "Why I got a rifle jest like my grandpap used for deerhunting"  or "on the advice of Gunsite, Home Tactical Killers, Soldiers of fortune, and the AR15.com website, I got this upgraded military assault weapon that I was assured would do everything  in any situation and only reduce the bad guy to a neat pile of body remnants."

You guys can start the mutual masturbation up again.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:32:11 AM EDT
[#32]
But if  he did get a shot gun this would be the pefect round for it

12 GA. “Flame Thower”
The 12 Ga. "Flame Thrower" round as pictured produces an enormous wall of fire for 250+ feet. The incendiary metal compound contained inside burns when fired at over 4000 degrees fahrenheit, showering your target in a momentary wall of flame. WARNING! Extreme fire hazard. Do not shoot in any dry grass foliage, trees, or near flammable materials. Don’t shoot indoors. Use extreme caution. 23/4” round......

and yes I'm joking.    250 feet!! damn thats got to look neat.

wolf
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:32:31 AM EDT
[#33]
Personally I'd prefer a good fullsize .45 with a nice bright light on it. And robably an M4-gery loaded with standard 55grn loads for if shit is too thick for a .45 to cut it. I honestly can't imagine how 1-3 blind bad guys can stand much of a chance against a USP 45 + UTL with a couple 12rnd magazines.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:00:49 AM EDT
[#34]
FWIW Botch, we've moved into a condo and I made the same decision.  My 9mm is still my CCW, retired my Mossy 12 ga, and pre-banifying my Bushy 16".  With a minimum of two and, in the most likely situation four, dry-walls between me and unintended targets, I think that's the best attempt I can make at keeping me and mine safe with less chance of blowing fatal holes in the neighbors too.

I'm happy with an Aimpoint and a little G-2 from BF under the handguards - don't need to blind a BG at 100 yds after all.  Regarding ammo, please see Forest's recommendations and Ammo Oracle.  Personally, BH 68 gr. for me but ARs are surprisingly selective about these so try the 69s and 75s too.  I think the likelihood of needing to use a (condo anyway) home defense rifle at anything beyond 25 feet is real slim but it could happen so see what works best.

I don't think the same way Gomer does regarding "having a $200 shotgun confiscated and held as evidence after a defensive shooting, instead of the $1500 AR-15".  If I ever really need to use a weapon, I'll use whatever I can.  Hopefully I'll have what I think will work best readily available and I'm prepared to let them hold whatever it was as evidence.  I'll just confiscate my wife's SAR-3 for a while.

I do wish an AR would fit in a nightstand though.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:11:56 AM EDT
[#35]

Quoted:
Wow, I didn't know that "The AR15.com Ammo-Oracle" was the be all end all of ballistics information.  

Seems to me ballistics is a subject that has been hotly debated ever since firearms were invented.

I can think of some highly respected experts who would have a lot to say if they were told that an AR is better for home defense than a shotgun.

Ever heard of Jeff Cooper?  The one who invented those 4 rules?  He hates the black rifle.  Ah yes, opinions are like assholes...



 




Yeah, do what Cooper says and buy a bolt action .376. They are perfect for home defense.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:10:01 AM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:14:40 AM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:
Like I've said before, be the first badass on your block to get a 1" barrel with a 15" flash suppressor.



Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:29:59 AM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:


but more importantly everyone or anyone who makes "a living" by B&E will know that distinctive metallic sound when you chamber a shell.



Why rack the slide and put a good round on the ground? My 870 is chambered all the time just in case I don't have time to work the action.

But if my wife and I are on the road to a match and stay in a hotel, we keep one of our ARs standing guard with a 30 round mag at the ready.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:50:46 AM EDT
[#39]
If Botch is indeed moving from CA to NY, he's moving from one Police state to another. If it's NYC, as was mentioned, no AR's, which would be a shame if that's the option he wants.

