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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:27:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All my unit's SEP V2s were reworked A1s, all the SEP V3s will/are reworked old ones as well. I vote give no Abrams to Ukraine. Even though there is like 3000 in the desert of California. |
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:30:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Apples and Oranges.. You think the North Koreans flew their own MiGs? |
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:30:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How much better are our tanks vs the Russian tanks? Will it be a game changer like the HIMARS? We also don't roll around in tanks like they are invulnerable. We have actual tactics. |
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:31:49 PM EDT
[#4]
No. It’s not a fire and forget missile and needs an entire supply chain to support it.
So of course the military industrial complex will push it to happen on our dime. |
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:32:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We built something like 6k hulls. All the active ones have been upgraded and rebuilt multiple times. Gotta keep Lima working. We built more like 9,000. Lima is doing the Polish Abrams right now so they are kinda busy. I'm sure we could find some tanks to send to them if we wanted to. It wouldn't take many. A BCT worth of tanks could probably take on a Russian division and then exploit the rear behind them. The Ukrainians aren't just a tank using country, they also produce them. They can learn to fix them as well. Or they can hire FSRs. |
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:32:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our tanks are significantly better but our DATs are way better than their DATs. We also don't roll around in tanks like they are invulnerable. We have actual tactics. DATs dropped out then the M60A3 was mothballed. They are now CDATs. |
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:33:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Might as well throw in some F-35s.
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:34:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Export, Egypt made one's? Sure.
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:34:46 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone in favor of this does not understand the logistical tail M1s require. Massive. And the parts are more complex than a "normal" tank. Aka the power pack. Compared to a regular diesel engine in other tanks. |
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:37:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Used models that we've parked for permanent storage on a lend lease program. Order new models that have self protection systems. The Russia supporters and the fake apathetic need not apply. |
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:42:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone in favor of this does not understand the logistical tail M1s require. Odds are that those planning it understand it better than you do. More than anything, considering this move means it is looking like a long war. New equipment training/fielding takes a long time. Ukraine is on the offensive. Offensive operations burn through equipment and there really aren’t many new T-XX variants being made or refitted behind NATO lines. M1s can be sustained, plenty of trainers available for them. T-72s on a long enough timeline cannot. |
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Posted: 9/26/2022 11:49:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More than anything, considering this move means it is looking like a long war. New equipment training/fielding takes a long time. If we had committed to training and equipping a single armored division on Feb 25th... they'd be ready today, with trained NCOs and officers at every level. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:01:00 AM EDT
[#13]
.
it's a shame we left all that stuff in Afghanistan that Ukrainians coulda used . |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:03:42 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even if we had M60A3 sitting in the desert, I very much doubt we have spare parts stocks for them anymore, and we certainly don't have any personnel who isn't pushing 60 years old who ever maintained them.  M1 Abrams "could" work, but there are shit load of "IFs". The Poles are just now receiving theirs and starting to train, but it will take months or years before they have all the back-end stuff in place and well exercised to support them. Other posters pointed out that fuel consumption is a concern, and I agree. The AGT1500 is multi-fuel and can burn almost anything, but unless they received upgraded models with APU, then the tanks might create more problems than they solve. Tank transporters (HETs or similar) is another problem, and it is almost 2x worse with the Abrams compared to a T-72 model.  Some of you guys act like Ukraine is getting "something for nothing"...the US taxpayer already paid for them, decades ago, and now we have a chance to use them for what they were intended to do, which is slay Russians. And we don't even have to do it with American troops! In true ARFCOM fashion, we should "get both": give Abrams to Taiwan AND Ukraine. We can work out the details of payment for later batches. The Abrams will be in service for a long time, so it could help us lower our costs of spare parts, or have a built in customer base for future upgrades that we want for ourselves. IRAQ got the damn things, for crying out loud. I at least have confidence Taiwan and Ukraine will be more grateful, and put them to better use.  Let Germany send them Leopard 2s. They're a bit older, and I believe a little less fuel hungry. Plus they're already in Europe. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:07:43 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let Germany send them Leopard 2s. They're a bit older, and I believe a little less fuel hungry. Plus they're already in Europe. Why not get them hooked on the Abrams? We send them 500 of them now, after the war is over GDLS forms a Ukrainian subsidiary to service them. That brings the number of hulls in active service to almost 6,000. We can design a new engine and sell it as an upgrade. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:12:59 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our tanks are significantly better but our DATs are way better than their DATs. We also don't roll around in tanks like they are invulnerable. We have actual tactics. If you were a Russian commander and heard that Ukrainians started getting our tanks, what could you do as an effective counter? |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:18:09 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you were a Russian commander and heard that Ukrainians started getting our tanks, what could you do as an effective counter? |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:23:42 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rather they go to Taiwan. This |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:24:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Given the mobilization, sure. Just the older models. It's a way for us to escalate without escalating too far. I'd give them some more HIMARS / M270s while we're at it. And probably work on getting them some aircraft.
