I just got off the phone with the ATF regarding the transportation of firearms from one state to another.

I asked them if it was legal to transport various legal firearms across the country, unloaded, locked and out of reach, to my destination state, which allows the ownership of all the guns I'd be moving.

The ATF answer was this. They said that as far as they're concerned, as long as the departure state and destination state allowed the ownership of all the guns involved, they have no problem with it. However, various state AND local laws MAY prohibit such transport, and these laws would superceed the ATF position.

I was told that the only way to assure total legality was to not only contact every state that I'd be traveling through, but to contact every county and town along the way as well.

Now on a 3000+ mile drive across the country, the number of states, counties and towns necessary to be contacted would be in the hundreds, if not thousands. I told Mr.ATF that seemed damn near impossible to me, and he agreed.

I then asked him this. What does the ATF recommend for a law abiding citizen, in possetion of legal firearms to do in order to move across the country with these legal guns? Is there a letter available for travelers like myself to inform local law enforcement that I am only passing through to my new state? The answer was "no".

I then asked what he would recommend that I do in order to drive across the country, legally, with the guns I own. He told me to contact every state, county and town along the way to make sure I wouldn't be in violation of any laws.

What is this bullshit?!? We are NOT free people, we are suspects and fugitives from our own constitution.

Any of you have experience or feedback? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Is there away around this? Was Mr.ATF wrong? [pissed][pissed][pissed]

Others have suggested shipping your weapons to an FFL in the destination state. Don't know if that is all that good either.

If you read my post, you'll see that I asked Mr.ATF that EXACT question, and was told , by him, that different state, county and local laws superceed ATF guidelines, which may prohibit even the transportation of these guns while passing through.

Nope, I hate to say it, but I think Mr. BATF is right.  If you have a machinegun or NFA weapon, you can get a form 5320.20 to pass through states where possession of that NFA weapon would otherwise be illegal, but for semis, there is no similar form.

Unfortunately, Mr. ATF was right.

If the states OK a gun but the Feds outlaw it, it is outlawed. If the states outlaw a gun but the Feds OK it, it is outlawed. Same is true for every backwater town across the nation.

Just remember -

ATF isn't in the business of explaining the laws, or helping you comply with them, just busting you for non-complianace.

The fact that firearms laws are too numerous and confusing for even a Harvard lawyer to follow is simply "good for business" as far as the ATF is concerned.

Oh yeah. My advice??

Break 'em down, lock 'em up, put 'em in your trunk, away from any ammo, and DO NOT exceed the speed limit. You'll be fine.

So what you guys are saying is that EVERY time someone moves across the country with guns, they are forced to run a legal gauntlet in which if they get caught, they can lose it all?!?

You have got to be f*ckin' kidding me!!!!![puke]

BS indeed! what, their must be 300 municipalities between east & west, times .10 - .15 cents per call, damn!

i would do this: check the NRA site for states that allow/don't allow certain firearms, call those state police barracks first. say you're calling to see if...blah blah. when they answer you, say: to you're knowledge, are their any counties within your state that might give me a problem? then call those that might. 13-15 states between coasts, MAN, what a pain!!!

OR you could mail them (insured up the "---")
Or you could fly them over!

but hey, if you're truckin that u-haul across country, and obey EVERY possible traffic law, who would be the wiser about your 2nd amendment stash???

just my humble opinions!  

The gon owners protection act allows you to transport as long as the originating and recieving state say it is legal.Overnight stop overs are diffrent so check.

No what we are saying is that we are not such Nancys that we call up the feds and ask the proper way to do something because we are to scared to go across the country with a firearm in our vehicle.

Just pack em up and move. Don't ask, Don't tell just keep it your little secret and all will be well.

I suppose you are the type that lets a cop search your vehicle or person for no good reason also.

hate to say this for fear of being labeled a JBT-sympathizer, but none of those states counties, cities, laws are really any of their concern at all. and shouldn't be, if they were they'd be asking for another half-billion dollars for operations.

Now I'm sure if you broke one of those states laws and the cops mistakenly called the ATF out, it would become an ATF concern then, because by that point, your post ban already has an auto-sear installed in it.

wow I almost forgot that there was some good stuff in the "protection" act.

Hey asshole, I called to find out what sort of risks I may be running in doing what I plan on doing. I never said what my course of action would or wouldn't be, so remove your head from your ass before more shit flys out of your mouth.

Another big keyboard warrior critiquing others without knowing a damn thing about them.

