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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:14:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Back to my question. What good does a well intentioned guy who's letting his emotions get the best of him going to do by going and becoming a dead citizen. I get it that people want to "do something" in these scenarios. But almost all of the recommendations in these threads aren't going to work. You cant drive an SUV down a school hallway to get at the classroom door. You aren't going to batter a wall down with a sledgehammer. And so on and so on. People are throwing a bunch of stuff out there that they think would work. Good for them. But its not going to work, and they'd get themselves killed for nothing to show for it Does nobody think outside the box?? You don't have to get the SUV inside the building if the classroom is on an exterior wall. And... YES, you can batter down a wall with a sledge. My guys have trained on it. We can make a man sized opening in a couple minutes. If my memory serves me correctly they did exactly that to extract those trapped in the bathrooms at Pulse night club. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:15:09 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Being a school classroom door, it was probably the cheapest shit they could find Nope, try a metal or solid wood door in a metal frame, set in cinderblock or brick with the door frame reinforced to resist bending with crowbars and the like.. Just about every school upgraded to that standard years ago. Fed money was easy to get. The door may even have had a drop brace on the room side. There are only two ways thru those doors. Mechanical breaching (the fire dept gear already mentioned) or explosive breaching with a water charge. Shotgun breaching is not done with regular ammo since there are people inside and the 5.56 is worthless for breaching. The police at Sandy Hook, Santa Fe and iirc, Parkland had exactly the same problem. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:15:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm trying to hold my outrage until accurate information is released but the Uvalde PD is doing themselves no favors by letting this issue swirl around full of conflicting "facts." I don't know the real story. I am hoping to know sometime soon. What I have seen does not look good. But fact are hard to come by so far. There is a good chance they have just started interviewing those officers tonight. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:17:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I typed in some capital letters and hurt your feels. Sorry. I am not angry. You are simply wrong. You have no concept of how these things work, IT APPEARS. Maybe you are holding back, or maybe you are just trolling. But with what you have said, you don't have the slightest clue. Its a very fluid situation. There are multiple teams that go inside. Fire, in my city, is dispatched and responds WITH police. We do not work with kill teams, but can give them access to tools. We do work in the RTF teams, stopping the bleed and extracting. There is a lot more but why waste the time explaining. You are already not grasping the simplest of what could go on. Think what you want. Your solution is absurd. I really have no reason to explain my credentials to you. Enjoy your rant. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:18:33 PM EDT
[#5]
How about the cuffed lady who slipped them, jumped the fence, went into the school and got both of her kids out........while the police watched. edit WSJ interview
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:19:54 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Patton would rather that the other guy die. What does you dying accomplish except creating another victim Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would rather die than do nothing. Patton would rather that the other guy die. What does you dying accomplish except creating another victim If the doors on our classrooms are any indication I could get it open for the police and possibly not die. Why not try? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:20:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about the cuffed lady who slipped them, jumped the fence, went into the school and got both of her kids out........while the police watched. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:20:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope, try a metal or solid wood door in a metal frame, set in cinderblock or brick with the door frame reinforced to resist bending with crowbars and the like.. Just about every school upgraded to that standard years ago. Fed money was easy to get. The door may even have had a drop brace on the room side. There are only two ways thru those doors. Mechanical breaching (the fire dept gear already mentioned) or explosive breaching with a water charge. The police at Sandy Hook, Santa Fe and iirc, Parkland had exactly the same problem. Classroom doors aren't that hard to get open unless they are intentionally fortified. And again I stand by sawzall or K12 saw cutting the bolt being the easiest quickest method to open the door. sadly the noisiest also. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:23:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: There used to be a TV show where men competed at various "tactical stuff" and one of them was breaching doors by mule kicking, using a sledge and, I think, a ram. It was a show. Feel free to mule kick a door while someone is shooting back through it. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:23:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Think what you want. Your solution is absurd. I really have no reason to explain my credentials to you. Enjoy your rant. Your explanation puts you in the "I don't know shit" category. You honestly do not know what you are talking about and you are taking swings at a pinata. It is realistic, in my city, for the 2nd or 3rd kill team entering to potentially have a sawzall or K12 with them. It would absolutely be available from the first fire engine on scene. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:25:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is a huge problem. When they allow multiple stories to swirl. And the current "OFFICIAL" story is different that "those on the inside here" are reporting, that smells of bullshit. I don't know the real story. I am hoping to know sometime soon. What I have seen does not look good. But fact are hard to come by so far. There is a good chance they have just started interviewing those officers tonight. No, I’m pretty sure they were doing some kind of critical incident investigation immediately. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:26:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was a show. Feel free to mule kick a door while someone is shooting back through it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There used to be a TV show where men competed at various "tactical stuff" and one of them was breaching doors by mule kicking, using a sledge and, I think, a ram. It was a show. Feel free to mule kick a door while someone is shooting back through it. Last year my crew mule kicked doors of an entire floor of a huge appartment building that was ON FIRE YO. Lightning strike lit off the attic and shorted the fire alarm. Nobody was awake we had to roust people. I was scared to death I was gonna get shot. Mule kicking more than about 4-5 doors is exhausting. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:27:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not on their belt. Not available when responding to an active shooter. If they have time to go out to a fire truck then its probably not an active shooter. And relax, you get way too angry. