This is going to piss some folks off, but I think it is a fair question.  Keep in mind, I have the utmost respect for folks in the military, as long as they have the same respect for mere civilians like myself.

After reading the little thread about the UN, I actually slightly disturbed by some of the military 'gun owners' responses.

Things like "what good is your M1A going to do against a squad of pissed of GIs," or "you won't see me, but you'll have incoming 155mm."  I know this is just talk, but if got into a flame-fest and said "Watch out, or I'll put a .223 between your eyes," HANGFIRE would sue me for making a death threat.[;)]  So tone down the idle threats, I don't care who you work for...

My question is, you took an oath, and if your country decides that gun confiscation is good for the country, what are you going to do???

Note that I'm not asking if you will shoot American civilians, because I assume you would return fire if fired upon, and I also believe that if one chooses to go door to door on gun owners, they will be shot at, so you figure it out.

So the important choice is will you or will you not participate in confiscation if you country orders you to???

Also, how would you feel about UN operations on US soil in such a scenario?  Impartial, pissed off, glad you don't have to do it, etc.?

HKocher,

This topic has come up before.
Armed only with my nomex undies....

I would consider an order of this kind to be an illegal order. Not to mention immoral.
I will not, can not, follow an order of this type.

Oath? Hmmmm. The Ammendment guarintees the right to keep and bear arms. So, any order that violates that Ammendment would be an attack on the Constitution. Which, is what I have sworn to protect, against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic.

A Constitutional law expert would have to tell me which takes precidence, the Constitution, or the "officers appointed over me".

Blue is not my color.
Red, White, and Blue---Yes!

Lew

No, we are not going to take guns away from any Americans.  

The whole reason some of those responses where given was that most "SHTF" don't really understand how the military fights, at first the ROE will not allow us to use out more powerful weapons.  But as we take causalities and we see the ROE not fitting the situation, we start bringing in weapons that those "I will be become a guerrilla fighter" types don't realize will end their life in a heart beat.  The simple fact is that most guerrilla movements lose.

Well said.

Aviator

As a member of the military, I don't see our military disarming any law-abiding American citizens. As people who swore to uphold the Constitution, we would turn our cheeks first if our own hypocrite Government ordered us to go against our own people, before we dishonor ourselves for the purpose we defend this country.

I just got out of the Military and now am a member of the Alaska Air National Guard.  I think that 98% of the people in the military would rip the patches off their BDU's and walk out if such and order was given.  We're here to defend our country, not fight it!

It won't be the GI's that would come for your guns, the government knows that there would be too many "constitution protectors" in there. They would use ATF SWAT teams who are already brainwashed into thinking that you are the enemy of the state. Just like the Nazis, they never used regular military to carry out the dirty work, they had special SS troops who loved their work (like the ATF).
I had the misfortune to work with & train ATF agents and I tell ya they actually believe they are "the shit" and perhaps enjoy their work a little too much.

I read a blurb on a website devoted to SF vets, they had heard more than once that Delta is training for just that scenerio. They will be used for the more stubborn of the noncompliant. This is a unsubstantiated rumor and just food for thought. Dont ask for a link, I cant give the password.

Tippie, Garand that's the type of answer that I want to hear!  

First off, I agree, I don't ever think this will be an issue.  I think we will eventually lose the RKBA, but it will be a slower process and not much fighting will actually occur and folks will just hand in their guns or hide them.

So this is purely hypothetical.

DoorGunner, I hope you are right, however I would guess that there are a fair share of folks (maybe the 2%) that wouldn't care who they were shooting at.  Plus the folks that are against individual gun ownership, the folks too scared/weak/etc. to disobey and others that would follow the group-think of their superiors.

STLRN please don't take any of this as a flame,

Personally I'm not a SHTF type.  I don't want to lose the comforts of our society and I don't want to die, or lose my family and friends.

And yes I realize that I wouldn't last long against an AH-64, or an Abrams or 155mm, not exactly fair, but that's war...

But might doesn't make right, just because you COULD beat the hell out of any US rebels/guerillas doesn't make it right.
Plus I paid for those weapons with my tax dollars, so technically I should have just as much right to use them as you if the US decided to use force against it's own people.

