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Posted: 5/27/2022 11:56:24 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You could have gotten volunteers to go in with the cops. Some things are worth getting paper for if the chief disagrees. Well, there is a great idea. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that we will find out the locked door wasn’t the issue. Something else changed it from an active shooter response to a barricaded subject, hostage situation or they had no idea where the shooter was because he went silent. The locked door is an easy excuse for now. The whole discussion of breaching is probably irrelevant. However, locked doors in these situations are not usually a problem. They are dealt with through planning and preparation, which likely didn’t occur in this small city. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 11:58:10 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've fast roped or helo infil a stihl concrete saw, the "quickie saw", many times, even changed blades on the obj. It's practical when you realize it's needed and it works. Now there is smaller, battery powered options that may fit the bill, and would be much easier to maintain in the trunk of a patrol car. But, you’re tier one. I’m talking about us normal guys on Kill Team 3. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 12:06:10 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've fast roped or helo infil a stihl concrete saw, the "quickie saw", many times, even changed blades on the obj. It's practical when you realize it's needed and it works. Now there is smaller, battery powered options that may fit the bill, and would be much easier to maintain in the trunk of a patrol car. But it would take time to get it out of the locker and out to the scene. We didn't carry it all the time. I did carry a sawed off Ithaca 37 with a pistol grip and CTS 2570 breaching rounds in my kit. But that wouldn't do any good on commercial doors. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 12:10:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, there is a great idea. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that we will find out the locked door wasn’t the issue. Something else changed it from an active shooter response to a barricaded subject, hostage situation or they had no idea where the shooter was because he went silent. The locked door is an easy excuse for now. The whole discussion of breaching is probably irrelevant. However, locked doors in these situations are not usually a problem. They are dealt with through planning and preparation, which likely didn’t occur in this small city. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You could have gotten volunteers to go in with the cops. Some things are worth getting paper for if the chief disagrees. Well, there is a great idea. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that we will find out the locked door wasn’t the issue. Something else changed it from an active shooter response to a barricaded subject, hostage situation or they had no idea where the shooter was because he went silent. The locked door is an easy excuse for now. The whole discussion of breaching is probably irrelevant. However, locked doors in these situations are not usually a problem. They are dealt with through planning and preparation, which likely didn’t occur in this small city. Sure, maybe it could be not what the agency has been telling us. It could well be that they decided to hold back and let people die. I don’t see how that better. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 12:11:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But, you’re tier one. I’m talking about us normal guys on Kill Team 3. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've fast roped or helo infil a stihl concrete saw, the "quickie saw", many times, even changed blades on the obj. It's practical when you realize it's needed and it works. Now there is smaller, battery powered options that may fit the bill, and would be much easier to maintain in the trunk of a patrol car. But, you’re tier one. I’m talking about us normal guys on Kill Team 3. You realize that you don’t have all of the answers and ask for help. I know it’s hard, but it’s important. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 12:46:53 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Egress corridors are fire rated, usually 1 hour. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Dear breaching sme's, a real question: With modern commercial building construction, are all interior walls firewalls ? Any way to go up thru interior ceiling panels and drop down on other side of interior walls ? Just curious, as shorter ultra lightweight extension ladders could be a tool. Thanks Egress corridors are fire rated, usually 1 hour. Appreciate it. Were doing some upgrades here (17yr old commercial building) and I've spent some time in the ceiling. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 1:59:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Unless school security camera footage, or bodycam footage exists shows the police beating on the classroom door and trying to make entry, 87 percent of Arfcom will believe the police were fucking off on their phones waiting for the state swat team to arrive.