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:27:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, I'm pretty sure they were doing some kind of critical incident investigation immediately. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is a huge problem. When they allow multiple stories to swirl. And the current "OFFICIAL" story is different that "those on the inside here" are reporting, that smells of bullshit. I don't know the real story. I am hoping to know sometime soon. What I have seen does not look good. But fact are hard to come by so far. There is a good chance they have just started interviewing those officers tonight. No, I'm pretty sure they were doing some kind of critical incident investigation immediately. I have no idea what the standard is in Uvalde. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:28:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope, try a metal or solid wood door in a metal frame, set in cinderblock or brick with the door frame reinforced to resist bending with crowbars and the like.. Just about every school upgraded to that standard years ago. Fed money was easy to get. The door may even have had a drop brace on the room side. There are only two ways thru those doors. Mechanical breaching (the fire dept gear already mentioned) or explosive breaching with a water charge. Shotgun breaching is not done with regular ammo since there are people inside and the 5.56 is worthless for breaching. The police at Sandy Hook, Santa Fe and iirc, Parkland had exactly the same problem. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Being a school classroom door, it was probably the cheapest shit they could find Nope, try a metal or solid wood door in a metal frame, set in cinderblock or brick with the door frame reinforced to resist bending with crowbars and the like.. Just about every school upgraded to that standard years ago. Fed money was easy to get. The door may even have had a drop brace on the room side. There are only two ways thru those doors. Mechanical breaching (the fire dept gear already mentioned) or explosive breaching with a water charge. Shotgun breaching is not done with regular ammo since there are people inside and the 5.56 is worthless for breaching. The police at Sandy Hook, Santa Fe and iirc, Parkland had exactly the same problem. How far does the bracing go into the cinderblock wall? I can smash the fuck out of a cinderblock with each swing. They aren't solid. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:28:35 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not sure why every school can't have a set of keys available in the main office. What would it cost a few hundred bucks a school to get some keys made? Don't have to track down anybody if first responders know where there will be a full set of keys. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Come on, man! It's a school, during school hours. Principals, janitors, administrators... all have master keys. I'm not sure why every school can't have a set of keys available in the main office. What would it cost a few hundred bucks a school to get some keys made? Don't have to track down anybody if first responders know where there will be a full set of keys. I’m the guy in the school who was hired primarily to stop a school shooter. If you need a master key, find where my body lays, get them from my left side pocket. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:29:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They tore down a school and rebuilt on site just a few years ago. I personally opened a few classroom doors. Short of a window its the easiest way. I say that because I personally breached a classroom through a cinder block wall. Nothing but flat head ax and haligan for all of it. Classroom doors aren't that hard to get open unless they are intentionally fortified. And again I stand by sawzall or K12 saw cutting the bolt being the easiest quickest method to open the door. sadly the noisiest also. I’m absolutely certain the fire guys have plenty of tools to open any hard door on a campus, but when you add up the minutes needed to get the tool and then use it, it’s plenty of time for a crazy to do his evil. The interesting question is how did the actual door get opened, if it turns out the barricade story is true? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:30:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How far does the bracing go into the cinderblock wall? I can smash the fuck out of a cinderblock with each swing. They aren't solid. And I respect your passion. But you are not opening any of those locked classroom doors without tools. Just being realistic. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:30:36 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was a show. Feel free to mule kick a door while someone is shooting back through it. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:30:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: May have been. A lot of places will not let officers give legal statements until 24 hours at least have passed. I have no idea what the standard is in Uvalde. I’d have to see that policy in writing to believe it. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:31:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm absolutely certain the fire guys have plenty of tools to open any hard door on a campus, but when you add up the minutes needed to get the tool and then use it, it's plenty of time for a crazy to do his evil. The interesting question is how did the actual door get opened, if it turns out the barricade story is true? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:32:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd have to see that policy in writing to believe it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: May have been. A lot of places will not let officers give legal statements until 24 hours at least have passed. I have no idea what the standard is in Uvalde. I'd have to see that policy in writing to believe it. ETA. Outta be easy to find. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:34:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those are. Each cinder block will be filled mostly with concrete. And I respect your passion. But you are not opening any of those locked classroom doors without tools. Just being realistic. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How far does the bracing go into the cinderblock wall? I can smash the fuck out of a cinderblock with each swing. They aren't solid. And I respect your passion. But you are not opening any of those locked classroom doors without tools. Just being realistic. How many courses around each door are filled with concrete? The whole wall isn't. I'd like to know. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:34:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can only speak for my city. Interaction would be darn near seamless. If the cops needed a tool they would have it within seconds. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm absolutely certain the fire guys have plenty of tools to open any hard door on a campus, but when you add up the minutes needed to get the tool and then use it, it's plenty of time for a crazy to do his evil. The interesting question is how did the actual door get opened, if it turns out the barricade story is true? Same where I work, if I need a tool to open a door I would be given one |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:36:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've lived in the South almost 65 years and only storm doors/screen doors "open out". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is it an inward or outward door? Up north, exterior doors open in and down here open out. What was the class room door? I've lived in the South almost 65 years and only storm doors/screen doors "open out". Nothing really opens out as the hinges are either exposed or have to be configured differently. I can’t imagine having another school incident where officers weren’t fighting to get in and waste that asshole. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:36:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: May have been. A lot of places will not let officers give legal statements until 24 hours at least have passed. I have no idea what the standard is in Uvalde. Keep in mind, Uvalde PD is not doing this investigation. Neither is the county. They just don't have the resources to do it. This is either going to be DPS or Fed and yes, they will place gag orders on everyone involved. If it's the Fed it'll be well over a year before anyone gets basic facts on this. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:39:04 PM EDT
