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Posted: 11/27/2022 9:57:48 PM EDT
[#1]
Yamato and it isn't even close
The Bismarck was a very mediocre battleship for its generation. The Yamato and Iowa classes both would have wiped the floor with it. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:08:28 PM EDT
[#2]
18.1>15
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:09:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: No rules. No support. Middle of any ocean you wish. Discuss. Yamato, and it’s not close. Bismarck was an evolutionary improvement over previous designs. It was a product improved WW1 style warship. Yamato was a modern warship however, with the modern goodies to go with it. The big difference maker is the fire control system and armor plating. Some of Yamato’s armor probably would have been resistant (not impervious) to Bismarck’s 15 inch shells. Bismarcks armor would be soundly defeated by Yamato’s 18 inch shells. Yamato’s fire control systems weren’t as good as American or British systems but they were better than Bismarck’s. Yamato had better radar and better optics for targeting. Yamato would almost certainly be able to lay down effective fire from ranges beyond what Bismarck could. Bismarck’s only clear advantage is in speed. It probably won’t matter, but even if Bismarck used that speed to close, I wouldn’t expect a close quarters fight to go well for Bismarck. Bismarck did have a larger secondary battery but, like it’s speed, it’s not going to matter. Yamato due to superior targeting and superior firepower. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:09:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: “Only protected against 14” shellfire” isn’t entirely accurate. The 14” guns originally planned formed the design basis for their armor protection, but that doesn’t mean it was useless against larger calibers. Armor protection on a warship is not a binary equation. It’s all about probabilities. I did a comparison of North Carolina and Bismarck a few years back using data from NAVWEAPS and concluded that each could penetrate the other’s belt from about the same range. Bismarck’s heavier armor is offset by North Carolina’s bigger guns. North Carolina had better fire control even before Mk8 radar became available and a significant advantage in range/endurance. North Carolina also had a vastly superior AA battery and cost significantly less to build, assuming displacement is roughly proportional to cost. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As a native of North Dakota, thank you for a battleship class. I agree with your first two rankings. I’ve never been able to decide on the North Carolinas. Great main armament, only protected against 14” shellfire. I’ll still rank them number three. Especially if Willis A. Lee is onboard USS Washington. “Only protected against 14” shellfire” isn’t entirely accurate. The 14” guns originally planned formed the design basis for their armor protection, but that doesn’t mean it was useless against larger calibers. Armor protection on a warship is not a binary equation. It’s all about probabilities. I did a comparison of North Carolina and Bismarck a few years back using data from NAVWEAPS and concluded that each could penetrate the other’s belt from about the same range. Bismarck’s heavier armor is offset by North Carolina’s bigger guns. North Carolina had better fire control even before Mk8 radar became available and a significant advantage in range/endurance. North Carolina also had a vastly superior AA battery and cost significantly less to build, assuming displacement is roughly proportional to cost. Jane’s has the North Carolinas at just under $77,000,000 South Dakotas $77,000,000 Iowas $100,000,000 Bismarck’s cost isn’t listed. I think Bismarck could get three salvos per minute. I think our 16” were two per minute. Not certain how sustainable either rate is. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:11:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hell ya. Better FCS and such. Guns could be adjustest faster..... I bet the Iowas shit on the Yamato. Iowa would run over Bismarck without breaking a sweat. Yamato would dicier but I personally think superior fire control systems and the ability to get first salvo hits would win the day for Iowa. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:12:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At range or in inclement weather/night no doubt. In a very unrealistic scenario where a brain dead Iowa captain lets a Yamato close within LOS it may get interesting.  |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:14:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: At range or in inclement weather/night no doubt. In a very unrealistic scenario where a brain dead Iowa captain lets a Yamato close within LOS it may get interesting. Give me Ching Lee. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:15:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While I am by no means an expert on, or even have any experience with, naval gunnery, my experience with small arms would suggest that if BB X is firing on BB Y, while both are capable of and are moving, it would be far harder for X to reliably hit Y than if Y was essentially stationary and X is still maneuvering. While I can see that Y might also have an easier time scoring hits, only having to worry about X's movement and not its own, X can still see that Y has fired and try to move unpredictably prior to the arrival of Y's shells. And that's ignoring any potential of loss of power to turret traverse/elevation due to running out of fuel. What you wrote is hard for me to follow, the Browns won and I'm a little drunk, BUT Yamato had more guns than Bismark and each were bigger and had more range than Bismark's guns. Even if Yamato was stationary the Bismark, if its task was to kill Yamato, would have to put itself within Yamato's gun range before it (Bismark) could even hope to hit Yamato. I don't see how Bismark could possibly win such a contest. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:15:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ever since I read about the naval battles at the Philippines I wish Halsey had turned the Alabama (saw it as a kid and thought it was the coolest thing ever) around to guard the Samar strait. I sort of think with superior US radar and ranging the Bama might have wrecked the Yamato. I don't think the Bismark would have faired nearly as well, just not in the same class. Halsey's flag was flying from New Jersey, not Alabama. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:16:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He a member here? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @Drachinifel He a member here? That would be so dope. I think he'd eventually have the highest post count on the site and find the character limit for a single post. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:20:02 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yamato, not even close. Oh, in a battleship duel there's always that chance for a lucky shot taking out critical equipment, but nine times out of ten the Yamato comes out on top. It has heavier armor. It has more guns It's guns are far heavier. I'm going to assume that fire control was about equal. I see no reason to think that the Germans were significantly ahead of the Japanese in this regards. Speed goes to the Bismarck, but barely. The fire control was not equal. Japan’s FCS was better, and the gap wasn’t trivial. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:21:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree with your first two rankings. I’ve never been able to decide on the North Carolinas. Great main armament, only protected against 14” shellfire. I’ll still rank them number three. Especially if Willis A. Lee is onboard USS Washington. Ching Lee was the greatest battleship gunnery officer ever. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:23:51 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ching Lee was the greatest battleship gunnery officer ever. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I agree with your first two rankings. I’ve never been able to decide on the North Carolinas. Great main armament, only protected against 14” shellfire. I’ll still rank them number three. Especially if Willis A. Lee is onboard USS Washington. Ching Lee was the greatest battleship gunnery officer ever. Probably the only thing upon which all of ARFCOM can agree. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:31:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yamato's fire control systems weren't as good as American or British systems but they were better than Bismarck's. Yamato had better radar and better optics for targeting. Yamato would almost certainly be able to lay down effective fire from ranges beyond what Bismarck could. Yamato wasn't capable of a blind radar-directed fire, Bismarck was. Huge advantage, especially at night. I'd say Bismarck without question, especially with KM officers vs IJN officers. The IJN leadership was dogshit. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:40:47 PM EDT
[#15]
Taffy 3
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:44:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably the only thing upon which all of ARFCOM can agree. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I agree with your first two rankings. I’ve never been able to decide on the North Carolinas. Great main armament, only protected against 14” shellfire. I’ll still rank them number three. Especially if Willis A. Lee is onboard USS Washington. Ching Lee was the greatest battleship gunnery officer ever. Probably the only thing upon which all of ARFCOM can agree.  Admiral Willis 'Ching' Lee - The Ultimate Sharpshooter |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:47:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryAnd a Drachinifel video as evidence. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:53:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Here is a great video showing the mechanics of a US Navy WW2 mechanical fire control computer.
 U.S. NAVY BASIC MECHANISMS OF FIRE CONTROL COMPUTERS MECHANICAL COMPUTER INSTRUCTIONAL FILM 27794 |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 10:57:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Here is another video that has both parts.