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Posted: 5/27/2022 2:46:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless school security camera footage, or bodycam footage exists shows the police beating on the classroom door and trying to make entry, 87 percent of Arfcom will believe the police were fucking off on their phones waiting for the state swat team to arrive. Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless school security camera footage, or bodycam footage exists shows the police beating on the classroom door and trying to make entry, 87 percent of Arfcom will believe the police were fucking off on their phones waiting for the state swat team to arrive. Should be 100% Uvalde School District Police Chief thought that the shooting was over. He thought everyone inside the classroom had been killed, and that the only person inside who was alive was Ramos. As a result, he ordered the 19 cops outside not to breach the door and instead to wait for tactical squads. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10861681/Texas-cops-reveal-Uvalde-police-no-effort-enter-shooting-classroom.html |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 2:58:48 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But, you’re tier one. I’m talking about us normal guys on Kill Team 3. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've fast roped or helo infil a stihl concrete saw, the "quickie saw", many times, even changed blades on the obj. It's practical when you realize it's needed and it works. Now there is smaller, battery powered options that may fit the bill, and would be much easier to maintain in the trunk of a patrol car. But, you’re tier one. I’m talking about us normal guys on Kill Team 3. Actually at the time I was white side SOF, SF to be exact, which isn't even tiered. The need for someone who had an expertise I possessed got me in a short notice deployment gig later on, but I wasn't all that cool. Moot point, as most people here that use any of the aforementioned terms don't know what they mean. I got 30 mins of instruction on the saw, and it became my baby. I sought additional information on my own. Given a saw, a few blades, and an abandoned building, I could make someone an expert in half a day. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 3:00:25 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My SWAT team had one and we outfitted it with a sling. Had a diamond tipped blade. But it would take time to get it out of the locker and out to the scene. We didn't carry it all the time. I did carry a sawed off Ithaca 37 with a pistol grip and CTS 2570 breaching rounds in my kit. But that wouldn't do any good on commercial doors. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've fast roped or helo infil a stihl concrete saw, the "quickie saw", many times, even changed blades on the obj. It's practical when you realize it's needed and it works. Now there is smaller, battery powered options that may fit the bill, and would be much easier to maintain in the trunk of a patrol car. But it would take time to get it out of the locker and out to the scene. We didn't carry it all the time. I did carry a sawed off Ithaca 37 with a pistol grip and CTS 2570 breaching rounds in my kit. But that wouldn't do any good on commercial doors. I borrowed a crate strapping machine in a shipping facility and strapped mine to an ALICE frame. ETA: I was a weapons dude, not an 18C, nor was i trained as a breacher other than cross training. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 3:20:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve never seen an exterior school door open inwards. Classroom doors do so they don’t block the hallway. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I thought all exterior doors in public buildings were supposed to open outward, for emergency egress reasons? I seem to remember my school's classroom doors opening inward, though. I’ve never seen an exterior school door open inwards. Classroom doors do so they don’t block the hallway. You may see an exterior door open inward in MN because of snow blockage. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 3:21:37 PM EDT
[#12]
Link to good videos about breaching doors with a shotgun?
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Posted: 5/27/2022 3:22:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Through this whole thing, I've wondered If a breeching shotgun was a thing. A shockwave with a breaching barrel and a load of breaching slugs with more on the saddle would have been nice to have. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 6:07:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You could have gotten volunteers to go in with the cops. Some things are worth getting paper for if the chief disagrees. So now it’s the fireman’s fault? I’m trying to keep up. When do we start blaming the ar15 enthusiast that slaughtered fucking children ? I’m not going to like that. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 6:16:31 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A shockwave with a breaching barrel and a load of breaching slugs with more on the saddle would have been nice to have. Doubt it.  |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 7:26:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dear breaching sme's, a real question: With modern commercial building construction, are all interior walls firewalls ? Any way to go up thru interior ceiling panels and drop down on other side of interior walls ? Just curious, as shorter ultra lightweight extension ladders could be a tool. Thanks But it really depends on the overall plan of the structure and how architects and engineers want to provide fire protection within the design. I will say that most likely that the interior classroom walls in just about every school I've been in has walls that go up to the deck. Open floorplans are becoming more popular in school design though. Frankly, I don't think schools should be built like malls, they should be built like prisons. Way safer and besides they are institutions after all. 
