Quoted:
I like that Zak tool gadget.  I haven't played with one before, but I want one.

Quoted:

I’d have to see that policy in writing to believe it.

Quoted:
I don't know why any of you reply to tc556guy.  It's obvious he's trolling you, whether to get you locked or an outright ban.

I agree with Lug, you could teach the dumbest cop to use a K12 saw and he could get into a room easily.  

There are also some schools that you would be able to get through the wall using a vehicle. Just depends on the land layout.  

My wife's school has a set of ground level windows at an interior ramp between 1st & 2nd floors  that are 20 ft tall. I confirmed today that anyone could drive right up to it and right through it and it would give you full access to any part of the building on foot.

Quoted:


Here's a pic of the back side of the school from the main thread.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/20821/Aftermath_JPG-2398176.JPG

You're telling me one of those SUV's couldnt hit a wall at 20mph and punch through the stuccoed CMU or brick exterior?  Which part of that looks like a hardened facility with 12" thick concrete walls.

Quoted:


Is that a Stihl chainsaw..!? I'm assuming FF, and not LE?

One of the lines from page 1 stands out...we just don't have much trunk space anymore. I started my career with a Crown Vic, and you could easily fit a bike in the trunk, or a pair of dead hookers (three or four if they were little people).

Now I'm driving a Tahoe or a Ford Interceptor SUV, and either way it's got a single tray storage box in the back. So basically a space about 8" tall, 36" wide, and maybe 20" deep to fit everything. Plus some loose space on top for extra stuff.

Flares, AED, tire change kit, first aid kit, stop sticks, rifle, 40mm launcher, tow strap, dog catcher pole, big bag o paperwork, ballistic shield, spare set of hard plates, fingerprint kit, water bottles, chalk, roller wheel, jumper cables, spare ammo, fire extinguisher, rain jacket, traffic vest, crime scene tape, evidence bags and tubes, blanket, and half a dozen other items I'm forgetting.

Pack all of that into a space barely larger than a suitcase, and now tell me you want to add a Halligan tool, breaching charges, and the fucking kitchen sink. Not just to my car, but to about 200,000 other patrol vehicles across the country. All because one time, in one place, a tactical breach and clear might have happened faster if rando Patrol guys had more kit in their car. Maybe.

Knee-jerk reactions are idiotic.

Quoted:
Gotta be honest, some of the other LEO responses here make me happy as hell that I worked in a well paid area, for folks who learned basic lessons decades ago.  And at places where solutions were not always shouted down...

Oh no- breaching tools cost money?!  Big fucking deal- sledges are cheap.  Halligans are very affordable.  Bolt cutters are free with every 10th burglary arrest.  (Seriously- we sourced a lot of breaching tools from old evidence items to be disposed of).  I bought breaching equipment for patrol multiple times at the end of budget years when it was use it or lose it time.

Oh no- how do you breach with shotguns?  Too dangerous, need purpose made ammo, etc....  Not really-  If you train your people up, they will know how to do it.  And regular ammo can be used, though it is not as safe for others and may not be as effective.  If that is all I have, and someone is shooting kids on the other side of the door, I will use what I have available.  And training priorities are a thing, shotgun breaching is not super difficult.  (Note- We did not train patrol on ballistic breaching, but at any given time there was usually 1-3 people available with designated breaching SBS 870’s from SWAT.  And patrol did have other breaching tools as well).

Shields cost money- yep.  But not that much!  Come on!  Spend 1K and you will have a basic ballistic shield capable of stopping all handgun and most rifle rounds.  Rifle shields used to be so heavy that we didn’t bother as they were not worth the weight, but with new armor technology (HDPE) the newer rifle rated shields are much lighter....  actually I just looked it up. A cheap Botach Battle Steel brand shield, 5.56 rated, is only $850.  Come on....

Basically at roll call I would ensure that between 6-10 patrol folks we had, at minimum:
40mm Less Lethal
Ballistic Shield
Door Breach Key
Sledge/Misc breaching tools like bolt cutters
Night vision

If any of this needed to come from the previous shift they handed them off to the incoming.  But we had multiples of everything.  So stuff was constantly coming in and out of patrol cars.  Shields basically transferred cars all day long.  