I'm sure UPS, Fed X, USPS and other shippers rerout all fire arms to hubs in locations that permit them and all other packages just go on there normal way.

From the NRA Web Site:
"FEDERAL LAW ON TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS

A provision of federal law serves as a defense to state or local laws which would prohibit the passage of persons with firearms in interstate travel.

Notwithstanding any state or local law, a person shall be entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he may lawfully possess and transport such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and transport such firearm if the firearm is unloaded and in the trunk. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in a locked container other then the glove compartment or console. Necessary stops, e.g., gasoline and rest, seem permissible."

1. Go to www.nra.org
2. Click on ILA
3. Click on "Firearms Laws"
4. Scroll down to the brochure on interstate transportation of firearms.

Hopefully this helps.

M4, how are you moving the rest of your household goods?

The military will be moving me next month.  My collection will be fully insured, fully inventoried, and packed snugly with all my other stuff.  That's been the safest way to move my collection in the past.  I have to move the ammo separately (no energetics allowed).  

I agree with checking with the NRA for any "hot spots" to avoid.  

This is the provision that I was wondering about....
[b]Many states have laws governing the transportation of firearms. Also, many cities and localities have ordinances restricting their transportation. Travelers must be aware of these laws and comply with the legal requirements in each jurisdiction. There is no uniform state transportation procedure for firearms.[/b]

He called me an asshole. Like that is something new.  Not only is he a Nancy he is a sensitive Nancy who gets upset when some one points out he is a Nancy.

Sometimes the truth hits just a bit too close to home.

I'm fairly sure that you can legally ship weapons to YOURSELF in another state.
Check that out. HTH

dont put all your eggs in one basket...take some with you ...leave some behind with relatives friends etc...send some to yourself via fed ex

PAPERS .. PAPERS PLEASE ... YOU'RE PAPERS AREN'T IN ORDER .....    [spank] You act surprised .!?.

I'm sure being called an asshole is nothing new to you. Must be proud how numb you are to that. What a man.

I never said how or what I was going to do, I was simply asking questions as to what is legal and what is not. My course of action, which you have no idea about, is what you blindly and ignorantly judge. In the mean time, the rest of us will simply continue to exercise our freedom of speech.

I hesitate to offer advice to someone who is so obviously a jerk, but:  FOPA86 protects you as long as you are driving through.  Keep the guns locked in the trunk, unloaded, with ammo in separate cases.

New Jersey, Illinois, Massachusetts, California, and other extremely anti-gun states have been known to ignore the federal preemption, and so you should structure your trip to avoid them if at all possible.  If you can't, don't be a dick while driving through and you probably won't get pulled over.  Try to pass through during times when the cops aren't likely to have DUI checkpoints out, e.g., midafternoon before rush hour.

Most states allow you to have a gun in your hotel room for your own defense.  I would suggest planning your trip so that you stay overnight in "good" states like Iowa or Indiana, not "psycho bastard" states like Illinois or New Jersey.

I'm surprised at the relatively uncertain and/or unhelpful responses on this thread.  I'm not surprised that some dumbfuck at ATF tried to ignore an aspect of federal law that purportedly protects gun owners from persecution.

The law is one thing. It is the rookie cop trying to impress his chief and/or the Feds. whom you have to be concerned with. A "friend" of mine (yeah, thats right a friend) moved cross-country. He broke every firearm down. packed everything into a couple steel "job boxes", placed them in the rental truck first and piled every other household item on-top/in-front-of the boxes. He gave away his ammo before he left and obeyed every traffic law. He also drove in shifts with his father so they never had to park overnight (good idea security-wise too). Please forgive the run-on sentences. Good luck, I hope this helps.

Pack 'em up & move 'em out. I wouldn't sweat it. BTW, if you ship the firearms to your self across state lines, you have to ship them to an FFL. The FFL is required to do a NICS background check on you before he can legally transfer your guns back to you. If you have to do a NICS on each gun and you have a lot, it can add up. Plus, if your new locality has a waiting period beyond the requirements of Brady, you will have to endure that as well.
Pull out that big suitcase...

David -

Believe me, I appreciate your sentiment that essentially says "F- these unConstitutional laws."

But, were it my bacon hanging over the fire, I would call ATF / state police / etc to find out what my "exposure" is, should they decide to pull a fast one on me, and try to hassle me / take my guns away (illegally admittedly)

I wouldn't give ATF my name or anything.

Trust me, I support disbanding ATF. But I don't see it as being a wuss to see what laws you are going to be breaking. Sometimes, you gotta count the cost.