As far as ballastics, I understand we can debate the relative penetration of 00 Buck vs. 5.56 all day long. But frankly, if an intruder is hit with a shotgun blast, even of 20 gauge #3 buckshot, I'd be hard pressed to believe that 20 .25 caliber lead balls wouldn't atleast make the intruder stop for a moment and reconsider.

Atleast that's what Mike Hammer did in Chapter 12.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:52:52 AM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Wow, I didn't know that "The AR15.com Ammo-Oracle" was the be all end all of ballistics information.  

Seems to me ballistics is a subject that has been hotly debated ever since firearms were invented.

I can think of some highly respected experts who would have a lot to say if they were told that an AR is better for home defense than a shotgun.

Ever heard of Jeff Cooper?  The one who invented those 4 rules?  He hates the black rifle.  Ah yes, opinions are like assholes...



"Be all, end all" (isn't that supposed to be "End all, be all?") of ballistics information?  No, we never intended it to be.  However, on the subject of AR15 v. Shotgun v. 9mm/.40/.45 home defense we've done quite a bit of work.  That is because this argument comes up literally once every 60 days.  We wrote the Ammo Oracle for this express purpose, to collect the current "state of the art" of ballistics knowledge in one place so these sorts of arguments could be answered with a link instead of 25,000 words.  Clearly, we have failed since the number of arguments and their length hasn't abated one hair since we released the Oracle.  I suspect this is more a comment on the number of boneheads than the boneheadness of the Oracle, but I'm not exactly an objective observer in this matter.

For "home defense" given the choices outlined above we recommend the AR15 with M193 or better (75 grain/77 grain/69 grain/68 grain OTM).  We do so under the umbra of the following conditions and assumptions:

1.  12" penetration in calibrated gel is the minimum performance for an anti-personnel round.  Though a somewhat arbitrary number it seems to have held up as a good standard and though gel isn't perfect as a tissue simulator it correlates enough to good performance in tissue to be the best there is to offer.  Additionally, fragmenting rounds are preferred insofar as they open larger cavities and are likely to do more deep (4-10") vascular damage (which is what it's all about).

2.  Overpenetration, particularly through interior walls, is an undesirable thing.  This is on the assumption that "home defense" means there are other innocents in: 1. Your residence.  2.  The apartment next door with shared wall space.  3.  The house next door.  By overpenetration we mean penetration through walls by projectiles with high to medium wounding capacity after these penetrations.

3.  The smallest performing shot in 12ga that meets standards articulated in 1. above is #1 buck, and this ONLY in the case that the shot is hardened.  This is a hard load to come by.  Just stop even talking about anything smaller (particularly #4 buck) before you start.  Smaller loads are not stopping loads for violent offenders and never have been.

4.  #1 buck and larger are rounded projectiles that penetrate like crazy.  Hardened they also do not deform and this means they zip through interior walls with the greatest of ease.  This is bad because of 2. above.

5.  Handgun rounds because they are slower and more massive, do not break up when encountering interior walls and therefore tend to penetrate them while retaining a great deal of their mass and velocity and therefore wounding potential.  Handgun rounds have far LOWER wounding potential than .223 or 5.56 rounds before striking walls and far MORE than .223 or 5.56 after striking them.  This is exactly the reverse of the desired condition.

Poo poo the Ammo Oracle all you like.  Recognize, however, that just by the fact that you are having this argument brands you as a Johnny come lately in this subject.  We don't write passages in the Oracle because we are guessing.  We write them because the facts (like the lesser wounding of 5.56 after interior wall encounters) support them.  If we have our facts wrong (as we occasionally do) all one need to is correct us by sending me or Troy or Brouhaha an email with a citation to the correct information.  We rarely get taken up on this simple request.  This leads me to believe we tend to get it "right" "most of the time."  Again, feel free to correct us.  Until then you are engaging in ballistics mythmaking and armchair physics.  Not a noble profession.