Nearly everyone had a rifle if they had been there more than a year or so to be trained up on them.

As I was SWAT, I had all the above in my car, plus a breaching 12 gauge, plus flash bangs, a gas bag full of CS and OC hand thrown and 40mm, etc etc etc.  I handed off my shield and 40mm all the time on scenes.

Lately they added helmets to the gear everyone on patrol has.  I tried for years to get those, issued out old surplus stuff we had when I could, but it took recent events for them to get th idea to just buy everyone a helmet.  


Long before all this, SOP was that the patrol Sgts carried a 40mm, a shield, and a door key.  This meant the gear arrived on scene, ready to be handed out.  However it is a better policy to have more than enough gear for everyone and to have it carried by the Officer/Deputy level folks.


I started in the mid-90’s as well.  Things that were specialized SWAT items gradually became standard patrol items.  Having stuff available for when it is actually needed is so much better than having it locked up in a tactical vehicle that you don’t have the keys for.  That might fly if- a really big if- you have a full time, 24 hr SWAT team on duty.  Not many of those around.  

I dealt with agencies that needed their eyes opened for patrol rifles and less lethal weapons.  It took me 2 entire years of work to create a rifle program from zero.  But my second program- LL, was an easy sell.  And when I went to another agency and revamped their programs it was not too difficult to get the needed support.

If your agency can’t afford to purchase basic stuff like sledge hammers, door keys, shields, rifles, less lethal, Tasers, etc, then you need to either drag them kicking and screaming into the current era, or you should go someplace where they use more common sense about what tools should be available.  Seriously- no rifles- walk.  No shields for patrol- walk.  Fuck it.  This is considered very basic stuff these days.

And if you are the type (we all know them) who can point out problems, but refuses to assist in creating solutions, then you kind of deserve to not have what you need.  If your agency is worth a damn you should be able to convince them that having basic breaching tools is worth the cost- but you may need to head that program up and become an instructor or SME.  Embrace it if you get that opportunity.  


Anyhow- Some of these replies!  Who gives a shit if I can throw a dead deer in the trunk- we didn’t ever do that!  We shot the damn things and send a message to the highway dept or gave it to a passing motorist.  My trunk had an AED, a couple boxes of flares, cones, all the stuff listed above, a bunch of armor, and a shitload of other needed stuff.  No room for a bicycle!   Not only did I have a shield but I had a ballistic blanket as well, as did several other patrol Sgts.    At any given time we could come up with multiple shields, multiple rifles, at least 1 or 2 40mm launchers, a couple breaching options, etc.  Just with what was available 100% of the time at any given hour.  This stuff is not specialized.  

And if your SWAT team is basically not of the opinion that everyone should have basics like shields, door keys, etc, that is an institutional problem as well.  Being gate keepers of training, skill sets, and gear is not what it is about.

And if you don’t have SWAT, and you don’t have anything like I am talking about, who the hell is expected to deal with a school shooting?  Or is it “good luck kiddos”?  Seriously- if you have a glaring hole in your agency’s skills and abilities, and it is not addressed, that is just negligent.  The year is 2022.  

Halligan tool- $300 (Amazon)
(Cheaper option- wrecking bar $50)

Sledge $40 (Amazon)

5.56 rated shield $850 (Botach)

Not exactly break the bank type stuff.  I am sorry if your agency is poorly funded and behind the times.  But if they have any BS budget items they have money for basic breaching tools.  Again- seized burglar tools are also known as breaching tools...


At least there are a few others replying who know how well you can break thru a building with just a sledge, who have breaching gear and training for their patrol folks.  My agency was not that tip of the spear by any means, but we were small enough that you could get stuff done, and big enough to see the need.  I always see the last ones to get with the times being the biggest agencies with money problems, and the smallest agencies (as they perpetually have money problems).    


Failing to plan for the possibility of this type of event is not an option.  If you can’t deal with it, start working on fixing that today.