Am I misunderstanding you???

Well here's a first hand experience in this. I moved from CA to TX via AZ and NM. Rather than calling each and individual cities call the counties instead. This should cover 5-10 cities at a time. You will find that they would refer you to the local(county) sheriffs dept. Here's the site I used to find the numbers [url]http://officialcitysites.org/usa.php3[/url] Click on the state and then the county, then search for the sheriffs number.


BTW I only called a few and was told mainly no problem, so I gave up calling. Hope that helps.

Are you sure???

I can ship / mail firearms to Fulton or any other retailer, and they can mail them back to me WITHOUT FFL interference.

Once you own a gun, you can mail it anywhere is my understanding.

m4, the federal regulation only protects you if you do not stop.  Stopping INCLUDES getting gas or going to the bathroom.  So, how big of a gas tank do you have, and how big of a bladder do you have?

Seriously, I work for an armored car company, and in the past, we have transported firearm collections.  The company lawyer's advice is to not leave the interstate for any reason.  Notice he said interstate.  He said many local cities and counties consider the federal law protecting your rights to be unlawful on state or county maintained roads.  So, if you're paranoid, don't take shortcuts between interstates.  Our lawyer won't approve any stops other than at rest areas.  He says they're ok, because you can't travel from them to a point off of the interstate system.  In some areas the "travel plazas" means that we can get gas without incurring the wrath of our legal department.   In other places, we always stop within sight of the interstate.  The lawyer gave a case example (don't remember the name) where a federal prosecutor investigated a city police officer in NJ, because they violated the gun owner's civil rights (for using state/local powers to illegally impose restrictions on a federal protected right).  The guy had stopped at a gas station within sight of the interstate.  The judge didn't say that within sight was required, but the judge did mention it.

Finally, when traveling across state lines, we  always place a copy of the NRA's brochure and a copy of the actual law in a the container holding the firearms.  You might want to do the same.  BTW, it might seem strange to present an NRA brochure to a police officer, but from the few times I've dealt with LEO's and laws, they (like us) appreciate seeing the English version of the laws.

Don't you just love gray areas!

umm...for those military members getting transferred and moved by military contractors, make sure you check to see if you are allowed to ship firearms! during my last move (at retirement), i was advised that there would be ABSO-f'n-LUTELY  NO  firearms in my HHG shipment. of course that could have been so because i was in Guam (what a suck ass place!) and customs would have to check (steal) some of my boxes.  in any case, make SURE you got your duckies in neat little rows!  carry on.

First, if you feel you MUST worry about all the little places along the way, I would call the states you are going through, Florida for instance has preemption law that says any locality, County etc can't make a law outside of those authored by the state (something like that).

So if you call the states and find that they all have preemption laws, you're home free.

If they aren't just remember, police have to have probable cause to search your car.  If you don't have drug paraphernalia (sp?) in plain sight, or guns in plain site, you WILL be ok!

Just my $.02 worth
Steven L.

[):)]

Er, M4, you know I don't like you- but I am being serious here.

I have phoned them in 4 seperate occasions. 1 time, an agent told me that it was perfectly legal to manufacture a machine-gun so long as I paid the $200.00.
Another time, an agent told me that as best he knew, I could have a 14.5 inch BBL on my gun, just so long as it was threaded, and had an attachment that brought it up to 16"-

Another time, there was a guy on e-bay selling stolen gun parts . It was totally obvious, the way he was going about it. The same way a car thief would "part out" a stolen car.
Every part less the frame. In used condition. Selling for like $80.00 for a complete S&W M39, up to like $175.00 for a complete Beretta 92 set.  They couldn't figure out what I was trying to tell them. The way I see it, I wouldn't tell those assholse to "fuck-off" about anything else, but, like it or not,

they [red]are[/red] the enforcement branch as it relates to firearms. Stolen guns isn't cool, and it's bad Karma.

They just blew me off. (ATF Agent Turman, Wash. DC)

The whole point I am trying to make is, they don't interpret the law, they enforce it. They are monkeys. Not thinkers.
Asking them for firearms advice is akin to asking any given street cop. 90% of the time, it will be W_R_O_N_G-
Unless you got the tech-branch, the "ATF Phone-a-friends" are priviate citizens, doing a job, trtying to interpret the law as best they can out of the "yellow book"

cerberus, I don't think you are correct regarding the shipping of firearms to yourself.