Tat, I suspect you're giving good information to people who've already made up their minds, and don't care to be bothered with factual information.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:59:40 AM EDT
[#41]

Quoted:
If Botch is indeed moving from CA to NY, he's moving from one Police state to another. If it's NYC, as was mentioned, no AR's, which would be a shame if that's the option he wants.

As far as ballastics, I understand we can debate the relative penetration of 00 Buck vs. 5.56 all day long. But frankly, if an intruder is hit with a shotgun blast, even of 20 gauge #3 buckshot, I'd be hard pressed to believe that 20 .25 caliber lead balls wouldn't atleast make the intruder stop for a moment and reconsider.

Atleast that's what Mike Hammer did in Chapter 12.



You'd be wrong on both counts.  It's established fact that OO buck will overpenetrate building materials to a much greater degree than 5.56.  If you want to argue that, you're welcome to.  The Flat Earth Society meets at 1500 in room 212.

As for shotguns being a more effective/instant stopper than a rifle, You'd Think that would be true...but as with most gut reactions, you'd be incorrect.  If Pat Rogers would waste his time with stupid arguments like this one, he'd tell you about NUMEROUS NYPD shootings where the subject was not very impressed with multiple close-range shotgun hits, with buck and Winchester 12ga slugs.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:10:32 AM EDT
[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If Botch is indeed moving from CA to NY, he's moving from one Police state to another. If it's NYC, as was mentioned, no AR's, which would be a shame if that's the option he wants.

As far as ballastics, I understand we can debate the relative penetration of 00 Buck vs. 5.56 all day long. But frankly, if an intruder is hit with a shotgun blast, even of 20 gauge #3 buckshot, I'd be hard pressed to believe that 20 .25 caliber lead balls wouldn't atleast make the intruder stop for a moment and reconsider.

Atleast that's what Mike Hammer did in Chapter 12.



You'd be wrong on both counts.  It's established fact that OO buck will overpenetrate building materials to a much greater degree than 5.56.  If you want to argue that, you're welcome to.  The Flat Earth Society meets at 1500 in room 212.

As for shotguns being a more effective/instant stopper than a rifle, You'd Think that would be true...but as with most gut reactions, you'd be incorrect.  If Pat Rogers would waste his time with stupid arguments like this one, he'd tell you about NUMEROUS NYPD shootings where the subject was not very impressed with multiple close-range shotgun hits, with buck and Winchester 12ga slugs.



So, according to you, a shotgun blast of any size or flavor will not fulfill it's intended role in stopping an intruder.

I'm not here to "argue" anything. I wasn't talking about overpentration. I only brought up "00 Buck vs. 5.56" in the context of both being irrelevent SINCE I would have trouble believing that the majority of home invaders would be happy to catch a face full of 20 gauge #3 buckshot.

My "gut reaction" is that you can simply state your case without making stooopid comments like "The Flat Earth Society meets at 1500 in room 212" becasue someone says something you don't like. And I know my gut reaction is right...

EDITED TO ADD: Holy smokes...did you even READ what I posted??? I really can't believe you did.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:03:33 AM EDT
[#43]
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:05:35 AM EDT
[#44]
...and nobody bothered to mention what in NY or CA DA might think about a guy putting a bunch of M193 into a BG from his AR as opposed to one round of 12ga from a sporty little wood-stocked 870...

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:09:04 AM EDT
[#45]
by the way, how, in the name of physics, does something LIGHTER, SOFTER, and SLOWER remain deadlier after wall penetration? Yeah, .223 might yaw, but that's a moot point. I remember someone here doing wall-penetration tests and that's the best they got. not that 12ga was better by far, but this overpenetration this is way overblown. Brick outer wall WILL stop it, if that's how your house is built, if it's all wood, the rounds WILL be outside unless they hit something much denser in between.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:20:07 AM EDT
[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Tactical loads? Any Recommendations? .00 Buck?



I load mine with the first two 00-buck and the rest with slugs.



