Are you calling GWB a liar, he said he would sign it. I believe him. You can say he did it to placate the dems or make nice with Sarah B. I don't care. I believe that when the next ban comes up. He will sign it. He didn't kill anything. His mention of it was when he said he would sign it. I trust Kerry and believe his words of 30 years ago when he said GI"s were criminals. I trust GWB to not be a gun owners friend. And hell yes I hate him and every other politician on the face of the earth. How can you not?

Quoted: Are you calling GWB a liar,

I beleive he perpetrated a deception on the enemy, which is a legitimate action during a time of war.

I believe that when the next ban comes up. He will sign it.

Again, it is ILLEGITIMATE to hold him to blame for what you BELEIVE he will do.


I beleive you will cheat on your taxes at some point in the future, either not declaring income or exaggerating expenses. Should we go ahead and convict and jail you today??

He didn't kill anything.

You live in  fantasy world. The facts don't support you.

And hell yes I hate him and every other politician on the face of the earth. How can you not?

ALL of them? Is that due to their actions / charachter, or simply due to the fact they are in a position of authority??? Stated another way, are you an anarchist and against all forms of gov't??

Quoted: Quoted: I have never been able to understand the mindset that allows a person to be undecided in an election.  In every election that I have ever voted in I know as soon as the candidates are announced who I will be voting for in primaries, and I sure as hell know that I will vote party line in the general.  Who are these people?  How can you not know what it is you want from elected officials? I have never understood folks that just vote party line - I think they are mostly people who see beign in the right "club" (Dem or Rep) as more important than voting for the right guy.

Show me one person from the dems who is worth voting for and I would vote for them.  I don't vote party line because I want to be in the right club.  I want people to win who best reflect what I want done and who actually have a chance of winning.  I am not going to waste my vote by making some stupid stand and voting for a candidate, who my want all the same things I want, who does not have a chance in hell of winning, and we end up with dems in office.  And the truth be told I have been known to vote for Libertarians in local elections.

Then based on your argument, it is illigitimate to hold Kerry responsible for what he might do. That does not wash.
I specifically hate everyone of the US politicians because they have a duty to follow the constitution and they can't and won't. It is that simple. Ron Paul is the best. I do not have some ill-defined hatred of authority. I have a distinct lack of respect and dislike for people that are in power over me and continually try to screw me at every opportunity. Do you want to go back and ask the revolutionaries if they had a hatred for authority or were just tired of "King George" taking their money? That is the frikken question. When a 13 time national match champion and Olympic alternate is in jail for possesion of guns we have gone too far.

If it were anybody but Kerry, I'd be a proponant of throwing this election to bring a better, stronger GOP candidate in 08.

Quoted: Then based on your argument, it is illigitimate to hold Kerry responsible for what he might do. That does not wash.

OF COURSE it does. I have NEVER blamed Kerry for what he MIGHT do. What he HAS done is damning enuf.

What HAS Bush DONE??? He killed the AWB. And I give him credit for it.

This is known as "consistent logic."

I specifically hate everyone of the US politicians because they have a duty to follow the constitution and they can't and won't. It is that simple. Ron Paul is the best. I do not have some ill-defined hatred of authority. I have a distinct lack of respect and dislike for people that are in power over me and continually try to screw me at every opportunity. Do you want to go back and ask the revolutionaries if they had a hatred for authority or were just tired of "King George" taking their money? That is the frikken question. When a 13 time national match champion and Olympic alternate is in jail for possesion of guns we have gone too far.

Yes, we have a gov't out of control. But to HATE nearly every single politician cuz they haven't gotten it under control yet is irrational.

Its the Conservatives disease - turning down the victory you CAN get, for the victory you'll NEVER get.

This return to Constitutional gov't is to be won incrementally. And you MUST give credit to pols who do something right IF you want them to do something more right for ytou.