[#27]
This conundrum reminds me of the first saw movie. A hack saw to cut through a hardened steel chain or through his leg.
Or the fucking sewer pipe that would take 10 minutes tops with an decent hacksaw blade......fuck. Reminds me of how fucking outrageously stupid the average person is...... How did the border patrol breach the unbreachable door? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:41:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many courses around each door are filled with concrete? The whole wall isn't. I'd like to know. Sample of one school |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:42:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This conundrum reminds me of the first saw movie. A hack saw to cut through a hardened steel chain or through his leg. Tracked a key down, finally. Or the fucking sewer pipe that would take 10 minutes tops with an decent hacksaw blade......fuck. Reminds me of how fucking outrageously stupid the average person is...... How did the border patrol breach the unbreachable door? Found a key |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:43:37 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This conundrum reminds me of the first saw movie. A hack saw to cut through a hardened steel chain or through his leg. Or the fucking sewer pipe that would take 10 minutes tops with an decent hacksaw blade......fuck. Reminds me of how fucking outrageously stupid the average person is...... How did the border patrol breach the unbreachable door? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:45:05 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Come on, man! It's a school, during school hours. Principals, janitors, administrators... all have master keys. Exactly. How hard would it be to find someone like this to get a key from? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:45:21 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Keep in mind, Uvalde PD is not doing this investigation. Neither is the county. They just don't have the resources to do it. This is either going to be DPS or Fed and yes, they will place gag orders on everyone involved. If it's the Fed it'll be well over a year before anyone gets basic facts on this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: May have been. A lot of places will not let officers give legal statements until 24 hours at least have passed. I have no idea what the standard is in Uvalde. Keep in mind, Uvalde PD is not doing this investigation. Neither is the county. They just don't have the resources to do it. This is either going to be DPS or Fed and yes, they will place gag orders on everyone involved. If it's the Fed it'll be well over a year before anyone gets basic facts on this. Thought I heard the Rangers are in charge of the investigation. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:46:04 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thought I heard the Rangers are in charge of the investigation. That's DPS. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:46:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exactly. How hard would it be to find someone like this to get a key from? Depends. How far did they run when the shooting started? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:47:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's DPS. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thought I heard the Rangers are in charge of the investigation. That's DPS.  I normally don't equate them with the "normal" DPS guys. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:47:54 PM EDT
[#36]
A guy in the other thread says he has video of the whole thing and I think he is implying it portrays the local police in a better light
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:52:59 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A guy in the other thread says he has video of the whole thing and I think he is implying it portrays the local police in a better light Only thing is that is not what the DPS said. I don't have an answer. I am rooting for the pd to have done the right thing. I will hold out for hard evidence either way. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:53:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once again, fire departments will not respond into an active scene It’s probably different where you are… What they are referring to is more rescue task force. If you have the shooter cornered, (hot zone) Fire /EMS will go with armed pd escort into the warm zone, where the shooter has injured and moved on. They will then triage / treat and evac outside to a secure area normally made with walls of big fire trucks and armed men securing that area. From medium to metro sized cities are taking that approach now. As far as using them to breach a door with a shooter on the other side like in this case, it’s not going to happen where I am, and I don’t know anyone doing it. Would a fireman be brave enough to risk it? Absolutely. But nobody would let him. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:57:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My experience for breaching a cinderblock wall to a classroom is it is one cinderblock thick. They were filled with concrete. Start at the bottom and work your way up is easiest. Sample of one school Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How many courses around each door are filled with concrete? The whole wall isn't. I'd like to know. Sample of one school So you broke the second course from the door, right. If the first course is concrete filled it would be rebar reinforced. Am I understanding you? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:00:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you broke the second course from the door, right. If the first course is concrete filled it would be rebar reinforced. Am I understanding you? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: How many courses around each door are filled with concrete? The whole wall isn't. I'd like to know. Sample of one school So you broke the second course from the door, right. If the first course is concrete filled it would be rebar reinforced. Am I understanding you? It was not easy, it was not quick. And it was exhausting. You start from the bottom cause once you break a bottom one free the ones above fall out easier. I was not the only one who worked on it. We did it in pairs. It is not realistic to breach that wall, although it can be done. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:01:12 PM EDT
[#41]
The SWAT commanding officer should have had keys to the school before this shooting event ever took place. Foresight and contingency for future operations is partially what these police officers should be getting paid for. If not, then their services to the community should be considered substandard and in need of updating.