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Posted: 5/27/2022 7:30:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The windows seem to negate the door as an obstacle in the first place. This is what I was thinking after the videos in Team. They can get kids out of the windows, why can't they use them to enter a room. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 7:37:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've lived in the South almost 65 years and only storm doors/screen doors "open out". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is it an inward or outward door? Up north, exterior doors open in and down here open out. What was the class room door? I've lived in the South almost 65 years and only storm doors/screen doors "open out". I have never seen one in texas. All open in. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 7:50:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Theres a thing called a Knox box. Firefighters have a key to that box. That box contains keys to any commercial building.
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Posted: 5/27/2022 7:50:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Vehicles make great breaching tools...... Bingo. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 8:36:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So now it’s the fireman’s fault? I’m trying to keep up. When do we start blaming the ar15 enthusiast that slaughtered fucking children ? I’m not going to like that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You could have gotten volunteers to go in with the cops. Some things are worth getting paper for if the chief disagrees. So now it’s the fireman’s fault? I’m trying to keep up. When do we start blaming the ar15 enthusiast that slaughtered fucking children ? I’m not going to like that. How did you get that out of what I said? The fire vehicles were likely sitting at staging wondering what was taking so long. If there were asked to go in in order to make entry I expect they would have gotten several folks who would have said they would. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 8:47:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Theres a thing called a Knox box. Firefighters have a key to that box. That box contains keys to any commercial building. Which gets you in the exterior door. They didnt need to get through the exterior door |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 9:01:05 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which gets you in the exterior door. They didnt need to get through the exterior door Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Theres a thing called a Knox box. Firefighters have a key to that box. That box contains keys to any commercial building. Which gets you in the exterior door. They didnt need to get through the exterior door It lets you in to wherever the keys in it get you to. I've used them and had only exterior, some were they added alarm system keys, and others where you had all access keys. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 9:01:28 PM EDT
[#24]
How was the shooter able to lock the doors? That seems like a massive strategic failure. First, he walks through an open exterior door and then is able to lock himself inside a room full of kids?
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Posted: 5/27/2022 9:14:33 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How was the shooter able to lock the doors? That seems like a massive strategic failure. First, he walks through an open exterior door and then is able to lock himself inside a room full of kids? This, the typical scenario got reversed, the bad guy isn't outside the door trying to get in - he's inside behind a locked door. |
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Posted: 5/27/2022 9:29:51 PM EDT
[#26]
If all else fails SUV push bar vs door
I’m no tough guy but gunshots in a school I’ll find a way in. Throwing training out the window is a great way to get shot but think of the cost of delay |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 12:47:25 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You realize that you don’t have all of the answers and ask for help. I know it’s hard, but it’s important. I’m not sure why that is directed at me, but ok. There was no reason to ask a question. Protocol dictated the response for the circumstances, which was to pursue and neutralize the threat. It appears that wasn’t followed. Unfortunately, the Chief, by his own admission, ordered the delay. Just as I suggested in a post above, the active shooter protocol was wrongly changed into barricaded subject and/or hostage protocol. It wasn’t because a door was stopping them. It was a stand down order. So, whether or not the officers asked a question, which they should have already known the answer to, they received the absolutely wrong answer. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 1:03:46 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bingo. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Vehicles make great breaching tools...... Bingo. There it is again.  