We've got thousands of them just sitting there, waiting to be turned into scrap. They were created to kill Russians, and they'll never get a better opportunity to fulfill their purpose. As expensive as the Ukraine aid has been (and will continue to be), it's actually quite the bargain for us. We get to watch the Russians grind their army to a pulp for pennies on the dollar and no deaths for us. After this, the Russians will take at least a decade to even begin to recover. Nothing wrong with getting a little ROI on them before they hit the scrap yard. As for the logistics of it, sure that's complicated. But the reality is that even if Ukraine doesn't formally join NATO at the end of this, they will de facto be an extension of NATO and will be converting to NATO hardware and logistics systems. The Russians have pretty much ensured that to be a self-fulfilling prophecy for themselves. They're going to end up with Western tanks, aircraft, ships, etc. in the end anyway. Might as well just start now. WTF are the Russians gonna do about it? Invade Poland? Lol |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:28:34 AM EDT
[#20]
Can we just send Stacey Abrams in a tank to yell at Russians about racism until they get so tired of it they kill themselves or go home?
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:44:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does anyone else notice how we are on a runaway train giving away the bank and everything else? We are depleting our national defense reserves by blindly dumping them into a lost cause to be grinded up into ash. This has to leave us extremely vulnerable to the world. It's as if we are racing towards insignificance and helplessness. Who are we going to be helpless against? Pretty much the main reason we even have all that stuff for is to fight Russians anyway. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:57:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Does anyone ever ask, have our intelligence agencies always been this wrong about Russian military capability or were we just intentionally misled all this time?
If they’ve been this wrong all this time, why do we still need them? If they intentionally misled us all this time, why do we still need them? |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 1:11:54 AM EDT
[#23]
UKR? No...
POL? Fuck yeah... Polish troops have been to the US for training on our tanks for a few years. They find them damn sexy. Fuck the germans, move all our forward bases into Poland. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 1:22:54 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some of you guys act like Ukraine is getting "something for nothing"...the US taxpayer already paid for them, decades ago, and now we have a chance to use them for what they were intended to do, which is slay Russians. And we don't even have to do it with American troops! |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 1:25:15 AM EDT
[#25]
Give 'em the monkey models we gave the Iraqis. Pay up front is a joke at this point. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 1:27:30 AM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 9/27/2022 1:29:04 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Even if we had M60A3 sitting in the desert, I very much doubt we have spare parts stocks for them anymore, and we certainly don't have any personnel who isn't pushing 60 years old who ever maintained them. M1 Abrams "could" work, but there are shit load of "IFs". The Poles are just now receiving theirs and starting to train, but it will take months or years before they have all the back-end stuff in place and well exercised to support them. Other posters pointed out that fuel consumption is a concern, and I agree. The AGT1500 is multi-fuel and can burn almost anything, but unless they received upgraded models with APU, then the tanks might create more problems than they solve. Tank transporters (HETs or similar) is another problem, and it is almost 2x worse with the Abrams compared to a T-72 model. Some of you guys act like Ukraine is getting "something for nothing"...the US taxpayer already paid for them, decades ago, and now we have a chance to use them for what they were intended to do, which is slay Russians. And we don't even have to do it with American troops! im 54.. 45E 45N Turret Mech M60A3 M1A1 In true ARFCOM fashion, we should "get both": give Abrams to Taiwan AND Ukraine. We can work out the details of payment for later batches. The Abrams will be in service for a long time, so it could help us lower our costs of spare parts, or have a built in customer base for future upgrades that we want for ourselves. IRAQ got the damn things, for crying out loud. I at least have confidence Taiwan and Ukraine will be more grateful, and put them to better use. Our NATO allies have tons of them and tons of maintainers, thats why the idea of sending them M60a3 is involved in the talks.. lots of M60's in ready storage in Europe just sitting there, alot of them have been upgraded with ERA. and night sights |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 1:29:41 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Give 'em the monkey models we gave the Iraqis. Pay up front is a joke at this point. Is this what you’re referring to? https://www.army.mil/article/64944/iraqi_army_receives_last_shipment_of_abrams_tanks |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 1:32:15 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote Historywhat does that pic have to do anything with this thread?? (besides that you post it in every Ukraine thread you see, ) what a strange obsession you have with zelensky
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Posted: 9/27/2022 1:40:02 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Massive. And the parts are more complex than a "normal" tank. Aka the power pack. Compared to a regular diesel engine in other tanks. So? It goes on a truck to Poland where Honeywell does what Honeywell do and a new pack goes in. Problem solved. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 1:49:40 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our NATO allies have tons of them and tons of maintainers, thats why the idea of sending them M60a3 is involved in the talks.. lots of M60's in ready storage in Europe just sitting there, alot of them have been upgraded with ERA. and night sights The US and almost all European nations have no M60s left. Arabs got most of them and they aren’t going to give them back. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:07:58 AM EDT
[#32]
Why does Ukraine need Abrams tanks? They haven't needed them so far.