Is this what Amerika has become? The revolutionary War was fought over taxes of 10%. Now we are happy that they lube before they ass rape us? I don't have to lick his hand when he throws me a dog biscuit. This incrementalism crap is just a party line so that they stay in power. What do you honestly think would happen in the election if GWB said that He was going to DC and fix some crap and just ignored the campaign from today until Nov. If he abolished the Irs and instituted a 10% flat tax, removed all federal gun laws on possesion, took 10.00 troops from Germany and put them on the mexican border, told all illegals aliens to leave or else, instituted real security checks at the airports, Told Saudi Arabia to shut the fuck up and no you don't get a check this week, told congress to spend the next session cleaning up and removing stupid frikken laws on the federal register, told the 9/11 survivors that whoever bought him the head of Bin laden would get 1 billion dollars, stop charging 70% tax on every gallon of gas, and most of all told american companies that the government would pay for any new factories inside the 50 states.
Don't you agree with me that this would cause a landslide from the people? Or do you think that wrestlin with a pig is going to win him this election.
This is IT man, if the party can't find something to give us other than vague promises and excuses then it deserves to die. Unfortunately then we have to deal with Kerry and his ilk.

Quoted: Quoted: Poll coming. I'm still undecided. Living in South Carolina, I  ***MAY*** have the luxury of sending a protest vote to George Bush. NO WAY I'm voting for Kerry. Maybe Bush, but very possibly Constitution Party. In PA, I do not have this luxury for the presidential election.  Go Bush. For Senate, I have my choice of a way-leftie upstart congresscreature (Joe Hoeffel, who was/is my congressman ), or an almost-as-way-leftie RINO who will probably be a lame duck after this election and therefore free to do as he pleases (Arlen Specter).  Third party may be my only option for Senate.

3rd party for SENATE is almost as bad as 3rd party for PRESIDENT...

The #1 issue after the war is GOP control of the Senate, and the end to Dem filibusters...

It doesn't matter if he's a RINO or not, as long as he votes for Frist & Co when it comes time to choose the leadership...

Quoted: Don't you agree with me that this would cause a landslide from the people? .

I do think this would cause a landslide victory for Bush - IF all the angry Conservatives and people disgusted with politics would vote for him.

I also think I could become a millionaire if I would just chuck my current job, and start my own busniess.

But then, there is the possibility that I'm wrong. And the stakes are ALOT higher for the nation should Bush "go off" in the manner you describe.

I also beleive he would be assassinated if he did what you suggest.

Quoted: Gman, Mexico, why are you puzzled? Vicente is pumping people across the border and getting money in return. Social security is being paid to mexicans I do not ever want to hear, what the dems would do in a situation. Over 3,000 people have already died on that altar. That was enough. The people would re-elect GW in a landslide if he closed the borders and got all of the illegals out of the country. They would also re-elect him in droves if he gave everyone their very own personal money-tree. Both are just as realistic/possible. You CANNOT secure the amout of border-land we have now, ever. So forget the pipe-dream and focus on punishing Americans for employing/aiding illegals Aid. I think he should do something and he is sending billions to Africa. Stance on guns is NOT constitutional What's wrong with 'The 2nd Ammendment is an individual right? Bush has been nothing bot pro-gun in his actions, including killing the AWB (you may not WANT to believe this, but GWB controlls the House & Senate GOP leadership. The bill went nowhere because he didn't want it to We can get oil elsewhere. But right now, it comes from Saudi, and that's beside the point anyway. The House of Saud, corrupt as they are, is better than Bin Ladin as Caliph of Arabia or whatever OGL...find him kill him. simple. Simple, eh? 25 million dollars up for grabs, and all the best operators, assassins, and such in the world can't find and kill Bin Laden... Real simple, ya... I don't blame him for putting a slime ball on our payroll for years. And then fighting with the Muslims against the christians in Bosnia. That was someone else. (/11 commision. He should have investigated this event until we knew every rat that had ever lived in an apartment with a terrorist. Instead he did shit until the opposition forced him to wear that albatross. Which turned out nothing but shit and fluffy recommendations. There wasn't that much to 'investigate' - an attack happened, AQ did it, and our intel guys didn't have the funding/authorization (thanks to prior administrations protecting 'civil liberties' that do not, in fact, exist) to stop it - any highschool government class would come to the same conclusion. When responsible changes (PATRIOT) were made, people howled about losing rights they never had, or didn't actually lose (happy, tcsd?)...

Between being extremely disappointed/disillusioned with Bush, knowing that Kerry will win Washington anyhow, and the way the Democrat and Republican parties have banded together to purposely fuck up Washington's voting system to deny us the right vote across party lines for candidates I think would best reflect my views, I'm seriously beginning to wonder if it's worth even voting at all.