It's that sort of talk that prompted me to start this thread.  "Sure I wouldn't fight citizens, but if I did...  I'd kick their asses".  That's a pretty frightening view, I'm not saying that's your view, but I have gotten that feeling from other members' posts on the UN thread.

As far as guerilla war, tell that to folks that fought in Vietnam, or the Russkies in Afganistan/Chechnia(sp?), I could go on and on.

So what happens if the Supreme Court rules the 2nd Amendment applies only to the Militia?

Now it's a Constitutional Order you've received to confiscate private weapons. Going to obey this order?

How about if the liberals manage a Constitutional Amendment and repeal the 2nd. Would you obey the confiscation order now? It is constitutional at that point.

Will you deploy onto American streets, if so ordered, to "instill calm and order"? Even though this violates Posse Commitus? Yes, I know they can weasel their way around that restriction, but they can weasel around the 2nd Amendment as well.

Here's another thought.

Gun control has been a slow process, and part of that process is a change in the attitude of society towards guns via the media and other methods.

20 years ago guns were not a major issue in politics.  People didn't cringe when you said you were a gun owner or hunter.  Now you have to watch what you say about your hobby or you can lose a job, friends, girlfriends, etc.  Yeah, we have become a social pariah, anyone disagree???

My point is that the older gents that served or currently serve in the military would not think twice about this issue, of course they would not confiscate guns.

How about the younger fellows?  Most young military folks I've met don't give a rat's ass about RKBA.  A lot don't think civilians should own 'assault rifles'.  Fast forward 5 or 10 years, when gun owners are further villainized (after a couple more Columbines and work shootings) and do you think the new recruits will be as hesitant to shoot at gunowners that are made out to be 'terrorists' by the media???


Bobby,
Yeah the ATF would begin the grabbing, but my guess is they would take heavy losses and someone would have to come in and clean up their mess.

HKocher,

A couple of thoughts on your last post above:

You can help change the culture and image of gun ownership by supporting organizations such as Citizens of America:
[url]www.citizensofamerica.org[/url]

The American Liberty Foundation at:
[url]www.americanlibertyfoundation.org/second.htm[/url]

The above two organizations are running pro-gun media campaigns, and can use any support that you can provide.

Everyone who is interested in personal pro-gun activism should read an excellent article called [i]Epiphanies and gun rights[/i] by Jeffrey C. Dege at:
[url]www.gun-nuttery.com/paper.php[/url]

My experience in the Army as enlisted is this. The powers that be don't trust Soldiers or Marines with ammo or enough ammo in potential or dangerous situations. (ie The Marines killed in Lebanon in the 80's with no ammo to stop the truck that ran the blocade) (Though I have other examples) The point is this. Our DOD and the U.N. have  fielded questions to soldiers in the past to get a gist on this question of armed resistance against citizens already; and I believe the answer they got from their questionare wasn't what they really wanted.

That's not to say that there are not U.S. military personnel who wouldn't blindly follow orders and do practically anything there told with a smile; because I have met those also.

NODDAH
That is actually a kind untrue about the DOD doing a survey.  The truth behind the survey "would US troops (Marines) fire on US citizens" is as follows.  A naval officer while doing a post grad degree at NAPS did a survey of combat arms MOS Marines part of RLT 7 at 29 Palms.  This survey had no official backing and was done as part of an academic study.  However, many conspiracy theorists have morphed this academic study into positive proof that the NWO is going to use Marines to take over the US.  The results of the study actually where that most said no, they won't.  There where a few, that did say yes.  But most of those where not the SNCO and Officers that would have to carry out the orders.  So I would say no the military will not disarm the American populace.

The Marine Corps has learned from its past mistakes, we no longer do what we did in Lebannon, when ever we go ashore, we carry a lot of weapons.

HK
Something that most of the nonmilitary men need to know about the US military.  In general it is the most conservative institution in the US.  We generally don't attract many tree hugging, birkenstock wearing types.  Many still go in for the idea of service to the nation.  While some where around half of the US population voted for democrats.  The US military went something like 70 percent for Republicans, remember the democratic effort to get military ballot thrown out there was a reason for that.  Most interesting that among SNCO and officers (most of the actual company leaders) it was closer to 90 percent voted for the conservative candidate.