They're not going to drive into the heart of Moscow. This is an entirely defense war and as such is a war of attrition where the best outcome would be Ukraine forcing Russia to negotiate a status quo ante bellum (the situation as it existed before the war). Ukraine cannot resolve this conflict through force of arms, because they cannot destroy their enemy's leadership and force the enemy nation to submit. All Ukraine can do is hope that the Russians are bled so severely they decide it is in their interests to sue for peace rather than continue a costly conflict at which point such peace is really just a temporary armistice where Ukraine will have to rearm quickly to discourage future invasions. I think too many here at AR15.com have been caught up too much in the media propaganda. Ukraine is not going to win as the allies won in WW2 here, they're going to have to win in the fashion that the Mujahideen did against the Soviets or the Viet Cong did against the Americans through attrition and expenditure of capital until Moscow determines that even a victory in Ukraine would be a Pyrrhic one. I believe they are well on their way to doing so and they have been put on that path to victory without Abrams tanks being necessary. The emphasis for Ukraine should be on their mass mobilization efforts to train infantry BCTs and have them mechanized with less sophisticated and more familiar old Soviet hardware from Eastern European NATO members who in turn take possession of things like Abrams tanks. Ukraine is a conscript military now not a professional one with the benefit of years of training. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:19:17 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why does Ukraine need Abrams tanks? They haven't needed them so far. They're not going to drive into the heart of Moscow. This is an entirely defense war and as such is a war of attrition where the best outcome would be Ukraine forcing Russia to negotiate a status quo ante bellum (the situation as it existed before the war). Ukraine cannot resolve this conflict through force of arms, because they cannot destroy their enemy's leadership and force the enemy nation to submit. All Ukraine can do is hope that the Russians are bled so severely they decide it is in their interests to sue for peace rather than continue a costly conflict at which point such peace is really just a temporary armistice where Ukraine will have to rearm quickly to discourage future invasions. I think too many here at AR15.com have been caught up too much in the media propaganda. Ukraine is not going to win as the allies won in WW2 here, they're going to have to win in the fashion that the Mujahideen did against the Soviets or the Viet Cong did against the Americans through attrition and expenditure of capital until Moscow determines that even a victory in Ukraine would be a Pyrrhic one. I believe they are well on their way to doing so and they have been put on that path to victory without Abrams tanks being necessary. The emphasis for Ukraine should be on their mass mobilization efforts to train infantry BCTs and have them mechanized with less sophisticated and more familiar old Soviet hardware from Eastern European NATO members who in turn take possession of things like Abrams tanks. Ukraine is a conscript military now not a professional one with the benefit of years of training. You cannot be more wrong on that part. they are a very well trained army. trained by the west for almost a decade also. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:22:12 AM EDT
[#34]
The available supple of T-72s for Ukraine is drying up and attrition will likely claim 30% of Ukrainian tanks in the next year at least. Furthermore due to their failure mode typically killing the crew the long term solution will be another tank. They need it if the war drags out, if Russia successfully mobilized, or after the war.