Quoted: Are you calling GWB a liar, he said he would sign it. I believe him. You can say he did it to placate the dems or make nice with Sarah B. I don't care. I believe that when the next ban comes up. He will sign it. He didn't kill anything. His mention of it was when he said he would sign it. I trust Kerry and believe his words of 30 years ago when he said GI"s were criminals. I trust GWB to not be a gun owners friend. And hell yes I hate him and every other politician on the face of the earth. How can you not?

Because no 'next ban' will come up...

Just like no renewal came up this year after PLCA.

Wake up, the sky's not falling, we won this time...

The ban is GONE, OVER, DONE.

They will be looking for some new wedge-issue, just like they allways have (where are the handgun bans, waiting periods, and all the other crap that they were pushing (gone, except in the states where they got passed)... Have you heard anything about ballistic fingerprinting since the MD shootings?)...

Dave, why does passing the patriot act which mostly effects citizens, help in the fight of stopping another 14 men that were illegally in this country from doing the same thing? I guess we couldn't do the simple thing and just make the illegals leave? eh? Same crap different frequency.....no more excuses.
can not secure the border? tell that to the russians they thought we did pretty good.
2nd GW said he would sign it. That is the bottom line, you can fluff and say it didn't happen or it happened because. it doesn't matter he said it.
Oil--Russia is somewhere like 12th on the list, I think we could replace SA.
OBL another frikken excuse. Then come out and say what the hell we are doing and don't ever come on TV and tell me about the fight for the poor people of Iraq.
Investigation...are you out of your mind. someone somewhere knows that we can be done this way. I think we need to find the people that gave them money and training and bury them. Or do you just want to continue saying it can't happen again?


GMAN-you may be right and that is even scarier. Not that you are right but that somebody would put a bullet in his direction.

Quoted: GMAN-you may be right and that is even scarier. Not that you are right but that somebody would put a bullet in his direction.

So why not CUT THE MAN SOME SLACK???????

I don't see you risking YOUR life for your principles.

I am sorry, I am not the one with 12 men with guns near me all the time, I am not the commander of the best armed force on the face of the earth. I am the one that has to avoid all of his tax agents with guns. Do we get that now? He is the one with the money and the power that is acting like JFK is actually a threat to his administration. He could do one thing and John john would melt like the wicked witch....kill theIRS.

I am voting for George W. Bush.

Quoted: He could do one thing and John john would melt like the wicked witch....kill theIRS.

As with SA oil....as with OBL....as with the 9-11 Commission.....AGAIN you over simplify.

Sure he could and should kill the progressive income tax. But running a country and a war REQUIRES money. Killing the IRS would choke off the money supply, which would jeopradize cash flow and likely throw the country into a full depression.

Besides, he is NOT a king. He can't do that  by fiat. He can't just issue an exectuive order, or you'd bash him for circumventing the Constitution by going over the heads of the legislature.

He just can't win with you.

Which is what CONVINCES me even if he did the things you asked above (which I suggested would get him assasinated)  you STILL would not vote for him.

I just read you as a malcontent happier to be criticizing someone that to actually have your grievances addressed.

I don't want Kerry to win, but I don't want GWB to continue enlarging the .gov

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How can you not know what it is you want from elected officials? I know what I want. I don't know if George Bush is the man to make it  happen. I know from his lack of veto that he is not the man to make it happen for me, but in reality a vote for anybody but Bush is a vote for kerry.  Bush has done the war mostly right, and kerry will fuck everything up.  That is the most important issue right now. I agree. If it were not for the war, then I would be voting 3rd party. I would never under any circumstances consider voting for a Democrat.

Even if it was JFK or Zell Miller?

What in the holy hell is wrong with you people. I have voted republican my entire life. I can't stand the dems, I even go out of my way in my personal life to stay the hell away from them. Amd yet you all want to calll me bush basher and make up shit. Get this straight, the frikken party is dying because it is becoming more democrat every year. If you guy can't stand up and do something, then he is going away. Got that?

And do you actually believe that taxation has anything to do with the government spending money? They print the stuff.
And if he can create an entire NEW government body, KGB, then he can certainly kill one.

Have you lost you mind man? Is there any other option besides BUSH?