I agree most people should have the opportunity to use the same weapons that I use.  But you have to have limits, you helped pay for peace keeper missiles also, but I don't think any of you should allowed to launch 10 100KT warheads down range because you help pay for them.  Additionally from many Internet sites I can tell you that most don't have the training to use most those weapons.  So if you really want to, enlist or get commissioned, you will receive training on employing devices designed to kill large numbers of people at one time.


fight4yourrights
The Marine Corps doesn't fall under Posse Commitus.   We are part of the Dept of the Navy.  Although general the spirit of the law is complied with, there have been numerous occasions we have been used to restore order within the US borders in times when civilian authority couldn't.  My question to you, other than get on Internet site and declare you willingness to fight 4 your rights, what have you done.  If I truly believe some the BS that some expose that is going on, I would be already in action.  But since I am on the inside and actually see that it is most paranoia, the same paranoia that said the world would end at the end of the century.  Funny, how there are people that have made that claim every century since we have been keeping records.

The US soldiers disarm the local routinely all over the world, just following orders.

Many might have a problem doing it in this country so the UN will have for say the French come over to disarm US citizens while the US soldiers are disarming the
Germans and the Germans the Austrailians etc.

STLRN - what would you have me do, drive down to Quantico and take out as many Marines as I can?

What the hell good would that do?  Our country is in serious trouble and is headed down hill rapidly.  I'm doing everything I can think of to stop that freight train, everything that will actually help.

My question is:  with all the military folks saying they won't confiscate guns because of the Constitution, what will you all do when they CHANGE the Constitution to make confiscation legal?  Then what?  Do you follow a "legal" order, or drop back to what is right and wrong?

I knew a lot of guys that had
personally owned firearms while I was in the USMC. If you lived in the barracks
there was an order that
your personal firearm had be registered at and
stored in the unit armory.
Guess what! [i]NO ONE[/i] I knew did that
despite it being a lawful order.
Keep in mind that while living in the barracks, you are
subject to unannounced "health and comfort"
inspections where all of your belongings are
subject to inspection by your CO and the MPs.

Being active Navy, I seriously doubt that it would be a bunch of squids coming to your doors asking for your guns. In the mystical land of "Shithatwilneverhapen", I know taking a fellow countryman's weapon is a violation of personal belief, and most of all violation of the 2nd Amendment that I swore to protect.

ckapsl, thanks for the links.

STLRN,

You're right, people would need proper training before using ANY type of weapon, be it a M16 or a ICBM, I was speaking from a purely hypothetical standpoint.  I don't plan on enlisting at any point in my future (although I consider it a noble profession), so it is a moot point.  I still wish I could play with the gear though...

I also realize that the military is a VERY conservative institution.  But reread my post regarding changing attitudes in society regarding firearms.  'Gun' is a bad word in today's society, and there aren't as many young boys and girls taking up the hobby as there were 20 years ago.

My point is, young men starting off in today's military are probably conservative, but not as conservative as you or I, since the definition has changed over the years.

Although you or I have no problem with civilians and 'assault rifles', these last few generations may have been taught that black rifles are bad in the hands of private citizens.  Maybe from their parents, maybe from the politicians, maybe TV or even teachers.

Whether they are conservative or not, doesn't mean they are pro-gun or even pro 2nd. amendment.

Again, this purely hypothetical scenario would occur years from now, so who knows what gun owners will be viewed as in the future.  It's a lot easier to talk young boys into going after their fellow countrymen when you label them as 'murders, crazies, terrorists, rebels, etc.'

Right this is purely hypothetical.  So it is against your personal beliefs, that is reassuring.  However, do you also feel that your fellow servicemen would agree with you, or do you believe that some would cooperate?

I've heard that the seals were the ones given the questioneire because theyre not covered by the possie comatatus act.
Eric

HK
I honestly think when and if it does occur, it will be via legislation and voluntary turn ins.  I think the government doesn't want to force a show down, because they don't know what will happen.  Many of the antigun types dislike the military as it is, I think they fear us because they are not sure what would happen.

ctrmass

I saw one of the original survey, a friend in 3/11 faxed one to me back in spring of 98.  Since that date I have seen "modified" versions of the same survey on the Internet.  But who modified them, more than likely people in the industry to spread paranoia, has never been clarified since the officer that original did the survey claims those where not his work.