 1953 US Navy Film: Basic Mechanisms In Fire Control Computers |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:02:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a historical site. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All of a sudden I was 12 again. Was that a geocities or angelfire site? It's a historical site. That's what I'm saying |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:05:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm the biggest Bismarck Fan whore. My GSD is even named Bismarck. The Yamato would wreck the Bismarck. Really??!! Why? |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:09:13 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That would be so dope. I think he'd eventually have the highest post count on the site and find the character limit for a single post. That dude is an absolute Rain Man when it comes to naval warfare. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:15:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yamato wasn't capable of a blind radar-directed fire, Bismarck was. Huge advantage, especially at night. I'd say Bismarck without question, especially with KM officers vs IJN officers. The IJN leadership was dogshit. Yes because the Japanese never trounced radar equipped squadrons in night engagements. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:23:39 PM EDT
[#24]
haven't seen a bruce lee vs mike tyson thread in a while, but here we are.
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:25:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yamato, and it’s not close. Bismarck was an evolutionary improvement over previous designs. It was a product improved WW1 style warship. Yamato was a modern warship however, with the modern goodies to go with it. The big difference maker is the fire control system and armor plating. Some of Yamato’s armor probably would have been resistant (not impervious) to Bismarck’s 15 inch shells. Bismarcks armor would be soundly defeated by Yamato’s 18 inch shells. Yamato’s fire control systems weren’t as good as American or British systems but they were better than Bismarck’s. Yamato had better radar and better optics for targeting. Yamato would almost certainly be able to lay down effective fire from ranges beyond what Bismarck could. Bismarck’s only clear advantage is in speed. It probably won’t matter, but even if Bismarck used that speed to close, I wouldn’t expect a close quarters fight to go well for Bismarck. Bismarck did have a larger secondary battery but, like it’s speed, it’s not going to matter. Yamato due to superior targeting and superior firepower. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No rules. No support. Middle of any ocean you wish. Discuss. Yamato, and it’s not close. Bismarck was an evolutionary improvement over previous designs. It was a product improved WW1 style warship. Yamato was a modern warship however, with the modern goodies to go with it. The big difference maker is the fire control system and armor plating. Some of Yamato’s armor probably would have been resistant (not impervious) to Bismarck’s 15 inch shells. Bismarcks armor would be soundly defeated by Yamato’s 18 inch shells. Yamato’s fire control systems weren’t as good as American or British systems but they were better than Bismarck’s. Yamato had better radar and better optics for targeting. Yamato would almost certainly be able to lay down effective fire from ranges beyond what Bismarck could. Bismarck’s only clear advantage is in speed. It probably won’t matter, but even if Bismarck used that speed to close, I wouldn’t expect a close quarters fight to go well for Bismarck. Bismarck did have a larger secondary battery but, like it’s speed, it’s not going to matter. Yamato due to superior targeting and superior firepower. I am interested in your sources for the quality of Yamato’s fire contains radar. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:28:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How good was Japanese gunnery? Just because you have a bigger gun does not mean squat if you can’t hit what you’re aiming at. 95% of the shooting range qualifies this. Look up what the IJN did to the US Navy in gunnery duels in the first part of WWII. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:41:16 PM EDT
[#27]
In a Meeting Engagement(?) on the open sea? Yamato eats Bismark's lunch.
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:42:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yamato wasn't capable of a blind radar-directed fire, Bismarck was. I don’t believe this is correct. Bismarck’s fire control radar was 82cm wavelength. You need 10cm wavelength for blind fire / training guns. Bismarck’s FCS was properly understood to be radar assisted, not radar directed. Same for Yamato. Both relied on optical targeting. Many consider Yamato’s optics to have been the best in the world at that time. My money is on Japan. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:44:23 PM EDT
[#29]
DD cup Anime girl will win over C cup German pole dancer!