Yeah, that'll solve his overpenetration concerns...




Who says I am worried about over penetration?

Get off the high horse dude. Any HD firearm shot in my house is not going to get out other than a window.
Where is your your .223 now jackass?


BTW  where does he mention anything about overpenetration cooncerns?




Now for some Good Olde Tyme Arfcom slang...

Good
For
You.

I suggest you refer to Forest's words of wisdom above, and close your cockholster.  You might learn something.



Its good to see someone give up when they know they dont have a leg to stand on. I can understand you being new to the world of firearms and all but let the grown ups get on with this disscussion and go to your room.





Junior, the only thing you're doing is making yourself look like a bigger ass...and I wasn't even sure you could do that.  Run along, now.



What exactly are you trying to prove? Shotguns and handguns are not good for home defense and an AR15 is sooooo much better? Where are you trying to hijack this thread to?

Please do tell.



The poster asked about a rifle for home defense.  You and some other folks offered him some well-intentioned but misguided advice about shotguns.  A couple of people who know what the hell they're talking about tried to steer him in the correct direction, and you showed up and started acting like an asshole.  

Yes, an M4 is better for home defense than a pistol or a shotgun, if it's properly set up.

Are we all clear now?



No you are the one who charged in here like superman and ripped your shirt off to expose the "S" on your chest. Go back and read your posts and tell me thats not how you came off. Thats when I took offence.
Go ahead and re-read it.

See? you came off like a know it all fuck jerk. The readers and posters in this thread deserve an apology from you. Be a man and step up.

I will go first.

Sorry for calling you out on your know it all attitude.



After reading all this, I would have to say that 1776 is the know-it-all jerk.  You are the one who should issue the apology.


agreed......and i wanted to keep this long quote going
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:20:37 AM EDT
[#47]
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:24:03 AM EDT
[#48]

Quoted:
To modify an AR for home defense you would need to conver it to a 12 guage shotgun upper (Read Joke)  223 would be a pretty serious overpenatration danger, unless you got a big ass house.  Sure frangible would fix that.  A winchester Defender or Mossy would be better if your going to do a long gun.  Plus the cocking sound of butting a shotgun in battery is a very unique sound that any criminal will hear loud and clear and most likely turn and run.  remeber the best gun fight is the one that doesnt happen.  Civil court is a bitch.  Typically your now dead assailant comes from a family with little money.  So the slip and fall attorney prods the low income family into a civil suite.  In NY your 50-50 at best.  SAme applaies with the 223 overpenatration.  It would suck to kill an innocent neighbors child spraying .223 all over the place.  Then you get sued for it.  Buy a shotgun and sleep easy.



You have no idea what you are talking about.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:24:08 AM EDT
[#49]


Hasn't this been discussed plenty of times before, and the conclusion was always 5.56 out of an AR is better for HD than a shotgun?

Guys, give it up. QuietShootr and Tatjana are 2 of the more knowlegeable people on this board about this stuff, they know what they are talking about.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:29:19 AM EDT
[#50]

Quoted:

 Something I've noted after taking several Handgun/Rifles classes:
 1.  Rifles, such as AR15, are advocated by most instructors for home defense nowadays.  Sure, AR15 and its ammo, .223  is not perfect in all aspects, but better than some other alternatives.
 2.  Rifles, such as AR15/.223 ammo, incapicitate the bad guy quicker because of the shock from velocity/energy dumping into the body.

 IIRC, there was a FBI data concerning about overpenetration issue, and it turns out that AR15/.223 ammo is more desirable than 9mm or shotgun.  Now, it's not perfect, just more desirable.
 There is one SWAT department in Metroplex area that I know replacing their MP5 with M16 Commando.
 
 My 2 cents...



"shock from velocity/energy dumping into the body." Good point!

Sounds reasonable to me. Well written persuasive post. I may have to keep a couple of AR mags loaded from now on.
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