Fight,
I think it is everyones' duty, if they believe it is actually happening. to resist.  I know I would resign my commission without a second thought.  If in fact there is actually a war against the American people, we would be bound to fight back.

GRAB THIS!!!!!

STLRN,
Once again I agree with you.  Gun Control will remain a legislative event, however, one day confiscation may become a reality, but by then, I imagine most folks would not resist.



Boland, no one is talking about shooting troops and no one is saying the military is against us.

There are folks that tell the military what to do, and this thread is regarding the unlikely chance that those folks would order the military to do something unconstitutional.

Some of you people are going nuts over this.  It seems like a you are forgetting that we in the military are AMERICAN as well.  Most of my friends in the military are private gun owners.  Do you think we want our weapons taken away too?  I saw somebody talk about single enlisted barracks or dorms on base and how you are not allowed to keep you firearms in the barracks.  That is very true.  I disregarded this "lawful" order and kept my P245 in the room with me as did many of my friends.

STLRN

What you posted is what is wrong with military personnel. You stated that we militia (SHTF) types don’t know how the Military Fights, Well you certainly don’t know how the Militia Fights,  you don’t have any idea what happens in a  guerrilla war, or how it is fought. Exactly who are you going to fire that 155 at anyway, little old me who is sniping at someone, or at some small group maybe six men in a militia cell, I don’t think so. Ever watch the movie Blue Thunder, that should give you some idea of what would happen if the military used some of it’s larger weapons to fight against the militia in an urban area. Those toys you love so much are just about useless against small groups of militia, and we will never gather in a large enough group to make that 155 effective. Do you really believe that you will receive orders to fire that 155 against an American City  or do you think that we militia types will stay in one place long enough so you can receive your fire orders. This war will not be anything like Vietnam, in Vietnam the only people who the VC could attack were our soldiers or the Vietnamese civilians and political leaders, since our families were safe at home in the United States. But if there is a Civil War here, things will be very different. For one thing it will really be neighbor vs neighbor and for real this time, not simply North vs South. Think about what the Germans did in WWII, where if the freedom fighters killed one German the Germans would kill several people from the village where the freedom fighters came from. They even destroyed an entire village for retaliation for what the local freedom fighters (Resistance) did. But the Resistance could not do the same thing to the German civilians since they were safe in Germany.  

So do you now know what I am getting at. So lets say you do fire that weapon you are using at the militia and the militia gets really ticked off and decide that since you don’t seem to mind killing our friends and family maybe we should give you a little taste of what it is like to have your family put in danger. I will tell you one thing for certain if my family is harmed in any  way by members of the military or law enforcement I will go after the families of the military and those law enforcers who are fighting us. So if you fire that 155 and kill my family don’t be surprised if you receive a message telling you that your family has been killed in revenge. Plus you yourself will be in a lot of danger since where do you go to relax where you will be perfectly safe. There will be no place where anyone who is fighting against us will be safe, and the safest place will be on Post or for our Marines on Base. In every city and small town there will be people like me who will be hunting anyone in the uniform of the enemy and if that happens to mean you then so be it. To put this as simple as possible, there will be no Safe Haven for anyone fighting against the militia and you will not know who is planning on killing you since  anyone you meet on the street may be one of us, a Freedom Fighter, a Militiamen or a Patriot.  

Nothing personal against you but posting that guerrilla fighter types like me will end their life in a heart beat forgets the fact that our military will not be able to use most of it’s larger weapons on it’s own citizens. It is very bad PR to accidentally drop a shell or bomb into a shopping mall or department store. Look even with all our high tech very advanced weapons our military still manages to have what it calls collateral damage, which is an interesting way of saying that our military accidentally killed some civilians or innocent people. So you get the orders to fire that 155 or if Air Force drop a bomb on my house where I am barricaded and defending myself, and you have a little accident and by mistake drop the bomb on the school next door, very very bad PR don’t you think.