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:45:50 PM EDT
[#30]
Seems to me a hand full of DD's and DE's stood the Yamato down
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Posted: 11/27/2022 11:55:13 PM EDT
[#31]
Yamato
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Posted: 11/28/2022 12:00:33 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would probably rate KGV higher than Bismarck. She was well armored compared to her contemporaries and her guns were good enough, as seen from the action against Bismarck herself. Bismarck was really a dated, inefficient design. She weighed significantly more than North Carolina with no functional advantage to show for it. |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 12:08:58 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Iirc correctly that was a point of contention that im surprised hasnt come up. The plate was from the IJN Shinano, a repurposed yamato hull converted into a carrier. The piece was from her heaviest plate-- a turret mount. Im borrowing from the usn report, but metullurgy says it was on par with ww1 heavy plate with cooling defects. It was still massive, however. The pictured strike was fired at zero degrees orientation, though it is thought that the same strike at 45 degrees as the turret was constructed would only damage, not pen. Im not debating yes or no, because there are a lot of what-ifs. I would probably agree the rest of the ship would be mission ineffective long before those turrets got penetrated from ranged fire. The shot was fired normal to the plate to simulate a strike from a plunging shell fired at max range, which would be falling at a 45 degree angle which would have put it perpendicular, or nearly so, to the turret face. |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 12:16:33 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm the biggest Bismarck Fan whore. My GSD is even named Bismarck. The Yamato would wreck the Bismarck. I'm a n00b, but interested. The Yamato was bigger, had more armor, and had larger diameter rounds. However, the Bismarck was faster, and had a longer effective firing range (or so I read). Wouldn't an intelligent captain of the Bismarck be able to shell the Yamato until the stores ran dry, all the while staying more or less out of the Yamato's firing range? That's assuming 1-on-1, which may not be realistic, ignoring crew, etc.. |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 12:24:49 AM EDT
[#35]
might as well discuss the biggest square rigged 100 gun british ship of the the line vs the biggest french ship of the line in a 1 on 1.
is interesting reading about the launch of the yamato and the sister ship musahsi. huge battleships with 18 inch guns designed to fight a world war I decisive battle that the japanese assumed how sea battles would be fought. all eclipsed and sunk by planes from aircraft carriers and torpedoes from submarines. next war, he aircraft carrier will replace the battleship as the wrong weapons platform for the current war. |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 12:37:07 AM EDT
[#36]
I can't believe it's taken 3 pages for this:
 SABATON - Bismarck (Official Music Video) |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 12:39:45 AM EDT
[#37]
Battleship Texas. Because:
(And this is funny as fuck and the end where he talks about Bismarck and Yamato is gold)  The Fat Electrician Reviews: The USS Texas (The Last Dreadnought) |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 12:46:30 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yamato and its not close |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 12:51:11 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All of a sudden I was 12 again. Was that a geocities or angelfire site? That's what it was. |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 12:52:44 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wanna see what a 16" shell would do to the Yamato? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/145185/26-inch-thick-armor-from-japanese-yamato-2615824.JPG Was that from a 10mm? |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 3:28:06 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jane’s has the North Carolinas at just under $77,000,000 South Dakotas $77,000,000 Iowas $100,000,000 Bismarck’s cost isn’t listed. I think Bismarck could get three salvos per minute. I think our 16” were two per minute. Not certain how sustainable either rate is. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As a native of North Dakota, thank you for a battleship class. I agree with your first two rankings. I’ve never been able to decide on the North Carolinas. Great main armament, only protected against 14” shellfire. I’ll still rank them number three. Especially if Willis A. Lee is onboard USS Washington. “Only protected against 14” shellfire” isn’t entirely accurate. The 14” guns originally planned formed the design basis for their armor protection, but that doesn’t mean it was useless against larger calibers. Armor protection on a warship is not a binary equation. It’s all about probabilities. I did a comparison of North Carolina and Bismarck a few years back using data from NAVWEAPS and concluded that each could penetrate the other’s belt from about the same range. Bismarck’s heavier armor is offset by North Carolina’s bigger guns. North Carolina had better fire control even before Mk8 radar became available and a significant advantage in range/endurance. North Carolina also had a vastly superior AA battery and cost significantly less to build, assuming displacement is roughly proportional to cost. Jane’s has the North Carolinas at just under $77,000,000 South Dakotas $77,000,000 Iowas $100,000,000 Bismarck’s cost isn’t listed. I think Bismarck could get three salvos per minute. I think our 16” were two per minute. Not certain how sustainable either rate is. Bismarck could theoretically get off three salvos per minute. In actual combat against another battleship USS Washington achieved a higher rate of fire per gun than Bismarck. I will acknowledge that Washington was fighting at a shorter range, with a correspondingly shorter time of flight to the target. However, even if that accounts for the difference, it illustrates that real world rate of fire depends on factors beyond the speed of loading the guns. |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 3:41:46 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup; the advantage in armor and firepower is huge. Bismarck was 42k tons, Yamato 71k. Bismarck's heaviest armor was 14 inches on the turrets. Even Yamato's belt was thicker (16 inches, with the turrets at 25". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yamato and its not close Yup; the advantage in armor and firepower is huge. Bismarck was 42k tons, Yamato 71k. Bismarck's heaviest armor was 14 inches on the turrets. Even Yamato's belt was thicker (16 inches, with the turrets at 25". God damn 
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Posted: 11/28/2022 5:47:18 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The shot was fired normal to the plate to simulate a strike from a plunging shell fired at max range, which would be falling at a 45 degree angle which would have put it perpendicular, or nearly so, to the turret face. And thats the other thing. No shot is going in at point blank range to hit the turret at its ideal defliction angle. Some amateur historians seem to think that 45 degrees is a huge deal, but these ships aren't droadsiding at flat tragectory ranges. Of course, studies note that the shot was made under perfect conditions: new barrel, good powder, no weather variable, controlled angle. Like i said, deeply contested. My take is the ship would be dead even if the turrets survived. Hitting the rest of the ship is much more probable anyway. |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 6:57:55 AM EDT
[#44]
The Bismarck did sink the Hood and the Yamato never sank anything, so there is that. |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 7:36:19 AM EDT
[#45]
The Spanish were sure to have beaten the English in 1588 too
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Posted: 11/28/2022 7:53:01 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Bismarck did sink the Hood and the Yamato never sank anything, so there is that. Hood was a battlecruiser, not a battleship. There's a Drach video on his take on why Hood went boom, too. |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 7:57:06 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One shot from the wave motion gun and the Bismarck is dust 
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Posted: 11/28/2022 8:26:38 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems to me a hand full of DD's and DE's stood the Yamato down Let’s be honest. Kurita could have plowed through Taffy 3 and on to Leyte Gulf had he chosen to do so. He lost his nerve after seeing what happened to his cruisers. Which brings up another question. With Kurita in command of Yamato and Lutjens in Bismarck, who runs away first?
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Posted: 11/28/2022 8:34:13 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Halsey's flag was flying from New Jersey, not Alabama. That's not what I meant. Halsey was determined to chase down the Japanese carrier when he should have been guarding the back door to the US fleet at the Philippines. He didn't want to split his force, but he should have left a screening force at those straits at the very least. Alabama would have been a natural choice for that job because she was slower that the fleet carriers and Iowa class ships that made up the bulk of Halsey's task force. |
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Posted: 11/28/2022 9:54:59 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let’s be honest. Kurita could have plowed through Taffy 3 and on to Leyte Gulf had he chosen to do so. He lost his nerve after seeing what happened to his cruisers. Which brings up another question. With Kurita in command of Yamato and Lutjens in Bismarck, who runs away first? Depends on the situation and maybe if we're talking "early war" Kurita or "late war" Kurita, but I can't much imagine Kurita running from the Bismarck. He'd have the advantage in that fight and he'd have known it. He also was no stranger to enemy fire. |
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