schoolOkay Real Men Of Genius, Answer this. In the VERY unlikely event your vehicle breaches the wall, how are you going to get around the car plugging the hole? |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 1:07:36 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which gets you in the exterior door. They didnt need to get through the exterior door Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Theres a thing called a Knox box. Firefighters have a key to that box. That box contains keys to any commercial building. Which gets you in the exterior door. They didnt need to get through the exterior door A lot of times I will open a knox box and there are 4-5 keys hanging and a scan card of some sort. What you said with its restrictions is patently false in my neck of the woods |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 2:02:23 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does nobody think outside the box?? You don't have to get the SUV inside the building if the classroom is on an exterior wall. And... YES, you can batter down a wall with a sledge. My guys have trained on it. We can make a man sized opening in a couple minutes. If my memory serves me correctly they did exactly that to extract those trapped in the bathrooms at Pulse night club. They pulled the AC unit out of the wall. Going through the wall with a hammer is a no go, a couple of minutes is impressive in terms of the physical feat you're performing. Except when there's an armed bad guy in the room. You know what he's going to be doing during those couple minutes, right? Too slow. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 2:24:36 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They pulled the AC unit out of the wall. Going through the wall with a hammer is a no go, a couple of minutes is impressive in terms of the physical feat you're performing. Except when there's an armed bad guy in the room. You know what he's going to be doing during those couple minutes, right? Too slow. Oh? Not enough manpower to suppress? |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 2:43:53 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh? Not enough manpower to suppress? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They pulled the AC unit out of the wall. Going through the wall with a hammer is a no go, a couple of minutes is impressive in terms of the physical feat you're performing. Except when there's an armed bad guy in the room. You know what he's going to be doing during those couple minutes, right? Too slow. Oh? Not enough manpower to suppress? ...you're recommending unaimed suppressive fire into a room full of dead or alive kiddos? Why not throw a frag or two first, just to properly clear the room? |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 2:57:38 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They tore down a school and rebuilt on site just a few years ago. I personally opened a few classroom doors. Short of a window its the easiest way. I say that because I personally breached a classroom through a cinder block wall. Nothing but flat head ax and haligan for all of it. Classroom doors aren't that hard to get open unless they are intentionally fortified. And again I stand by sawzall or K12 saw cutting the bolt being the easiest quickest method to open the door. sadly the noisiest also. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Nope, try a metal or solid wood door in a metal frame, set in cinderblock or brick with the door frame reinforced to resist bending with crowbars and the like.. Just about every school upgraded to that standard years ago. Fed money was easy to get. The door may even have had a drop brace on the room side. There are only two ways thru those doors. Mechanical breaching (the fire dept gear already mentioned) or explosive breaching with a water charge. The police at Sandy Hook, Santa Fe and iirc, Parkland had exactly the same problem. Classroom doors aren't that hard to get open unless they are intentionally fortified. And again I stand by sawzall or K12 saw cutting the bolt being the easiest quickest method to open the door. sadly the noisiest also. Got to practice at an old elementary school being torn down. The doors opened in and were pretty stout, but the latch mechanism=strike plate design was a weak point. To my surprise, I was able to kick the classroom doors in with 1-3 good kicks. All the doors in every newer school I've seen are built to much higher standards with resistance to being breached in mind. They also open outward. I'm sure one could get in with basic breaching tools, but someone on the other side with a rifle could make the job very difficult. If I had to Monday morning quarterback without seeing the building and where the shooter was, breaching multiple windows and engaging from outside would be a better bet than breaching the classroom door. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 3:05:08 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL. No. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This. There are ways to open pretty much anything that do not need specific tools. If they couldn't figure it out they could have run down the block to the Tractor supply and found an old farmer. He could have figured out a plan to open or tear the door off in about 10 seconds. LOL. No. No what? The opposing rooms door is likely directly across the hall from the ones that needed breaching. They damn sure could have gotten a chain and hook through the other rooms window, hooked over the door through the broken window, and snatched the whole thing out of the wall in less than the hour it took them to do anything.  That's also ignoring the large exterior windows of the rooms with the shooter. If they were serious about gaining entry from the start it could have happened. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 3:17:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...you're recommending unaimed suppressive fire into a room full of dead or alive kiddos? Why not throw a frag or two first, just to properly clear the room? Better to wait outside and let the kids die I suppose. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 3:42:01 AM EDT
[#36]
An honest question to the fire fighters. If I came to you and said kids are being slaughtered and you might get shot but you are the quickest way in this door, would you go? Would you be fired if it all worked out? I am not a cop nor a ff but just wondering.