FYI- I never was a designated breacher either.  Just a decently trained team member, instructor in many subjects, and scrounger/procurer of equipment for patrol and tactical needs.  This stuff isn’t that high level.  Actual breachers are experts on things like explosive breaching/etc.

Quoted:
The SWAT commanding officer should have had keys to the school before this shooting event ever took place. Foresight and contingency for future operations is partially what these police officers should be getting paid for. If not, then their services to the community should be considered substandard and in need of updating.

Quoted:

They have a swat team. Stop embarrassing yourself.
https://video-images.vice.com/articles/628faed04f8f30009bb9a5c9/lede/1653584108900-untitled-1440-810-px4.png?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=1200:*

Quoted:

They have a swat team. Stop embarrassing yourself.
https://video-images.vice.com/articles/628faed04f8f30009bb9a5c9/lede/1653584108900-untitled-1440-810-px4.png?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=1200:*

Quoted:
JFC. A 5800# vehicle will breach a whole fucking wall like the fist of a god. The cops would’ve had to take me out to keep me from ramming the bldg. Terrible that no one can think logically in high stress situations.

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JFC. A 5800# vehicle will breach a whole fucking wall like the fist of a god. The cops would’ve had to take me out to keep me from ramming the bldg. Terrible that no one can think logically in high stress situations.

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All of our 870s were converted to less lethals. We're not even allowed to carry anything other than bean bag rounds

Quoted:

Stop embarrassing yourself.

They had a SWAT team.

Uvalde SWAT Team Bragged About Training at Schools on Facebook

Quoted:

Who is the pussy ass cuck that implemented that stupidity?

Quoted:

Because you said it didn't exist; and you continue to delete quotes that show you are wrong.
It's deliberate misinformation you are posting.

Quoted:
JFC. A 5800# vehicle will breach a whole fucking wall like the fist of a god. The cops would’ve had to take me out to keep me from ramming the bldg. Terrible that no one can think logically in high stress situations.

Quoted:


From what I’ve seen, the cops were in the building. Getting into the one specific room the suspect was in was the delay. I doubt driving a patrol car through the wall of a room occupied by victims and potential victims is going to be considered reasonable. Something like a bearcat with a ram, yes. Drive a patrol car through the wall crushing kids, no.

Quoted:
I typed nothing about a patrol car driving into a room full of hostages/ children. Lessons in reading comprehension and critical thinking are a thing. There is a time to think logically and a time to think inside the same old box and playing grab ass while innocents are dying. I hope no one from GD is sent to rescue any of my family.

Quoted:
Gotta be honest, some of the other LEO responses here make me happy as hell that I worked in a well paid area, for folks who learned basic lessons decades ago.  And at places where solutions were not always shouted down...

Oh no- breaching tools cost money?!  Big fucking deal- sledges are cheap.  Halligans are very affordable.  Bolt cutters are free with every 10th burglary arrest.  (Seriously- we sourced a lot of breaching tools from old evidence items to be disposed of).  I bought breaching equipment for patrol multiple times at the end of budget years when it was use it or lose it time.

Oh no- how do you breach with shotguns?  Too dangerous, need purpose made ammo, etc....  Not really-  If you train your people up, they will know how to do it.  And regular ammo can be used, though it is not as safe for others and may not be as effective.  If that is all I have, and someone is shooting kids on the other side of the door, I will use what I have available.  And training priorities are a thing, shotgun breaching is not super difficult.  (Note- We did not train patrol on ballistic breaching, but at any given time there was usually 1-3 people available with designated breaching SBS 870’s from SWAT.  And patrol did have other breaching tools as well).

Shields cost money- yep.  But not that much!  Come on!  Spend 1K and you will have a basic ballistic shield capable of stopping all handgun and most rifle rounds.  Rifle shields used to be so heavy that we didn’t bother as they were not worth the weight, but with new armor technology (HDPE) the newer rifle rated shields are much lighter....  actually I just looked it up. A cheap Botach Battle Steel brand shield, 5.56 rated, is only $850.  Come on....