I really hope that none of the military will actually fire upon us because if enough of them do then we will have no other alternative but to fire back and even try to destroy them in any way possible, and I do not want to kill anyone in our military, since they do not have any idea of what they do.
 

Sniper for Justice          

VINCE AUT MORIRE “Conquer or Die”

Well, back to the UN thread you are referring to.  If you want my frank opinion, if UN troops are ever on U.S. soil, conducting operations against my countrymen, I will NOT consider them troops, but will instead consider them invaders.

UN soldiers have no business on this country’s soil fighting against U.S. citizens.

Fascinating thread.

>>What you posted is what is wrong with military personnel. You stated that we militia (SHTF) types don’t know how the Military Fights, Well you certainly don’t know how the Militia Fights, you don’t have any idea what happens in a guerrilla war, or how it is fought.<<
Quick now, how many guerilla wars have been won in the last 100 years without extensive support from a major outside power??  That's right---NONE!  ZERO!  NADA!  That's what happens in a guerilla war--the guerilla's get their ass kicked unless some major power decides to support them.  Now, which major power whould support guerilla forces fighting to keep personal guns?  Right again---NONE!

I need to clarify something, “what is wrong with military personnel” refers to people with military backgrounds being overly caught up with the capabilities of the toys the military uses, and with their military training. Most of what the military has is designed to be used to fight a conventional war, like with the Soviets, China, or even Iraq, not with small groups of freedom fighters. Militias also like to have members with military background, but as I see it most people with military experience need to unlearn bad habits from their military service. Like being able to call for reinforcements and get air drops of ammo and supplies and having all those toys available. The Militia does not fight like the Army or other branch of the service and also does not fight by the same rules of war. We do not need orders to change how we fight we do as we wish and that makes the militia very unpredictable which is something the military and law enforcement does not like and is unprepared for. As I see it as a freedom fighter there are no rules of war that I need to obey, other then to Win anyway I can. It is not how you play the game, it is whether you win or lose. There is no second place winner if you lose you die or wish you were dead.  

I have respect for members of the military but we need to except the fact that military training and the capabilities of the armed services as a whole are not what they used to be and not by a long shot.

Sniper for Justice          

VINCE AUT MORIRE “Conquer or Die”

The Greatest General in the 18th. Century made the same mistake some of you are making.
"All Wars are Local"
Lord, General of the Empire, Cornwallis;
Charles 1st Marquis

You people make me laugh.......  

[smoke]Our aim is inform and entertain!

The RKBA is a right given to us by God himself. No man on this planet has the authority to take away your means of self defense. I would die before I disarmed a lawful human being. And when I say lawful I mean the law of God, not the law of man.

That is a very difficult discision.  And anyone who says it isn't is a liar.  To throw away a career, lifestyle, and perhaps my family's well being.  I don't think I could consciously carry out an order like that.  I don't think I will ever be asked to, either.  But, if so, it will be a very hard descision, even though I know the right choice.  (Of course then, the soldiers of the 3rd reich aren't very high on anyones love list)

And UN forces on MY country's soil, only if we were doing co-op training exersizes.  

James

"I have respect for members of the military but we need to except the fact that military training and the capabilities of the armed services as a whole are not what they used to be and not by a long shot."


You are soooOOOooo wrong my friend.  So wrong.  We are the best trained troops in the world.  