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Posted: 5/28/2022 3:51:29 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus. Monday morning quarterback commandos. Has anyone been to the school? Was it a fire rated door? Metal frame? Did it open in or out? I'm sure all of GD would have just picked the lock with their EDC items though  That's a load of crap. Guaranteed the motivated fathers detained by the police would have breached the school in under 47-minutes. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 3:59:52 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Unless school security camera footage, or bodycam footage exists shows the police beating on the classroom door and trying to make entry, 87 percent of Arfcom will believe the police were fucking off on their phones waiting for the state swat team to arrive. Should be 100% Uvalde School District Police Chief thought that the shooting was over. He thought everyone inside the classroom had been killed, and that the only person inside who was alive was Ramos. As a result, he ordered the 19 cops outside not to breach the door and instead to wait for tactical squads. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10861681/Texas-cops-reveal-Uvalde-police-no-effort-enter-shooting-classroom.html What logic trail leads to that decision by the School District Police Chief? How could he/she/it possibly know or believe all were dead with no possibility of anyone needing urgent medical care? Someone unwilling to risk more lives? Knowledge of possibly greater threat? Were the 911 calls being relayed properly to the scene? It just seems like an odd explanation. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 4:03:10 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who's gonna pay for that? Where are they gonna put it? When I started 30+ years ago the patrol car trunks were huge, and all we carried in them were a box a flares and a gallon of washer fluid. I could easily put a deer carcass or a recovered bicycle in the trunk with room to spare. Then they started loading the trunks up with stuff, and the trunks got smaller. The swat guys do carry a few things like 40 mm launchers, and they tend to be assigned to SUVs that have a little more storage space. Right now the push is for us to go green and go to hybrid vehicles. I dont see them being able to carry any more gear than the ICE patrol cars. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All patrol folks need rams, shields, and basic breaching tools. To pretend it is 25 years ago and to let people die due to lack of basic tools is ridiculous. Some agencies seem stuck in the past... Fancy is a rescue saw or torch. You don’t usually need fancy though, just enough to have some ability to make it happen. And your SWAT folks should have everything they use available when they are working. Shit locked up in a bearcat is useless when things like this go down. (Which I have seen happen at a school shooting as well...) Who's gonna pay for that? Where are they gonna put it? When I started 30+ years ago the patrol car trunks were huge, and all we carried in them were a box a flares and a gallon of washer fluid. I could easily put a deer carcass or a recovered bicycle in the trunk with room to spare. Then they started loading the trunks up with stuff, and the trunks got smaller. The swat guys do carry a few things like 40 mm launchers, and they tend to be assigned to SUVs that have a little more storage space. Right now the push is for us to go green and go to hybrid vehicles. I dont see them being able to carry any more gear than the ICE patrol cars. A 36" wrecking bar from Harbor Frieght costs $17.99. I have several of them for my vehicles. I also have fire extinguishers in my cars. https://www.harborfreight.com/36-in-gooseneck-wrecking-bar-69037.html |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 5:09:43 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WRONG AGAIN, generally it gets you in anything that accepts a Master. But whatever.. A lot of times I will open a knox box and there are 4-5 keys hanging and a scan card of some sort. What you said with its restrictions is patently false in my neck of the woods Around here the Knox box from the few times I've had to ask the FD for access to one had a single key. They aren't that big that you can keep a whole keyring in them. I'd love to see a school that had a single key for emergency services to get them through all the doors, but from the active shooter training sessions I've done they hand you a ring of keys. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 5:16:42 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No what? The opposing rooms door is likely directly across the hall from the ones that needed breaching. They damn sure could have gotten a chain and hook through the other rooms window, hooked over the door through the broken window, and snatched the whole thing out of the wall in less than the hour it took them to do anything. That's also ignoring the large exterior windows of the rooms with the shooter. If they were serious about gaining entry from the start it could have happened. That's an even more fantastical suggestion. Where's all the stuff to do this coming from and how quickly is it getting on scene Using a patrol car to do this snatching? Not likely. We aren't talking MRAPs or five tons |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 5:26:15 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's an even more fantastical suggestion. Where's all the stuff to do this coming from and how quickly is it getting on scene Using a patrol car to do this snatching? Not likely. We aren't talking MRAPs or five tons Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No what? The opposing rooms door is likely directly across the hall from the ones that needed breaching. They damn sure could have gotten a chain and hook through the other rooms window, hooked over the door through the broken window, and snatched the whole thing out of the wall in less than the hour it took them to do anything. That's also ignoring the large exterior windows of the rooms with the shooter. If they were serious about gaining entry from the start it could have happened. That's an even more fantastical suggestion. Where's all the stuff to do this coming from and how quickly is it getting on scene Using a patrol car to do this snatching? Not likely. We aren't talking MRAPs or five tons Fantastical? You're telling me there wasn't a firetruck on scene? Anyone with a large pickup? Call a fucking tow truck for Christ's sake? They sat on their dick for over an hour. It's not exactly hard to find some chain and a hook. A good steel door in a block wall might be a bit of a bitch to quickly pry open by hand, but it doesn't take much to rip one open with a vehicle. It's called pull breaching and it's an entirely valid method. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 5:47:04 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which gets you in the exterior door. They didnt need to get through the exterior door Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Theres a thing called a Knox box. Firefighters have a key to that box. That box contains keys to any commercial building. Which gets you in the exterior door. They didnt need to get through the exterior door @tc556guy The Knox boxes in my county hold master keys. They open all doors |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 5:55:24 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fantastical? You're telling me there wasn't a firetruck on scene? Anyone with a large pickup? Call a fucking tow truck for Christ's sake? They sat on their dick for over an hour. It's not exactly hard to find some chain and a hook. A good steel door in a block wall might be a bit of a bitch to quickly pry open by hand, but it doesn't take much to rip one open with a vehicle. It's called pull breaching and it's an entirely valid method. Yes, fantastical. In your thinking we'll find yards of chain, enough to stretch from one door, across the hallway, entirely through the classroom across the hall, through that rooms windows, to some theoretical large vehicle outside that side of the building. And then rip the locked classrooms door off the wall. Not that it couldn't happen, but getting everything mentioned on site set up and executed would take longer than the actual incident took. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 5:57:01 AM EDT
[#45]
I have a specific question about door breaching related to the Texas tragedy
PRIMACORD, baby. ‘Cause if breaching is the question, PRIMACORD is the answer. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 6:11:21 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, fantastical. In your thinking we'll find yards of chain, enough to stretch from one door, across the hallway, entirely through the classroom across the hall, through that rooms windows, to some theoretical large vehicle outside that side of the building. And then rip the locked classrooms door off the wall. Not that it couldn't happen, but getting everything mentioned on site set up and executed would take longer than the actual incident took. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fantastical? You're telling me there wasn't a firetruck on scene? Anyone with a large pickup? Call a fucking tow truck for Christ's sake? They sat on their dick for over an hour. It's not exactly hard to find some chain and a hook. A good steel door in a block wall might be a bit of a bitch to quickly pry open by hand, but it doesn't take much to rip one open with a vehicle. It's called pull breaching and it's an entirely valid method. Yes, fantastical. In your thinking we'll find yards of chain, enough to stretch from one door, across the hallway, entirely through the classroom across the hall, through that rooms windows, to some theoretical large vehicle outside that side of the building. And then rip the locked classrooms door off the wall. Not that it couldn't happen, but getting everything mentioned on site set up and executed would take longer than the actual incident took. Hernandez Wrecker is literally a 2 minute drive from the school. What is fantastical about a semi wrecker backing up to the window and spooling out a cable and hook? Hell they could snatch both doors together with the damn thing. There's a Tractor Supply 5 minutes away with all the chain they would need. A regular 1/2 ton pickup could rip a school door off its hinges. Nah, let's stand here listening to children being shot for an hour because the door is locked and any kind of breaching that isn't in our procedures is insanity. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 6:14:10 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hernandez Wrecker is literally a 2 minute drive from the school. What is fantastical about a semi wrecker backing up to the window and spooling out a cable and hook? Hell they could snatch both doors together with the damn thing. There's a Tractor Supply 5 minutes away with all the chain they would need. A regular 1/2 ton pickup could rip a school door off its hinges. Nah, let's stand here listening to children being shot for an hour because the door is locked and any kind of breaching that isn't in our procedures is insanity. I'll stick with my view that getting all that stuff on site, set up and attempted would have taken just as long and wouldn't have brought the incident to a conclusion any faster.. That idea amounts to Monday morning quarterbacking. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 6:18:15 AM EDT
[#48]
I'm also trying to figure out what you think you're going to hook the chain to that you're going to rip the door off it's hinges from outside. Other than the door handle and maybe a small window, school classroom doors don't exactly have attachment points to hook a chain to
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Posted: 5/28/2022 6:34:58 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll stick with my view that getting all that stuff on site, set up and attempted would have taken just as long and wouldn't have brought the incident to a conclusion any faster.. That idea amounts to Monday morning quarterbacking. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hernandez Wrecker is literally a 2 minute drive from the school. What is fantastical about a semi wrecker backing up to the window and spooling out a cable and hook? Hell they could snatch both doors together with the damn thing. There's a Tractor Supply 5 minutes away with all the chain they would need. A regular 1/2 ton pickup could rip a school door off its hinges. Nah, let's stand here listening to children being shot for an hour because the door is locked and any kind of breaching that isn't in our procedures is insanity. I'll stick with my view that getting all that stuff on site, set up and attempted would have taken just as long and wouldn't have brought the incident to a conclusion any faster.. That idea amounts to Monday morning quarterbacking. Now you're just being intentionally obtuse. The wrecker place is 2 minutes away. How long does it take to make a phone call, run jump in a truck, and drive 2 fucking minutes? And set up time? You back up towards a window and pull a cable across a classroom. There have been plenty of pics posted in these topics of the doors. Standard metal school doors with the rectangular window. Plenty big enough to slap a big hook over. It took me 30 seconds to open Google maps, pull up the school, and do a local search for wrecker services. They could have had a door ripped open in 10 minutes if they weren't incompetent jackasses. How the hell do you envision that taking an hour? It's funny, I've always thought of "improvise, adapt, and overcome" as kind of a shtick, but holy fuck apparently making shit work isn't an option for many people. |
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Posted: 5/28/2022 7:35:33 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now you're just being intentionally obtuse. The wrecker place is 2 minutes away. How long does it take to make a phone call, run jump in a truck, and drive 2 fucking minutes? And set up time? You back up towards a window and pull a cable across a classroom. There have been plenty of pics posted in these topics of the doors. Standard metal school doors with the rectangular window. Plenty big enough to slap a big hook over. It took me 30 seconds to open Google maps, pull up the school, and do a local search for wrecker services. They could have had a door ripped open in 10 minutes if they weren't incompetent jackasses. How the hell do you envision that taking an hour? It's funny, I've always thought of "improvise, adapt, and overcome" as kind of a shtick, but holy fuck apparently making shit work isn't an option for many people. While your solution may be viable it is obviously more logical to focus your resources on finding the easiest/fastest means of entry into the classroom by which I mean a key holder. If in fact that ended up being more time consuming than they realized it was still the most reasonable solution in that situation given the information they had at the time. |
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