Basically at roll call I would ensure that between 6-10 patrol folks we had, at minimum:
40mm Less Lethal
Ballistic Shield
Door Breach Key
Sledge/Misc breaching tools like bolt cutters
Night vision

If any of this needed to come from the previous shift they handed them off to the incoming.  But we had multiples of everything.  So stuff was constantly coming in and out of patrol cars.  Shields basically transferred cars all day long.  

Nearly everyone had a rifle if they had been there more than a year or so to be trained up on them.

As I was SWAT, I had all the above in my car, plus a breaching 12 gauge, plus flash bangs, a gas bag full of CS and OC hand thrown and 40mm, etc etc etc.  I handed off my shield and 40mm all the time on scenes.

Lately they added helmets to the gear everyone on patrol has.  I tried for years to get those, issued out old surplus stuff we had when I could, but it took recent events for them to get th idea to just buy everyone a helmet.  


Long before all this, SOP was that the patrol Sgts carried a 40mm, a shield, and a door key.  This meant the gear arrived on scene, ready to be handed out.  However it is a better policy to have more than enough gear for everyone and to have it carried by the Officer/Deputy level folks.


I started in the mid-90’s as well.  Things that were specialized SWAT items gradually became standard patrol items.  Having stuff available for when it is actually needed is so much better than having it locked up in a tactical vehicle that you don’t have the keys for.  That might fly if- a really big if- you have a full time, 24 hr SWAT team on duty.  Not many of those around.  

I dealt with agencies that needed their eyes opened for patrol rifles and less lethal weapons.  It took me 2 entire years of work to create a rifle program from zero.  But my second program- LL, was an easy sell.  And when I went to another agency and revamped their programs it was not too difficult to get the needed support.

If your agency can’t afford to purchase basic stuff like sledge hammers, door keys, shields, rifles, less lethal, Tasers, etc, then you need to either drag them kicking and screaming into the current era, or you should go someplace where they use more common sense about what tools should be available.  Seriously- no rifles- walk.  No shields for patrol- walk.  Fuck it.  This is considered very basic stuff these days.

And if you are the type (we all know them) who can point out problems, but refuses to assist in creating solutions, then you kind of deserve to not have what you need.  If your agency is worth a damn you should be able to convince them that having basic breaching tools is worth the cost- but you may need to head that program up and become an instructor or SME.  Embrace it if you get that opportunity.  


Anyhow- Some of these replies!  Who gives a shit if I can throw a dead deer in the trunk- we didn’t ever do that!  We shot the damn things and send a message to the highway dept or gave it to a passing motorist.  My trunk had an AED, a couple boxes of flares, cones, all the stuff listed above, a bunch of armor, and a shitload of other needed stuff.  No room for a bicycle!   Not only did I have a shield but I had a ballistic blanket as well, as did several other patrol Sgts.    At any given time we could come up with multiple shields, multiple rifles, at least 1 or 2 40mm launchers, a couple breaching options, etc.  Just with what was available 100% of the time at any given hour.  This stuff is not specialized.  

And if your SWAT team is basically not of the opinion that everyone should have basics like shields, door keys, etc, that is an institutional problem as well.  Being gate keepers of training, skill sets, and gear is not what it is about.

And if you don’t have SWAT, and you don’t have anything like I am talking about, who the hell is expected to deal with a school shooting?  Or is it “good luck kiddos”?  Seriously- if you have a glaring hole in your agency’s skills and abilities, and it is not addressed, that is just negligent.  The year is 2022.  

Halligan tool- $300 (Amazon)
(Cheaper option- wrecking bar $50)

Sledge $40 (Amazon)

5.56 rated shield $850 (Botach)

Not exactly break the bank type stuff.  I am sorry if your agency is poorly funded and behind the times.  But if they have any BS budget items they have money for basic breaching tools.  Again- seized burglar tools are also known as breaching tools...