I don't see any other trustworthy God fearing conservative Republican on the ticket.

Quoted: What in the holy hell is wrong with you people. I have voted republican my entire life. I can't stand the dems, I even go out of my way in my personal life to stay the hell away from them. Amd yet you all want to calll me bush basher and make up shit. Get this straight, the frikken party is dying because it is becoming more democrat every year. If you guy can't stand up and do something, then he is going away. Got that? And do you actually believe that taxation has anything to do with the government spending money? They print the stuff. And if he can create an entire NEW government body, KGB, then he can certainly kill one.

GWB is the defacto leader of the GOP.

The GOP is deeply split in many geographic areas. So much so, that many conservatives are either bailing out, or protest voting.

We have to work to fix the problems which have caused the splits. While that may end back at the top, it starts locally within your central committee.

Quoted: What SPECIFICALY makes him a socialist, or an idiot.  Give us a specific thing that he has done or not done that would cause you to not support him?

This administration has had the largest increase in discretionary spending since FDR gave us our lovely "New Deal".

Quoted: Again, it is ILLEGITIMATE to hold him to blame for what you BELEIVE he will do.

WHAAAAT?!!??!!!!

I BELIEVE Kerry will trample all over my rights if he's elected, its the primary reason I'm voting for Bush.  Had the Democrats chosen another person (Like Clarke) I would be voting against Bush because of what I BELIEVE Bush will do to screw me over in his next 4 years.

Pretty much everyone is voting based on what they BELIEVE the candidates will do over the next 4 years.

Quoted: Quoted: Again, it is ILLEGITIMATE to hold him to blame for what you BELEIVE he will do. WHAAAAT?!!??!!!! I BELIEVE Kerry will trample all over my rights if he's elected, its the primary reason I'm voting for Bush.  Had the Democrats chosen another person (Like Clarke) I would be voting against Bush because of what I BELIEVE Bush will do to screw me over in his next 4 years. Pretty much everyone is voting based on what they BELIEVE the candidates will do over the next 4 years.

Yer missing the point.

Hound was bashing Bush saying he WOULD renew the AWB if re-elected DESPITE the fact that Bush  KILLED the AWB in THIS term.

And we aren't blaming Bush / Kerry for things not yet done. We are saying based on their PAST actions, we don't find them reliable for the future.

There's a differnce.

this may be one of the most important elections in our lifetime.  the consequences may effect our childrens, children.  i will not vote for a radical liberal, anti-military, gay loving, gun-grabbing jerkoff mother fuc*er...

i'll take bush for one more term...

Quoted: Between being extremely disappointed/disillusioned with Bush, knowing that Kerry will win Washington anyhow

No, he won't.  Unless too many people have your defeatist attitude.

Quoted: Dave, why does passing the patriot act which mostly effects citizens

Except that it doesn't.

Quoted: I am not the commander of the best armed force on the face of the earth.

For which I get down on my knees and thank God every night.

Quoted: The GOP is deeply split in many geographic areas. So much so, that many conservatives are either bailing out, or protest voting.

No, actually they aren't.  That's simply another of your many lies.

Oh actually they are....  You really don't want to engage in THIS specific argument with me because I have no less than 50 articles from around Ohio, the Midwest, and nationally that the GOP is engaged in serious infighting and trouble. Shit, I even posted the whole Fairfield County Central Committe coup on here back during primary season.

Here's a recent one.... you really need to understand WHY everyone is referring to Ohio as a battleground state, and WHY this state may indeed decide who your next president is.

www.ofccpac.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=595

DDN: Sounds of bickering rumble Republican paradise

By William Hershey
[email protected]

COLUMBUS | There’s trouble in paradise.

Paradise, of course, is where you find it.

Republicans have found it here in Columbus since 1994. That’s the year they took control of both Ohio House and Senate and every statewide nonjudicial office.

Democrats have scrambled for crumbs since then.

With all that power on their hands, Republicans have taken to squabbling among themselves.

Lots of Republicans in the legislature never had much use for Gov. Bob Taft, even if he is the grandson of the U.S. senator known as "Mr. Republican," the late Robert A. Taft.

The hard-charging conservatives consider him a closet moderate and too willing to see too many sides of an issue, even if it’s a complicated one.