Guys, atleast do a little research.  The BATF site is at:

[url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/[/url]

Any person can ship firearms to themselves without going through a (FFL) dealer.  You can even ship a firearm to yourself in care of another person in another State.  Assuming the weapon is legal to posses in the new location, the only additional restriction is that non FFL holders may not ship handguns to themselves.

OK, I scewed-up the last sentence of my last post.  It read:

That should have read: "the only additional restriction is that non-FFL holders my not ship handguns to themselves [i]via United States Postal Service[/i].  It's ok to send it a private carrier.  You just can't send it my postal mail like you can a long-gun.  I should reread my posts before hitting submit

Bunch of gossiping nellies here.  Geez, I read the bogus info by the 1st poster and then the next 1/2 dozen replies confirm this ridiculous urban rumor/wife's tale.

Federal law supercedes state and local law when transporting weapons.  The ONLY thing you have to worry about is a local cop who doesn't know the law.

Follow these steps and you'll be just fine:

1.  Unload them, lock them up, and put them in the trunk.  No cop can get in without a warrant (or unless you're dumb enough to talk the cop in or give permission).

2.  Drive the speed limit.

3.  Keep a copy of the law with you as well as a   written copy of your itenerary.  If you are doing an overnight, or a several night overnight, make reservations at motels along the route wether you use them or not.  This will show proof that you intend to go elsewhere.

4.  If a cop asks you if you have guns in the car, politely refuse to answer.  Don't give them ANY probably cause to enter your vehicle.  If your license/registration/insurance is up to par, just tell the cop you are moving from point A to B and are breaking no laws and you refuse to answer any other questions.

Should your car ever get taken apart, they will have had no grounds to do so and you'll have a wonderful ACLU lawsuit.  If they should find your guns, politely let them know that you are complying with federal law (as you hand them a copy of the law and your travel itenerary).  They may hassle you (this is assuming you get the 3rd degree) but I doubt very much they will take your guns.  

It would look very bad in trial the cop trying to explain, "Well, uh, yeah, the guy did tell me he was complying with Federal law, did show me his itenerary, did show me a copy of the law, and, uh, I took his property anyways."  That's a violation of your civil rights and could cost that police dept a pretty penny in damages.

And if the cop really insisted, I would give him the above example and ask him how he's going to explain to his Police Chief this one?

BTW, who cares what the ATF says?  Ask 100 cops if it's legal to drive barefoot, or drive with the dome light on in your car.  50 will tell you yes, 50 will tell you no.

Cops aren't lawyers.

It always kills me when I see an episode on cops where they just know they have some guy busted for something, search and search, and can't find a law that has been broken and then let him go.

2 examples come to mind.  Cops find a 19 year old man in a midwest state packing heat and frisk him down.  While examining his gun, they find he has hollowpoints.  They get all excited like monkies around a bannana tree.  They are just "sure" that HP's are for "cops only."  They call the station and finally let the guy go.

2nd example, is a black guy pulled over by Kali CHP, he has a mini 14 in the back seat of his Nissan 280zx.  They frisk him down, tear the car up, and the cop has a 12" boner to put this "criminal" into the can.  They keep looking for the PC to write it up, and guess what, unloaded rifle exposed in car is legal in PRK.  They let him go after they give him a "warning."

Warning?  he wasn't breaking the law.  I was in Jury duty last week.  The defendant says, "Well, my friend Officer so and so told me this was legal."  It wasn't.  Bad defense, you lose.

Even the IRS holds you responsible when you misfile your taxes after filing according to their advice.

ATF is no smarter.

Thanks everyone for your input. This all appears to be shades of gray legally. My guns will get there, I just wanted to assess any legal risks in driving them there myself. Seems like some creative solutions will have them arrive with me, with little or no hassles.

As for you 71-Hour-Achmed...

A "jerk"? I don't recall being a "jerk" to you, however since your panties obviously got all bunched up over something, may I suggest you go f*ck yourself.

Garandman, that was my only point, to identify my possible exposure while crossing the country. I agree with you 100%. Some people just can't deal with a different view point without making themselves feel better by ignorantly making cowardly assumptions. Concerned with the motivations of law enforcement? Damn right. Coward? Never.