At least there are a few others replying who know how well you can break thru a building with just a sledge, who have breaching gear and training for their patrol folks.  My agency was not that tip of the spear by any means, but we were small enough that you could get stuff done, and big enough to see the need.  I always see the last ones to get with the times being the biggest agencies with money problems, and the smallest agencies (as they perpetually have money problems).    


Failing to plan for the possibility of this type of event is not an option.  If you can’t deal with it, start working on fixing that today.

FYI- I never was a designated breacher either.  Just a decently trained team member, instructor in many subjects, and scrounger/procurer of equipment for patrol and tactical needs.  This stuff isn’t that high level.  Actual breachers are experts on things like explosive breaching/etc.

Quoted:

I've lived in the South almost 65 years and only storm doors/screen doors "open out".

Quoted:
I typed nothing about a patrol car driving into a room full of hostages/ children. Lessons in reading comprehension and critical thinking are a thing. There is a time to think logically and a time to think inside the same old box and playing grab ass while innocents are dying. I hope no one from GD is sent to rescue any of my family.

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All of patrol is taught ballistic breaching here. I've screamed at the top of my lungs about the need for shields and manual breaching gear, and have finally gotten some admin on board. But the almighty dollar comes in to play.

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Fail.

Elementary Kids came out 4ft tall windows by themselves fleeing.

If someone wanted in the school they could have been inside within 60 seconds.

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Exactly. How hard would it be to find someone like this to get a key from?

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Would not need to breach if they had planned accordingly PRIOR to this event.  Our area, all schools, apartment complexes, .gov buildings etc. have Knox Boxes where police and fire can gain entry.

https://www.knoxbox.com/

Quoted:

I’ve never seen an exterior school door open inwards.

Classroom doors do so they don’t block the hallway.

Quoted:


Do you ever respond to a conversation without belligerence?

You have a truck and tools.  It goes to scenes.  That in no way means it is available to the officer(s) responding to an active shooter who encounters a locked door.  Are you taking it inside to him and showing him how to use it?  Are you using it with a shooter on the other side?  If so, I'd really like to see that policy.  Is the officer retreating outside to track down the fire truck and ask to borrow a sawzall?

There is no circumstance based in reality where a cop is going to use a sawzall to cut a door lock while an active shooter is on the other side.  Zero.  None.

If you believe there is, great.  Doesn't matter to me.  I'm just some internet troll.

Quoted:
Jesus. Monday morning quarterback commandos.

Has anyone been to the school? Was it a fire rated door? Metal frame? Did it open in or out?

I'm sure all of GD would have just picked the lock with their EDC items though

Quoted:

Border patrol guy with no special equipment got in just fine.   Keep defending shameful cops

Quoted:
Dear breaching sme's, a real question:

With modern commercial building construction, are all interior walls firewalls ?
Any way to go up thru interior ceiling panels and drop down on other side of interior walls ?
Just curious, as shorter ultra lightweight extension ladders could be a tool.

Thanks

Quoted:


Yep.

Quoted:

They have a swat team. Stop embarrassing yourself.
https://video-images.vice.com/articles/628faed04f8f30009bb9a5c9/lede/1653584108900-untitled-1440-810-px4.png?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=1200:*

Quoted:


Do you ever respond to a conversation without belligerence?

You have a truck and tools.  It goes to scenes.  That in no way means it is available to the officer(s) responding to an active shooter who encounters a locked door.  Are you taking it inside to him and showing him how to use it?  Are you using it with a shooter on the other side?  If so, I’d really like to see that policy.  Is the officer retreating outside to track down the fire truck and ask to borrow a sawzall?

There is no circumstance based in reality where a cop is going to use a sawzall to cut a door lock while an active shooter is on the other side.  Zero.  None.

If you believe there is, great.  Doesn’t matter to me.  I’m just some internet troll.

Quoted:
You don't listen.  You didn't read the thread.  You have no concept at all how active shooter response worked when coordinated with a unified command between FD and PD.

I will not break out MS Paint for you.  

But yea we could have a cop inside with a K12 or sawzall by 2nd or 3rd kill team.  

You are hyper focus on shit you want to focus on rather than solutions. That is very poor problem solving.