During this year’s budget marathon, Republican legislators ignored most of Taft’s ideas for tax reform. Instead, they gave him a take-it-or-leave-it proposed penny-on-the-dollar increase on the state sales tax to balance the state budget.

Taft took it, but continued to irritate Republican lawmakers on proposed legislation giving Ohioans the right to carry concealed handguns.

Click on the "Read More..." link below for more.



House Republicans considered the Senate-passed bill that Taft endorsed worse than no bill at all. It included too many restrictions, they said, and didn’t even get the endorsement of the National Rifle Association, which probably has more clout in the legislature than the Democrats.

House Speaker Larry Householder, R-Glenford, using reporters as couriers, sent nasty messages to Senate President Doug White, R-Manchester.

The Senate, said Householder, turned its lawmaking authority in the concealed handgun dustup over to Taft and Taft’s buddies in the Ohio Highway Patrol. Taft’s support for the Senate bill resulted mainly from the state patrol’s decision to stay neutral on the Senate bill, after opposing the House version.

The Senate president said he’d done no such thing.

One longtime Republican strategist, who declined to be identified, said many Republicans in the legislature don’t know what it’s like to participate in a competitive two-party system.

They think the current Republican dominance is somehow predestined and will go on forever, the strategist said. He suggested that they believe no matter how many goofy things they do or no matter how often they let selfish spats get in the way of public policy, there will be no consequences.

The Democrats, still busy looking for the crumbs, so far haven’t given them much reason to think otherwise. Paradise, however, is turning into a tough neighborhood.

Quoted: I can't vote for Kerry...and my Commander in Chief has made it very hard for me to vote for him.  I have voted for "the lesser of two evils" my whole voting life.....and things have still gotten worse. Maybe I'll write in Alan Keyes.

I'd vote for Alan Keyes.  But, I'm voting for W.  I understand about making a "statement", but if you vote third party nobody else knows why.  A third party vote only says that you're disgruntled with the two party system.  The Republican and Democrat politicians look at the third party vote and shrug their shoulders.  "Who cares?"  IOW they don't know if those votes came from conservative voters unhappy with W or liberal voters unhappy with sKerry.  I'm voting for W not because I like him, but because I haven't given up on the Grand Old Party just yet.  In the meantime I'm writing letters to make my voice heard on the issues where I think W is off track.  I'm definately voting for DeMint!

-YJ

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Again, it is ILLEGITIMATE to hold him to blame for what you BELEIVE he will do. WHAAAAT?!!??!!!! I BELIEVE Kerry will trample all over my rights if he's elected, its the primary reason I'm voting for Bush.  Had the Democrats chosen another person (Like Clarke) I would be voting against Bush because of what I BELIEVE Bush will do to screw me over in his next 4 years. Pretty much everyone is voting based on what they BELIEVE the candidates will do over the next 4 years. Yer missing the point. Hound was bashing Bush saying he WOULD renew the AWB if re-elected DESPITE the fact that Bush  KILLED the AWB in THIS term. And we aren't blaming Bush / Kerry for things not yet done. We are saying based on their PAST actions, we don't find them reliable for the future. There's a differnce.

There is also a big difference between allowing something to die quietly while talking out of the side of your mouth and making a clear commitment to defeating the ban renewal.    You may be sure he won't sign the next ban, but I am not.

If he does he is an honest man who is not as pro gun as we thought.  If he does not he is at best a liar who made political promises and did not keep them (much like his father).

I acknowledge the fact that you may be correct that Bush has been orchestrating things behind the scenes to ensure the awb was not renewed.  Of course the tin foil wearers may also be correct.  I go on what is provable, not supposition.  

To use military terms, at best  he gets "not observed" on his fitrep when it comes to the AWB.

Quoted: Quoted: I have never understood folks that just vote party line - I think they are mostly people who see beign in the right "club" (Dem or Rep) as more important than voting for the right guy. Show me one person from the dems who is worth voting for and I would vote for them.  I don't vote party line because I want to be in the right club.  I want people to win who best reflect what I want done and who actually have a chance of winning.  I am not going to waste my vote by making some stupid stand and voting for a candidate, who my want all the same things I want, who does not have a chance in hell of winning, and we end up with dems in office.  And the truth be told I have been known to vote for Libertarians in local elections.