I think we ought to give them older Abrams, and a contract to upgrade them at GDLS-Ukraine, the tax value of which for the US would be significant. Plus why would we have so many tanks when the enemy we need them for is both battered and constrained by a nation willing to use its own military? |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:23:09 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The US and almost all European nations have no M60s left. Arabs got most of them and they aren’t going to give them back. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Our NATO allies have tons of them and tons of maintainers, thats why the idea of sending them M60a3 is involved in the talks.. lots of M60's in ready storage in Europe just sitting there, alot of them have been upgraded with ERA. and night sights The US and almost all European nations have no M60s left. Arabs got most of them and they aren’t going to give them back. No thats not correct, Fun fact: M60s remain the most numerous main battle tank in service in many countries today, including Egypt (1,700), Turkey (932), Taiwan (450), Saudi Arabia (450), Morocco (427), Thailand (178), and Bahrain (180.) |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:33:44 AM EDT
[#36]
Idk, Tanks require a huge amount of logistics. Unless there’s a big breakthrough in active protection, there’s not much point. Can our latest M1’s defend themselves from a Javelin or a Drone?
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:37:15 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No thats not correct, Fun fact: M60s remain the most numerous main battle tank in service in many countries today, including Egypt (1,700), Turkey (932), Taiwan (450), Saudi Arabia (450), Morocco (427), Thailand (178), and Bahrain (180.) Yes, but on that list I expect only Egypt and Morocco would be amenable to a trade or sale, and I’m sure those tanks aren’t upgraded to modern standards “insofar as a second generation tank could possibly be upgraded that far). There’s no line for serial production of M60 upgrades, but there is for the Abrams. Fun fact, something like 15% of T-72s built have been destroyed or scrapped. Russia owns roughly half of extant T-72s. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:38:45 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Idk, Tanks require a huge amount of logistics. Unless there’s a big breakthrough in active protection, there’s not much point. Can our latest M1’s defend themselves from a Javelin or a Drone? Ask not what you can do to the tank, but what the tank can do to you. They aren’t obsolete, Russia doesn’t operate Javelins, and active protection systems will come on line before long to make them almost invulnerable again. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:39:08 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Show me on the doll where the British touched you Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If your gonna supply them Abrams, better add one fuel tanker per tank as well. Thats a big NO for me, fuck UK Well, they did bomb Pearl Harbor. I believe his outrage is warranted. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:39:15 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You cannot be more wrong on that part. they are a very well trained army. trained by the west for almost a decade also. Mass mobilization, means that the bulk of their fighting age men not previously in the Ukraine military have been called up to fight. Those men had little to no prior military experience and were NOT trained by NATO allied nations prior to this year. The men in Ukraine who did receive training from NATO allies were limited to their active duty military and their training was not on sophisticated western systems nor was it extensive. Those are undeniable facts. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:42:34 AM EDT
[#41]
Have NATO back dues pay for them.
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:44:14 AM EDT
[#42]
What good's a modern hi-speed tank without the logistics and a knowledgable crew to run it?
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:49:25 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The available supple of T-72s for Ukraine is drying up and attrition will likely claim 30% of Ukrainian tanks in the next year at least. Furthermore due to their failure mode typically killing the crew the long term solution will be another tank. They need it if the war drags out, if Russia successfully mobilized, or after the war. I think we ought to give them older Abrams, and a contract to upgrade them at GDLS-Ukraine, the tax value of which for the US would be significant. Plus why would we have so many tanks when the enemy we need them for is both battered and constrained by a nation willing to use its own military? T-72s are available from Eastern EU nations that were formerly part of the USSR. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:50:58 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mass mobilization, means that the bulk of their fighting age men not previously in the Ukraine military have been called up to fight. Those men had little to no prior military experience and were NOT trained by NATO allied nations prior to this year. The men in Ukraine who did receive training from NATO allies were limited to their active duty military and their training was not on sophisticated western systems nor was it extensive. Those are undeniable facts. The US Army was not the all volunteer force when the Abrams was designed, and these days support for the advanced systems in tanks is provided in large part by government civilians and contractors. Remember that the T-64 and T-80 come from Ukraine. They’ve operated and built turbine engines tanks before. And they have a tech industry that could be taught to maintain digital equipment. Arabs operate Abrams with some success despite literally being products of incest. Ukrainians can figure it out. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:51:45 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What good's a modern hi-speed tank without the logistics and a knowledgable crew to run it? Exactly, an armored brigade combat team is extremely heavy in the tail folks. Logistical support is the bulk of the brigade. Talking training necessary for repair crews, logistics, and training with the use of combined arms in maneuver warfare which is like PhD level shit for military men. I think we in the USA take for granted how sophisticated our military really is. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:56:04 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The US Army was not the all volunteer force when the Abrams was designed, and these days support for the advanced systems in tanks is provided in large part by government civilians and contractors. Remember that the T-64 and T-80 come from Ukraine. They’ve operated and built turbine engines tanks before. And they have a tech industry that could be taught to maintain digital equipment. Arabs operate Abrams with some success despite literally being products of incest. Ukrainians can figure it out. Who is talking about deploying U.S. civilian contractors to Ukraine? I'm sure in time anyone with an average IQ could learn how to operate, maintain, and effectively use the Abrams, but that all takes time and that is a precious commodity not to mention money. Such resources would be spent much better elsewhere for Ukraine. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 2:56:47 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: T-72s are available from Eastern EU nations that were formerly part of the USSR. Bulgaria: not happening. Czechia: donated 40+ of 106 and need a replacement. Hungary: not happening. Morocco is close to the US and could probably be worked with in exchange for Abrams. North Macedonia: gave theirs back to Ukraine Slovakia: 30, mostly in reserve. So if you got ALL of the available European T-72s, that’s…100ish, mostly of the monkey model and mostly from reserves that need a rebuild. And it’s likely that many of these were already donated and we didn’t get them counted yet. That’s not going to cut it. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 3:00:32 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who is talking about deploying U.S. civilian contractors to Ukraine? I'm sure in time anyone with an average IQ could learn how to operate, maintain, and effectively use the Abrams, but that all takes time and that is a precious commodity not to mention money. Such resources would be spent much better elsewhere for Ukraine. They don’t need to go to Ukraine. Well maybe a few, for which they’d be paid. Most of the work would occur in Poland. What we have here is an opportunity to export thousands of tanks in the next decade, and make billions of dollars, and push the Leo 2s shit in on the international market. Plans need to be put in place now for Ukraines post war military. As far as I’m concerned we can GIVE them a ton of US stuff and reallocate our defense spending to higher priority programs and new replacement programs. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 3:15:50 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mass mobilization, means that the bulk of their fighting age men not previously in the Ukraine military have been called up to fight. Those men had little to no prior military experience and were NOT trained by NATO allied nations prior to this year. The men in Ukraine who did receive training from NATO allies were limited to their active duty military and their training was not on sophisticated western systems nor was it extensive. Those are undeniable facts. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You cannot be more wrong on that part. they are a very well trained army. trained by the west for almost a decade also. Mass mobilization, means that the bulk of their fighting age men not previously in the Ukraine military have been called up to fight. Those men had little to no prior military experience and were NOT trained by NATO allied nations prior to this year. The men in Ukraine who did receive training from NATO allies were limited to their active duty military and their training was not on sophisticated western systems nor was it extensive. Those are undeniable facts. You said "Ukraine is a conscript military now not a professional one with the benefit of years of training." Prior to russias invasion Ukraines armed forces consisted of nearly 200 thousand professional active soldiers. the second largest in the region behind russia themselves. so yes you are wrong! LOL,and you obviously dont know your facts then bud, The majority of the fighting being done is by the professional military of Ukraine, not "conscripts". NATO countries have been training Ukraine for 3 decades, ON NATO equipment also, along with profesionalizing there army to NATO standards, not the old soviet conscript style, they do have conscripts but also career soldiers. and by 2018 they had a professional military that numbered 200,000 active service men, with 900,000 reservists. so no the "bulk" of there actual service men are not chumps off the street with no experience. ."Following hostilities with Russia in 2014, Ukraine increased the size of its armed forces to 204,000 soldiers (+46,000 civil servants), not counting additional forces such as the border guards (53,000), the newly formed National Guard of Ukraine (60,000) or the security service. In 2021, Ukraine's Armed Forces, consisting of 246,445 (195,626 military personnel), was the second largest in the region, after the Russian Armed Forces" also a majority that have been called up have fought since 2014 in the east. Ukraine has not done a full mobilization yet, only partial edited to add: little side note on the training of Ukrainians outside of Ukraine, since it was brought up in this thread that they needed to focus on training instead of getting weapons to win the war. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3015610/us-troops-train-ukrainians-in-germany/ |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 3:24:57 AM EDT
[#50]
Lol, good luck with that.
Per the last thread, the A1 line was shut down when the Marines divested themselves of tanks. So, any tanks taken out of the desert would require a complete rebuild to A2 SEP standards. Take existing orders into account and those tanks might be in Ukraine around 2024-5. You’d be better off talking the sultan out of his Sabras and Leopards in exchange for transmissions and engines for his licensed K2. |
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