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:16:50 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are not mule kicking a school door. (But it works awesome on typical residences.) A sledge does a lot, a breaching key is great, a halligan, basically anything can break glass and tear out the plastic layers if it is laminated, or safely clear out the remaining glass if not. But as mentioned a patrol car thru the door works wonders. As does just grabbing the door when someone is exiting. Hell in a pinch a firearm will start a breach if you have to. Good gloves are important to always have on you... I carried a breaching 12 Gauge, a breaching key, a halligan tool, a sledge, and a few other things in my patrol ride. It is called basic preparedness. Some of my coworkers had zero idea how to effectively use any of them.... And with some folks you can train, give them the tools, and tell them what to do, and when things happen they just go blank and it all goes out the window. Guys stacking on the school when the should enter. Guys forgetting to grab their rifle from the patrol car. Someone wanting to set up a fucking perimeter like it is 1990.... etc. (Those are all real examples on school shootings I responded to). People who are mentally unprepared will have trouble, while those who seriously considered it might make mistakes but keep pushing on and finish the mission. Training and mind set is what would have saved lives you are spot on. Protect and Serve. I your mind hasn't already went though it your body won't do it. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:21:00 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The SWAT commanding officer should have had keys to the school before this shooting event ever took place. Foresight and contingency for future operations is partially what these police officers should be getting paid for. If not, then their services to the community should be considered substandard and in need of updating. Very few school districts are going to be handing out keys to anyone. Esp if said keys go offsite. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:22:09 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/17187/D2309091-6209-468A-BB4B-747AC2A3ED15-239-2398245.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/17187/E581CFD2-E1E0-4847-9DA0-2FAF674AA299-239-2398247.JPG I know this is just an example someone posted, but I would like to know why everyone assumes that the door is the only point of entry? Hurricane glass would make the difference where I am, but someone posted a kid or kids exited a window, so I don’t know. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:22:53 PM EDT
[#45]
I have seen a small man do big things with a Burke bar. A 5 ft long pry bar with a forged curved foot can fuck up a hell of a lot riki tik. Tiltwall dudes use them to bump around concrete panels on slabs. Gotta figure any door or masonry framing will yield to a well placed pry and a dozen dudes leaning on it. Cheap and portable tool for a truck, not practical in a squad sedan. Maybe not. I only trained in vehicle extrication. I would be handy there too.
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:23:37 PM EDT
[#46]
Rams only work on inward opening doors. Most officers are not trained on breaching at all. If there are breaching tools available in a small department they are usually in the supervisors car and it’s maybe bolt cutters, a ram and a halligan tool.
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:24:26 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s probably different where you are… What they are referring to is more rescue task force. If you have the shooter cornered, (hot zone) Fire /EMS will go with armed pd escort into the warm zone, where the shooter has injured and moved on. They will then triage / treat and evac outside to a secure area normally made with walls of big fire trucks and armed men securing that area. From medium to metro sized cities are taking that approach now. As far as using them to breach a door with a shooter on the other side like in this case, it’s not going to happen where I am, and I don’t know anyone doing it. Would a fireman be brave enough to risk it? Absolutely. But nobody would let him. All this is a moot point since I believe Uvalde relys on a hybrid paid/volly fire dept. No one is getting there anytime soon. The nearest town with another dept is Castroville which is also volly. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:25:16 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about the cuffed lady who slipped them, jumped the fence, went into the school and got both of her kids out........while the police watched. edit WSJ interview Her kids were in a classroom behind friendly lines? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:26:11 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Vehicles make great breaching tools...... Crown Vics > Doors |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 10:31:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Nevermind
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