Lock the firearms in your trunk in a locked case. Obey all laws.  Refuse all requests to search your vehicle without a warrant.  Searches are illegal without a warrant which has to be obtained due to probable cause to search.  A verbal agreement to conduct a search can be revoked.  Make no statements concerning possession of firearms to a law enforcement officer when firearms are locked in the trunk. Do not give any officer reason to search your vehicle.   (do not rely on my advice in legal matters, though I have studied Criminal law and procedures I am not an attorney).  I was pulled over once for drinking and driving, vehicle was searched illegally for alcohol, car was torn apart, I was observed eating a bag of Planter's peanuts in a aluminum foil red and blue package.  State police officer swore I was drinking a can of beer.  At the time I repeatedly told him I was eating peanuts and he called me a liar.  After 45 minutes of searching and finding nothing, I informed him I was a law enforcement intern studying criminal law and that even though I requested he contact his state police shift supervisor to administer a breathalyzer, he refused.  I notified him that I intended on filing a complaint with his supervisor for illegal search and that I was currently assigned through the Governor's office to the State Police office 30 miles away.  He nearly had a heart-attack after he opened my book bag and found all my legal course books.    

Legal or not I'm not sure I'd want to move my firearm collection myself on an extended trip.

NYS restricts the private transportation of handguns through the state. If you are in possession of five or more handguns it is presumptive evidence of your intent to sell such handguns. Common carriers are not subject to such restrictions. There are also an exception to the regulations for competitive shooters.

This has been answered numerous times. You can ship your firearms (handguns & long guns) to yourself to any state for any lawful purpose. Under federal law to do so it must be legal under state and local laws in both states.

It is also legal to have your firearms shipped by common carrier to yourself in the course of moving household goods.

On all Military moves I DITY move my motorcycles, my tools, the wifes really expensive stuff, out important papers and my guns.
Never been overseas though.

Last time I moved I called the state police / patrol / troopers / rangers and asked if it was legal to transport certain "firearms" through their state. I also checked the latest on each of the states web sites, and I also checked the NRA's web site.

I felt comfortable enough to carry all of the guns, and to even keep my Glock and my Mossberg by my side during the entire trip.

Stop at all stop signs, do the speed limit, use your turn signals.

No problems.

How's this:
[url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/qa.pdf[/url]

(B7) May a nonlicensee transport firearms for sporting or other lawful purposes?

Yes. Federal law provides a person, who is not prohibited by the GCA from receiving or transporting firearms, the right to transport a firearm under certain conditions, notwithstanding State or local law to the contrary.
The firearms must be unloaded and in a locked trunk or, in a vehicle lacking a trunk, in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
Also, the carrying and possession must be lawful at the place of origin and
destination.

[18 U.S.C. 926A, 27 CFR 178.38](B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not
transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another State.
The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the
contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract
carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A) and 922(e), 27 CFR 178.31]

(B10) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting
or other lawful activity?

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any
other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

(B11) May a person who is relocating out-of-State move firearms with other household goods?

Yes. A person who lawfully possesses a firearm may transport or ship the firearm interstate when changing his or her State of residence.
Certain NFA firearms must have prior approval from the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch, Washington, DC 20226, before they may be moved interstate. The person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported. He or she should also check State and local laws where relocating to ensure that movement of firearms into the new State does not violate any State law or
local ordinance.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(4), 27 CFR 178.28 and 178.31]

(B12) What constitutes residency in a State?
The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present with the intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent
duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in
one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to
which he or she commutes each day, then the member may purchase a firearm in
either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home
is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to
be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has
resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to
the date of sale of the firearm (See also Item 5, “Sale of Firearms to Aliens
in the United States”, under Items of Interest).

Hey M4:
I was put in this very position last year moving from the freedom-loving Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to the freedom-loving State of New Hampshire.  Well, if you draw a line between those 2 states, you cross through several bastions of communism including Massachusetts and New York.  

Unfortunately, the ATF is right.  So, I started researching what I had to do to legally carry my firearms through those states as I moved.  NY had NO provisions whatsoever, except to apply for a state Pistol permit, which they only give to residents.  Massachusetts was only marginally better, offering an out-of-state permit after paying $50, filling out 6,000 forms and waiting 6 months.  

My solution...  put trigger locks on guns, wrapped them up in separate boxes, tape them up, and moved my stuff through those states being real law-abiding like.  Well, I survived.  That's my suggestion.  Good luck!
Regards,
Paul D.

And I thought I was paranoid!

Then again, your guns aren't going to do you a whole hell of a lot of good broken down and packed away in your trunk.  You're moving all your belongins cross-country and staying in motels?  For god's sake, keep a loaded gun right on the seat next to you!  WTF?  Let the JBTs go scratch, it's your life we're talking about here.