darm,

you have no idea about what you are saying. Name me one guerrilla war where the guerrillas had as many  weapons available to them as we do. If there is a second Civil War there will not be just a few freedom fighters, there will be over 100,000 of us who have the will and the skills to be able to really hurt the people who seek to disarm us. And what makes you think that defeating the military like we did to the Germans is necessary to win the next Civil War. All that is necessary is to cause enough trouble that the sheeple will tire of this war and just want to return to their normal lives. Look if there is a war our GNP will go down the toilet. People will not be able to get to work and if they did then they will find their employer is not open. They will also not like driving through a war zone like they do now in Israel every day as they try to go to work. The schools will not be able to open, there will be wide spread blackouts and shortages of food and fuel. And no Super bowl Game or World Series or any other sports event. Our cities will look like Beirut with overturned cars and trucks on the streets. And lets not forget about Martial Law and Curfews, which will be a big pain. Our economy will be destroyed and the rich people who are losing all the money will not be happy and will put pressure on the government to end this war before they go bankrupt. Everyone ask yourself this question how bad do these anti gunners want our guns, would any of them be willing to give up everything they have just to get our guns. Would they be willing to give up their SUV, their Swimming pool, their large screen TV, their European vacation, or their high paying prestigious job just to win the war and get our guns. And lets not forget maybe even their lives or the lives of their children. If there is a war it will not be fun for anyone. At least I have the willingness to do what is necessary including giving my life for what I believe in, are any of the gun grabbers  also willing to give their life for the “cause”, I don’t think so. And what if they brought back the draft, these anti gunners are also some of the same people who were the anti war people who burned their draft cards and I can not think of them letting their sons and now daughters get drafted into the service, they won’t even let their children play with war toys.

darm,
People like you have always been among us  telling us how useless it is to fight for what we believe in and that we can not even hope to win against the forces of the government whether it be the Red Coats of 1775 or the modern military of today. And lets not forget all those people who said “the earth is flat and you will fall of the edge” or “man will never fly” or “never travel faster then sound” and “will never get to the moon”  It is a good thing that most people did not listen to what people like you had to say otherwise there would be no United States, in more ways then one since Columbus would never have sailed, and hopefully no one will listen to what you and people like you have to say.
Or maybe you work for the government and are trying to keep us true patriots from fighting.  So what is it with you,  do you really believe the garbage you have been posting,  Or maybe you are like one of my friends who always has to say just the opposite of what someone else has to say.  

I am probably going to die fighting for our freedom and it makes me sick thinking that people like you will benefit from the sacrifices of the True Patriots and after all the fighting is over, will most likely tell everyone that you were one of us and were a hero even though you were hiding under your bed at the time.

Sniper for Justice          

VINCE AUT MORIRE “Conquer or Die”

This thread here is why AR15.com is so important!

You guys can really dig deep sometimes and I learn a helluva lot!

Thanks!

[rail]Railgun....

Sniper_762x51,  
You're proving that the US military is not going to knock on your door and take away your guns and you don't even realize it!  Furthermore, you're so wrapped up in this preconceived idea of what this war is going to look like that you don't realize that it has already started.  One law at a time, one vote at a time.  They took away high cap mags,  muzzle brakes, and the list goes on.  You're so busy training for this war you think is going to break out that you probably have forgotten to register to vote.  The more I read your posts I feel that you are a few steps away from bombing a federal building, killing the children and everyone else inside and thinking you're a hero.  You scare me.....

Boland,

Yes SF and Spec Warfare types have the best training but there are not many of them and a large number of them will be on our side. Read the Resister from the SF underground. Plus there are more of them who are now civilians like us then on active duty.  

Rifleer 1,

“ a very difficult decision" “I don’t think I could consciously carry out an order like that” What the F**k. If you are a true American it is the easiest decision, and you would not even think about doing it for an instant. What if you were ordered to murder some person just because they were a Jew and even though you know the right choice and you know that it is wrong but you do it anyway what does that make you. You will be even worse then the person who feels that Jews are a subhuman species and who gave you that order since you will know you are doing wrong and what you are doing is evil but you do it anyway just for a career, and lifestyle and as to your family’s well being no one is placing a gun to their head and giving you a choice their life against the stranger’s life. If your family has to do without all the comforts they are used to and even miss a meal or two then that is too bad. I know my family would not want me to become a murderer just to make their lives a little more comfortable since that is what you would be a murderer. And if you help to take the guns then you are a traitor and will be treated as one when the war is over and I hope you are not afraid of taking a short fall with a rope around your neck.

If I ever recieved an order like that I would kill whoever gave me the order instead.

Doorgunner,

Well you are right and wrong, our military is very well trained to fight a conventional war using all the high tech goodies, but is ill prepared for a Civil War in our own country. And the troops are not of the same quality as they used to be when there was the draft like during Vietnam. And we no longer have the will to do what ever is necessary to win like during WWII.  

Sniper for Justice          

VINCE AUT MORIRE “Conquer or Die”