+1 for wedge's argument

Quoted: Oh actually they are....

No, actually they aren't.  

Quoted: And do you actually believe that taxation has anything to do with the government spending money? They print the stuff.

You don't seriously believe that the gov can print the money they spend?

-YJ

Quoted: Quoted: And do you actually believe that taxation has anything to do with the government spending money? They print the stuff. You don't seriously believe that the gov can print the money they spend? -YJ

You don't know hound very well.  That's about the MOST plausible thing he believes.

Quoted: Quoted: Oh actually they are....   No, actually they aren't.

Okay. You clearly cannot read.

Quoted: Quoted: Between being extremely disappointed/disillusioned with Bush, knowing that Kerry will win Washington anyhow No, he won't.  Unless too many people have your defeatist attitude.

Yes, he likely will. And I think I'm a little more familiar with the history, demographics, and political intricacies of Washington state. Do any of my fellow ARFcom Washingtonians disagree?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Oh actually they are....   No, actually they aren't.   Okay. You clearly cannot read.

No, I clearly 1) don't believe your source and 2)even if the source is based on actual information, polls of likely voters don't show conservatives deserting President Bush.  You're simply wrong, as usual.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Between being extremely disappointed/disillusioned with Bush, knowing that Kerry will win Washington anyhow No, he won't.  Unless too many people have your defeatist attitude. Yes, he likely will. And I think I'm a little more familiar with the history, demographics, and political intricacies of Washington state. Do any of my fellow ARFcom Washingtonians disagree?

My bad, I thought you were speaking of winning Washington DC, as in the White House.  Although I don't believe Kerry will win Washington State either.

It comes down to do you want a Liberal or Conservative Statist. I take the conservative one, which is George W Bush. The ultimate demise of the USA will be the same, but it will take longer for the Republicans to move further to the left.

I am voting for Bush.


W in 04, Four More Years

Talk about throwing away votes:  All those who have 'voting for the lesser of two evils'as a political philosophy--JUST VOTED FOR EVIL!!

That's throwing away a vote!!!

Quoted: It comes down to do you want a Liberal or Conservative Statist. I take the conservative one, which is George W Bush. The ultimate demise of the USA will be the same, but it will take longer for the Republicans to move further to the left. I am voting for Bush. W in 04, Four More Years

This whole Left/Right diatribe is CRAP!!  BOTH parties are puppets flushing our liberties down the toilet.

I'll vote for Bush.  Kerry is just ridiculous and there is no way this country could survive with a President like him.  I've never heard more double-talk, back tracking and flip-flopping come out of one person before.

I know who i choose to vote  for and its no bodys buisness.

But I will say its not Kerry.

Quoted: Talk about throwing away votes:  All those who have 'voting for the lesser of two evils'as a political philosophy--JUST VOTED FOR EVIL!! That's throwing away a vote!!!

Except that President Bush isn't evil, so the whole "lesser of two evils" thing is just bullshit anyway.

Quoted: There is also a big difference between allowing something to die quietly while talking out of the side of your mouth and making a clear commitment to defeating the ban renewal.

Dead is DEAD.

STUPID conservatives always have to have the right color ribbon (i.e. rhetoric) on their legislation.

I DON'T CARE how my gun rights are restored. STUPID Conservatives would rather have Bush say the right stuff and STILL have the ban in effect.

Quoted: Quoted: There is also a big difference between allowing something to die quietly while talking out of the side of your mouth and making a clear commitment to defeating the ban renewal.     Dead is DEAD. STUPID conservatives always have to have the right color ribbon (i.e. rhetoric) on their legislation. I DON'T CARE how my gun rights are restored. STUPID Conservatives would rather have Bush say the right stuff and STILL have the ban in effect.

Your premise has been that Bush did not come out publicly because he did not need to to defeat the renewal.  He could work behind the scenes in a republican dominated congress.   It was a ruse de guerre to fool the liberals into thinking he was with them.  

How do you get from not needing to state his true opinion to if he had stated his true opinion, the ban would have been renewed?

You really can't have it both ways.

IMO the stupid conservatives are the ones who are actually happy a sitting president lied to his constituents...

I remain undecided between Bush & not voting for anyone for president. Definately will not vote for Kerry. Might vote for Nader just to keep him around to bother the Democrats every four years.